OK, MSH family, I have a humdinger of a question concerning karma gain and karma loss. It has more to do with personal perspectives of right and wrong than anything else.

Before I start, I would like to make a distinction between Ethics and Morals, at least in the Surge dictionary. Ethics can change depending upon the circumstance; morals are absolute. Ethics come from within; morals come from without. Classic case from any intro Philosophy class: is it alright to steal? The ethicist would ask, "well, what are the circumstances behind the theft? Is the person stealing to benefit his hungry family? Is the victim wealthy, and therefore can afford the theft, especially since it benefits other people? etc. etc." The moralist would say, "no, for it is written, Thou Shalt Not." It would be easy to get into the finer points of ethics vs. morals, and make this a debate about that, but for the sake of argument, let's leave the definitions where they stand.

Karma is a very interesting thing in the MSH game. Heroes are awarded karma for doing good things, i.e., stopping crimes and rescuing people. Villains are awarded karma for doing the opposite... committing crimes, endangering people. The only thing that is universally condemned is killing, as it results in all karma loss whether the character is heroic or villainous. The prohibition against killing is easy to understand, as a game mechanic it a) keeps the heroic, comic book spirit of the game, where villains get tied up and hauled away to some cardboard prison, and b) it keeps the PC's from looking at every NPC into a big experience point mill, like in Knights of the Dinner Table. (I've played with groups like that, haven't you?)

Note that the rules make no distinction between murder and justifiable homicide. I suppose the rationale for this is that the heroes generally have so much power that they can subdue the bad guys and not need to use lethal force. Spiderman could easily kill crooks with his bare hands, instead he chooses to beat the stuffing out of them and leave them tied up with webbing for New York City's finest. No one can argue that Spidey is a villain, with maybe the exception of J.J. Jameson.

It would seem to me, therefore, that karma awards in the MSH game seem to be more about Ethics than Morals. On the one hand, the heroes, the supposedly virtuous characters of the play, are rewarded for following a moral code. Thou Shalt not Steal, kill, destroy public property, etc. Things like this are condemned in nearly everybody's Book. Yet, villains are not penalized for committing crimes, breaking the code, but rewarded for doing so. Karma must therefore be a matter of personal perspective, of culture and upbringing, an interior thing. Ergo, karma is more about ethics than morals.

So finally, we get to the dilemma. (Pardon me while I sound like an escaped mental patient). In the campaign I am currently running, my wife is playing a Slayer, as in Buffy's successor. Through a series of unbelievable circumstances, she is pulled through time and space and ends up as part of a space pirate crew. (sure, I've taken my meds, why do you ask?) The pirates have hearts of gold, and live by a strict code of conduct. The code prohibits things like murder (not killing, but this is a fine hair to split) and rape, but encourages theft, larceny, and partying like a rock star.

In the upcoming adventure, the pirate crew will face off against a rival pirate ship, in grisly hand to claw combat. These rival pirates are true villains, real bad guys who enjoy rape, torture, murder, even against children and elderly. The, er, "good" pirates know who the "bad" pirates are, having faced them in the past. They know that they will have to fight for their lives, and will have to kill if they want to survive. Most would execute the bad guys, even tied up and helpless, just to cleanse the galaxy of that kind of monster.

Not so for the Slayer. She kills, but only vampires, demons, and the undead. The death she deals in does not incur karma loss, as her foes are already dead. She would never kill a living person, not even in self defense. Like the Spiderman example above, she has enough power to use non-lethal force to incapacitate.

Like Captain Mal, the good pirates believe in fair play - someone tries to kill you, kill 'em right back. Justifiable homicide, which is distinctly different than murder.

My point, and I do have one: given that karma is based on ethics instead of morals, and given that the culture of the space pirates differs from the culture of the average comic book hero, and given that the villains are so villainous... how would you handle karma awards and losses for this type of battle?

Thank you for reading this bizzare rant. I'd like to hear what you have to say before I tell you how I'd like to handle it.

It's your game. Run it the way you see fit.

The Slayer is still going to follow her personal code, presumably, so I'm not sure what difference it makes, if the "good" pirates are NPCs.

If the space pirates are actual pirates and not some BS in name only pirates and the game follows the pirates, just flip what causes karma gains and losses. Kill someone, you gain karma. Save someone, loose karma. Save someone to hold them for ransom and deliver them alive to get the ransom, gain karma.

ETHICS, MORALITY, HINDU, & BUDDISTIC KARMIC LAW!!!

About two years ago now, I discussed these very issues here and I can honestly say that,
No consensus was ever reached by myself (arguing with myself), nor anyone else here...
Other than Nightmask pointing out, yet again, another situations' mess created by Marvel writers
putting their 'personal beliefs' and prejudices ahead of logic, reason, good writting, and... Ethics!


MORALITY
This is a Biblical creation AIR (As I Recall), and was created to discribe rules passed down by God
which are Not the rules of man, of which one must (by Gods same rules) also follow as long as they do Not
step into the arena of immorality themselves. HOWEVER, just like the word Hypocrisy was once a Christian
exclusive word, both have now been taken by secular society and have added additional definitions and
criterial meaning to them (hypocrisy is Such the fun word to sling at people)!

Morality now has taken on (due to peoples lack of knowledge regarding its definitions' and origin) soooo many new
Criteria, that it is now just another word for ETHICS, and the two (due to bad english from Both the Americas AND
present day UK) are both interchangeable with eachother...
Thus the deference's between them become mute, in regards to this discussion.


THE REAL CRUX OF THE MATTER...
Now becomes 'What is Law?' and 'What is the Right Thing to Do?'...
Clearly the way the rules are written, none of then Supers of MARVEL 616 (Fk Ultimate M), should NEVER
be able to progress at all, as most all of them have been, or currently Are, vigilantes in some regard.
And Vigilantly (according to current day police propaganda/law) is EVIL!

This is fine for the comics where, everytime the X-Men, Avengers, or whatever seems to grow or advance in
Power/ability/skill/talent/popularity/resources/etc... They lose them again as soon as (yet another) new writer
comes along with 'their own take on things' and says they wish to 'start new with the character', stating how
they "dislike the character as is" and "would like to take them in another, newer, fresher, and All New hipper
direction", by starting them (yet again) at ground Zero!!!
[READ: Reboot/Retcon/and "Creative License"]

So for Comic book characters to accumulate Mountains of KARMA and lose it all, as well as their progress
forwards, seems to be canon day staple (thank you Joe-Q for fn up that up for us!!!), but the same need Not
be true for you and your game.


WHICH IS IT, HINDU LAW or BUDDISTIC KARMA???
This goes to the issue of Which one of these does the MARVEL FASERIP BOD system run off of for Game
Mechanics, as ethics and morals are Not listened to by the makers of the game.
So Spiderman swings into action against GG, the police are on the scene, and 'Old Web Head' has yet to be
Deputized (at this point). The Green Goblin is dangling Mary Jane W (or Gwen Stacy for all you Really Younguns)
By a zip line, 100' up and over the pavement.

What do you do???
FASERIP KARMIC LAW and STATE/FEDERAL LAW:
Nothing. It is the polices' job to save her, not yours... Sure you lose all your KARMA when Mr. Po Po lets her fall to her
Meaty Fate on the concrete (they protect and serve those in power, not the people), but at least you obeyed the Law.
HINDU KARMA POINTS: +20 (obeying fed/state law)/-All (cuz lifes a B, and so is FASERIPs rule).


ETHICAL/ANARCHISTIC RULE/CHRISTIAN & JEWISH MORALITY/AND BUDDISTIC KARMA:
Save her, you're the good guy yah Puttz!!!
In this answer you Gain, Not lose +200 Karma!!!


Why, because Hindu Karmic Laws is determined by gods (writers in the case of Marvel), and Buddistic
Law is determined by 'Personal Ethics/Morals/and Beliefs).
As is Anachistic Justice. Christian/Jewish is to save people.

So go with NO#

FYI-ANARCHISTIC RULE: Cares about Justice above all else. They do Like Law (Luv it one could say) dispite the propaganda of their
enemies (governments), they just happen to Hate Corrupt and unjust 'Laws', which is why these two groups are at eachothers throats so very
often, because A) Governments are easily corrupted due to having simply Nothing to prevent such corruptions, and B.) Evil is more motivated
than 'Good', and always seeks the place/positions with the most power (Governments).
As such Anarchistic Rule believes in Self Rule (Ruled with Justice, Balance, and an Eye for What's Right). And Governments/Police/and their
Laws, always fall short, in the EXTREME!

Not saying Anarchy is correct, as societies can simply Never advance in creating cures for diseases, TV, internet, cars, and just about any and all
other types of technology (good/bad/neutral), which people want and or need.


BUDDISTIC KARMA
Believes that Your will shapes your reality. Buddah did Not believe in gods (in effect he was an athiest), and that gods do Not make absolute Karmic rules.
Thus you gain KARMA via gaining a good strong self vision of yourself. When you do sominth counter to your Totally held beliefs of right and wrong.
So to H.E. Double H-Stix with so called Good/Evil of MARVEL (Which is just opinion).


CHRISTIAN/JEWISH MORALITY:
As mentioned earlier, does demand you obey the "Laws of the Land", until they become so corrupt and un-Godly that they NEED to be broken!
Ethics (True Ethics) like stealing bread for yourself, or putting someone out of their misery, would actually Not be Moral (as you'd pointed out), and Christains/
Jews would/must continue to adhere to their Morals. Stealing is Always Wrong, and Killing against Gods' Laws, and Mans' Laws' are always wrong, and Is Murder!!
BUT, if you are a cop and Christian/Jewish, and you Must shoot to kill (say the Green Goblin is about to activaye and throw a bomb at civies), Then according to Gods
Law, it is the 'Law', and Not the executioner, that is doing the Killing.
You are Not at Fault!
That said, the same cop can get away with Murder using mans laws, but God then looks at the content of your heart and, if he sees that your intent was to indeed commit
Murder... Well, you've commited Murder, despite 'Legally' getting away with killing someone.

So you get Karma depending on which rule system you take.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2014 12:02PM by Steeler49er.

Steeler49er Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ETHICS, MORALITY, HINDU, & BUDDISTIC KARMIC
> LAW!!!
>
> About two years ago now, I discussed these very
> issues here and I can honestly say that,
> No consensus was ever reached by myself (arguing
> with myself), nor anyone else here...
> Other than Nightmask pointing out, yet again,
> another situations' mess created by Marvel
> writers
> putting their 'personal beliefs' and prejudices
> ahead of logic, reason, good writting, and...
> Ethics!

No reason to be bringing me up or presenting your opinion of what you think I said as if it were something I said. If I felt like commenting on this thread I'd have probably done so by now and I can take care of presenting my own views myself if and when I decide to do so.

???
Was not ment as an insult, more like praise.
Honestly I am sorry to have miss read you. It has been a while since I'd read your comment.
Sorry again.







That said, I will Not make the mistake of taking your side again, as I have here and over on the PB boards.
That was clearly a second mistake I now rectify.

Steeler49er Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ???
> Was not ment as an insult, more like praise.
> Honestly I am sorry to have miss read you. It has
> been a while since I'd read your comment.
> Sorry again.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That said, I will Not make the mistake of taking
> your side again, as I have here and over on the PB
> boards.
> That was clearly a second mistake I now rectify.

I apologize for getting so touchy and snapping as I did, I've had a few too many people just toss out my name in a negative fashion (including recently on the palladium books forums) I guess I've developed a knee-jerk defensive reaction I hadn't realized I had and need to be mindful not to do in the future. Again I apologize for reacting as I did and do hope you forgive me my momentary over-reaction there.

Ohhh... kay. I got egg on my face now.
Yeah I shoulda figured that was your reason for saying that, but Im in a hurry to get to my kids 9th b-day lunch, so I was not
Really remembering that, how badly you get dissed over there, you may have actually taken what I said as wrong.
Dude, you just always seem to keep your steely balls cool... In fact, no matter what they've said, you never let it get under your skin.
I never thought that, that #^* they say about you got to you.
Honestly I never knew you cared what they said.

I always thought that it was only Me that got irate at them, that's why I've not been, nor am going back over to PB...
Yeah No, I find all the stuff you say to be infinitely accurate and can't honestly believe how you do it (being right so bloody often).

In fact, in all these Many years, and out of thousand of your post, I've only found you to be incorrect (after verifying your statements), only Once!
That's like Freakish Accuracy (1:1000x correct).
So yeah...
Im Not on their side, I in fact agree with you. I will think twice about misquoting you in the future a d,
Again I apologize.


Sorry, gotta go, night everyone.

Steeler49er Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ohhh... kay. I got egg on my face now.
> Yeah I shoulda figured that was your reason for
> saying that, but Im in a hurry to get to my kids
> 9th b-day lunch, so I was not
> Really remembering that, how badly you get dissed
> over there, you may have actually taken what I
> said as wrong.
> Dude, you just always seem to keep your steely
> balls cool... In fact, no matter what they've
> said, you never let it get under your skin.
> I never thought that, that #^* they say about you
> got to you.
> Honestly I never knew you cared what they said.

Reputation matters and none of us are perfect, only the trolls don't care what people say about them (since to them it just means they're important and they've gotten what they wanted out of you).

> I always thought that it was only Me that got
> irate at them, that's why I've not been, nor am
> going back over to PB...
> Yeah No, I find all the stuff you say to be
> infinitely accurate and can't honestly believe how
> you do it (being right so bloody often).

I'm sure many others get annoyed to some degree as well, they just aren't as vocal about it or just left rather than deal with it. Myself I don't really leave places because then the people I do help won't get that help and they'll just have the trolls to rely on (and who wants to leave anyone to rely on a troll's opinion on things? ).

> In fact, in all these Many years, and out of
> thousand of your post, I've only found you to be
> incorrect (after verifying your statements), only
> Once!
> That's like Freakish Accuracy (1:1000x correct).
> So yeah...
> Im Not on their side, I in fact agree with you. I
> will think twice about misquoting you in the future a d,
> Again I apologize.

Well it helps not to comment on anything unless you're sure of things when it comes to accuracy, if I'm not conversant with something I'm not likely to comment on it except perhaps to ask questions. Apology readily accepted, and honestly as knee-jerk as my reaction was you probably weren't that wrong or at least I never really processed what you said (which is kind of the result of knee-jerk reactions) and just went defensive.

> Sorry, gotta go, night everyone.

Hope you sleep well then and the rest of your family.

Years back i was talking to a Jewish scholar of the Old Testament, and we got on the topic of the ten commandmentsand Jewish law..

He explained the following to me:

The law of the old testament (which is based on the Torah) can essentially be split into several parts.

The "legal code" which governs how society is run. The governing legalities so to speak the crimes and punishments section. There are roughly 137 of them

The "religious" laws that govern behaviour.

According to jewish tradition (or so it was explained to me if i understood it correctly) the religious laws were split into 2 factions. The ones that were given by god and the prophets and the ones that came later instituted by the rabbi, and the pharisees and Sadducees. The latter ones were traditions that later became unofficial "laws". And it was the violation of these that got Jesus into trouble with the Sanhedren.

It was the latter two that were meant when Jesus said "i came to fulfill the law not destroy it." As the second set of laws were to help the isrealites prepare for the coming of the Messiah.

The first part of the law, the legal code so to speak was never meant to be "done away with" as it were, but being under Roman control they had to follow roman (and later other nations) laws.

Now, where am i going with this? Jewish law makes a difference between killing and murder. According to my talimudic friend, murder was thr intentional slaying of another individual intentionally taking anothers life for gain. Killing was the punishment for various capital crimes such murder, arson, kidnapping and other such crimes.

So more correctly the commandment should be "Thou shalt not Murder". As opposed to "Thou shalt not Kill. Taking a life in defense of yourself, your property, your loved ones, another person or in defense of your country was completely acceptqble and not subject to punishment by the government

Hummm... I'm still signed in, that makes it easy...
The Sadducees!!!
I ain't that named dropped in some time.


Kay kay, so which of the systems do YOU (nebulous 'you' guys) all think
SHOULD be used?
The Hindu Karmic Law, or the Buddistic Karmic Laws?
Buddism Karma may be cool sounding, but all you need to end up with an Utterly imbalanced
PC is, for him/her/it to come to a (convenient) life changing epiphany mid game, where he/she/it
"Realizes" that "Hey, Everything I do is Awesome", and next thing you know, that player can get Karma
Awards for spitting on babies!
More over, in Buddha's view, this and all other realities are all just in your head, which contradicts every
single shread of reason, logic, common sense, science, law of nature, and all human history, in that it would
straight-up imply that you can rework ALL reality with 'just' wishful thinking.
Even more so is that ALL of reality and in it (including other people), are Really just delusions of your own making.
All of which could easily just Kill any game the second a Rules Lawyer enters the room.


HINDU KARMIC LAW on the other hand, may be Too heavy handed, in that is what we seem to already
have here in regards to FASERIP BOD. Here you have the developers 'Personal Opinions' of Right/Wrong
Good/Bad, and Righteousness/Evil all dictating (rather unrealistically) what you, the player, should view as
Correct and incorrect morality/ethical standards.
THE UPSIDE is that the ST/DM/GM/Judge gets to control unruly PCs can Actually play the role of a 'god'...
Or 'God' almighy himself. All good if you trust your GMDMSTJUDGE, don't mind that you buddy may be a
Closet Meglo.

FURTHERMORE...
None of it adresses the Fact that, Assassins, Soldiers, and other combatants easily become the Most
skilled (and deadly) humans in our Real world, exceeding most other 'normal work a day' human, and even
groups like Police. Yet dispite this fact, they wpuld Never progress in FASERIP BOD as played, as they'd
lose all unbanked karma with each kill.
I don't know abput you, but I get better at Halo/Quake/Unreal/Tribes/CoD/MoH/Mech Warrior/LoL/ and
WoW when I kill stuff, not when I 'Herb Up' on skills!!!
It's just a fact, killing (murder or Not) is how some people Do infact get skilled in life. Not by buying your special
GF or BBBFFE flowers.

This is Where EP and Not Karma should come into play.

Well seeing as how soldiers and spies (and under certain cases assassins) are authorized by thier government ( who depending on your point of view gets its authority from God,) As they are acting as legitimat agents of said authority, it would ultimately be the person who isses those orders who loses the karma as opposed to tue soldier(spy assassin etc) who is following whar he beilieves to be legitimate orders. Now if he is goven an order he knows is wrong, (shooting pregnant women and children) and carries them out, then yeah karma loss definitely but causing tte death of an enemy in times of war, or if deputized by a place tthat has the death penalty and given such authority abd power to act on such (i.e. Dredd) then apply karma as usual. Maybe even give them a wee karma boost for bringing them in alive as oppposed to dead. If they have that authority so they dont abuse it.

It also depends on the setting you run too. It seems to me that logan and frank in hier settings still get karma for taking out the trash whereas whn they are on teamups they dont...

THE FIX...

ADD EP...
Use a standard EP system for advancing Skills/Talents/Powers/Etc...
Set up a simple system which awards you based solely on your usage
of those abilities which you have. Give bonuses for using them in creative ways.
EXAMPLE:
Simply used a power/talent/skill/attribute in practice-1 point per use, successful or
Not.
Using a Skill/Talent/Attribute in the midst of the Action of the Game-10 points per use.
Using an Ability (the above) in a creative yet done before way-25 points
Using an Ability in a truly helpful way-50 points.
Using an Ability in a New and Creative Way-100 points.
Using an Ability in a Groundbreaking, Creative, Game Enhancing, Life
Changing way-500 points!

Simply and easy!


KEEP KARMA
For Karmic kinds of situation like saving the 'damsel in distress', the 'bus load of
nuns', and pulling 'Timmy from that Well'. Also award it for truly playing in character
(See below)


ALIGNMENT...
Use the (gasp, can Not believe I an saying this) Palladium Books Alignment system...
Yes use it. D&D's system is just too unrealistic. Kevin S actually hit the nail on the head with his work on Alignments in RPG's. In the real word there is simply No such this as a Neutral Alignment! Only plants and the brain dead are That neutral.

So for the utter easy of simplicity sake use This to determine when a player should get Karma for playing in character. Force them to pick one of the allotted Alignments, then when they follow what is listed there, give them Karma. When they go against it, detract Karma!!!
That simple.
EXAMPLE: a Scrupulous Aligned PC shoots a pedestrian in the leg to get info on a villain⌠Negative Karma!
Same player saves that Civilian by taking a bullet for them✅ Positive Karma Award.
EX-2
An Unprincipled Aligned PC shoots a pedestrian in the leg to get info on a villain 🚫 No Karma!
Same player saves that Civilian by taking a bullet for them🚫No Karma Award.
Same player manipulates said Civilian into giving up the location of the villain ✅Positive Karma!
Same player sees Civilian Get shot. He swings into action, waiting for the shooter to leave and hovers over the (unconscious) civilian when he sees the police and others coming. He then takes credit for driving off the shooter and makes it look as though he risked life and limb to save the civilian✅ Positive Karma.
Same Player loses all his money on a bad betâŒ-Negative Karma.
Same Player jumps in the way of a bullet intended for that civilian. He gets shot and suffers HP and END loss. âŒNegative Karma equal to the HP loss x times the amount of END lost... A bad bet. "See! Being good doesn't pay off, it just gets you screwed over!" he says, as he sees this as Proof that being a goody goody is bad.

A Miscreant Aligned PC shoots a pedestrian in the leg to get info on a heroes whereabouts ✅Positive Karma!
Same player saves that Civilian by taking a bullet for them🚫Negative Karma Award.


SPENDING KARMA
Can be done to improve rolls, or it can be used as it Always has been used, just at x10 the normal cost.
Why that High, because getting Karma for giving Mary Jane flowers (a positive thing to do for Principled Parker) should have simply NO real impact on gaining Laser Beam Heat Vision. But it could be said that the feel good feeling may have alleviated some of his stress from that day and allowed Parker to 'Realize' that the beam cannon Doc Oct shot him with earlier in the day, charged him with rare 'Unrealiumium Energy', which gifts its' possessor with the ability to (if lucky) Realize their fullest potential in some wish fulfilling moment.
In this casr, EP would be inrealistic to spend to acquirer the power as, it is Totally out of the realm of powers Peter has ever truly exhibited. In This case the Karma cost would be normal (as per in the books) to acquire, as apposed to the x10 multiplier.

IF USED to bump up a pre-existing Sbility, 80% of the cost must first be footed by EP, then Karma may be spent (at x10 norm). And since you now can gain Karma easier and more realistically (due to you following personal codes of ethics, and not just FASERIP BOD Katma rules), this may not be soo bad of a deal.

This way it is not the Government issuing the order to kill that gets the Karma loss, but rather the persons (killing and giving the orders) alignment that determines IF and when Karma is lost. Just cuz you're given the go ahead to take out 'Osamad Bindy Laundren' by holy rightious order of your own (rather more corrupt) government, does not mean you feel it is right to do. Sure a Marine or SEAL would jump at the chance to kack the dude and legally (likely anyone would do for Shts & Grins with them), but maybe you're instead in the Army and feel the turd needs to First be brought to justice (if possible).
Now in that case, Your personal moral, ethical, or 'What's Icky or Not' code may be getting in your way, giving you self doubt, and in the end, if ordered to kill, would cost you Karma.


INCIDENTALLY...
In Karmic Law (Buddism & Hindu), killing for good guys, bad guys, the justified, the unjustified, the selfish, always seems to bring harm to the persons spiritual growth in some way... Even if you are evil incarnate. It may be small then, but it can still eat away at you. It's also likey that the victims final act was to claw at the soul of the person(s) that felt themselves to be the most cause for the victims death!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2014 07:21PM by Steeler49er.

BTW in the 'Days of Future Past' game scenario, the Karma rules were amended to take into account the fact that mutants were living under harsh circumstances, and couldn't be expected to adhere to the standards of ethics that Superheroes in the past (80's at that time) had to live upto.
This is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that Karma rules DO IN FACT CHANGE!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2014 07:21PM by Steeler49er.

FASERIP karma is based around "1940s/1950s American superhero comics" moral law.

Just follow the Judges Book, makes it so much easier when you try to follow the game, and not advancing when you kill people is an element that makes sets a difficulty level in this game. It is pretty integral, since you do not advance, or stunt or alter roles for FEATS if you don't have karma.

Not a moral complication as much as it is a choice you make, to play with karma or not. I've played both ways and the game is actually easier to play when you are not killing off characters. You also tend not to die as often if you can alter a saving roll.

But the first post was completely accurate: " It's your game. Run it the way you see fit." That Art Guy is so smart.

Steeler49er posted "BTW in the 'Days of Future Past' game scenario, the Karma rules were amended to take into account the fact . . ."

Yes. The individual Game Judge can dictate Karma as he or she sees fit , adjusting it to the type of campaign they are running. I have surmized that Karma is a tool that the Game Judge can use to have some modicum of control over the heroes's actions.

Karma is a drug. Once you have tasted it's rewards , for instance, altering an 01 to a 98, you like keeping a stash of it around.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2014 04:23AM by SecretDefender.

I have a house rule where the most karma one can spend to add to a dice roll is 40. This keeps the game from having constant 00 rolls, which get boring quickly in my experience.

Punstarr posted "I have a house rule where the most karma one can spend to add to a dice roll is 40"

Hmm. Interesting. I know that in there is a rule in books regarding that a villain can spend a maximum of 20 on any roll, and in another rule book where a villain may spend as much as they need too to save themselves, and I what I call the "Flat Forty Rule" where heroes can spend 40 karma and lower the color group by one level (red becomes yellow, green becomes white).

The only disadvantage to not having a limit on how much karma a hero can spend on a roll is that they can't squander it all as quickly.

For instance , a PC has 225 Karma going into the scenario. She is surrounded by three super villains. During combat she declares Karma for an attack roll where only a Red Typical FEAT will succeed (98+). Yep, you guessed it...she rolls a 01. 97 karma is spent leaving128.

If there was a "spending cap" not only would she have failed , but, only 10 Karma would have been lost for the declaration.

I don't think a spending cap on karma for heroes is a bad way to go, but the best to teach players about "karma economics" is to have they blow wads of it on a single roll.

Yeah, the best way to deal with karma hoarders is to put them in situations where they can't hoard if they want to survive.

I've never had problems with "karma hoarders" really, of course i always advise people to put 1/2 of thier karma into an advancement fund. That way they are sure of advancement and they still have karma for "emergency" situations. Of course it also helps i find to not be stingy with karma as well. If you give them karma, they will spend it. If they dont get much, then they tend to hoard it. I mean it is not as though advancement per the rules is a cheap process and will be automatic . Past a certain point, it wil take a long time to shift a column in terms of powers and abilities or purchasing new and (possibly related) powers.

As the judge, karma spending (and earning of course) is mainly in the purvey of the players (and the judge) but it should be a synergisic process, one that should be discussed prior to starting the campaign. Set your ground rules so there is no confusion to the hows and whats of karma and or house rules if any.

ThatArtGuy Wrote:
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> Yeah, the best way to deal with karma hoarders is
> to put them in situations where they can't hoard
> if they want to survive.

So just what exactly is wrong with someone 'hoarding' karma? It's not like there's some rule against it after all, they spent the time doing the right thing to earn it why should they be forced to spend it? Particularly when it costs so much to advance, unlike other RPG where you're always able to move forward (level draining monsters not-withstanding) as long as you're actively RPing. Marvel you have to hoard karma and carefully manage it if you ever want your character to grow and expand on its abilities rather than always be a newbie in game stats and abilities.

I guess it depends on your definition or perception of "hoarding" if i am saving all my karma for upgrading a stat or power in my mind i am not hoarding i am putting karma aside for advancement and as such may be willing to accept the die rols as they are and not use my karma to mod the dice. That is simply my playing style.

Conversely, if i am completely happyy with all my stats and abilities and powerlevels, then i may not want or feel the need for advancement. From that perspective, i can toss around all my karma cause i already have what i "need" so to speak.

Again ot also depends on how stingy the judge is with handing out karma in the first place. The less karma handed out i have found leads to more of a "hoarding" mentality.

Once karma is put into the karma bank, it can't be touched for die rolls. The only way to lose it is to kill another character, or to die yourself. I had a lot of fun with people who would hoard their karma to make sure that they had guaranteed successes. I fixed the problem by putting them in situations where they would have to spend the karma. It came down to tit-for-tat.

Basically, I have no problem with the person "keeping 100 karma in reserve" as they called it. I just make sure to put them in situations where they absolutely needed the auto-success. (Story-driven of course. I'm not a power-monger Judge.)

TAG

Doesn't that feel a bit like railroading? What's wrong with trying to keep around 100 (or X ammount) of karma in reserve for those just in case situations?

Some people (and i think rightly so) view karma as the "money" of the marvel game. As such its no surprise that they might or would treat it like money, not wanting to go below a certain level since there is no "karmic overdraft" on the "bank account".

Then, at that point, why keep the "auto-success" karma if you never had to use it? Like I said, it's always story-driven. I never look at a character's sheet and think, I need to take that karma away from them. I think of it more of, (Insert main villain here) is coming to down. They better think about using it.

TAG

Maybe its a comfort thing. One campaign i was playing in years back a fellow player's goal was to accumulate a reserve bank of 1000 karma on the off possibility that he might one day come across Mjolnir and be able to lift it.

We may never know exactly why individual players wish to have a certain ammoint of karma in the bank. Or for personal use. Of course if we act as judges it is up to us to find out what those motivations for our players are.