Hey gang, first time poster here, long time player. Marvel was my first RPG ever, and to this day I still love the damn game. An idea that has been rattling around in my brain for a while, but I've never had time to articulate is regarding damage. We all know the basic damage rules: characters have a Health score equal to the sum of the numerical values of Fighting, Agility, Strength and Endurance. This means most mainlines characters can have as little as 4 Health (in the extreme) to upwards of 2000 Health or more (in the opposite extremes). For most humans, they have around 22 Health points.

So the first time I tried to introduce the game to my children, my oldest son was on a bit of a Hawkeye kick, and played him. What we found was that Hawkeye was doing so little damage with his arrows that he couldn't even knock out an AIM soldier in one shot... which seemed a little un-Hawkeye ish. He could hit them well enough, sure, but his arrows (20 damage) could not reduce the 28 Health thugs to 0. A sneaky intrusion was essentially out of the question.

This got me thinking of two other supers rpg systems I really enjoyed. The MGES system (DC Heroes) and Mutants and Masterminds both use a damage and resistance system where you are "saving" in a sense again the potential damage of an attack, while MSH is more akin to the D&D roots of TSR - damage and health are decoupled from the system overall.

Now what if every incoming damage effect was treated as an intensity rating to be resisted. Success against the damage indicates you have taken the hit, but keep on going. The character may even be wounded, but the wound is not slowing them down enough to matter. But should the roll fail, then the character is considered bruised, then battered, then KOed or dying.

Bruised: Beaten up a little or mangled. Potential costume rippage and plenty of cross hatched scuffs drawn on the character. -1CS to Toughness.
Battered: Character is limping or struggling to keep going on. Costume is torn and mangled, bloodied, and Aunt May is going to wonder how you got that black eye. -2CS to Toughness.
KOed: Character has been knocked down, and didn't get back up again. Further damage attempts may now Kill character (proceed to Killing rules).

This would also allows Judges to introduce a "thug" or "mook" rule, where one failed Toughness check can KO the mook.

Heroes can spend Karma on the roll to try and create a better result, and can spend 100 Karma to "shrug off" a failed Toughness roll. This is to simulate the hero powering through in a dramatic moment. Judges can also offer 100 Karma if a character elects to "critically fail" a Toughness roll and be automatically knocked out, allowing the hero to be captured by the villain for plot purposes.

I haven't worked out Recovery rules. Body Armour would increase Toughness, Force Fields would replace it. I'm looking to get thoughts on this, fleshing out the idea. It's not for everyone, but I personally think the Health and damage rules are the weakest part of the game.

I'm generally against major changes to the game, but I've gotta say I like it. It has potential.

If we ignore Health scores entirely and allow characters with a lot of Karma to keep on going through a brutal fight by succeeding their intensity checks against attacks that hit them, that would actually resemble a large number of comic book fights, too. Because I've seen a number of such battles where the characters should have run out of Health significantly early on in a fight but continue to take the beating and somehow manage to pull off a lucky win or even just an escape until they can come back better prepared for a fight.

I'm a big fan of keeping games by the book, but I'll say that after years of playing, this is one rule I'm definitely looking to house rule and figure out.

For damage recovery, its an Endurance FEAT: Bruised is a green feat, Battered a yellow, and KOed a Red. Each character gets a recovery one hour after taking damage (the Golden Hour), then this defaults to once per day. As usual, Karma can be spent on the roll. The Recovery Power, finally, replaces your Endurance for Recovery checks. Regeneration would probably be best served be rewritten to work as a "time based" power, with specific ranks of Regeneration mapping to time intervals at which the character gets to make a recovery roll.

So now, if we look at this hero:
Hero Guy
F Ex A Gd S Ex E Ex
He would end up with a Toughness of Excellent (17). The Power Rank number doesn't matter here - it's always the average of your FASE, and changes with those scores. This could be just an Endurance rank, but I like the idea that good fighting, reflexes, strength and endurance all flow into how well you can take a hit.

The Nebulon, a bizarre cosmic powered villain, blasts Hero Guy with an Amazing (50) energy attack from his Cosmic Power. Clear cut here - Hero Guy has only a handful of rounds to fight Nebulon before he goes down, but he's going to last at least one more shot than he would have in the straight Health system (as his Health would have been 70, and two 50 point blasts would have crushed him). He can't make a FEAT roll to resist the damage, as it's +3CS above his Toughness (the maximum would be RM).

Hero Guy is getting decked in the face from his strangely goatee'd clone. Villain Guy has a Strength of Excellent, so Hero Guy has to succeed at a Yellow FEAT to resist the damage from his evil clone. Hero Guy is only going to resist the damage about 1/3 of the time on a yellow. In Heatlh, he could take 4 shots before falling - this feels about right.

On a better day, Hero Guy is fighting a thug, who has a knife. The knife is doing Good damage (Excellent MS, Good Strength). Now Hero Guy is a low level super soldier, equivalent to your average 80s action hero. He only needs a Green FEAT to avoid damage at the hands of the knife. Hero Guy is going to succeed 60% of the time here. This is where it feels like Health would be more favourable for Hero Guy - he could reliably take 7 hits from the knife. In this system, Hero Guy is likely going to burn some Karma to make sure he can take the shivving.

Minor attacks, like Aunt May thwacking him with a frying pan (PR damage) are going to be automatically succeeded against - Hero Guy might yell and duck a lot, but these aren't going to injure him in any serious way unless the Judge bribes him with Karma. In Health, he could take 18 hits before Aunt May would finally fell him - this feels like its working right.

For my part, I will probably allow players to spend 100 Karma (plus additional Karma, if desired, to achieve a Red FEAT to succeed) to bypass the automatic failure for the attack intensity being more than one rank above the character's toughness. I generally don't like automatic failures because they seem so... unheroic. I generally restrict that rule to the Strength-based FEATs of lifting, bending, and breaking stuff.

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Thrudjelmer
For my part, I will probably allow players to spend 100 Karma (plus additional Karma, if desired, to achieve a Red FEAT to succeed) to bypass the automatic failure for the attack intensity being more than one rank above the character's toughness. I generally don't like automatic failures because they seem so... unheroic. I generally restrict that rule to the Strength-based FEATs of lifting, bending, and breaking stuff.

I don't either, but I leave that up to the individual Judge. Some may not like to have heroes be that tough, and in that case I would allow them to stick with the automatic Impossible FEAT rule, or to bend that rule as per the guidelines on pg. 6 of the Judge's Book.

For Regeneration, it standardly changes the healing interval to one minute from one Hour, but otherwise the Power Rank is meaningless. So changing Regeneration, it will function like so:

Regeneration: The hero heals rapidly from damage, wounds closing up on their own in minutes rather than hours, and bones mending in hours rather than days. Power Rank determines what interval the hero makes recovery checks at for damage and lost Endurance Ranks, as per the chart below. Note that Regeneration only shortens the time required for recovery checks; for enhanced recovery ability, see the Recovery power. NOTE: Medical attention decreases the amount of time required to recover lost Endurance ranks. For those who have Regeneration and are receiving medical attention, increase the rate of Endurance Loss recovery only by +2CS to simulate this care. That being said, most heroes with Regeneration typically don't want to bother with the fuss and bother (or expense) of a hospital stay.
RANK HEALING/ENDURANCE LOSS
Feeble: 1 Hour / 2 Days
Poor: 50 rounds / 1 Day
Typical: 40 rounds / 12 Hours
Good: 30 rounds / 2 Hours
Excellent: 20 rounds / 1 Hour
Remarkable: 10 rounds / 1 Hour
Incredible: 2 rounds / 10 rounds
Amazing: 2 rounds / 2 rounds
Monstrous: 1 round / 2 rounds
Unearthly: 1 round / 1 round
Shift-X: 1/2 round / 1 round
Shift-Y: 1/2 round / 1/2 round
Shift-Z: 1/3 round / 1/2 round

One problem with that is that healing is supposed to take days not hours for health recovery, there was one major screw-up when that erroneous entry was let in (it has a normal person capable of recovering from a brutal, near death beating inside a day rather than taking weeks like it should). Broken bones take weeks not days to heal, and even a regular wound takes more than hours to even begin to really close up let alone something major. Which is why the entries for Wolverine show him with an hourly recovery rate instead of days, but that screw-up has EVERYONE ending up looking like they heal faster than Wolverine and that was well before all the power creep for Wolverine set in and Regeneration became a go-to power to hand out all over the place.

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Nightmask
One problem with that is that healing is supposed to take days not hours for health recovery, there was one major screw-up when that erroneous entry was let in (it has a normal person capable of recovering from a brutal, near death beating inside a day rather than taking weeks like it should). Broken bones take weeks not days to heal, and even a regular wound takes more than hours to even begin to really close up let alone something major. Which is why the entries for Wolverine show him with an hourly recovery rate instead of days, but that screw-up has EVERYONE ending up looking like they heal faster than Wolverine and that was well before all the power creep for Wolverine set in and Regeneration became a go-to power to hand out all over the place.

It's in the Advanced Set. And the Basic Revised Set. I'm well aware of how long real life injuries take to heal, but Marvel seems to have never included a system for this aside from the small section in Endurance recovery (if you reached Shift-0, and another regarding being at -1CS or -2CS to abilities if Endurance ranks are reduced). Health points seem to function as bruise and bashing damage only.

Heck, in the Basic Revised, if notes that Health recovery is Endurance rank each 1/2 hour if aided in a medical facility.

So I'm all for saying "healing is too fast", but by the book, it's working as intended. One is always free to slow it down in their own game, and you could modify this along with the RAW to do so, but what would be the sense of creating a house rule with house rules inside the house rules?

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Coffee Zombie

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Nightmask
One problem with that is that healing is supposed to take days not hours for health recovery, there was one major screw-up when that erroneous entry was let in (it has a normal person capable of recovering from a brutal, near death beating inside a day rather than taking weeks like it should). Broken bones take weeks not days to heal, and even a regular wound takes more than hours to even begin to really close up let alone something major. Which is why the entries for Wolverine show him with an hourly recovery rate instead of days, but that screw-up has EVERYONE ending up looking like they heal faster than Wolverine and that was well before all the power creep for Wolverine set in and Regeneration became a go-to power to hand out all over the place.

It's in the Advanced Set. And the Basic Revised Set. I'm well aware of how long real life injuries take to heal, but Marvel seems to have never included a system for this aside from the small section in Endurance recovery (if you reached Shift-0, and another regarding being at -1CS or -2CS to abilities if Endurance ranks are reduced). Health points seem to function as bruise and bashing damage only.

Heck, in the Basic Revised, if notes that Health recovery is Endurance rank each 1/2 hour if aided in a medical facility.

So I'm all for saying "healing is too fast", but by the book, it's working as intended. One is always free to slow it down in their own game, and you could modify this along with the RAW to do so, but what would be the sense of creating a house rule with house rules inside the house rules?

I would imagine that a revised version of the Basic set is just a fan revision and not really relevant, the book also says in other spots that health recovery is by day (such as under the Endurance entry) and it was never intended for health recovery to be hourly, not without a specific power that allows it. The game was written up before the power creep that had everyone recovering the next day like nothing ever happened, they're supposed to be concerned about injuries and how long it'll take to recover especially from broken bones (not that the game so far as I remember covers such specific kinds of injuries). Only a Leeroy Jenkins like Wolverine should be expected to above like injuries aren't a concern.

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Nightmask
I would imagine that a revised version of the Basic set is just a fan revision and not really relevant,

It kind of sucks that TSR published it and people take it seriously, right?

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask
I would imagine that a revised version of the Basic set is just a fan revision and not really relevant,

It kind of sucks that TSR published it and people take it seriously, right?

That actually happened? How depressing. I prefer the actual daily healing rate for things, if I wanted cartoony (as in Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck kind of cartoons) super-healing and nigh-instant recovery for everyone RPG I'd play a cartoony RPG, for super-heroes though the only ones who should recover like a cartoon character is someone with actual powers that justify it.

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Nightmask
I would imagine that a revised version of the Basic set is just a fan revision and not really relevant, the book also says in other spots that health recovery is by day (such as under the Endurance entry) and it was never intended for health recovery to be hourly, not without a specific power that allows it. The game was written up before the power creep that had everyone recovering the next day like nothing ever happened, they're supposed to be concerned about injuries and how long it'll take to recover especially from broken bones (not that the game so far as I remember covers such specific kinds of injuries). Only a Leeroy Jenkins like Wolverine should be expected to above like injuries aren't a concern.

What... wait? There were just fans working at TSR, secretly publishing box sets into the world without their know-how? No wonder TSR went bankrupt!

In all seriousness, I went back and reread not only Life, Death, Health in the Advanced Book, but also the Endurance Ability in the introduction. Nothing there. However, the Health introduction does have the reference you're citing, in brief: it asks the reader to refer to "Healing", which is on page 32, which is the Life, Death, Health section.

Health Healing
1. 10 Turns after damage you get your END Rank # back in Health points.
2. One hour after damage (under Healing) the character heals back END rank #; rate is doubled if in medical bedrest, and notes that Healing powers can speed up this rate even more.
Now here is where the entry on Health on page 3 contradicts these rules. The second last bullet point notes two healing rates: crisis situations, and a regular rate of END rank # per day. It then points to Healing for more details (and Healing in the index points to page 32). There is also the recovery of Health when one is aided out of unconsciousness.

I'm going to conclude that there was, prior to publishing, a more robust L/D/H section, but it was revised to the current form without the two "grades" or Health recovery. Now, this is an easy rule to model and reinstate if desired - just keep in that first second wind recovery, then set the healing rate to a day.

Comparing to the Revised Basic Set, we see another implied reference to a slower healing rate, but this time left to the Judge's discretion and the player's actions.

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Marvel Super Heroes Basic Set Revised Edition (1991)
In game terms, the Judge should adjudicate the time spent between battles. If the heroes are badly banged up but gung-ho to chase after the fleeing criminals, then no healing can take place. If they take some time, then they can benefit from nature taking its course and repairing their bodies. If you're thinking of the campaign as a comic book, the time spent healing takes place in those little boxes that hang out in the corners of the pages and are frequently labeled " Later that Day," or "The Next Morning." Heroes tend to recover from injuries quickly, which is a good thing, given the amount of damage they take.

Now, sure, Basic rules don't have the same depth and breadth as the Advanced set, but this one is about 5 years more current than the Advanced Set. I don't think there is a matter of a misprinted rule in the Advanced Set, but rather there is missing context in the L/D/H section within. The section above would have been great to have been included in the Advanced Set, as it would support your complaints (which I understand), but also make it clear that the artificially fast Health recovery is a "by design" feature of the game.

The question of if this healing rate, and the healing rate depicted in comics is realistic or not, is a matter for a conversation regarding comics in general, and the tone shift I've observed since the silver age (I'm a solid bronze age fan). And Marvel is... odd. It's published in the bronze age of comics, but its written with a solid silver age foundation - likely because the authors were writing based on what they had read. But more importantly, I think, is that the author(s) felt that a D&D style Healing Rate was not heroic (1 HP/day), and would result in non-heroic style play. Spider-Man should be able to take his lumps, get pummelled, and suit up the next night to hunt down the Vulture again - not go to the hospital and spend a week in traction. The rules were written to reflect this design ethic.

Thing is the comics DON'T have Spider-man taking a pummeling and the next day going after the Vulture perfectly healthy they have him doing it still impaired from the night before. Sure he's doing better but he's not back in perfect form like the hourly rate would mean. If you look you also have characters like Wolverine whose write-ups even done to be in keeping with the Advanced set being based around daily health recovery, only a super-fast regenerator like Madcap had a specialized rate of recovery that was in the rounds rate of speed (before that became pretty much the norm for everyone who has Regeneration due to power creep), so the writers were operating under the position that health recovery was based on daily recovery.

Heck with how dark and angsty comics are anymore such super-fast recovery is even less often seen, characters get beaten and have to function impaired like that for days or more while trying to find some way to recover their full health while still doing their job. Plus one has to remember you can't fully replicate what you see in comics with a system other than one that's just a freeform deal without real rules, after all in the comics Hawkeye is almost certain to always hit his target, he fails WAY more often when trying to hit something in the game.

Sounds like Spidey in the comics may have lost a couple of Endurance ranks and went back out at reduced capacity as a result of not having gained all of his Endurance back instead of his Health.

Yes, I'm going to say this is a matter of a) interpretation as to what the game is trying to represent from the comics and b) a game design choice meant to drive specific styles of play. It's well worth it's own thread to debate, as well, if desired.

If you wanted to have the healing rates on a daily basis, I would have Regeneration function somewhat like this.
RANK HEALING
Feeble: 12 Hours
Poor: 6 hours
Typical: 3 hours
Good: 2 hours
Excellent: 1 hour
Remarkable: 50 rounds
Incredible: 40 rounds
Amazing: 30 rounds
Monstrous: 20 rounds
Unearthly: 10 rounds
Shift-X: 5 rounds
Shift-Y: 3 rounds
Shift-Z: 2 rounds

Coffee Zombie,
I personally feel the weakest parts of the game are the slam and stun rules. In fact, I created a whole thread about it in the General discussion section. Ha Haahaaa.

As for Hawkeye, I've been on a Hawkeye kick for 25 years.
-Jason.