Acccording to one source, Kingpin can lift 650 pounds.

However, wikipedia states that Kingpin's strength feats include "ripping limbs from people (demonstrated under a handshake), crush a man's skull with his bare hands, leave imprints in concrete walls after punching them."

Most of these things suggest superhuman strength in my opinion, although there is no explanation given in the comic books what the source of this superhuman strength would be.

Officially, Kingpin is just an ordinary human who is very, very strong, but the things he does in the comics contradicts this.

In the second Daredevil/Batman crossover, it looks like Kingpin is physically stronger than Batman.

Should Kingpin have Remarkable strength?

Comics are like that. Highly athletic but otherwise normal people performing superhuman feats of athleticism. Take Batman for instance who,s acrobatics, vertical leap, and strength level are all indicative of superhumam ability for a man the height, weight and build of Bruce Wayne. But they say he is only as good as a man his height, weight, and build can be. So, which is it?

Like Powersurge notes at least some of that is artistic license and the rest in keeping for how super-hero comics see the limits of human ability. Kingpin doesn't rate beyond Excellent Strength, as he could on a red feat just barely fit into the range of pulling off some of that stuff. Also he does have a good level of Martial Arts training, including I believe in the 'board-breaking' stunt so likely has standard comic book hand-toughening techniques that would allow him to strike hard objects like walls without injury.

rastafa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Acccording to one source, Kingpin can lift 650
> pounds.
>
> However, wikipedia states that Kingpin's strength
> feats include "ripping limbs from people
> (demonstrated under a handshake), crush a man's
> skull with his bare hands, leave imprints in
> concrete walls after punching them."
>
> Most of these things suggest superhuman strength
> in my opinion, although there is no explanation
> given in the comic books what the source of this
> superhuman strength would be.
>
> Officially, Kingpin is just an ordinary human who
> is very, very strong, but the things he does in
> the comics contradicts this.
>
> In the second Daredevil/Batman crossover, it looks
> like Kingpin is physically stronger than Batman.
>
> Should Kingpin have Remarkable strength?

just going by game mechanics, rm strength isn't necessary to pull off those feats (or FEATs) . Concrete has EX material strength, so a yellow FEAT would shatter it; if a mook has FASE all of Typical, he has a Health: 24 & 20 points of damage could easily be a crushed skull or...ok, it's a bit harder to rip someone's arm off irl, but 20 points of damage should cover that too.

I generally envision King-Pin with nearly RM:30 Strength, such as IM:25….

Basically this would make him as strong as a Competitive Met-RX Power-Lifter with his size and mass…

Also remember, King-Pin’s brute strength is geared to deliver sheer damage, rather than running about hefting stuff…

He may be able to only heft about 650 pounds, but if he lays hands on you…. Bones are getting shattered and dislocated….

In Game Terms, IM:25 is plenty enough strength to pull-off his ‘Comic-Book’ feats, but still reflects a certain level of ‘Realism’ for a big-strapping-corn-fed line-backer….

(Who is still a normal human)

I would compare Kingpin's strength to Bullseye's marksman ability.

It is said that Bullseye has no superhuman powers. He is simply a superb marksman.

But by throwing objects the way he does, he too does a lot of things that would not be possible outside ficiton. A real marksman couldn't kill someone with a toothpick or toss a human tooth through a human skull. However, comic writers want us make believe that such things are possible without any superhuman powers .

So, although Bullseye officially has no superhuman powers and he therefore should not have agility that exceeds human limits, the stats section shows him with Amazing agility. Why? Because the things he does ARE superhuman, despite the fact he is supposed to be an "ordinary human".

Same for the Kingpin?
(By the way, Ox from the Enforcers is an ordinary human without any superhuman powers too... he is only very, very big... but he *has* Remarkable strength).

so that's a rhetorical question?

Well, not necessarily.

Instead of making the Kingpin stronger, you could also say that the official stats made Ox way too strong.

However, I also found a statement somehwere that the Kingpin is as strong as "a man of his size could possibly be" (and he is VERY big).

On the other hand, Ox is probably the biggest (ordinary) human in the Marvel Universe.

Let's take a look at he official stats:

Kingpin: Str 20, En 40, natural body armour 4
Ox: Str 30, En 20, no natural body armour

These stats are very different. I'd tend to make same more alike...

Ox (according to wikipedia at least) has superhuman strength. the kingpin is a trained martial artist --specialized in grappling-- with exceptional strength. in game terms the 30 points of damage that Ox does through brute force is equal to the damage Fisk does through finesse and skill (martial arts c); the methods are different, the outcome is the same.

I'm not saying either argument to level their respective stats is without merit but rather that it's already accounted for in the write up.

which is why I also have a problem with bulleye's amazing agility. the man is a textbook example of ultimate skill yet doesn't have the power. AM agility +1cs for marksman means his aim when throwing something is Monstrous...which means EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the Death-throws is more accurate than him.

...really?




so while it is possible for the published stats to be off, fixing them requires understanding why they appear off, if there is anything among their talents to account for the discrepancy, and finally how to balance the character without unbalancing everyone else.

ofcourse, that's just my opinion (which is worth considerably less than two cents...)

edit...knew I forgot something...

that (martial arts c) also accounts for the difference between lifting power and damaging power that Tanker Ace mentioned without contradicting my initial argument that within the advanced rules EX brute strength is enough to cover the feats attributed to Fisk in the wikipedia entry (me contradicting it, not anyone else...I scanned the thread and noticed my numbers seemed off for a sec... )



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 04:36AM by Brotherless_one.

" in game terms the 30 points of damage that Ox does through brute force is equal to the damage Fisk does through finesse and skill (martial arts c);"

Hm... we always played it that way that martial arts would give +1 CS up to the lowest, not to the standard rank number. So Kingpin would inflict Remarkable (26) damage, not Remarkable (30).

But be that as it may - you are of course right, Ox *is* stronger than Kingpin (one source states he can lift 800 pounds).

Does the mean that Ox is a character with superhuman strength, but without superhuman origin? He is supposed to be an ordinary human. Maybe it will be revealed some day that he took some super steroids or so...

Anyway, I'd say that Ox' endurance is too low.

Kingpin got Incredible endurance (by the way - is that supposed to be "human"?) not because he is a better sprinter than Daredevil (Ex endurance), but because of his mass. Therefore, I'd rank Ox higher than Ex endurance...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2011 03:01AM by rastafa.

Ox and Kingpin get those stats as much from guesswork and what the writer at the time felt made sense without actually following the rules for what various limits were. Ox for example seems to go down easier than Kingpin (with the writer kind of forgetting that mooks always go down easier than bosses even if the mook should be tougher), so apparently has less health/durability than Kingpin so was given Excellent whereas Kingpin was given Incredible, even though Incredible is really too high and he really shouldn't be higher than Excellent either.

By the way, apart from his impressive physical abilities, the Kingpin showed some other remarkable talents...

- resisting the Purple Man's mind control
- noticing Batman behind him when Batman is still outside the building hanging there at the wall in the dark
- controlling his heartbeat so Daredevil cannot tell if the Kingpin is lying

For an ordinary human, the Kingpin is very impressive IMO.

So it doesn't surprise me that in one story Spider Man asked him "Are you sure you aren't a mutant or something?"

Kingpin isn't just a big, fat mastermind... the guy is a fighter. Isn't he like a master of sumo wrestling or something? On top of that, all that bulk is solid muscle. He may not have a mutant gene or sci-fi explanation for his abilities, but he's definitely one of those few individuals who have pushed themselves beyond the limits of "maximum human potential."

Or, maybe he's a genetic freak (without being a mutant as Marvel classifies them) on top of his training. There are human beings in real life who have little quirks and abilities that stand out from the norm. I can't remember what its called, but has anyone ever seen that show on the History Channel with Stan Lee? You know, the one that looks at real life superhumans... like the guy who hammered a spike through a sheet metal covered board using his skull (which is more than twice as thick as a typical skull) or the guy who runs and never gets tired or the guy who can't be electrified?

I look at the max. human potential thing as more of a guideline than a rule. For the most part, that represents humanity's upper limits without something extreme or unusual to explain the rule. However, I also look at training to excess as a means of explaining the seemingly impossible. I know some people might consider it a silly reference, but let's look at Ken & Ryu of the Street Fighter games. They can manipulate their chi and throw fireballs and do that flaming dragon punch thing... but they're not, as far as anyone can tell, mutants. They got their superhuman abilities through training, training, and training to be the best of the best... and then trained some more and so on. Kingpin could just be an example of this level of training combined with being somewhat larger than normal for even large humans.