Hi, I write the occasional article on RPGs, and on the obsidian portal blog they are planning a regular set of articles on RPGs called 'what's so great about X'. I was going to write one for MSH, but thinking about it I'm not sure I am the best person. The way we play is heavily house ruled, and I only ever played one version of the game. Does any one else out there want to write it? 700 words in a set format are required... Let me know if your interested. If no one gets back to me I will write it myself

MSH is possibly the simplest (yet still functional) Table-Top RPG of it's time... Any Players with a 4th Grade Education could adapt any fantasy character (or story) into it...


With that simple functionality also came easy modifications and house-rules so that unusual situations could be handled...

So Simplicity and Functionality...


Also, MSH (and other Table-Top RPGs) have a nostalgia to them... These games came about before video games that corrupted our raw imaginations and every idea and story plot was patented to make Media Money...

So many people stayed up late, in deep thought, writing and drawing their 'OWN' creations to share with friends on the MSH format...

MSH provided a basic structure to many People's written Characters and story plots...




In today's age of Google and Youtube, most people simply don't think like they used to, and most aren't on that 'Same Sheet of Music' like they used to be ....

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MSH is possibly the simplest (yet still
> functional) Table-Top RPG of it's time... Any
> Players with a 4th Grade Education could adapt any
> fantasy character (or story) into it...
>
>
> With that simple functionality also came easy
> modifications and house-rules so that unusual
> situations could be handled...
>
> So Simplicity and Functionality...
>
>
> Also, MSH (and other Table-Top RPGs) have a
> nostalgia to them... These games came about before
> video games that corrupted our raw imaginations
> and every idea and story plot was patented to make
> Media Money...
>
> So many people stayed up late, in deep thought,
> writing and drawing their 'OWN' creations to share
> with friends on the MSH format...
>
> MSH provided a basic structure to many People's
> written Characters and story plots...
>
>
>
>
> In today's age of Google and Youtube, most people
> simply don't think like they used to, and most
> aren't on that 'Same Sheet of Music' like they
> used to be ....


Hi Tanker - does this mean you want to write the article, or just want some input on whatever i write? either way is fine

Anyway. I agree with the first half of what you say - but not the second. Also getting a table top RPG blog that actively promotes the hobby and whose business model is dependent on the health of the hobby to publish an article that says 'video games corrupted our raw imagination' may be a tough sell; especially when it fly's in the face of the evidence most often quoted about the state of the hobby.

D&D is the classic barometer of the industry and there are more D&D units being sold, at a greater profit margin, than ever before in the history of the industry (allegedly ). Added to that the hugely positive impact of kickstarter on the independent publishing scene , not to mention success of things like Will Wheaton's tabeltop Vlog as well. I get the impression the hobby is doing better than it ever has. which would indicate peoples imaginations are alive and well

Sales figures and quality don't always overlap. In terms of contemporary cultural influence the stupefied Hasbro version of role playing has never been less relevant.

MSH RPG captures the spirit and ethos of the comic books it emulates and combines that successful and probably unrepeatable achievement with an absolutely simple yet robust system which allows universal gaming - literally anything is possible with a simple roll, backed up by surprisingly detailed consequences mapped out within the system.

With or without the Karma rule the game system feeds intuitive ways of thinking and acting, mapping heroic actions to game mechanics in a way that has rarely been achieved.

There is also a welcome absence of absurd, arbitrary or intrusive rules that jar with real life experience. Quite the opposite; MSHRPG becomes more convincing and more engaging the more real life adventures a player has had.

Flying Tiger Comics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sales figures and quality don't always overlap. In
> terms of contemporary cultural influence the
> stupefied Hasbro version of role playing has
> never been less relevant.
>
> MSHRPG captures the spirit and ethos of the
> comic books it emulates and combines that
> successful and probably unrepeatable achievement
> with an absolutely simple yet robust system which
> allows universal gaming - literally anything is
> possible with a simple roll, backed up by
> surprisingly detailed consequences mapped out
> within the system.
>
> With or without the Karma rule the game system
> feeds intuitive ways of thinking and acting,
> mapping heroic actions to game mechanics in a way
> that has rarely been achieved.
>
> There is also a welcome absence of absurd,
> arbitrary or intrusive rules that jar with real
> life experience. Quite the opposite; MSHRPG
> becomes more convincing and more engaging the more
> real life adventures a player has had.

Your right, sales and and quality are not always the same as Justin Beiber, One Direction and a host of other things readily proves (and i never claimed they were, i described D&D as an industry barometer).

But on the subject of quality - i would say that, as a generalization, the modern RPGs, and board games i have played recently are far better games in terms of print quality, rule systems and originality (and almost any other yard stick you care to mention). Once again sticking with D&D (because 90% of gamers play that and so we have a shared language to use) 5e is a far better role playing game than 4th, and I would say its better than the previous editions as well. primarily the new advantage/disadvantage rules, and the streamlined magic system (spells can be cast at increased difficulty levels to expand their effects) are the two major improvements I would point to.

I have a question for you Flying Tiger - how often to do you play (or even just purchase and read) new RPG systems? What about watching play tests on line?

As for cultural significance - how do you measure that? When do you measure that? did you know D&D was going to be culturally significant in 1974? How about in '75 or '76? so by the same token how do you know what the 'cultural significance' of the tabletop Dragon Age blog will be? And if the resurgent popularity of 5e is true as reported, what is the cultural significance of that? how long will you have to wait to measure its impact?

Sorry I am being tetchy, but the attitudes of 'it was better in my day' has, in my experience, indicated the person speaking has not actually tried anything new in a long while. If i am mistaken i am sorry.

Lastly are you offering to write the article, or are you seeking to have your ideas added to it? Either way is fine

Whats so great about the MSH is the fact it has super heroness baked into every facet of the game. From the bright colors of the table to names given to each rank. Many games have good settings and good rules but at some point the rules, especially during character creation, become math and numbers and its not till you start playing that the setting comes back into your mind.

Also its one of the few (but certainly not the only) games where randomness is built right into character creation, so you never know what you are going to get when you fire up the dice to make Captain Who The @#$%& Knows for the millionth time. And unlike other games with random character creation its really hard to roll a shitty character that won't be any fun to play.

What is so great about MSH?

I can play a over powered cosmic hero or god from beyond the stars.

I can play a low level street hero or ninja and mix it up with thugs and The Yellow Claw.

I can be a great forgotten warrior or sorcerer from before the cataclysm and fight the foul forces of Thoth-Amon or Thulsa Doom, or even learn great mystic secrets at the feet of Zhered-Na.

I could even pilot a great robotic mech and throw down with Godzilla around the world in the Pacific.

I may even become a werewolf in the old country and have a midnight stand off with Count Dracula over which one of us gets the pretty girl trapped between us as she shivers in fear.

In short, I could fashion my character to be what I wish and not have my creative desires chained to only one theme.

Not sure this article will get published now.

Obsidian portal has started to get very very strict on the community forums:

• complain about a technical bug not being addressed? you are banned from the forum.
• Ask for an update on the Kick starter goals that you contributed to? you are banned from the forum.
• Ask for the identity of the new owners/managers beyond the name 'kaleidoscope'? you are banned from the forum.
• Complain about this policy on the public forum and your premium pay account is canceled. (I am at this stage)

keep asking about what the heck is going on on the public forums (they do not reply to private emails) and you are threatened with complete expulsion from the OP web site (so far we think only one person has had this done, but we have lost all contact with him so are not sure what really happened. Another user has been informed that this will be happening to them and they are hurriedly saving all their campaign content)

It's a very sad state of affairs. I have asked the OP blogging community to not publish any of my already written articles until this is resolved to my satisfaction (unlikely!) . I have had one email telling me my premium account is suspended for 'circumventing moderation and denigrating OP and it's staff' and the money has/will be refunded. I also intend to keep complaining in private and public and so will, I assume, soon be kicked off the site completely

The forum rules have been changed several times over the last few days and the closest thing we have had to an explanation is the following

OPsupport feedback

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure this article will get published now.
>
> Obsidian portal has started to get very very
> strict on the community forums:
>
>

>
• complain about a technical bug not being
  > addressed? you are banned from the forum.
  >
• Ask for an update on the Kick starter goals
  > that you contributed to? you are banned from the
  > forum.
  >
• Ask for the identity of the new
  > owners/managers beyond the name 'kaleidoscope'?
  > you are banned from the forum.
  >
• Complain about this policy on the public forum
  > and your premium pay account is canceled. (I am
  > at this stage)
  >

>
> keep asking about what the heck is going on on the
> public forums (they do not reply to private
> emails) and you are threatened with complete
> expulsion from the OP web site (so far we think
> only one person has had this done, but we have
> lost all contact with him so are not sure what
> really happened. Another user has been informed
> that this will be happening to them and they are
> hurriedly saving all their campaign content)
>
> It's a very sad state of affairs. I have asked
> the OP blogging community to not publish any of my
> already written articles until this is resolved to
> my satisfaction (unlikely!) . I have had one email
> telling me my premium account is suspended for
> 'circumventing moderation and denigrating OP and
> it's staff' and the money has/will be refunded. I
> also intend to keep complaining in private and
> public and so will, I assume, soon be kicked off
> the site completely
>
> The forum rules have been changed several times
> over the last few days and the closest thing we
> have had to an explanation is the following
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just ....wow. Prime examples not to add to their Kickstarter.
If I had anything on there that I absolutely felt that I wanted to keep, I think I would have it copyrighted or something.

Such a shame. Its still a great tool, even with the failed kick starter objectives. With little humility and honesty they could have (could still?) explain what went wrong and ask for more time to fix things: Move forward from a bad situation. But it looks the plan is to bury the past and try and pretend it didn't happen worst thing is they may be right, only a fraction of users use the public forums. If they can survive the negative impact and few months of low traffic, they may well succeed.

What make MSH great?
yes the simplicity, but also the source genre!!
Marvel!!

Should it be from the days of yore to the modern day of 2016, it Marvel!!
Everyone played at cowboys and Indians, Army men, fireman, secret Agent and yes, the magic user,/fighter/cleric fighting monster, but being a superhero was awesome!! IS awesome!!

As far as the gaming system, simplicity at it best as previously stated.
More simpler then Champions! Heroes! Villains and Vigilante!.Gurps! Definitely more easier then DC Heroes at the time of release!
It was just easy for anyone to follow,

Over the years, nostalgia had kicked in, will kick in in many who played before. And while the general sale marketing was to be a hero, it evolved into that you can be the Villain, the Vigilante. It has an adaptability to take almost any material source, slap some stats and you're good to go!!

It encouraged your imagination without over stressing the details and rules. It simple garnered fun and excitement.

And if you think I am wrong, then take a look around and you have your evidence, your proof what this game has inspired.

and "What's so great about MSH?"

It's great if you like superheroes. In this game, you can play them. The is a randomness of actions taken and the success of your choices are based on your hero's ability ratings. Also, the game forces you to respect what it takes to be a hero. Be warned, with great power also comes great responsibility​...otherwise you get a negative karma hit.

Unliked the comics, the bad guys can win more than you think in this game.

One of the things MSH did it for me is that it "got" superhero comics.
Superhero comics don't write in "oh, Spider-Man can only lift 11 tons" limitations- they write in approximations: "he's been able to lift a bus and tons of machinery in the past, but isn't as strong as Rogue, who can lift a garbage truck". The game was made in approximations that still made it easy to play. And it kept the feel of being in a comic book.
Also, it hit the holy grail of role playing games: easy to play, but felt it reflected reality. A player could do something as complex as a fight with superheroes (with various oddities as body armor, super strength, levels of martial arts proficiencies, etc.) and still not have to constantly refer back to the rulebook.

Following the simplicity feature that everyone loves the game for, I'll add that when it came out, it stood out for me in that it wasn't a level-based progression kind of game nor was it about attaining better equipment to boost existing stats. Your hero is who and what he is, and you can improve a single attribute or nothing at all and save your "xp" to improve your chances to hit when you really need it by spending Karma.

NikMak Wrote:
> But on the subject of quality - i would say that,
> as a generalization, the modern RPGs, and board
> games i have played recently are far better games
> in terms of print quality, rule systems and
> originality (and almost any other yard stick you
> care to mention). Once again sticking with D&D
> (because 90% of gamers play that and so we have a
> shared language to use) 5e is a far better role
> playing game than 4th, and I would say its better
> than the previous editions as well. primarily
> the new advantage/disadvantage rules, and the
> streamlined magic system (spells can be cast at
> increased difficulty levels to expand their
> effects) are the two major improvements I would
> point to.
>
> I have a question for you Flying Tiger - how often
> to do you play (or even just purchase and read)
> new RPG systems? What about watching play tests
> on line?
>
> As for cultural significance - how do you measure
> that? When do you measure that? did you know D&D
> was going to be culturally significant in 1974?
> How about in '75 or '76? so by the same token how
> do you know what the 'cultural significance' of
> the tabletop Dragon Age blog will be? And if the
> resurgent popularity of 5e is true as reported,
> what is the cultural significance of that? how
> long will you have to wait to measure its impact?
>
>
> Sorry I am being tetchy, but the attitudes of 'it
> was better in my day' has, in my experience,
> indicated the person speaking has not actually
> tried anything new in a long while. If i am
> mistaken i am sorry.

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with your idea of "quality". More rules and brighter colors do not a higher quality game make! "Quality" is not a subjective term, however "better" is. If you want to argue 5e is"better" than the games that came before, you are entitled to your opinion, but trying to claim it's a higher quality game is not correct in this case (and since you switched terms mid argument I'm unsure what you are trying to say).

IMO, newer games are dumbed-down too much and are too complex because of this, it's ironic. You try to make the game simpler for new players by packing the rule book full of rules to handle every random occurrence and in the process make the rules so complex you almost need a degree to become an expert.

Older games don't have the bells and whistles, you are 100% correct here, but they are more "elegant". They are often pieces of art themselves. We are still talking about MSH BECAUSE it is a piece of art, not because there haven't been other games published since. It's the same reason there are so many retro-clones of older versions of D&D; people want the substance the games had 20-30 years ago with some of the flare provided my modern publishing.

And yes, I've played many of the newer games, and I can say, without a doubt, that if 5e edition was the first D&D I ever played I would never play again, same for 4e. I will never spend another dime on "new" gaming materials. I will invest in new MSH material (I've bought all of G-Core) and I will buy retro-clone products (Labyrinth Lord, mainly), but Hasbro won't get anymore money from me, and I'm not some old, stuck in the '70s codger; I'm a software developer that stays on top of industry trends.

I tried for years to keep up with the gaming industry, bought all the new stuff, griped when game systems wouldn't keep up (Palladium), and vowed to NEVER play outdated crap ever again...then I woke up and realized there is beauty in simplicity like what you see in MSH or old-school D&D.

I won't fault you for liking 5e, but I do take issue with your assertions of it being "better" or "higher quality" simply because it's new. It's like saying Harry Potter is of a "higher quality" than Lord of the Rings simply because it's been published more recently and there are more books, or better yet that Twilight eclipses Dracula...

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I never said 5e is better because it is new. Its a better game because it has better art, better layout, better print quality, a more elegant spell progression, and more coherent rules - e.g. none of the sometimes roll high sometimes roll low thaco rubbish that plagued earlier versions of ad&d.

In terms of 'elegance', another subjective term, 5e is far more finely crafted than any of the early versions, though to be fair that is partly due the lack of time passing and the insane rule bloat that often (always?) comes with d&d stuff.

If you don't like the term quality or better, why don't you pull half a dozen specific examples and we can compare and contrast the various editions of d&d if you really want
. doesn't sound like fun to me but I'm happy to have an objective discussion with you about it.

I'm equally happy to tackle other game systems, but I'm not sure we could find a better bench mark for the hobby than d&d. Pendragon or cthulhu perhaps? Though I'm not up to date on cthulhu. I have been thinking about buying gurps again as well, so perhaps that one?

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please don't put words in my mouth.
>
> I never said 5e is better because it is new. Its a
> better game because it has better art, better
> layout, better print quality, a more elegant spell
> progression, and more coherent rules - e.g. none
> of the sometimes roll high sometimes roll low
> thaco rubbish that plagued earlier versions of
> ad&d.
>
> In terms of 'elegance', another subjective term,
> 5e is far more finely crafted than any of the
> early versions, though to be fair that is partly
> due the lack of time passing and the insane rule
> bloat that often (always?) comes with d&d stuff.
>
> If you don't like the term quality or better, why
> don't you pull half a dozen specific examples and
> we can compare and contrast the various editions
> of d&d if you really want
> . doesn't sound like fun to me but I'm happy to
> have an objective discussion with you about it.
>
> I'm equally happy to tackle other game systems,
> but I'm not sure we could find a better bench mark
> for the hobby than d&d. Pendragon or cthulhu
> perhaps? Though I'm not up to date on cthulhu. I
> have been thinking about buying gurps again as
> well, so perhaps that one?

You just said more of the same. Better by who's standard? You also claimed 5e was more original...the fifth edition is more original? Listen, I get it, you like the newer stuff, but that's hardly an objective evaluation.

Also, the burden of proof is yours. You're the one making the argument that 5e is better than older version of D&D, and by extension MSH, so you are the one that needs to provide proof.

I'll testify to one element that isn't subjective, the art. Fans can name and identify artists from the golden age of D&D: Elmore, Dee, and others. Name one iconic artist from 5e.

Fair point on originality; 1st ed d&d wins that one.

Hmm 'proof': I am guessing this is a waste of time though. Unless you can define for me what it would take to change your mind and then I can try and find it if it exists I suppose.

In the mean time

No more thaco . that was an awful rule. The new armour class rules are far easier to explain to new players, more intuitive.

Scaleable spells. You no longer need lesser and greater versions of each spell. Just cast the first level spell as a high level. Far more 'elegant', 'better' or pick another word.


As for art...

Earliest monster manual I could find

Latest monster manual I could find

Neither one is to my taste exactly, but I would say the 5th ed version is better, do you disagree?

I have never found that "better art" makes for a better quality roleplaying game.

To be sure, art can influence a person's opinion of the game, but with the wealth of art available online, any game could be "upgraded" by an enterprising DM who takes the time to collect what he wants to use to enhance his own game.

I still play MSH, but I find myself using more modern art (from both comics and fan sources, thank you DeviantArt) when illustrating known characters, and have found a wealth of sources (various creator applications online, as well as original art creations being used to inspire new characters) to create original art for original characters.

Honestly, art can be stripped away from a game at this point and the people running and playing in the games can supply art from outside sources. So art should not really be a factor in determining the quality of the game. Only the rules themselves: how well they work, how smooth gameplay progresses, whether or not there are loopholes to exploit, etc.

I more or less agree thrud, but my argument still stands - as a generalisation, the majority of modern rpgs are 'better' than the majority of older games.

You can pick your yard stick, and make the comparison. Art is one yard stick. Print quality is another. Rule systems yet another.

Obviously there are individual exceptions, but as an overall trend, I think RPGs are doing great right now.

NikMak, I understand your opinion, but I simply don't agree.

Art: what constitutes good art is 100% subjective.

Print Quality: not sure why this is an issue. The "print quality" of older books is exactly the same as newer ones with the exception that newer ones are on glossy paper meaning you can't make you own notes as easily.

Better organized: I never had a problem with the way older RPGs were organized.

THAC0: never had an issue with THAC0 or using to-hit tables. I've heard many people complain about these older systems, but I've also played with many players that love the older systems.

So, opinion is correct? Neither. You are free to like the newer systems better, but that doesn't mean they "are better". It simply means you think they are better.

I judge the game by how much fun players have while playing. The weight of the rules are all the glitz aren't really factors unless they impact the fun of the game. For instance: chess is still the most popular board game in the world...and with no pretty artwork, new rules, and with or without a high quality board.

So, I will keep playing BECMI and MSH and will applaud you for playing 5e, but I won't entertain ideas of one being better than the other simply because the printing process is different, shinier artwork, or more rules.

Fair enough barna

As you say if you and yours are having fun, despite the flaws in the designs of the older games you enjoy, then you are doing it right.

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair enough barna
>
> As you say if you and yours are having fun,
> despite the flaws in the designs of the older
> games you enjoy, then you are doing it right.


And you continue to buy the new stuff despite the rule bloat and the load of new flaws.

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair enough barna
>
> As you say if you and yours are having fun,
> despite the flaws in the designs of the older
> games you enjoy, then you are doing it right.

There are no flawless games, just because you choose to overlook the flaws in the newer games you rave about doesn't mean that they're better they're just as flawed as the older ones.

Not all new games have rules bloat. In fact most don't, because most don't sell well enough to justify a steady stream of supplements with new rules. PF/D&D are not representative of "new games" in my book.

Its an interesting point FTJ - in terms of number of core rule sets D&D is tiny - but in terms of numbers sold?

I agree that 'rules bloat' is not an issue for 99% of games, but most of them sink and die pretty quick, I'm sure they would love the opertunity to sell a dozen or so world books given half the chance

Speaking of new rules, anyone tried "nights dark agents" yet? I think I'm going to buy it once I finish the Chuubo campaign I'm running at the moment

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking of new rules, anyone tried "nights dark
> agents" yet? I think I'm going to buy it once I
> finish the Chuubo campaign I'm running at the
> moment

I hadn't heard of it before. I've heard of Chuubo, of course, but I know nothing about it.

Chuubo is hard work to plough through the core rules. They are written in a very odd stream of consciousness style sometimes, and miss out some table top RPG basics you need to actually play the game (like character sheets!).

But - if you make the effort, there is something great in there. Check out our intro campaign , and if you're ever tempted to run it yourself let me know and I can point out some useful resources.

The most novel thing about it is the "quest cards": each player has one or more quests and they get XP if they complete certain actions. An action adventure quest may be something like this

Battle against Darth Vader
5 xp once if you lose a family member to Vader or his forces
5 xp once if you intercept a secret message for Vader
5 xp once if you foil a world destroying plan of the empire
10 xp once if you face Vader in single combat... and lose!
Gain 1xp per session when you discus plots against Vader or the empire in character

But the vast majority if quest cards are aimed at 'pastoral' games (think studio ghibli)