"a) Daredevil's psyche"

Okay, I see that Daredevil's psyche is Remarkable now in the writeup on this website.

Well, Good was too low in any case.

I remember that Daredevil (psyche now Remarkable) was able to resist the Purple Man's mind control once while Spider-Man (psyche Incredible) couldn't. Of course, in game terms this could have been a lucky dice roll for Daredevil and a bad roll for Spidey...

As I said above, Daredevil was the only one capable of defeating the Fear-Eater, while Thor, Captain America and the Thing were only able to expell the Fear-Eater from their mind, but not to kill him. So maybe a resistance against fear-based attacks for Daredevil...?

Something you have to remember is that the Fear Eater was starving, desperate to find nourishment after being driven off by the others, by the time it got to Daredevil it simply didn't have the power to stir up any of his latent fears. By that point it needed your average fear-laden human or hypochondriac to survive and sadly found one of the least fear-laden humans who was still a balanced human and not a sociopath or psychotic.

Hmmmm.... okay... but are there other examples of how Daredevil resisted fear-based attacks? I mean, is "man without fear" a mere title or is it more? I don't know... are there any examples of Daredevil meeting Mr. Fear?

Does anybody know?

rastafa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmmm.... okay... but are there other examples of
> how Daredevil resisted fear-based attacks? I mean,
> is "man without fear" a mere title or is it more?
> I don't know... are there any examples of
> Daredevil meeting Mr. Fear?
>
> Does anybody know?

There aren't too many purely fear-based attacks, there's more 'man that should scare anyone dealing with it' where the fear is more a side-effect or component of the main attack. As far as 'Man Without Fear' goes, it's more title at the start, much like Iron Man was 'The Invincible Iron Man' yet clearly not. With the passage of time though writers have from time to time explored the depths of his ability to resist or overcome fear due to that original catchy title attached to Daredevil (seems like when many of the core characters were created along with the next wave Stan Lee and others following in his footsteps felt the need for a catchphrase or tag to pump up the name, just like the X-men were the Uncanny X-men, Incredible Hulk, Astonishing Ant-Man, etc.). By now he probably has a more established rep for defying fear but the degree is debatable since it's so subjective how terrifying a particular thing should be or how strong his general Psyche should be as a result.

Okay, sounds reasonable.

A friend just told me that it is canon that Daredevil is *never* affected by the Purple Man's power in all stories. Is he right? I mean, if he is right, then we can't say "Daredevil just had a lucky roll". If it really is the case that Daredevil's will is always shown as being too strong for the Purple Man's controlling powers in the comics, then the stats should reflect this.

rastafa Wrote:
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> Okay, sounds reasonable.
>
> A friend just told me that it is canon that
> Daredevil is *never* affected by the Purple Man's
> power in all stories. Is he right? I mean, if he
> is right, then we can't say "Daredevil just had a
> lucky roll". If it really is the case that
> Daredevil's will is always shown as being too
> strong for the Purple Man's controlling powers in
> the comics, then the stats should reflect this.

I don't know about that but being able to resist one particular individual's powers doesn't mean one gets a blanket bit of protection against a range of attacks, or in this case specifically it doesn't mean Daredevil must have a massive Psyche to ward off Purple Man's powers. Wonder Man and Atlas aren't affected either because they're energy bodies, something about Daredevil's powers might simply provide him protection against the pheromone-based powers of Purple Man.

"something about Daredevil's powers might simply provide him protection against the pheromone-based powers of Purple Man."

Yes, it seems that in the early stories, you must be able to see the Purple Man in order to get affected by his powers. Since Daredevil is blind, he wasn't affected.
However, the whole concept of Purple Man's power was changed later: pheromones... Wonder Man is immune because he doesn't breathe.
Daredevil, however, is still shown to be able to resist the Puple Man, but from now it is explained by Daredevil's willpower...

Still can't just by just that one example, otherwise you have cases of characters known to have exceptionally strong wills shown being dominated by mind control while someone else who's clearly not as strong succeeding based just on writer's whim or how they want the story to go. There's a need for more than one case like that to help build up a reason for why he might have an Incredible or Amazing Psyche, where he's consistently shrugging off people shown with strong powers of domination while others falter. Purple Man alone might provide a starting point but he's not an end-point.

Rigth. Okay, need to look for more example...

Of course, we could also have a very simple solution. Just add to Daredevil's stats:

"Immunity: For unknown reasons, Daredevil is not affected by the Purple Man's pheromones."

By that same token you could put "Molecule Man - Vulnerability: Owen Reece is easily manipulated by the radioactive clay used by the Puppet Master".

Punstarr Wrote:
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> By that same token you could put "Molecule Man -
> Vulnerability: Owen Reece is easily manipulated by
> the radioactive clay used by the Puppet Master".

Or "Marvel Comics - Vulnerability. The Marvel universe is easily re written and it's continuity blown to hell by Editors in Chief named Quesada.

"If Spider-Man is fighting Firelord, increase all his stats by +3 CS."

Okay, let's get serious...

Yeah, right, all those inconsistencies

I believe that the difference is: Spider-Man beat Firelord on *one* lucky day... the Puppet Master manipulated the Molecule Man only *one* time (I believe, but I don't know for sure)... so that is neclegtable.
However, Daredevil resists the Purple Man *every* time they meet. That means that in this case there is no inconsistency. So, we have only 3 choices:

a) ignore this fact

b) raise Dardedevil's psyche, which would only make sense if there is evidence that Daredevil can also resist other mind control powers easily.

c) give Daredevil a special immunity against the Purple Man's powers. He could have gained an immunity against certain pheromones by the same accidents that gave him his enhanced senes. I know: That is never explicitly stated in the comics. But it could interpreted from the way it is shown in the comics.

That's weird. The Purple Man's powers are listed at Unearthly. Yet in Emperor Doom, Doom defied Purple Man's powers with sheer willpower. Doom's Psyche is Amazing. Shouldn't the Purple Man's powers be set to Incredible or Amazing then?

Because as much as I like Daredevil, he's no Amazing Psyche. Incredible, perhaps.

I believe emotional attacks are resisted by Intuition not Psyche. Daredevil has a Monstrous rank in that category, which is what would make him difficult to deal with using a fear attack. I still think his psyche would be higher than good, but maybe resisting purple man should be in the same category as Spider Man beating Fire Lord. He probably shouldn't have been able to do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2009 04:49AM by bricks.

Purple Man's probably a bit over-statted in that regard, makes more sense than the idea so many of those who've defied him are running Monstrous or better wills to resist. So he's great at dominating normal humans and super-humans lacking experience resisting mind-controlling attacks but for the ones like Doom he just can't pull it off. I imagine the only way he makes it to Unearthly is when in that crystal Doom created to amplify his powers to control the world (and even then they had people affected who shouldn't have been due to their powers or wills).

Nightmask Wrote:
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> Purple Man's probably a bit over-statted in that
> regard, makes more sense than the idea so many of
> those who've defied him are running Monstrous or
> better wills to resist. So he's great at
> dominating normal humans and super-humans lacking
> experience resisting mind-controlling attacks but
> for the ones like Doom he just can't pull it off.
> I imagine the only way he makes it to Unearthly is
> when in that crystal Doom created to amplify his
> powers to control the world (and even then they
> had people affected who shouldn't have been due to
> their powers or wills).


Agreed, even the Kingpin resisted him and his Pysche in the players book is only GD. Id rate Fisk a little higher and Killgrave much lower.

We had a disscussion about Henry Pym's intelligence here (look at former postings in this thread).

While we all agreed that the game's original writeup got it wrong (Excellent reason), we didn't agree if he should have Remarkable or Incredible reason.

I still say Incredible. And here are my arguments:

- In one Avengers story, Amadeus Cho ("seventh smartest person on the planet") meets Henry Pym. After seeing what Pym's capable of, Amadeus states that he (Amadeus) should rather be considered the eighth smartest person (Pym has been off-planet for a while an probably wasn't counted when Amadeus was dubbed "seventh smartest person on the planet").

- In an older Avengers story, Reed Richard, Henry Pym and Beast analyze a dead Pseudo-Hulk (a creation of Armin Zola). While working, Richards and Pym do a lot of science bubble, and Beast thinks that he doesn't have a clue what the two are talking about. This scene seems to imply that both Richards and Pym are much more intelligent that Beast (= Remarkable intelligence).

- Henry Pym is the current "Scientist Supreme".

- marvel.wikia.com says about Pym: "His high I.Q. makes him one of the nine smartest people in the world capable of rivaling others such as Reed Richards [...]"

So yes, I see Pym being in one league with Professor X, Tony Stark, Magneto...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2010 09:54PM by rastafa.

rastafa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We had a disscussion about Henry Pym's
> intelligence here (look at former postings in this
> thread).
>
> While we all agreed that the game's original
> writeup got it wrong (Excellent reason), we didn't
> agree if he should have Remarkable or Incredible
> reason.
>
> I still say Incredible. And here are my
> arguments:
>
> - In one Avengers story, Amadeus Cho ("seventh
> smartest person on the planet") meets Henry Pym.
> After seeing what Pym's capable of, Amadeus states
> that he (Amadeus) should rather be considered the
> eighth smartest person (Pym has been off-planet
> for a while an probably wasn't counted when
> Amadeus was dubbed "seventh smartest person on the
> planet").

Except there was the Skrull around who everyone thought was Pym and by comic-science was just as smart and capable as the real Pym for whom that list was in fact including. The only way Pym's smarter than Cho is when Cho hasn't had his junk food for a while.

> - In an older Avengers story, Reed Richard, Henry
> Pym and Beast analyze a dead Pseudo-Hulk (a
> creation of Armin Zola). While working, Richards
> and Pym do a lot of science bubble, and Beast
> thinks that he doesn't have a clue what the two
> are talking about. This scene seems to imply that
> both Richards and Pym are much more intelligent
> that Beast (= Remarkable intelligence).

Not necessarily, it only implies that knowledge wise (I.E. talents) that Pym's talent base and specialization put him with a better understanding of the subject than the Beast. Pym as the specialist in Bio-chemistry and Pym Particles excels over others who have a higher base Reason but lack the degree of specialization. Much as someone with an Associates in Mechanical Engineering and a higher Reason can be exceeded by someone a bit lower on the Reason but with a Doctorate in the field.

> - Henry Pym is the current "Scientist Supreme".

I think we covered that well enough with flames in the other thread but I don't really put stock in a label like that, for which as some noted that still doesn't mean he has to be equal to or close to Reed and Doom in genius.

> - marvel.wikia.com says about Pym: "His high I.Q.
> makes him one of the nine smartest people in the
> world capable of rivaling others such as Reed
> Richards [...]"

Which is pretty sad, when you consider Black Goliath when he was introduced was directly stated as being the only person brilliant enough to understand Pym's work meaning he would have to be one of the top 10 smartest people on the planet yet ended up treated as a C-list idiot most of the time (even his time recruited by the High Evolutionary who clearly would have only gone for the smartest around never helped with changing that).

> So yes, I see Pym being in one league with
> Professor X, Tony Stark, Magneto...

I just don't see Pym going higher than Remarkable Reason, he proves such a rival due to his talent specialization giving him that 2CS bonus to make his feats in the Amazing level near where Reed's at.

I have no problem with pym having incredible reason. He was the catchall scientist guy for the Avengers for years, even moreso than Stark for much of the early period. beit checking the vitals on the Silver Surfer, designing Avengers tech and gear, robot creation, weapon design, discovering the Microverse... those are pretty impressive feats beyond what I would consider Remarkable reason.

Hehe....He checked Surfer's vitals with a Stethoscope and left him in the sun to heal....

I could have made that diagnosis...


Not discrediting his intelligence, although I will say that in recent months a LOT more emphasis has been put on his intelligence than in the past...

Splat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hehe....He checked Surfer's vitals with a
> Stethoscope and left him in the sun to heal....
>
> I could have made that diagnosis...
>
>
> Not discrediting his intelligence, although I will
> say that in recent months a LOT more emphasis has
> been put on his intelligence than in the past...

Unfortunately there's such a fine line between demonstrating that a character has a specific level of genius and keeping to that level instead of having it that every genius can solve every problem no matter how unrelated to the original examples given of their genius. Beast for example created a means of inducing mutation that he used on himself to transform into his blue-furred form (and for a short period had Regeneration like Wolverine has now and outclassed Wolverine back then) due to his understanding of genetics, biology and chemistry. It's hard for writers (some at least) to not try and make him into a genius at engineering, computers, physics, and so on.

The same happens with Pym, who was a biochemist and had enough understanding of Computers to create a crude AI. But thanks to Genius Creep (the intellectual's version of power creep) he's been expanded into just about every facet of scientific endeavor when he just shouldn't have been able to learn all those talents in all those diverse fields.

Banner's had this happen too, going from his having enough genius to develop the Gamma Bomb thanks to his physics and electronics talents to being as omnidisciplinary as Reed Richards able to rebuild and upgrade the Super-adaptoid and now we're seeing him even creating miniaturized force field technology able to shrug off attacks by his son and feed on his power.

These characters, both Pym and Banner have been around for over 40 years. i wouldn't call that creep, i'd call it advancement and evolution.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These characters, both Pym and Banner have been
> around for over 40 years. i wouldn't call that
> creep, i'd call it advancement and evolution.

You can only advance so far though then you should cap out, plus while the characters have been around that long the time that they've existed inside the comic reality is far shorter so what they can do should have pretty much hit a wall a long time ago. For which that in no way means they can't be still written as captivating characters but as you make more and more characters all geniuses who can solve any problem they all end up looking the same no matter how different their powers or appearances.

Going from Remarkable to Incredible in 40 years doesn't seem all that off the wall to me.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Going from Remarkable to Incredible in 40 years
> doesn't seem all that off the wall to me.

Well by that reasoning every Marvel Character that's been around 30+ years ought to be a genius including Iceman, Angel, Ben Grimm, Johnny Storm, Quicksilver, and so on. Meanwhile one of the actual geniuses has some surprising refusal to accept him as the genius he is (Spider-man that is) in spite of the hundreds of instances where he's proven capable of working out some scientific problem and kitbashed a solution within minutes. Only Reed Richards has done more.

Your argument is phallacious NM, in that the characters you refference above have nothing of merit in their Reason stat from the start, while Pym and banner both started their comic book careers as genius level intellects. Further, all of the other examples you provide have had increases in the scale of their power, be it sheer force or control, or have undergone significant changes to their powerset. if we were to equate it to game terms, Banner and Pym spent karma to advance in Reason while iceman got his Ice power from Excellent to Mosntrous, Angel and Thing experimented with differing forms and revamps in powerset, and so on and so forth. As for Spider-Man's intellect being recognized, it has been. by Stark, Richards and others as well. Spidey even was able to implement an overide in his Red and Gold spider armor that Tony built for him. What more recognition for Spider-Man do you want?

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your argument is phallacious NM, in that the
> characters you refference above have nothing of
> merit in their Reason stat from the start, while
> Pym and banner both started their comic book
> careers as genius level intellects. Further, all
> of the other examples you provide have had
> increases in the scale of their power, be it sheer
> force or control, or have undergone significant
> changes to their powerset. if we were to equate
> it to game terms, Banner and Pym spent karma to
> advance in Reason while iceman got his Ice power
> from Excellent to Mosntrous, Angel and Thing
> experimented with differing forms and revamps in
> powerset, and so on and so forth. As for
> Spider-Man's intellect being recognized, it has
> been. by Stark, Richards and others as well.
> Spidey even was able to implement an overide in
> his Red and Gold spider armor that Tony built for
> him. What more recognition for Spider-Man do you
> want?

If you're going to argue just being around for 40+ years is justification for an increase in Reason then it should cover everyone in general, so everyone ought to edge up into Genius range. Even though the characters themselves aren't more than 10 years older than when they first started (and Spider-man has half that stolen from him by OMD if not more).

I've seen at least some downplay Spider-man's accomplishments on the scientific front or dismiss the body of them as 'unrealistic' as if somehow those hundreds of examples were exceptions instead of the rule.

There are also different levels of genius, but we end up seeing it treated as if everyone who's a genius must all be at the same level which just isn't so. Just because he's a genius for example doesn't mean Pym is or should be the same measure of genius as Reed Richards. Pym ought to be great in his specialties, enough to impress Reed but shouldn't be able to handle things outside that specialty or should clearly be if not stumped require a lot more work and time than Reed. Just as Banner ought to be great when it comes to physics in particular Gamma Ray-related physics but shouldn't be rivaling Reed when it comes to engineering and electronics technology.

Capo's right though...Grimm's specialty is is strength and toughness...He's a lot stronger and tougher now than he was 40 years ago...
Wolverine obviously spent a TON of karma on his regeneration...
Hell even Thanos has increased in power exponentially over the decades...

Pym is a scientist, and over the years, it's no secret that he's been modifying, experimenting with and improving upon his growing/shrinking formula...Whoever is writing for him now though has really pushed his mental capacity into overdrive...During the Ultron Initiative, he shows off how smart he is, but that's really all he does: show off...During the Fantastic Four avec Storm and Black Panther, Reed calls him up because he's more experienced in the field of biophysics than Reed, but Reed still makes him seem (and feel) like a blithering idiot...


Basically, all the smart guys have gotten smarter, the strong guys have gotten stronger (give or take Strong Guy), energy manipulators manipulate even more energy, and the guys that do everything, do everything better than they ever did (i.e. Black Panther and Adam Warlock)...