Marvel has lots of gods/godessess and god-like beings running around through the comics and we get to play them in our game but one rule for gods I never liked was how they lose power by trying to get people to worship them again. I'm sure there's a sound reasoning behind it, or a christian agenda of some sort but, what happens when you have a non-god character who has powers which would convince people they are gods?

Plague Carrier is the most obvious example of this type of character, a power rarely seen and usually only in villains. Now say you have a character with Plague Carrier and some healing power who decides to use his powers for the common good and goes hospital to hospital fixing up every one. While doing his good deeds, some one makes mention that "He must be the new Jesus" or some thing to that effect. Given his abilities, it wouldn't take much to convince people he is a god-like being and as it always goes, people would flock to him in search os a cure to their woes.

I'm sure this story line would attract other heroes and villains and perhaps a few of the godlings who walk our mortal world. I recall a villain named "The Answer" I think, from years back who has a sort of selection/nemisis power which instantly gave him the ability to deal with a given problem. It was uncontrolable for him and some mob guy came looking for him to cure their wife.

Now would this character suffer any lose in power for accepting the role others have given him? Is he no longer heroic because he's allowed people to think of him as a god?

And lastly, why is it you never see any one in the comics realise "Duh, that's a god standing there."? If Thor traveled to the area where he used to be worships, no one would realise who he was? Even if your religion is no longer worshiped, people decended from those who did would still know who you are. I'm not from egypt but if I saw Anubus walking down the street, I'd know who he was. I imagine with all of the super powered people running around in the marvel universe that its easy for folks to forget who the gods are, specially when they team wth other non-gods who are almost as strong as they are.

I usually look at it from the opposite spectrum. The reason Thor can be defeated by mortals [at least powerful ones] is his lack of active worship. It only makes sense to me that the more faith directed towards a diety, the more powerful they can become. it's because those pantheons have been pretty much abandoned that Thor's power level has gone to the 320 some odd level health he has.

I think the rule regarding worshippers was basically just to keep the players "real" and the characters "balanced", since it could make for difficult roleplaying with many Judges. Marvels gods, for the most part, are not actually going to become less powerful if they were to pursue worshippers, but conversely they will not become more powerful either (otherwise Neptune/Poseidon would probably be the most powerful god in the Greco/Roman pantheon as he still has active worshippers in the depths of Atlantis and Lemuria, and the Hindu pantheon, which has also been displayed in Marvel comics, would dwarf ALL others in power based on the millions of active worshippers in the world today). In the Marvel Universe, a gods power is not based upon their worshippers, it is more internallized, and although some of the Pantheons may have taken form based on the dreams and beliefs of mortal man, that was the extent of man's impact on the Gods. The only reason that they stopped actively seeking worshippers and interacting directly in a religious capacity wth mortals was due to the intervention of the Celestials. There are many demons however, whose power threshhold is based upon man's belief in them as "the ultimate evil". This has been the explananation for why Mephisto has been destroyed in the past and then reformed. Man's belief in him brought him back from oblivion. If a good DM is running the game, I don't see why this type of "god-worship" directed toward a player-character could not be used. I actually can see several interesting scenarios playing out in a campaign, and it would not be unprecedented based on comics lore, as this is what happened with Thor during "The Reigning" storyline.

In regards to the "balance" issue I raised above...I might add that since "character levels" aren't used in the MSHRPG as in many other RPG's, that term "balance" that many use to describe comparative character interactions and abilities really becomes a function of the Judge, and what he puts the characters up against, and also the players own ingenuity in using lower powered characters. It is not hardwired into this game as in many others, which depending on your perspective could be either a detriment or an advantage. I find it as an advantage and personally I PREFER taking lower tier characters and using them in innovative ways to compensate for their lack of raw power.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2008 11:02AM by Herbert Wyndham.

Just in response to your Neptune/Zues allegory. on face, it would seem that Neptune, indeed would be the most powerful olympian God due to his worship by the Atlanteans [even if Atlantis is currently destroyed]. However, consider this, Neptune still believes in Zeus as king of the gods, as well as all of the other gods on olympus and even the Olympians here on Earth. So perhaps that is why the olympian paradigm remains as it is, regardless of the beliefs of mortals.

Good point, got to consider the beliefs of the gods as well. Certainly not a stretch to imagine that they'd send devotional power to a higher god that they supported and would proportionally send greater power than a mortal would.

It would be feasible, that is true, but only if Marvel gods actually received power in this manner, which as stated in various places, the Marvel gods DO NOT. Even if that was the way Marvel gods received their power, it also is somewhat debunked by the fact that as I said, The Hindu pantheon does not dwarf the other Earthly pantheons and their religion consists of far more gods than the Asgardian pantheon AND active human worship to boot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2008 01:26PM by Herbert Wyndham.

We just haven't seen them. Doesn't mean they aren't there.

Getting back to my example though, what would you say to a non-god hero posing as a god? Doctor Doom has magic in addition to technology and although it would be out of character for him currently to claim himself a god, were he to gain say the silver surfer's power or the Infinity Gauntlet or one of a hundred other super powered items/energies, he might be more inclined to do so.

There's a few other characters who come to mind who, given the right item or power, would act in a "I am a god" manner. Spider-Man once had the Captain ummm... some one power which jumps from person to person to save people. In a what if comic, he kept that power. He broke in a kidnapped Thor, flew him over to some third world country and told him to make it rain while he transported rich soil in to replace the poor soil they had so food could grow there because his spider sense linked with the power he'd gotten and was driving him nuts because it detected trouble and suffering all over the world. Thor refused and told Spidey that gods allow people to help themselves with guidance. Spider-Man told Thor he was a crappy god and started beating the heck out of him before a Doctor Doom robot showed up with a weapon which sucked power out of people.

Read through the What If comics and you'll see many examples of characters gaining power and trying to redo the world in their ideal of peace. Professor X got the Juggernaunt's power in one insted of his step brother and then insted of training mutants for peace as he did in our comics, he broke in on the world leaders during a meeting and told them how things would be from now on.

Now these are extreme examples of being a god but, as I said with the healing and plague carrier, how would you handle a non-god being called a god and then playing along with it because he thinks its for the best of the people, doing his good deeds as usul and trying to be a symble. You know, like Captain America?

"We just haven't seen them. Doesn't mean they aren't there."

So your going to base the evidence to support a point, on pure supposition. Besides the fact that as I stated MARVEL GODS DO NOT RECIEVE POWER IN THIS WAY. The following is a line taken directly form the Handbooks, from the fourth paragraph, under the entry for GODS:

"Mankind's worship of the gods does not appear to affect a given god's (or pantheon's) existance or store of superhuman energy. (This contrasts with demonic beings such as Dormammu, who will often drain portions of the life forces of their worshippers to increase their own power; see Demons, Dormammu). If this were the case, a god such as Thor who has very few active worshippers today could not be as powerful as he is if he were dependent on belief in him to sustain his might."

This idea has also been reiterated in the actual comics themselves in the past. Postulating on ideas when certain aspects of the Marvel Universe are yet to be revealed is one thing (such as...was their a multiverse that existed BEFORE the one that Galactus came from, or was his the first round of creation). This is something that has not been touched on, so is easily open to debate based on theory. However when something has been firmly stated as fact than that is simply the way it is, there is no debate. It's akin to arguing that the world is not round, when it has been well established that the world is indeed round.

Well don't forget that in the What-If where Thor met Conan we have Crom specifically stating to Thor that the reason he was so weak was a direct result of his being so far back in time from the age he was worshipped in and being in another age where other gods held sway. That would seem to mean that there is some connection of the two even if it isn't extremely high.

Back to the main point though, I think that it would be interesting to play up the dependance of the "god" heroes worshippers. How people begin to look for him for direct guidance in their every day life. Suddenly people no longer want to make decisions on their own because that might not be the way that (he) would do it. Parents may not want to bring ther children in to their doctor to receive basic medical attention and instead attempt to drive their children accross the country to have (him) save the child. What if the delay causes a more serious illness or death? What if people began to quite their jobs to follow the hero around and spread "his" word as disciples? I could see quite a few scenarios to throw at players to make them question their own motivation and if they decide that they do not want the burden of responsibility upon them, how do they dissuade their followers to stop?

But this also would most likely be an allegorical reference made by Crom, to explain a one time plot device to reduce Thor's power enough so that Conan could actually contend with him. Thor has, on multiple occasions traveled thru time to periods before the worship of the Norse pantheon and to times far, far later and has not had any decrease in his abilities from being "outside" the time period of his worship, this would greatly call into doubt any one-time occurance. Also, What-If stories do not make a good basis for any arguments since often they differ greatly from what has been established in the 616 universe, often on far more levels than the supposed point of divergence. There was also an issue of What-If in which Korvac did not "kill" himself and instead turned the Avengers into his vassals for universal conquest. During the story several of the great powers of the universe align against him, among whom is the Stranger. When the Stranger attacks, Korvac uses his powers to break the unity between the many individual beings that comprised the Stranger's form, into their individual and much less powerful forms, and kills them. But it has been shown in the 616 universe that the Stranger is not actually a gestalt form and that it was simply a lie that he told to the Overmind, and that he was acting on behalf of another being whom the Stranger had accidently killed (I'm sure you remember the Quasar stories as we've debated them before). So even though the world in that What-If was diverged from supposedly the point at which the Avengers attacked Korvac, obviously the divisions run much deeper.

Well we also have to consider that the Stranger's history is still not certain, his very nature is mystery after all, and nothing says Korvac lacked the power to make a lie reality and forcibly break the Stranger down into weaker beings. With the retcon for the creation of the Korvac Quest in the annuals you also end up with the real divergence being Galactus not using the Ultimate Nullifier to target Korvac for some reason so he doesn't fake a suicide and carries out his plans (if you ever read the Your Favorites I even make use of that nullified reality with one character, Scavenger). Some what-if's also suffered from retcons by later writers for 616 continuity (retconning the relationship of Johnny Storm and Alicia Masters to make it a skrull which threw off the What-if for Inferno that came out before the retcon showing Alicia giving birth to Johnny's child). Given that the Hyborian age is in pre-history where a relative small pantheon of gods exists the overall belief could have made it hostile to someone like Thor, unlike with many of the other time-periods Thor has visited where acceptance of other pantheons is more common. There's also the idea that the gods can reinforce themselves to some degree which is why they aren't dependent on worship from mortals for power but it doesn't mean that they can't benefit from it somehow. No reason why gods can't if demons can. Likely the severance of close ties to Earth and the mystical/spiritual distancing from mankind is why they don't have greater power in general. It's been established that the gods certainly do hear worshippers prayers after all (Odin providing the last living Norseman the chance to die a warrior alongside Thor for example) so if they're hearing prayers they must have some connection to any who worship them even if its tenuous.

But as someone who is an extreme adherent to continuity and order, I (as well as Marvel's editorial staff) will always overlook extraneous one-time plot devices as due to some other unknown element, in favor of the overall weight of canonical evidence and editorial decree. We have the advantage of living in a period in which many of the abilities of our favorite characters have actually been quantified and explained, so portrayal of these characters is for the most part better and more consistant (still not perfect by any means). But prior to the mid 80's most of these characters were written with just a rough sense of what they could do, but nothing concrete. Because of this you have these stories that pop up all the time back then, where writers would pull out a plot-device on a whim and it would be used for one story and never touched on again. With the release of the Deluxe Edition Handbook, and after, the relationship between the gods and their worshippers was established. The Conan/Thor issue was released before the time when the gods were fully fleshed out in the Handbooks and this story falls under this one-time plot device category, and it is the ONLY time this supposition has been made concerning him.

Indeed the Stranger is an unknown in many areas, but their are many areas in which we do know him. But as evidenced in the Silver Surfer series The Living Tribunal does know his origins, and if that were the case he would have known in the divergent universe also and he made no indication of surprise or bewilderment at this form of attack. Why would the Stranger be forced into multiple individuals? Just because he once told a lie to the FF and the Overmind? If he was not actually composed of them as we know now, it doesn't seem a logical form of attack to me, (and if it was a logical attack, why not use it against any of the others). Although the actions and motivations of many cosmic entities is indeed an enigma, that seems to be a stretch, searching for an iota of reason were there is none. But you went on to point out another divergence in the What-If series that simply reinforced MY position that any stories that occur in them cannot be used as the basis for argument concerning 616 continuity. It does not matter if the alteration in history arises form a retcon, since once information is gleaned at a later date, it still should logically be mirrored and apply in the divergent Eath, as long as the newly divulged information was or would have been true prior to the point of divergence. But, since this is not always the case, and once a story has been published you cannot change that alternate Earth to suddenly reflect the new info discovered on Earth 616, it leaves all What-If Earth's histories as questionable as reference material.

I would also simply say that despite the fact that they do not draw power from their worshippers, they would logically have an affinity to them, probably based on some mystical premise where indeed Odin could hear Eiliefs (not sure of spelling, haven't pulled that one out in a while) prayers, but that would be the extent of it. Basically, a form of telepathy. No different than the fact that Prof. X, as has often been depicted, would be more attuned to his students thoughts from a distance as opposed to anybody elses. He would hear that students thoughts and they would cut through the morass of ambient thoughts, since they were attuned to him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2008 01:56AM by Herbert Wyndham.

Well, since every one wants to keep going with the gods get power from thing, let me point out that the gods we have now in the game have that level of power because every one where they come from has it. It's a racial thing based on the land they lived in. We've seen the effvect going to the place of the gods has on super powered characters. I read one where a bunch of the younger x-men went to Thor's home world and Sunspot got much stronger due to the sun there. In the newer comics, the young x-men now went to hell I think and Rockslide gained new power from the land there which he lost when he returned home.
Its sort of like the Body Adaption power from the UPB, you get power similar to the natives because every one there has them.

SOOOOO... To give my reasoning, the reason there are so many gods is because they exist because a unified force of will of their worshipers braught them into existance believing they created every thing and once they were no longer worshipped, they settled into the power levels they have now because that's the lower limits of what people's imaginations allowed them to be. They became indipendant beings which no longer require followers to exist and thus are not effected by the mortal world in any way. Attempts to rekindle worship weaken them because its a player based rule to prevent complications in the game mechanics. Or you could say by making people remember the old gods, it brings into question if they exist and how they came to be which alters the force of will which made them to begin with, thus messing with their level of existance. Since they have been detatched from their followers for so long they can not reconnect with them do to their indipendance from them as well as other cosmic forces of greater power.

Now with that said, would any one think it fun to play a series of missions based on a NPC hero/villain with powers which let them seem to be a god who is traveling the country converting people into followers? How would your players handle that? Specially when other heroes and villains start showing up either to join that god-ling, steal his powers, beat him down for what he represents, or other plots?

I was goig to start a new thread for people to post home grown adventures and ideas for adventures but I don't know how may people have sat down and wrote one out fully, or who have them on their PCs so they could just copy and paste them over.

Yes, I had said above, in between responses to the other issue, that I think it would be quite interesting, and presened a few scenarios. I am all for it. I expect that it would be a great opportunity for some REAL roleplaying as opposed to many Judges/DM who present players with an endless slugfest and call it a campaign.

Quote
Herbert Wyndham
"Mankind's worship of the gods does not appear to affect a given god's (or pantheon's) existance or store of superhuman energy. (This contrasts with demonic beings such as Dormammu, who will often drain portions of the life forces of their worshippers to increase their own power; see Demons, Dormammu). If this were the case, a god such as Thor who has very few active worshippers today could not be as powerful as he is if he were dependent on belief in him to sustain his might."

Dos not appear. Key phrase that opens anything up to change and reinterpretation. The defense rests.

"Dos not appear. Key phrase that opens anything up to change and reinterpretation. The defense rests."

I'm glad that we agree. Your statement was not really a defense, nor was it actually contradictory to what I said. On the contrary it was quite complimentary. Yes, it says "appear"..but in the full body of the text from which it is taken it is presented as "facts as we know them". No different than if I were to say that the sky "appears" to be blue, the Earth "appears" to be round, the stars "appear" to shine, or that China "appears" to have recently suffered from a massive earthquake. Does the use of the word leave open the possibility that a writer at a later date could change that by cementing the opposite into canon by working it into a story line....yes. As I stated, this issue has been touched on in other places besides just the write up. The write-up gives a good starting point for fact but the weight of evidence has to come from the myriad number of stories that have been presented in which it has not been the case where any Earthly gods have or did receive power form their previous worshippers, and it is the books themselves that will inevitably always trump what you or I think the answer SHOULD be, and the simple fact remains that at this time the facts as presented within the books themselves have shown that THE GODS DID NOT RECEIVE POWER IN THIS WAY.

And mortal observations of the devine are always utterly correct and inviolate, right? Hell mortal observations of the world around us which can be measured and categorized are always correct and never get readdressed or even flat out contradicted, right?

Sorry dude, but just because a handbook said it somewhere doesn't make it carved in stone and irreversible. A handbook once said that Magneto's only given name was Magnus, and that's not even the case. The point is it might not have seemed at the time of publication that worship had any correllation to a given god or their pantheon's power, but that's not in any way difinitive. Human kind can only speculate to the cultures of antiquity based on archaeolgical research and study, but that doesn't make it 100% accurate or comprehensively known. but somehow, someway, human kind has a total and definitive understanding of Gods? you can't possibly be serious.

Did you actually read the last respnse? I have to wonder since your response seems a bit redundant and unnecessary since my last response, in plain english, STATED THE EXACT SAME THING. I guess I will repeat this for, what is in essence, the third time: The handbooks are a good starting point for facts that are known "up to this point" but the weight of evidence from the STORIES is what ultimately counts, so as soon as some stories are written in which the gods did or do receive power from their worshippers, than that would be the basis for the facts as we know them and would supersede what had been shown before. at this point that has yet to happen. Sorry.

By the way Magneto's name is in fact: Eric MAGNUS Lehnsherr. , My point being that it presented what was known at the time, but it was not contrary information.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2008 08:01AM by Herbert Wyndham.

Quote
herbert whyndham
and the simple fact remains that at this time the facts as presented within the books themselves have shown that THE GODS DID NOT RECEIVE POWER IN THIS WAY.

Said the same thing I did, eh? Fact is, that Nightmask pointed out an actual comic where your position was contradicted, but you pooh-pooh'd that right away. But my contention is that the case isn't clear and has been and continues to be open to interpreation. But expressing you point in caps, and making assertions and jargon that would infer your point is invariably correct, but then backpedal when it gets brought up that the issue is more vague and use language that permutates your position to include mine as well is just poor argumentation.

Either way, what difference does it make? it's comic books, what with their interpetive mythology, fuzzy science, and changing of creative teams, nothing is /ever/ set in stone.

I brought up the fact that it was in a What-if story and as reference material was suspect, as he himself inadvertantly pointed out in his response. The overall weight of evidence must be taken from 616 continuity to be taken literallly. So I did not pooh-pooh him as you so eloquently put it. I at no point backpedaled either. I have stated that it is fact. But, it is fact "as we know it now". These are comics that is true and yes, it could be changed in the future by some writer who chooses to do so but until that time this is the way things are or at least have been presented. I don't really see what the comprehension problem is. According to the new Spider-man continuity he was not married to Mary Jane and Harry Osborne did not die, yet if two years ago, I were arguing that they were married and Harry Osborne had died I would be right. How is this such a difficult concept to grasp. Comic reality is what has been presented upto that point, but being fictional it is malleable. But we cannot simply go about NOT believeing anything that is presented in the stories at this point because someone might change it at a later date. No matter how small the change in background or history, this is why people get annoyed at the concept of RetCons, since they rob you of what you have come to know as fact in the past.

I would like to apologize to Killjoy for this topic getting so far off of what he intended.

Herbert Wyndham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But as someone who is an extreme adherent to
> continuity and order, I (as well as Marvel's
> editorial staff) will always overlook extraneous
> one-time plot devices as due to some other unknown
> element, in favor of the overall weight of
> canonical evidence and editorial decree.

I think you're giving Marvel's staff too much credit. Though the bit about "editorial decree" does ring horribly true (One More Day should -- based on Parker's character -- have not happened, and only did so because of Quesada's decree to have them split in a non-divorcing way [b/c showing kids divorce is bad, but showing them Faustian pacts is okay]; ditto for Hawkeye's suicidal stupidity and Wanda's craziness in Avengers Disassembled, she'd already dealt with losing her kids [as well as anyone can deal with such a loss] so overhearing Wasp say she'd once had kids should not have sent her to the Dark Side).

My comprehension is just fine. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you arrogant p***k.



Herbert Wyndham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I brought up the fact that it was in a What-if
> story and as reference material was suspect, as he
> himself inadvertantly pointed out in his response.
> The overall weight of evidence must be taken from
> 616 continuity to be taken literallly. So I did
> not pooh-pooh him as you so eloquently put it. I
> at no point backpedaled either. I have stated that
> it is fact. But, it is fact "as we know it now".
> These are comics that is true and yes, it could be
> changed in the future by some writer who chooses
> to do so but until that time this is the way
> things are or at least have been presented. I
> don't really see what the comprehension problem
> is. According to the new Spider-man continuity he
> was not married to Mary Jane and Harry Osborne did
> not die, yet if two years ago, I were arguing that
> they were married and Harry Osborne had died I
> would be right. How is this such a difficult
> concept to grasp. Comic reality is what has been
> presented upto that point, but being fictional it
> is malleable. But we cannot simply go about NOT
> believeing anything that is presented in the
> stories at this point because someone might change
> it at a later date. No matter how small the change
> in background or history, this is why people get
> annoyed at the concept of RetCons, since they rob
> you of what you have come to know as fact in the
> past.
>
> I would like to apologize to Killjoy for this
> topic getting so far off of what he intended.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing. I do have a problem with the way you have characterized my argument though. I don't think your comprehension of my point is fine as I have stated my belief several times and you have yet to have responeded as if you know where I am coming from. I beleive comic book continuity and history is fact as presented up until a later story or RetCon invalidates it or changes it. I believe in the facts as they have been written up until that moment. If writers then change that background or history, than my belief's and understanding must change to include the new and revised information. Such as the new Spider-man continuity.

I will also add that it is obvious that if this whole debate has devolved to the point of name calling and underhanded barbs (which I am also guilty of the latter), that it is past time to call it finished. I do not want to be responsible for making these boards a hostile and uncomfortable place for others to visit, and I have let it become that. To others reading through this....my apologies.

Hmmm, well you're wrong as nothing in my post regarding the what-if is invalid since a what-if by definition is a branch from an existing event WITH ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL (all caps since you seem to like that). The only divergence for that what-if was Thor going back into the past farther than any other god was known to have gone and clearly suffered weakness due to being so cut off from his period and in one where other more powerful gods held sway. As Capo and others have pointed out continuity at marvel is in no way set in stone (much as we wish it would be) and is more and more tattered as they treat it as something to discard like DC already has. The use of 'appears to be' in the text on gods is standard 'waffling' language for when someone comes along if a writer shows a god clearly gaining power from worship Marvel can go 'see we only said appeared to not gain power from worship, we never said they definitely didn't'. Given we've seen mortals gaining power from worship or certain emotional states from other mortals the idea the gods can't is a stretch.

Gentleman,

Please keep it civil.

Thank you.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Some what-if's also suffered from retcons by later
> writers for 616 continuity (retconning the
> relationship of Johnny Storm and Alicia Masters to
> make it a skrull which threw off the What-if for
> Inferno that came out before the retcon showing
> Alicia giving birth to Johnny's child).


Although, I had wished to divorce myself of this unending debate now that it has regressed to the unbelievable low point that it has......I am not simply going to sit back and be made out to look like a liar.

The above was part of your earlier post and it clearly refers to the fact that many What-If's have continuity issues due to later events in 616 continuity...how can you then argue that they are sound resources form which to garner usable information from when refering to 616, when there are so often issues that don't correlate to later 616 events. Just imagine the outcome of Secret Invasion, and how long Skrull sleeper agents have been on earth waiting to reveal themselves, what if some of them have been on Earth for years. When this comes to light, how many more issues of What-If will this also cause a problem for when comparing to 616 continuity. As for continuity not being set in stone......I am one of those who had implied that repeatedly. But, the continuity you are given is what history and background are derived from until some writer surprises us with a serious turn-around that reshapes the familiar landscapes that we know. Until that happens though, what we have been shown thus far....is the way it is.

Well okay that seemed pointless. I've no clue where you felt you were being made out to be a liar by that smaller section of my overall post. What-ifs reflect what was accepted at the time and no amount of retcons afterwards invalidates what they represent for the period up to that point. Even later retcons don't necessarily negatively impact the what-if or make events not happen in it. Dazzler becoming Galactus' herald doesn't mean Secret Wars didn't happen in that timeline pretty much as it did in 616 continuity, or even Annhiliation for that matter, only that she survived and remained his Herald till Time's end. There has been nothing since that Thor What-If that directly contradicts the idea that a god removed enough in time from the period within which it held power will suffer massive losses of power, rendering them relatively mortal. Even if a god doesn't directly derive power from worship or belief it still might be necessary for them to exist at a certain level and without it they drop considerably.

The occasional mortal shown to be able to gain power from worship could qualify as a transistional being even, via mutation or something else drawing strength from belief to become more than his mortal beginnings and if it went on long enough reach a stable plateau he'd remain at even without constant worship (plus it's not impossible that just knowing about a godly being from history texts could help provide that belief energy even if one didn't directly believe, just like Mephisto regenerates from apparent destruction because so many humans believe evil is eternal even if he isn't the evil that they're thinking of).