Hello, all. Before we get into this, I would like to recognize David Martin's work contained in the Ultimate Powers Book as exceptional, though a few Powers could use detail or two. About a year ago, I rolled a character with this power, and it has always bothered me. I played through three campaigns with him, always frustrated with this power, as there were no descriptions of the power's mechanics short of breaking objects. I would think of this power for a few minutes every day for over a year, finally arriving at the following conclusion:

Martial Supremacy — Rewrite

The Martial Arts Supremacy Power (F2) listed in the Ultimate Powers Book has a generous description, detailing a fantastic power, but the variations thereof lack the distinct, individual mechanics to differentiate them from each other or make to make them a useful part of a hero’s arsenal. This is my attempt to add substance to the Power.

Contained in the following definition the specific Martial Arts A-E are referred to as “Powers” and their associated Ranks are referred to as Power Ranks. This delineation of Martial Arts Supremacy incorporates relevant Power Ranks for both Martial Arts Supremacy and the associated Martial Arts Power.

A player may not choose more than one Martial Arts Power A—C, but may elect to pair Martial Arts A—C with Martial Arts D and/or E. Treat Martial Supremacy and a single selection of a complimentary Martial Arts Power (A-E) as one power, though with separate Power Ranks, comprising a single Power Slot. Selecting any of the Martial Arts Powers under the Martial Supremacy Power Set, includes the corresponding Martial Arts (A-E) Talent as a Bonus. Bonus* means it does not count against a PC's Talent Slots. All Power Stunts should be rolled at Martial Supremacy Rank.

Martial Arts A — Once a hero with this form of Martial Supremacy lands a heavy blow on an opponent, he smells blood in the water and becomes far more deadly. Scoring a Slam or Stun result, whether or not the Slam/Stun is resisted, triggers this version of Martial Arts Supremacy. In a round subsequent to which a PC scores a Slam or Stun on an opponent, perform a check at Martial Arts Supremacy Power Rank in the non-combat phase of the Round. Success means all subsequent attacks against that opponent are performed at Fighting Rank Number + Martial Supremacy Rank Number for damage modified by Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts A Rank Number and resolve Attack results on Edged Attack Column.

Example: Iron Wolf has a Fighting Rank of Remarkable, Strength of Excellent and has Martial Supremacy of Incredible and Martial Arts A of Remarkable. He is in a fight with Scorpion and scores a Slam, which Scorpion checks and resists. In the next Round's pre-combat roll, the player rolls a check at Incredible and achieves a green result. The player now adds Iron Wolf's Remarkable (30) Fighting to the Martial Supremacy Power Rank of Incredible (40) for an effective Fighting Rank of Monstrous (70). In the next attack sequence Iron Wolf scores two strikes against Scorpion for Amazing (50) Edged Damage, calculated by Excellent (20) Strength plus Remarkable (30) Martial Arts A.


Optional Powers: Regeneration, Martial Arts D, Martial Arts E

Martial Arts B — This form of the Martial Supremacy greatly increases a hero’s efficiency and accuracy in hand-to-hand combat. At the beginning of a battle in the non-combat phase of the Round perform a check at Martial Supremacy Rank. Success means all unarmed Fighting FEATs, including Evasion, against that opponent in the present Round and all subsequent Rounds are performed at an intensity equal to Fighting Rank Number + Martial Arts B Rank Number + Martial Supremacy Rank Number for an amount of damage equal to Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts B Rank Number. If the Martial Supremacy check fails in the first Round of combat, a PC with this version of Martial Supremacy can attempt the check in the non-combat phase of each subsequent Round with the same opponent(s) until a Green Result or better is achieved. Once the Martial Supremacy check is successful, the Martial Arts B Power functions as described above, regardless of the Round in which it becomes active.

If the PC is engaged with multiple enemies, a check at Martial Supremacy Power Rank must be conducted individually for each enemy.

Optional Power: Body Resistance, Martial Arts D, Martial Arts E

Martial Arts C — This form of Martial Arts Power is probably the least sexy, but perhaps the most effective, as it does not depend on checks, timers or triggers. When a hero with this form of Martial Supremacy performs a Grappling attempt, add the hero’s Strength Rank Number, Martial Arts C Rank Number, and Martial Supremacy Rank Number to determine base Strength for Grappling attempts, which can be modified further by the Wrestling Talent, but does not stack with the Martial Arts C Talent, as the Martial Arts C Talent’s effects are taken into account within this definition of the Martial Arts C Power. Shift Green Results by one color.

Grappling Damage is determined as follows: Strength Rank Number + Martial Supremacy Rank Number (or +1CS, whichever is greater). Consider a Red Result a strangulation, necessitating a Stun check at -2CS Endurance if the hero’s Hold inflicts damage on the opponent. If no damage was inflicted due to defensive powers, a Stun check at normal Endurance is still needed.

The Martial Arts C Power grants bonuses to Agility FEATs for the purposes of Dodging as follows: Agility Rank Number (or other, i.e. Danger Sense) + Martial Arts C Rank Number + Martial Supremacy Rank Number to determine the base Rank Number for Dodging, which can be increased by Talents.

Example: Power Bomb is engaged with the Hobgoblin. Power Bomb has the Wrestling Talent and has Good (10) Strength, Excellent (20) Agility, and possesses Martial Supremacy at Remarkable (30) and Martial Arts C at Incredible (40). In the first Round of combat, Hobgoblin wins the Initiative and attacks with his razor bats, inflicting Good (10) Damage on the hero. Power Bomb attempts to tackle the Hobgoblin from his glider as the villain passes. Power Bomb’s Strength (10) is added to his Martial Supremacy (30) and his Martial Arts C (40), which results in a base Strength Rank Number of Monstrous (70). This is modified +2CS for Power Bomb’s Wrestling Talent to Shift-X. The player rolls 83, a Red Result. Hobgoblin is tackled from his glider and takes Incredible Damage, subtracting 20 for his body armor. The Red Result necessitates an Endurance FEAT from Hobgoblin at an Endurance penalty of (-2CS). Hobgoblin achieves a Green Result, meaning he is stunned for a round. Power Bomb can maintain his hold on Hobgoblin, or elect to attack him in some other way while he is unconscious.

Optional Power: Resist Physical Damage, Martial Arts D, Martial Arts E

Martial Arts D — This form of Martial Supremacy allows the hero to bypass an opponent’s defenses, attacking an enemy’s weak points during hand-to-hand combat. After two Rounds of combat with the same opponent, perform a check at Martial Supremacy Rank. In case of failure, the check can be made in each subsequent Round. Success means a vast reduction of your opponent's defenses: D1/Body Armor (Artificial) Rank Number is reduced by the greater of Martial Supremacy or Martial Arts D Rank Number. P1/Armor Skin, P2/Body Resistance, and D15/Resistance to Physical Attack are reduced by the lesser of Martial Supremacy or Martial Arts D Rank Number. P14/True Invulnerability is reduced by one-half of the lesser of Martial Arts Supremacy Rank Number or Martial Arts D Rank Number.

The PC's can develop Power Stunts to affect Reflection and Force Fields as follows:

- D10/Reflection Power Rank Number is reduced by Martial Supremacy Power Rank and Damage Reflection accuracy is reduced Martial Arts D Rank Number.

- D2/Force Fields and D7/Force Field vs. Physical Attack — The hero can attempt to trigger Force Field overload by adding the Martial Supremacy and Martial Arts D Power Rank Numbers to the hero’s Strength Rank Number.


Optional Powers: Martial Arts A, B or C, Martial Arts E, Armor Skin

Martial Arts E — This form of Martial Supremacy allows quick striking and the necessary footwork to deliver rapid combinations. Initiative bonus is determined by the following: Martial Supremacy Rank Number + Martial Arts E Rank Number + Intuition (or appropriate substitute) Rank Number. In addition to a healthy Initiative bonus, this form of Martial Supremacy allows far more melee attacks (Armed Edged or Blunt, Unarmed or with Natural Weaponry) per Round than a hero’s normal capability. Determine the maximum limit of multiple Fighting Attacks per round for heroes with Martial Supremacy E by adding Fighting Rank Number (modified by applicable Talents, dependant upon the method of attack), Martial Supremacy Rank Number, and Martial Arts E Rank Number.

Example: The Black Brawler is in a scrap with Sabertooth. Black Brawler's Good (10) Intuition combined with his Excellent (20) Martial Supremacy and Incredible (40) Martial Arts E to give him an effective Intuition of Monstrous (70) for the purposes of determining the Initiative, good for +5 to his Initiative roll, giving him a +1 advantage to Sabretooth's Amazing (50) Intuition. Black Brawler has Remarkable (30) Fighting, but also possesses Martial Arts B and Boxing, shifting his Fighting to Amazing (46). Add the Martial Supremacy Excellent (20) Power Rank to Martial Arts E Incredible (40) Power Rank and Fighting (46) Rank to determine the effective rank of Unearthly (106), which allows Black Brawler to attempt 4 unarmed slugfest attacks in a single round with a yellow result, 3 with a green result, or two automatically. Black Brawler's Attacks would still be rolled under his Fighting of Remarkable, shifted +2CS for his Boxing and Martial Arts B Talents and penalized -1CS for the multiple attacks, finally rolled at Incredible Intensity Fighting. In other words, though the Martial Arts E version of Martial Supremacy allows for a huge Initiative advantage and a multiple Attack bonus, it does not affect the PC's Fighting Intensity for actual attacks.

Optional Powers: Martial Arts A, B or C, Martial Arts D, Natural Weaponry

hmm, i hate to stunt your creativity; but other than to increase the power of the PC - arguably unfairly for a single power slot - Im not sure I see the point to this

Can you explain to me in more detail what the problem was with the original power? As I recall, it turns a talent roll or effect (based on FASEstats + Skill) into a stand alone power at (FASEstat+Skill+ PowerRank#... I dont have much problem with this (though admittedly the initiative and see through armour variants of the original rules do need a little work!)

from a GMs point of view, I would allow most of your re-write of the power as power stunts (probably with -CS), however I would be reluctant to simply allow these changes to the base power.

Agreed. These would make fine power stunts with negative CS modifier.

A cynic shows at every party. Welcome, Nik. Please, don't relieve yourself in the punch bowl.

Quote

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hmm, i hate to stunt your creativity; but other
> than to increase the power of the PC - arguably
> unfairly for a single power slot - Im not sure I
> see the point to this

You either glossed over or did not recognize my opening statement. I covered the "point" to this in the opening of my initial post:

Quote

The Martial Arts Supremacy Power (F2) listed in the Ultimate Powers Book has a generous description, detailing a fantastic power, but the variations thereof lack the distinct, individual mechanics to differentiate them from each other or make to make them a useful part of a hero’s arsenal. This is my attempt to add substance to the Power.

As to the "fairness" of my re-write, each of my incarnations of the Martial Supremacy Powers have limitations: "A" relies on a trigger and a check, "B" relies on a check, "C" - okay, my variant of this power could be a little overpowered…make it a 2 slot power or perhaps tweak it a bit, "D" has a 2 round time limit and a check, "E" has a limitation in that it grants an Initiative Bonus and Multiple Attack Bonus, but no bonus during the actual attacks. Also, to ensure no PC would use a combination of the most powerful incarnations (A-C) to become a melee monster, I placed another restriction within the definition of only allowing a player to pick one of the Martial Arts A-C.

Quote

> Can you explain to me in more detail what the
> problem was with the original power? As I recall,
> it turns a talent roll or effect (based on
> FASEstats + Skill) into a stand alone power at
> (FASEstat+Skill+ PowerRank#... I dont have much
> problem with this (though admittedly the
> initiative and see through armour variants of the
> original rules do need a little work!)

Okay, here is the definition of Martial Arts Supremacy per the Ultimate Powers Book:

Quote
From Ultimate Powers Book
the
MARVEL SUPER HEROES game system
Fighting is considered an Ability, not a
Power. However, this Power increases a
hero's already-mastered Martial Arts (a
Talent in the game system) to
dramatically higher levels and allows him
to perform actions that would otherwise
be impossible, like splitting a battleship in
two with a single karate chop.

Wonderful. It sounds like a really useful power.

Below are the mechanics. Nowhere does it suggest "a stand alone power at (FASEstat+Skill+ PowerRank#". You must have assumed these mechanics, as they are not delineated or even implied.

Quote
From Ultimate Powers Book
The player chooses one of the above Martial Arts and determines its rank when he creates the hero. When this Power shows up, add its Power rank
number to the already determined Talent rank number. For example, the Kung Fu Kommando possesses Martial Arts E at Typical rank and Martial Arts Supremacy at Good
rank. These combine to give Kung Fu Kommando an Excellent rank for his Martial Arts. Martial Arts Supremacy can be used to do rank-level damage against non-living matter. For example, Kung Fu Kommando can shatter iron, concrete, or bullet-proof glass with a red Power rank FEAT. If desired, this Power can be modified to fit any Fighting skill the prayer can imagine. This can include Supremacy in any one weapon, such as swordsmanship or archery.

So, as I read the above delineation of the mechanics it allows a PC with Martial Arts E (The Talent version allows for a +1 Initiative Bonus) to combine the Power Rank Good and Sub Power Rank Typical for the purpose of doing rank-level (Excellent) damage to non-living matter… This doesn't stick in your craw? It makes no sense to me. So, Kung Fu Kommando has an Excellent Rank for his Martial Arts… Okay… So? So what? What the hell does that even mean? Can he perform unarmed melee attacks at Excellent Rank? What if the Kung Fu Kommando's Fighting is already higher than his Martial Arts Rank of Excellent? Are you supposed to give him a bonus to his Fighting Attacks in that case? Does the PC have to perform a Power Stunt to receive said bonus? The power is seeming less and less useful now (my opinion).


Let's say another hero has Martial Arts Supremacy at Excellent Rank, Martial Arts A at Good Rank, for a Remarkable Rank for his Martial Arts. He can also do rank level damage to non-living matter. Wonderful. How does that differentiate the Martial Arts A from E variants? IT DOES NOT. Get it? There is no differentiation of the Martial Arts A-E contained within the definition. That is not an opinion… That is a fact.

Therefore the players and judges have to create ways to use this power in combat, where it is obviously intended to be used as it is called Martial Arts Supremacy, as the powers are completely lacking in (READ CLOSELY) distinct, individual mechanics for each variant of the Martial Arts Supremacy Power.

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Thrudjelmer
> Agreed. These would make fine power stunts with
> negative CS modifier.

I am having a hard time understanding why you and Nik would rather list these as power stunts and apply a -1CS penalty, when all but the "C" variants of these powers require "Checks" at Martial Supremacy Rank. Once the Power Stunt is established, it would require only a green roll at Martial Supremacy Rank in order to perform. The "check" is in actuality indistinguishable from an established "Power Stunt", the only difference being the -1CS penalty.

My point is, if the effects of the abilities are acceptable within the framework of the rules, what difference does it make whether it is as a power or as an established power stunt?

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NikMak
As I recall,
> it turns a talent roll or effect (based on
> FASEstats + Skill) into a stand alone power at
> (FASEstat+Skill+ PowerRank#... I dont have much
> problem with this (though admittedly the
> initiative and see through armour variants of the
> original rules do need a little work!)

Though your recollection of the power mechanics is incorrect, you admit that you don't have much problem with the mechanics, if they indeed were FASE+Skill+PowerRank#. Which could allow for Fighting+MS+MA(A-E) for Strength+MS+MA(A-E) Damage with no CS penalties. That could get into the upper columns pretty quickly. And my re-write seems unfair for a 1 slot power?

Just to be clear, in my redefining of the power, a player would spend one power slot on Martial Supremacy and the first variation chosen (MA A-E). Each variant beyond the very first chosen variant would cost an additional slot: Example - A player rolls Martial Supremacy and chooses Martial Arts A. This costs one power slot. The player then chooses Martial Arts D and E, as those are optional powers under the new definition, spending a total of 3 power slots within the Fighting category.

Brymin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am having a hard time understanding why you
> and Nik would rather list these as power stunts
> and apply a -1CS penalty, when all but the "C"
> variants of these powers require "Checks" at
> Martial Supremacy Rank.

I guess we just don't feel like the power needs a full re-write. Yes, its a bit lackluster in its original form... that's why power stunts. Also, you add the power rank to Strength for damage in some cases. Personally, I feel that could be a little overpowered depending on ranks. If you have both Monstrous Strength and power rank, then you can hit for Shift-X damage. That's a bit much, in my opinion, so I'd rather apply some column shifts to scale things back a little bit.

I did a rewrite of the power myself, essentially making it a static boost to Fighting rank with various power stunts available depending on which Martial Arts talents you have available. Increased melee damage is only one of those power stunts.

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Thrudjelmer
I guess we just don't feel like the power needs a full re-write.

I did a rewrite of the power myself...

So… You did a rewrite of this power, but you don't feel like the power needs a full re-write… My point is, the power is lacking unique mechanics for the variants of the power. My basis for re-writing it. Probably yours as well.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
Also, you add the power rank to Strength for damage in some cases. Personally, I feel that could be a little overpowered depending on ranks. If you have both Monstrous Strength and power rank, then you can hit for Shift-X damage. That's a bit much, in my opinion, so I'd rather apply some column shifts to scale things back a little bit.

I understand that at the higher levels this power can create huge damage bonuses, but watch Fist of the North Star. That's kind of what I picture when I think of this power set. Again, there are limitations and checks within the variants of my version of Martial Supremacy.

In your example, your concern is a PC being able to hit for Shift-X Damage, when they only have Monstrous Strength. A bit much of a bonus. Granted. A bit simplistic, as there are other factors to consider.

Let's say the PC has the following stats:

Fighting - GD
Strength - MN

Martial Supremacy - GD
Martial Arts A - MN

The chances of using the (A) version of this power are exactly 0 in the first round of combat. Without spending Karma, the PC only has a 25% chance of scoring a Slam to even have an attempt at triggering the power. Let's say the PC does score a Slam in the first Round. In the non-combat portion of the second round of combat, the PC has a 55% chance of triggering the power. Let's say the PC achieves this and scores a Green Result on his Martial Supremacy check. The PC now calculates his Fighting bonus by adding Fighting Rank Number to Martial Supremacy Rank Number for a Fighting of Excellent. The PC still has to hit the opponent in the next Round, meaning he now has a 60% chance of landing a blow for Shift-X Edged Damage. In this scenario the overall probability of landing a Shift-X Intensity blow in the second round of combat for the PC is 8.25%! That means 9 out of 10 times, it fails within the second Round.

Even if, in my example, you boost the PC's Fighting and Martial Supremacy to EX, the odds are only increased to 12.6%. An increase in the PC's Fighting and Martial Supremacy to IN, the odds increase to 19.6%. It's unlikely that a "fresh-out-of-the-box" PC is going to roll Incredible Fighting, Monstrous Strength and have powers within a set and subset of Incredible and Monstrous. It's highly improbable. I guess someone could cheat New England And if a PC is groomed and advanced to the point of being able to put together a SHX attack, well, hell, at some point you should be able to do that.

The checks contained within the definition of the power create the limitations that you would rather create through the use of power stunts, which would cap damage and create a limitation. Though in your version (Power Stunt) there is no trigger, only a check (Power Stunt), followed by a damage cap. Keep in mind, not every villain or opponent can be damaged by melee attacks. These powers grant zero bonus when fighting ethereal opponents or energy bodies, etc.

I find myself defending my re-write, but I've read little substance in the arguments against my re-write. I would pose the following to the opponents of my re-define of the Martial Supremacy Power:

Explain how the original definition of the Martial Arts Supremacy (F2) Power differentiates between the variants *Martial Arts A-E*…

and

Explain how the original power functions in combat sans Power Stunts

- Brymin

Quote
NikMak
from a GMs point of view, I would allow most of your re-write of the power as power stunts (probably with -CS), however I would be reluctant to simply allow these changes to the base power.

The -CS seems to be a standard penalty for most GM's. I never penalize a PC's Powers Stunt by subtracting a column from the base power's Power Rank unless the Power is used on an area or multiple opponents within a Round, but different strokes...

Brymin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So… You did a rewrite of this power, but you
> don't feel like the power needs a full re-write… My
> point is, the power is lacking unique mechanics for
> the variants of the power. My basis for re-writing it.
> Probably yours as well.

Well, I think your variant is over-thinking the "unique mechanics" aspect. As I said, all I did was simplify the power to be a static boost to Fighting rank with the option to develop power stunts depending on which Martial Arts talents the user possesses.


> I understand that at the higher levels this power can
> create huge damage bonuses, but watch Fist of the
> North Star. That's kind of what I picture when I think
> of this power set. Again, there are limitations and
> checks within the variants of my version of Martial
> Supremacy.

Uh-huh. There's your problem in my eyes. You're re-writing based on how you want the power to function based on anime which often features highly exaggerated power levels. I prefer, and I think many others do as well, the simplicity of the Marvel rules and also like how the powers are grounded in comics reality rather than anime reality.


> In your example, your concern is a PC being able
> to hit for Shift-X Damage, when they only have
> Monstrous Strength. A bit much of a bonus.
> Granted. A bit simplistic, as there are other
> factors to consider.

Again, I prefer simplistic. I also always look for the extreme examples to see how the power can end up being "abused."


> Let's say the PC has the following stats:
>
> Fighting - GD
> Strength - MN
>
> Martial Supremacy - GD
> Martial Arts A - MN
>
> The chances of using the (A) version of this power
> are exactly 0 in the first round of combat.
> Without spending Karma, the PC only has a 25%
> chance of scoring a Slam to even have an attempt
> at triggering the power. Let's say the PC does
> score a Slam in the first Round. In the
> non-combat portion of the second round of combat,
> the PC has a 55% chance of triggering the power.
> Let's say the PC achieves this and scores a Green
> Result on his Martial Supremacy check. The PC now
> calculates his Fighting bonus by adding Fighting
> Rank Number to Martial Supremacy Rank Number for a
> Fighting of Excellent. The PC still has to hit
> the opponent in the next Round, meaning he now has
> a 60% chance of landing a blow for Shift-X Edged
> Damage. In this scenario the overall probability
> of landing a Shift-X Intensity blow in the second
> round of combat for the PC is 8.25%! That means 9
> out of 10 times, it fails within the second
> Round.

Too much. Again, I think simple is the way to go. With the stats you listed, a character using my simplified variant of Martial Supremacy would only have a combined rank of Excellent (Good Fighting + Good Martial Arts Supremacy), but can develop different power stunts. With Martial Arts A, players have options like Nerve Strike (a successful Yellow or better attack forces the target to also make an Endurance FEAT or suffer slowed reactions equating to a simple -3 penalty to initiative for 1-10 rounds) or Footstomp (all opponents must make a slam or stun check if the player rolls a Yellow or Red FEAT).


> Even if, in my example, you boost the PC's
> Fighting and Martial Supremacy to EX, the odds are
> only increased to 12.6%. An increase in the PC's
> Fighting and Martial Supremacy to IN, the odds
> increase to 19.6%. It's unlikely that a
> "fresh-out-of-the-box" PC is going to roll
> Incredible Fighting, Monstrous Strength and have
> powers within a set and subset of Incredible and
> Monstrous. It's highly improbable.

Again, I always look for the worst case scenario. While it may be rare to roll up a character this way, its not impossible. Also, rolling is not the only way to create a character. Some of us use a point buy system which allows players to simple assign stats and powers as they wish with limits. While this is not an official method, there is an official method which is even more flexible, and it's covered in the Player's Book: it's called character modeling.


> I guess someone could cheat New England And if
> a PC is groomed and advanced to the point of being
> able to put together a SHX attack, well, hell, at some
> point you should be able to do that.

Yes, I agree that at some point a player should be able to do that... when they've spent Karma to raise an ability or power up to Shift-X rank, not out of the box with two Monstrous ranks. The reason I feel this way is that I generally don't like to combine ranks by adding them up, especially where damage is concerned. According to the rules, if two ranks are combined for an attack from two different sources, you don't add them up, you boost the higher of the two ranks as long as they are within one rank of each other. So Spider-Man helping Hercules with a double-team punch attack won't boost Herc's Unearthly damage. Thor and Hercules combining their attacks would get a +1CS... meaning Shift-X damage (UN+UN = Sh-X), or Shift-Y damage if Thor is using his hammer (Sh-X + UN = Sh-Y). I like this rule, so if a player has a power or powers that can stack to increase their own damage, I treat it the same way.


> The checks contained within the definition of the
> power create the limitations that you would rather
> create through the use of power stunts, which
> would cap damage and create a limitation. Though
> in your version (Power Stunt) there is no trigger,
> only a check (Power Stunt), followed by a damage
> cap.

The power check is the trigger, and the damage cap is the limitation.


> Keep in mind, not every villain or opponent can be
> damaged by melee attacks. These powers grant
> zero bonus when fighting ethereal opponents or
> energy bodies, etc.

Uh-huh. Same thing with my simplified version or even the rules as written.


> I find myself defending my re-write, but I've read
> little substance in the arguments against my re-write.

Well, we expressed a mild dislike of the idea of a complete rewrite but both agreed that there was power stunt potential in your ideas. Since you've asked for substance, though, I've decided to explain better. I hope this helps you understand at least my point of view. I'll let NikMak speak for himself.

> I would pose the following to the opponents of my
> re-define of the Martial Supremacy Power:
>
> Explain how the original definition of the Martial
> Arts Supremacy (F2) Power differentiates between
> the variants *Martial Arts A-E*…

It doesn't do so very well at all. And that is why I created a simplified version of the power. I think your desire for unique game mechanics unnecessarily complicated the power as much as the original version was left too vague.


> Explain how the original power functions in combat
> sans Power Stunts

The power as written functions primarily as a show of martial arts focus in breaking inanimate objects... like a real martial artist smashing boards or bricks, but with a lot more potential for devastation.


> The -CS seems to be a standard penalty for most
> GM's. I never penalize a PC's Powers Stunt by
> subtracting a column from the base power's Power
> Rank unless the Power is used on an area or
> multiple opponents within a Round, but different
> strokes...

Most powers restrict power stunts with a column shift penalty of some sort, depending on how much benefit the power stunt would grant. A significant benefit (like gaining a whole other power, such as flying with Air or Weather Control) should get a bit more of a penalty than a power stunt that has a mild usefulness or doesn't actually vary much from the original power's intent. Some power stunts don't get a penalty, but the powers that offer greater diversity tend to be a bit more restrictive this way to offset the benefit of the diversity.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brymin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----

Edited for brevity

>
> > I find myself defending my re-write, but I've
> read
> > little substance in the arguments against my
> re-write.
>
> Well, we expressed a mild dislike of the idea of a
> complete rewrite but both agreed that there was
> power stunt potential in your ideas. Since you've
> asked for substance, though, I've decided to
> explain better. I hope this helps you understand
> at least my point of view. I'll let NikMak speak
> for himself.
>

no need, you are doing an excellent job without me...

@ Brymin, I understand the need to re-draft the original text, I understand the points you are making. I dont 100% agree with your conclusions. But each to their own; if you, the other players in your games, are happy with these changes, enjoy! you dont need anyone else to validate your play-choices

Absolutely. That's fine as a house rule. My points were just that I don't see a need for all that as a general change to the power because it's not going to fit with everyone's view of the power or flavor of the game. Again, we started out in agreement that there was good in your descriptions for use as power stunts. It seems like you took it personally that we didn't just agree with you 100% and tried to turn it into a debate.

To each his own, and if that's what works for your game, then run with it. If you want to have a conversation about it, though, you should expect opinions that differ from your own.

I did take it personally. No doubt. I spent a year thinking of how to re-write it and the first responses I get are…

Can you explain to me in more detail what the problem was with the original power?

and

It doesn't need a re-write, because you can power stunt around its uselessness and I did a re-write myself.

The initial responses seemed frivolous. I found it irritating.

It is still my opinion that there are enough checks and balances contained within my re-write that keeps the power from being too uber. Maybe the "C" version needs toned down a bit. Maybe they all do. Maybe instead of adding damages, you can do a substitution for a Power Rank over Strength, or a CS in the case of Strength and the Power Rank being even. Though I did get the idea of adding the Ranks together for a total damage from the original definition.

I still contend that the original definition, regardless of the creativity of the PC's and judges, contains no delineation between the variations of the powers to make them different from one another or complimentary to the Martial Arts Talents from which they are derived.

Quote

Again, I always look for the worst case scenario.

Cynicism and Pessimism at CL5000 Rank.

Quote

Uh-huh. There's your problem in my eyes. You're re-writing based on how you want the power to function based on anime which often features highly exaggerated power levels.

An author writes as an author will. I'm not an anime fan at all. I had a close friend that was, and he made me watch that movie with him. That movie really just popped into my head when I read the definition of the power "chopping battleships in half". The anime characters do seem ridiculous, and I agree they don't fit the overall flavor of Marvel, but the Martial Supremacy Power is there in the book, and I just tried a re-write that made it seem more relevant. Perhaps a bit complicated to some, no doubt. I'm a math nerd and what seems pretty simple to me, could seem pointlessly complex to others. Rube-Goldberg Power FTW!

I suspect Martial Supremacy fits very much in Marvel largely due to Karnak of the Inhumans who can find the weak point in virtually anything and break it.

I'm sorry if you felt we were being frivolous or irritating. Personally, I didn't go into the details at first because I didn't want to come off as heavy-handed in my disagreement, like I was telling you that you're just plain wrong. People have disagreements. Be mature about it and realize that you weren't being picked on, you were just being disagreed with... AGAIN I say partially. Both NikMak and myself saw potential in your ideas, we just didn't agree with the notion of outright rewrite. So we partially agreed with you, but you take it personally.

You shared an idea. We discussed it. Its called conversation. You say we disrespected your opinion by what --not loving it? Couldn't we say you're disagreement with people who don't have a problem with the power generally is also disrespectful? If you're just were looking for blind praise, I dunno... maybe the internet isn't the right place for that?

Still, as I said, if it works for you and your game group, then great. We don't have to agree with it in part or in whole. But don't take it seriously. Its not as if we called you names or criticized you in an insulting manner.

Side note: As I mentioned, I've also got a rewrite of the Martial Supremacy power, a simplification really. But I didn't share it here until now because I didn't feel like it might be for everyone. If anyone had asked or brought up the topic, I wouldn't mind sharing my ideas on it. And some people might feel my ideas for power stunts are too little or too much. I'd say they were just different and work for my group's game, but I would know better than to feel insulted that people didn't just accept my ideas as great or whatever.

Its okay to disagree, but its all in how you do it. When someone says your idea is stupid or grossly overpowered to the point of being munchkiny or whatever, then feel annoyed or offended. I'll even join you in it.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Both NikMak and myself saw potential
> in your ideas, we just didn't agree with the
> notion of outright rewrite.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree then, as the original writing of Martial Supremacy seems nearly useless to me. Making it a CS here and there makes it seem more like a Talent to me, definitely more useful than the original writing, but really doesn't seem like much a Super Power to me.

Also, I see your point in the example of groups that have point-buy systems instead of rolling, creating an uber out-of-the-box hero. I really don't like the idea of a point-buy, because it seems like an easy exploit.

I wonder if you could find time to roll a few characters with the re-written Martial Supremacy Power and see if you think its easy to end up in the uber-realms of heroes.

thanks

No offense, but I'm not going to do that. Aside from the potential overpowered nature if high ranks are added, the other thing I personally didn't find appealing was that --and I don't mean any offense-- I feel you over-complicated things. What I like about Marvel is the simplistic approach, and your variant seems like it belongs to another game but has been shoe-horned in to get that anime feel.

It's just not for me.

Maybe there are some others who would be more open to this that could try it out, though. I don't speak for everyone, after all.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 10:26AM by Thrudjelmer.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No offense, but I'm not going to do that. Aside
> from the potential overpowered nature if high
> ranks are added, the other thing I personally
> didn't find appealing was that --and I don't mean
> any offense-- I feel you over-complicated things.
> What I like about Marvel is the simplistic
> approach, and your variant seems like it belongs
> to another game but has been shoe-horned in to get
> that anime feel.
>
> It's just not for me.
>
> Maybe there are some others who would be more open
> to this that could try it out, though. I don't
> speak for everyone, after all.

I find it somewhat ironic reading through all this when I had that Workshop on this power years ago the number of people arguing all about adding in every CS possible, and from people who routinely derided me for wanting to 'overpower' things.

As far as the issues with it somehow being 'overpowered' trying to better emulate the average fighting MA anime, few are Dragonball Z level where with Training From Hell you can destroy suns. Most are well within the range of Marvel's somewhat heavier end or at least get their near the end.

I think DBZ characters who can destroy worlds and whatnot definitely have more powers going on than just Martial Supremacy even if they justify those additional powers as part of their martial training. Personally, I don't like the idea of an omni-power where everything can be power-stunted off of it... outside of Reality Manipulation which just makes sense... and I've seen more than my share of people trying to do everything with Martial Supremacy using DBZ as justification, to the point where I'm just against the very idea of comparing comics to anime stuff unless its for laughs (see Epic Rap Battles of History: Superman vs Goku).

If people want to play their games that way, that's fine... but I want nothing to do with it.

I seriously don't think my re-write allows for a high probability of an uber-powered out-of-the-box PC. I just rolled one character and he ended up in the not too shabby range:

MAS EXPERIMENT

Cyborg
Exoskeleton

F-GD
A-GD
S-RM
E-IN

R-IN
I-TY
P-F

Weakness - elemental allergy, fatal, continuous with contact

Powers

Martial Supremacy EX
A TY
D EX
E GD

Regeneration FE


Talents
Martial Arts A, D, E

So, within my re-write, if everything clicks for this new cyborg-ninja hero, he would receive +3 Intiative, be able to perform 2 Fighting FEATs with a Green check at Incredible or 3 Fighting FEATs with a red check (depending on how ambitious the player is feeling), he would roll his Fighting FEATs at Remarkable for Remarkable (36) Damage *depending on whether you allow new PCs to start in the middle of the power ranks or the low end. He would also be able to reduce an openent's body armor by 20, BR, DR, and AS by 10, or TI by 5.

I'm sure a doomsday scenario can be dreamed up wherein my rules would allow for a world breaker from day one, but that's a statistical improbability.

Quote

No offense, but I'm not going to do that. Aside from the potential overpowered nature if high ranks are added, the other thing I personally didn't find appealing was that --and I don't mean any offense-- I feel you over-complicated things. What I like about Marvel is the simplistic approach, and your variant seems like it belongs to another game but has been shoe-horned in to get that anime feel.

No offense taken. And no offense meant on my part, when I say I believe we both know your "concerns" of overpower were rife with hyperbole. Rather than testing your concerns, by performing an experiment as an objective mind would, you held fast to concerns based on HIGHLY improbable worst case scenarios. If everyone went through life worrying about the worst case scenario, Michael Angelo would have painted the Sistine Chapel floor.

Again, I am legitimately not meaning to be offensive, that's just how I see it. So, in the downtime at the end of my shift, I performed my own experiment tonight. I rolled 32 characters, including 5 deities, and not a single one ended up in the uber-realm. Not one of them was hitting in the Shift-X Rank. 1 out of all 32 ended up being able to hit for Unearthly (105), but he had low health and max powers of 3. 4 out of 32 could hit at Monstrous (70). 11 of 32 could hit for Amazing (60). The others were well within what I would call "Street Level" heroes. In one of the PC's I rolled, I thought, well, here it is… The uber out-of-the-box rookie, the PC ended up with the following weakness: Finite Limit - Power Negation - Permanent, and his Armor Skin had a 2 shot limit… There are plenty of checks and balances for players and judges that don't cheat.

Again, I do not need anyone's permission to enact a house rule. I do not need validation. I am also not posting here to have my work praised. But if you decide to add your two cents worth of criticism, at least have a logical, factual basis from which to say, "It is overpowered because the probability of this power being uber for rookie PC's is "X". Not some unhinged argument about, well, heck there's a point buy system of character generation that could…bla bla bla… Point Buy systems could be exploited, but you give here to get there in a point buy system. Eventually you pay the piper somewhere.

No offense, and consider this my feedback to your feedback.

As to the "Over Complicated" nature of my powers… Dude… It's second grade math...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 06:53PM by Brymin.

One last note to add perspective on the probability of an out-of-the-box PC being able to hit for SH-X Damage under my re-write of Martial Supremacy…

During creation a player has a 5% chance of rolling Monstrous Strength. Certain origins offer a +1CS to FASE, others have a bonus of +2CS. A deity has a 29% chance of rolling Incredible Strength, which would be shifted to Monstrous as part of the bonus of the origin. The probability of rolling a deity with Monstrous Strength and Monstrous Martial Arts A, B or C is 1.45%. The probability of rolling an Angel or Demon with Monstrous Strength and Monstrous Martial Arts A, B or C is 1%. And those two examples offer the highest probability of a PC being able to hit for SH-X damage out-of-the-box. Laughable.

In other origins where there is no bonus for FASE or Primaries, the odds are .25% (that's not 25%. That is one quarter of one percent) for column 5. For Column 4 the probability is .1% (as in one tenth of one percent). For columns 1, 2, and 3 it is simply an impossibility. Worst case scenario… If 100 players rolled deities and chose Martial Supremacy, less than 2 (effectively 1) players would roll PC's that could hit for SHX Damage out of the box.

Brymin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As to the "Over Complicated" nature of my
> powers… Dude… It's second grade math...

Given some here have complained about doing the basic math to determine how fast their character is healing using Regeneration from the Ultimate Powers Book don't be too surprised by that. Disappointed perhaps but not surprised.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think DBZ characters who can destroy worlds and
> whatnot definitely have more powers going on than
> just Martial Supremacy even if they justify those
> additional powers as part of their martial
> training. Personally, I don't like the idea of an
> omni-power where everything can be power-stunted
> off of it... outside of Reality Manipulation which
> just makes sense... and I've seen more than my
> share of people trying to do everything with
> Martial Supremacy using DBZ as justification, to
> the point where I'm just against the very idea of
> comparing comics to anime stuff unless its for
> laughs (see Epic Rap Battles of History: Superman
> vs Goku).

Super-powered Martial Arts falls into the Charles Atlas Super-power trope, so martial arts like in Dragonball Z are more magic (although magic exists separately in the setting) than just Martial Arts. They're manipulating a powerful personal energy (ki) for a variety of effects, and while the basic body does end up super-human the main durability and features are a result of building up and manipulating that ki. So when you're punching an opponent you're actually depleting his ki more than damaging his actual body (although it's a bit like the ki is buffering things, so it blunts things like TI).

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brymin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As to the "Over Complicated" nature of my
> > powers… Dude… It's second grade math...
>
> Given some here have complained about doing the
> basic math to determine how fast their character
> is healing using Regeneration from the Ultimate
> Powers Book don't be too surprised by that.
> Disappointed perhaps but not surprised.


I'm not referring to "difficulty level" when I say "complicated," but rather the overall process... I like the Marvel system for its simplicity because it helps move combat along quickly. Anything that slows that down is unnecessary over-complication in my eyes.

If I wanted to do math and have lots of extraneous game mechanics, I would play Champions or Mutants & Masterminds.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2015 06:01AM by Thrudjelmer.

I'm liking how you differentiated different flavors of MS and actually made them different mechanically and in effect.

I like how the roll is always on the F column regardless of additional stunts that are implicit in your changes.

I'm not crazy about the additional calcuations, though, I have to say. I understand the math is simple, but in the group I've run, some of the players who like to min-max are a bear to deal with when I have to explain even the simplest calculation to determine what can be done, which column to roll on, etc. Marvel does have a simple rule-set when compared to M&M, for example, or Champions. They're both crunchier, but also (imho) more cumbersome.

Still, I think your MS rewrite will be very useful to some other players and GMs on the board, so keep it up! Not everyone likes everything, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyone who likes some things.

civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm liking how you differentiated different
> flavors of MS and actually made them different
> mechanically and in effect.
>
> I like how the roll is always on the F column
> regardless of additional stunts that are implicit
> in your changes.
>
> I'm not crazy about the additional calcuations,
> though, I have to say. I understand the math is
> simple, but in the group I've run, some of the
> players who like to min-max are a bear to deal
> with when I have to explain even the simplest
> calculation to determine what can be done, which
> column to roll on, etc. Marvel does have a simple
> rule-set when compared to M&M, for example, or
> Champions. They're both crunchier, but also (imho)
> more cumbersome.
>
> Still, I think your MS rewrite will be very useful
> to some other players and GMs on the board, so
> keep it up! Not everyone likes everything, but
> that doesn't mean there isn't anyone who likes
> some things.

Thanks. Feel free to borrow and include my re-write piecemeal or in toto.

I might be the only GM that does this, but I usually make a quick reference sheet for myself of the PC's in an adventure, which contain a list of their abilities and Power Stunts. In the case of a character with Martial Supremacy, I would list the bottom line of bonuses provided to make the combat sequences more expedient.

I knew this was here somewhere, but I had to go all the way to the last page of this section of the forum to find it:

A good way to look at the MARTIAL SUPREMACY power, using power stunts to flesh it out.
Thanks to Nightmask and Redman for the additional ideas.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2015 08:49AM by Thrudjelmer.