It was a bit of a battle to get the "other" kind of gamer to try MSHRPG, due to the much less detailed and much more relaxed approach to damage and "hit points".

I was influenced to add a bit more crunch to the weapons, using Weapons Locker as the base. The game lends itself to crunch additions due to its blank slate and because it deliberately doesn't go into that detail in the first place.

I eventually dialled it back, because detailing firearms or other weapons beyond a certain point creates a toxic "realism" syndrome which doesn't suit MSHRPG. Instead, using the damage rating of the weapons I heavily use the statistic equivalent Rank - for example a weapon doing 8 damage is doing Typical damage and so you roll on Typical when it hits, shifting based on Talent and other factors. A sniper will shift the Typical roll up to the Red FEAT status with any extra effects.

It works fairly well, especially when even bystanders might have Endurance of 40, a Hunting Rifle shouldn't have to hit them four times to kill them.

On the other hand some details of weapons are essential for GI Joe or Punisher type games.

Someone with an Incredible Endurance should be harder to kill, with a hunting rifle or otherwise, because they are literally superhuman with a score that high. Kill results due to a Red FEAT and failed Endurance check can happen without reducing a character to 0 Health accounts for this.

I honestly don't believe making it easier to kill people in this game is necessary. But if that's the sort of hyper "realism" that works for your group, I guess you do what you gotta do to keep people interested.

Let's look at a competent non-superhuman sniper and assume an Excellent Agility. Likely a trained to shoot at a distance and so possesses the Marksman over standard Guns talent. That means in addition to the +1CS bonus to Excellent Agility, there are no range penalties associated with the attack roll. In addition, unless the target is aware of the sniper's attack, the sniper gains a +2CS blindsiding attack bonus.

That's a 10% chance (91-100) of a Red FEAT. If this is a player attack, then can also spend Karma to boost their chances of hitting with the Red FEAT, and if it's an NPC why would you want to make it easier to kill the players?

A target hit with a Red FEAT shooting attack that deals damage forces the target to make an Endurance FEAT to determine if the hit was lethal, and because it's a shooting attack it has to be a Yellow result or better. For the superhuman Endurance of Incredible rank, a roll of 61 or better is needed (40% chance of success) or else the character is losing a rank of Endurance every turn until receiving some kind of first aid/medical attention.

A better sniper (with higher Agility) makes the shot a little easier, but again, for a player just spending Karma can close the gap. Honestly, though, if someone is looking for a game where damage and death is more "realistic," this system is probably not the best choice as it does it's best to discourage killing (Karma loss, even for villains) and a second Endurance FEAT for someone who has already failed once they reach 0 Endurance to see if the Endurance loss is permanent (death) or just needs to be recovered from with time and healing.

Oh no, someone survives a successful Kill result by making the second Endurance FEAT? Yeah, stuck with lowered Endurance and reduced healing based on that Endurance until they heal up. Health seems to come back pretty quickly normally, but unless the target has the recovery power allowing lost Endurance ranks to be regained on a daily basis, they only heal one Endurance rank per week and only if they make a successful Endurance FEAT. A survived kill result can still be pretty damned incapacitating. Of course, if the sniper wants to move in for the kill on a downed foe, as the Judge you can simply rule that the helpless NPC target is just fodder and can't survive a follow-up hit. But if you do that and then the players aren't held to the same standard, it's unbalanced... and it's better to allow players those chances to survive unless they have no attachment to their characters and just don't care.

Apart from "realism", which I agree has other problems for MSHRPG, it does allow for Die Hard or similar non powered level adventures where untrained people score a "hit" on a target, and take them out with one shot. In other words, for "criticals" that put a powerful enemy down instantly.

Revolvers, Automatic Pistols, Sub-machine Guns (inc machine pistols)
Damage________Calibers (+notes)
Poor(3): .22 short, .25 ACP, 5.45mm
Typical(6): .22 long, .32 ACP(7.65 mm), .32 long(revolver), 7.62mm Nagant, 7.63mm Mauser, 9mm Short,
Good(9): .38 special, 7.62mm Parabellum, 7.65mm Long, 9mm Standard, 9mm Makarov
Good(12): .38 power, 10mm Colt
Good(15): .357 magnum, .45 ACP, .45 long, .41 magnum
Excellent (18): .44 magnum


long arms: rifles
Damage________Calibers (+notes)
Good (9): .22 long rifle
Good(12): .256 Mannlicher-Carcano, .30 Caliber Carbine
Good(15): 7.62mm Soviet, 7.62mm Czechoslovak M 1952, 7.62mm Mosin-Nagant, 7mm Spanish Mauser, .30-06 Caliber Springfield, 7.65mm Argentine Mauser, .303 British, 7.92mm Kurtz, 8mm Lebel, 8mm Mannlicher,
Excellent (18): 5.45mm Soviet, 7.62mm NATO, 7.5mm French MAS, 7.5mm Swiss, 7.92mm Mauser,
Excellent (21): .223 Armalite,
Excellent (24): 12.7mm Soviet (machine gun), .50 Caliber Browning (machine gun)
Remarkable(27): 14.5mm Soviet (machine gun)

"double tap" 2 bullets for the attack, +1 CS damage on a yellow or better result
short bursts (3-5 bullets; varies): submachine guns, assault rifles: +2 CS damage, single target
burst/spray multiple targets, base damage, large amounts of ammo (approx 1/2 clip)

is a start, I think. I might have to rethink it, though, the way +1 CS works out in FASERIP

Quote
GenghisDon
Revolvers, Automatic Pistols, Sub-machine Guns (inc machine pistols)
Damage________Calibers (+notes)
Poor(3): .22 short, .25 ACP, 5.45mm
Typical(6): .22 long, .32 ACP(7.65 mm), .32 long(revolver), 7.62mm Nagant, 7.63mm Mauser, 9mm Short,
Good(9): .38 special, 7.62mm Parabellum, 7.65mm Long, 9mm Standard, 9mm Makarov
Good(12): .38 power, 10mm Colt
Good(15): .357 magnum, .45 ACP, .45 long, .41 magnum
Excellent (18): .44 magnum


long arms: rifles
Damage________Calibers (+notes)
Good (9): .22 long rifle
Good(12): .256 Mannlicher-Carcano, .30 Caliber Carbine
Good(15): 7.62mm Soviet, 7.62mm Czechoslovak M 1952, 7.62mm Mosin-Nagant, 7mm Spanish Mauser, .30-06 Caliber Springfield, 7.65mm Argentine Mauser, .303 British, 7.92mm Kurtz, 8mm Lebel, 8mm Mannlicher,
Excellent (18): 5.45mm Soviet, 7.62mm NATO, 7.5mm French MAS, 7.5mm Swiss, 7.92mm Mauser,
Excellent (21): .223 Armalite,
Excellent (24): 12.7mm Soviet (machine gun), .50 Caliber Browning (machine gun)
Remarkable(27): 14.5mm Soviet (machine gun)

"double tap" 2 bullets for the attack, +1 CS damage on a yellow or better result
short bursts (3-5 bullets; varies): submachine guns, assault rifles: +2 CS damage, single target
burst/spray multiple targets, base damage, large amounts of ammo (approx 1/2 clip)

is a start, I think. I might have to rethink it, though, the way +1 CS works out in FASERIP

The velocity of the bullets and the damage they can do once they peice the flesh is far worse than the Marvel rank of Good. There is also damage over time.

With some guns, a hit anywhere will produce a fatality unless the victim gets medical attention quickly.

A standard police vest can only stop small firearms. If it's an assault rifle, like an AR 10 or 15, they are mostly useless.

A character's endurance won't matter much. He needs artificial or natural body armor of an excellent rank or more to avoid damage...I think. With laser sights, you don't need good agility or aim to get a hit.

I'd agree...for some bullets.

a knife or sword wound does damage over time too, but not in the game. It's just how it goes (but see 0 health).

not exactly...some are extremely lethal, but one only need look to RL war stories to see that "impossible to survive" injuries sometimes don't even slow some guys down much (or more often, not right away). However, in favor of this, the game is actually pretty deadly for normals that get shot down (see 0 health).

yes...but what protection (body armor rank) is it? typical? at best good? I'm not set on the preliminary figures I set, but among the rifles the only one stymied would be the .22...and then only with standard ammo.

"Endurance" matters a ton...in game or in real life. Going into shock means "game over" in the real world, and it doesn't happen automatically. This is why some favor tested "man stoppers" over supposedly superior rounds with better statistics for penetration, accuracy, etc. It's also quite unpredictable; some X factors that might as well be represented as the luck of a die roll. Some guys can take 4 hits & not go down, while another is done in one hit just like one of the 4.

I think the game models those notions pretty well; base damage, or base average human health are perhaps issues, but the mechanics are pretty good...so let's talk about 0 health now.

Guns are extra deadly...once you get a target to 0 health (or score a red/kill shot earlier). The endurance feat to avoid loosing endurance levels (ie begin to die) requires a yellow, not a green, success. This is a difficult roll for superhuman endurance characters to make...normal types are usually toast. This kinda feeds back to your notion about it not mattering, if you like. Poor END is 85% likely to buy the farm, Excellent is 70%.

If you want some extra bleeding rules, go for it, but I have no interest in them...too cumbersome, & frankly, difficult to model well, I've noticed, in other systems, let alone MSH. The kill/0 health end rank losses do that enough for me; very well indeed. It's a major factor IRL though, yes...but not just for bullets (though it is very bad for them), but for all cuts & punctures, and frankly, even bludgeoning, pummeling or other impacts; be they internal injuries/bleeding, or split skin, etc.

Where I will say MSH has a potential verisimilitude issue, though, is in the area of instant kills...as in, there are none. There ought be a bypass to the loss of END ranks. I get why there is not, and the tone set by this, but forget guns, as people actually do not die all THAT often from getting shot if they get prompt, skilled medical care...think much worse. A big NUKE does shift Z (500) damage...but that still doesn't auto-kill average humans, let alone Spider-man, Colossus, Mr Fantastic, Namor or Captain America. One can work at that, or not, and just make some house rules if they want. I think it's a different issue to firearm base damage however.