Hello, this is my first post here.

Some friends and I have started a Classic Marvel game, and I have a specific question: I've read somewhere on this Forum, that True Invulnerability has been houseruled into a more "manageable" power. I tried to find that houserule, but with no success. Could someone please explain this houserule to me? I would really appreciate that.

Oh man... time to rivet down the top on that can of worms.

TAG

Search for "New Updated Digital Advanced RPG Books" in the archived forum. Let's leave it there.

TAG

Heart of the Tiger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello, this is my first post here.
>
> Some friends and I have started a Classic Marvel
> game, and I have a specific question: I've read
> somewhere on this Forum, that True Invulnerability
> has been houseruled into a more "manageable"
> power. I tried to find that houserule, but with no
> success. Could someone please explain this
> houserule to me? I would really appreciate that.

The writeup for the power True Invulnerability that you are looking for is located on page 82 of The Ultimate Powers Book Updated Version 2.5
[www.classicmarvelforever.com]







The Cutter

Thanks a lot.

That's how I was using true invulnerability for years and before I owned the Ultimate Powers Book.

With the exception: I allow in most cases Sonic attacks with area effect against those characters with ears to be affected. Regardless of their true invulnerability rank

G.A.W. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's how I was using true invulnerability for
> years and before I owned the Ultimate Powers
> Book.
>
> With the exception: I allow in most cases Sonic
> attacks with area effect against those characters
> with ears to be affected. Regardless of their true
> invulnerability rank

Well there is a difference between inflicting harm and non-harmful effects from something. Juggernaut's immune to injury from sonic attacks like everything else but could still be disorientated by one (as Nimrod demonstrated). So even if your TI rank is sufficient to take no injury you could still be affected by non-harmful side effects (generally, blinding flashes aren't going to blind someone with TI since they can't actually inflict the damage that would cause blindness even temporarily).

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> G.A.W. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's how I was using true invulnerability for
> > years and before I owned the Ultimate Powers
> > Book.
> >
> > With the exception: I allow in most cases
> Sonic
> > attacks with area effect against those
> characters
> > with ears to be affected. Regardless of their
> true
> > invulnerability rank
>
> Well there is a difference between inflicting harm
> and non-harmful effects from something.
> Juggernaut's immune to injury from sonic attacks
> like everything else but could still be
> disorientated by one (as Nimrod demonstrated). So
> even if your TI rank is sufficient to take no
> injury you could still be affected by non-harmful
> side effects (generally, blinding flashes aren't
> going to blind someone with TI since they can't
> actually inflict the damage that would cause
> blindness even temporarily).


It might not blind them, but a constant source of bright/directed light should still be disorienting.
Sorta like the sonics example.
I've always ruled that TI will prevent the damage. But, it does not automatically include protected senses. It's still possible to overwhelm their senses with too much input.

True Invulnerability works awesome against damage.Against modifiers, not so much.

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True Invulnerability works awesome against
> damage.Against modifiers, not so much.


Quoted for truth.

TAG

I've implemented a 'House Rule' for True Invulnerability...


Basically it holds 'TRUE' to all and any attacks (or Damage Types) at Rank Value...


RM:30 True Invulnerability would subtract 30 points from any and all oncoming attacks no matter what payload (or Damage Type) that attack has.

AM:50 True Invulnerability would subtract 50 points from any and all oncoming attacks no matter what payload (or Damage Type) that attack has.

UN:100 True Invulnerability would subtract 100 points from any and all oncoming attacks no matter what payload (or Damage Type) that attack has.

and so forth...


Some players at my table have adopted the name of 'Universal Invulnerability' to cover 'Universal Damage'

Some people hate it... some people love it... some just don't care...





P15/TrueInvulnerability:This is a combination of Resistances and Body Armor. The hero is immune to any physical harm, upto his rank's limit. The immunity includes the following resistance: fire, heat, cold, electricity, radiation, corrosives, disease, poison, brute force, sonics, and kinetic bolts. The rank of the Invulnerability reduces the rank of the attack form. Example: A Mandroid's Excellent laser would do only Good damage against Good Invulnerability, and none at all against Excellent Invulnerability. The hero with this Power is still vulnerable to magical and mental attacks. If the hero should lose his True Invulnerability, his Fighting rank drops to Typical (he's not used to avoiding blows). The hero's appearance is not affected by this power; he appears to be a normal member of his race.


The original Rule Book is absolutely fine as is; however, most Players at my Table do try to manipulate and bend the rules to suit their needs.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've implemented a 'House Rule' for True
> Invulnerability...
>
>
> Basically it holds 'TRUE' to all and any attacks
> (or Damage Types) at Rank Value...
>
>
> RM:30 True Invulnerability would subtract 30
> points from any and all oncoming attacks no matter
> what payload (or Damage Type) that attack has.
>
> AM:50 True Invulnerability would subtract 50
> points from any and all oncoming attacks no matter
> what payload (or Damage Type) that attack has.
>
> UN:100 True Invulnerability would subtract 100
> points from any and all oncoming attacks no matter
> what payload (or Damage Type) that attack has.
>
> and so forth...
>
>
> Some players at my table have adopted the name of
> 'Universal Invulnerability' to cover 'Universal
> Damage'
>
> Some people hate it... some people love it... some
> just don't care...
>
>
>
>
>
> P15/TrueInvulnerability:This is a combination of
> Resistances and Body Armor. The hero is immune to
> any physical harm, upto his rank's limit. The
> immunity includes the following resistance: fire,
> heat, cold, electricity, radiation, corrosives,
> disease, poison, brute force, sonics, and kinetic
> bolts. The rank of the Invulnerability reduces the
> rank of the attack form. Example: A Mandroid's
> Excellent laser would do only Good damage against
> Good Invulnerability, and none at all against
> Excellent Invulnerability. The hero with this
> Power is still vulnerable to magical and mental
> attacks. If the hero should lose his True
> Invulnerability, his Fighting rank drops to
> Typical (he's not used to avoiding blows). The
> hero's appearance is not affected by this power;
> he appears to be a normal member of his race.
>
>
> The original Rule Book is absolutely fine as is;
> however, most Players at my Table do try to
> manipulate and bend the rules to suit their needs.

Yeah, that's not True Invulnerability that's Body Resistance. You want straight 'power rank number decreases amount of damage done' you go with Body Resistance, you want actual True Invulnerability you go with True Invulnerability and get Column shift damage reduction. Otherwise you're an idiot for taking a nerfed TI at 2 power slot cost when you aren't getting anything better than you'd get from 1 slot Body Resistance or Armor Skin. It's supposed to be impressive at such a cost, might as well just say 'I only allow Body Resistance in my campaigns' and be done with it instead of turning a 2-slot power into a 1-slot power and still charging 2 slots or trying to claim it's somehow still a 2-slot power when it isn't.

And dear Night Mask, you have explicitly illustrated the very reason I use this 'House Rule'...


Column Shifting the Damage Down means your Character only needs about AM:50 True Invulnerability to have the Iron-Clad Armor and Body Resistance of Superman and Juggernaut; combined.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And dear Night Mask, you have explicitly
> illustrated the very reason I use this 'House
> Rule'...

Clearly I haven't since nothing I said supports any such house rule, it supports using the power either as it is or saying you exclude it from selection not nerfing it to the point it's worthless and only an idiot would select it when it doesn't provide anything Body Resistance doesn't and for half the cost. If you're going to house rule TI as BR then might as well just be honest about not wanting the power in your game and just say 'sorry TI is on the banned list of powers, it'll take too long to kill your character if you have it'.

> Column Shifting the Damage Down means your
> Character only needs about AM:50 True
> Invulnerability to have the Iron-Clad Armor and
> Body Resistance of Superman and Juggernaut;
> combined.

Juggernaut's way more durable than that, and certainly Amazing TI isn't going to make you superior let alone equal to either of them let alone their combined durability. Juggernaut and Superman ignore nuclear explosions, Amazing TI is going to die if not immediately then from that damage plus all the added issues of being caught in one. TI, itself, isn't a problem or at least no more so than any other protection like BR. Amazing rank in either and you're having to work out ways to defeat your opponent that likely don't require beating his health to zero.

CAN 'O' WORMS

turning into a

BARREL 'O' SNAKES






First Off... As written, both Powers are nearly the same and widely open to interpretation and elaboration...

Secondly... I'm not banning either Power or favoring one over another to suit a particular bias...

Thirdly... I see 'TRUE' as a universal and absolute definition... holding a consistency across 'ALL' any 'ANY' context....

Fourth... I see 'True Invulnerability' for Robots, Androids, and Power-Armor Charcters, with a 'Flat' Rank Reduction.

Fifth... I see 'Body Resistance' for Meta-Humans, like Hulk, Superman, Green Lantern, Thing, and Thor, with 'Effort' based Reduction and Recovery.

Sixth... The Game Mechanics are meant to support 'House Rules' and modifications...


Page 80

P2/Body Resistance: This is the form of Body Armor most heroes want. The hero's body is composed of apparently normal flesh. However, the tissue of capable of withstanding major damage without showing any effects. The resistance covers physical and energy attacks only.

The Intensity rank number of the attack is reduced by this Power's rank number. The remaining Intensity is the actual damage the hero suffers. While the hero's skin shows the effects of the tremendous abuse it suffers, at least it heals quickly. The Power enables the epidermis to heal at a tenfold rate.

An Optional Power is Regeneration.

(Body Resistance = Column Shifting the Attack Damage Down)

EX:20 Body Resistance = [-5 Ranks] from an oncoming attack.

An UN:100 Attack gets reduced to RM:30 Damage (That's REAL Damn Tough for EX:20 Resistance)

With AM:50 Body Resistance, it's [-8 Ranks] from an oncoming attack. (You have be hit with SY:200 Attacks to even notice) That's WAY TOO DAMN Tough for AM:50 Resistance...



Page 82

P15/True Invulnerability: This is a combination of Resistance and Body Armor. The hero is immune to any physical harm, up to his rank's limit. The immunity includes the following resistance: fire, heat, cold, electricity, radiation, corrosives, disease, poison, brute force, sonic, and kinetic bolts. The rank of the Invulnerability reduces the rank of the attack form.

Example: A Mandroid's Excellent 20 laser would do only Good 10 damage against Good 10 Invulnerability, and none at all against Excellent 20 Invulnerability.

The hero with this Power is still vulnerable to magical and mental attacks. If the hero should lose his True Invulnerability, his Fighting rank drops to Typical (he's not used to avoiding blows). The hero's appearance is not affected by this power; he appears to be a normal member of his race.

(True Invulnerability = Armor Rank subtracts from the Attack's Rank)


Those are straight out of the book... But place all this non-sense aside....


Both Powers are explicitly vulnerable magical and mental attacks, Thus, the 'House Rules' I implemented comes down to these game mechanics....


- True Invulnerability holds 'TRUE' to ALL and ANY Damage types across the spectrum at Rank Limit. Your Armor Rank directly subtracts from the Attack's Intensity Rank.


- Body Resistance allows Column Shifting the Attack Damage Down, and since Body Resistance is a less expensive Power where you only need a small amount of Body Resistance to endure really heavy damage you're are limited to how many Damage Types you can endure.... Plus, Body Resistance allows faster healing and recovery.



Since I prefer Character Balance (and Character Points) I choose to explain these 'House Rules' in my Game Campaigns.


You can take BR at 50 points to resist upwards of AM:50 to SY:200 'Physical' (or Specific) Damage Types and Regen your Health back at an accelerated rate. Plus you can FEAT Roll to amp-up the Power to resist greater impact and recover quickly from Damage and Injury.


OR


You can take TI at 50 points to resist ALL and ANY attacks across the spectrum with a Flat AM:50 Protection Rank.



And, as a GM I do allow both powers in a Game Campaign... And if I allow enough Character Points, I even allow both Powers on the same Character should the Player want to play an Iron-Clad 'HULK-TANK-ULTON' Character that can endure extreme punishment.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you're going to house rule TI as BR then
> might as well just be honest about not wanting
> the power in your game and just say 'sorry TI
> is on the banned list of powers, it'll take too
> long to kill your character if you have it'.

That's rather presumptuous on two parts. One in assuming that you know what other people want for their game and two for the motivation. If someone wants to reduce what they feel is overpowered for their game, that doesn't mean that they don't want the power in the game at all. Perhaps it means that they don't want too much resistance to damage to come too easily, reducing the overall challenge. Yes, yes, I know... having T.I. does not prevent a character from being stopped in other ways... whatever. And wanting people not to be able to walk their characters through virtually all kinds of damage with no risk does not mean the judge wants to kill their characters, but perhaps just wants to introduce a sense of risk which can't be felt unless suddenly every threat the T.I. possessor faces has mental and/or magical powers. Again, whatever. How you run and/or view your own games is not how everyone else views their's.


Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, that's not True Invulnerability that's Body
> Resistance. You want straight 'power rank number
> decreases amount of damage done' you go with Body
> Resistance, you want actual True Invulnerability
> you go with True Invulnerability and get Column
> shift damage reduction. Otherwise you're an idiot
> for taking a nerfed TI at 2 power slot cost when
> you aren't getting anything better than you'd get
> from 1 slot Body Resistance or Armor Skin. It's
> supposed to be impressive at such a cost, might as
> well just say 'I only allow Body Resistance in my
> campaigns' and be done with it instead of turning
> a 2-slot power into a 1-slot power and still
> charging 2 slots or trying to claim it's somehow
> still a 2-slot power when it isn't.

If Body Resistance protects against all damage types, then it too should cost two slots. Also, suggesting someone is an idiot for taking a weaker power sounds inflammatory and is the kind of talk that stirs up unnecessary conflict over what was clear presented as a house rule. You don't like it, then don't use it yourself.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you're going to house rule TI as BR then
> > might as well just be honest about not wanting
> > the power in your game and just say 'sorry TI
> > is on the banned list of powers, it'll take too
> > long to kill your character if you have it'.
>
> That's rather presumptuous on two parts. One in
> assuming that you know what other people want for
> their game and two for the motivation. If someone
> wants to reduce what they feel is overpowered for
> their game, that doesn't mean that they don't want
> the power in the game at all. Perhaps it means
> that they don't want too much resistance to damage
> to come too easily, reducing the overall
> challenge. Yes, yes, I know... having T.I. does
> not prevent a character from being stopped in
> other ways... whatever. And wanting people not to
> be able to walk their characters through virtually
> all kinds of damage with no risk does not mean the
> judge wants to kill their characters, but perhaps
> just wants to introduce a sense of risk which
> can't be felt unless suddenly every threat the
> T.I. possessor faces has mental and/or magical
> powers. Again, whatever. How you run and/or view
> your own games is not how everyone else views
> their's.

One doesn't have the power in their game if they've removed enough aspects of it that it no longer is the same power, one can't claim to have the power when it's not the same power it's a weaker power packaged with the same cost and name of the much more expensive power.

> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, that's not True Invulnerability that's
> Body
> > Resistance. You want straight 'power rank
> number
> > decreases amount of damage done' you go with
> Body
> > Resistance, you want actual True
> Invulnerability
> > you go with True Invulnerability and get Column
> > shift damage reduction. Otherwise you're an
> idiot
> > for taking a nerfed TI at 2 power slot cost
> when
> > you aren't getting anything better than you'd
> get
> > from 1 slot Body Resistance or Armor Skin.
> It's
> > supposed to be impressive at such a cost, might
> as
> > well just say 'I only allow Body Resistance in
> my
> > campaigns' and be done with it instead of
> turning
> > a 2-slot power into a 1-slot power and still
> > charging 2 slots or trying to claim it's
> somehow
> > still a 2-slot power when it isn't.
>
> If Body Resistance protects against all damage
> types, then it too should cost two slots. Also,
> suggesting someone is an idiot for taking a weaker
> power sounds inflammatory and is the kind of talk
> that stirs up unnecessary conflict over what was
> clear presented as a house rule. You don't like
> it, then don't use it yourself.

Well good thing I didn't say that then, I said they'd be an idiot for taking what amounts to Body Resistance but at twice the cost because you'd be an idiot for taking what amounts to a one-slot power but charges two because paying twice as much for no gain would be stupid. Also no Body Resistance shouldn't cost two slots even though it protects against so much, the power is one of the most common and cheap powers in super-powered settings and it would be ridiculous to price it at two slots. One Slot powers are either extremely common (Body Resistance, Telekinesis, True Flight) or fairly weak and/or limited (Resistance to Disease), with Two Slot powers generally extremely powerful (Reality Alteration) or extremely useful (Teleportation), which includes being a more powerful version of a weaker, one-slot power.

Body Resistance covers nearly all damage types of a physical or energy sort but only rank number damage reduction, True Invulnerability as a far more powerful and comprehensive version covers all forms of physical and energy but gives CS damage reduction instead of rank number because it just doesn't properly reflect that two-slot cost otherwise.

Tanker you're clearly making use of an altered PDF and not the actual book because the actual book says the laser damage is Feeble after Good TI gets through with it not Good. Nor is Body Resistance CS reduction it's rank number reduction.

So correcting for whatever PDF you're using, Body Resistance is straight up subtract Rank Number of BR from rank number of attack to get amount of damage done. True Invulnerability you reduce the rank of the attack by the number of columns of the power rank of the TI to determine damage based on whatever the remaining rank's number is (hence why in the TI example Excellent damage attack is reduced to Feeble by Good rank TI).

Also, True Invulnerability provides access to Regeneration as an optional power just as Body Resistance does but unlike BR doesn't have that fast-healing skin (do note that only the skin heals fast for straight BR), so if you do get injured like a cut on your arm it won't heal faster than a normal person's would without also taking Regeneration.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tanker you're clearly making use of an altered PDF
> and not the actual book because the actual book
> says the laser damage is Feeble after Good TI gets
> through with it not Good. Nor is Body Resistance
> CS reduction it's rank number reduction.
>

I also read the mentioned powers this way. I have the unaltered version of the Ultimate Powers book, that's why I asked for the houserule version of True invulnerability, which is in the 2.5 version (AFAIK a fan- modified version).

Also, True Invulnerability from UP2.5 is not the same as Body Resistance, because Body Resistance does not protect its owner from diseases, corrosives or other things that are covered by True Invulnerability, depending on how you read the "energy attacks" statement from Body Resistance.
And if Vanilla True Invulnerability was balanced, it would cost at least 4 times as much as Body Resistance, 1x for Body Resistance, 1x for the other stuff not covered by Body Resistance and 2 x for the column shift, which is way more powerful than a straight reduction, especially if you houserule "if you cannot CS down (for example because the attack is CL1000 and you cannot shift below that), you use this power as if you had Body Resistance of the same rank if the attack would normally be affected by TI".
I only mention this houserule, because I know some groups use it.

Heart of the Tiger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tanker you're clearly making use of an altered
> PDF
> > and not the actual book because the actual book
> > says the laser damage is Feeble after Good TI
> gets
> > through with it not Good. Nor is Body
> Resistance
> > CS reduction it's rank number reduction.
> >
>
> I also read the mentioned powers this way. I have
> the unaltered verion of the Ultimate Powers book,
> thats why I asked for the houseruled version of
> True invulnerability, which is in the 2.5 verion
> (AFAIK a fan- modified version).
>
> Also, True Invulnerability from UP2.5 is not the
> same as Body Resistance, because Body Resistance
> does not protect its owner from diseases,
> corrosives or other things that are covered by
> True Invulnerability, depending on how you read
> the "energy attacks" statement from Body
> Resistance.
> And if Vanilla True Invulnerability was balanced,
> it would cost at least 4 times as much as Body
> Resistance, 1x for Body Resistance, 1x for the
> other stuff not covered by Body Resistance and 2 x
> for the column shift, which is way more powerful
> than a straight reduction, especially if you
> houserule "if you cannot CS down (for example
> because the attack is CL1000 and you cannot shift
> below that), you use this power as if you had Body
> Resistance of the same rank if the attack would
> normally be affected by TI".
> I only mention this houserule, because I know some
> groups use it.

True Invulnerability is Body Resistance Deluxe, which you'd expect from a a 2-slot version of a 1-slot power. The expanded range of things it covers isn't much more than BR does (and not like those things are common), and of course CS reduction is more powerful than straight reduction hence why it raises things to the 2-slot level for TI. It doesn't however rate the idea of tripling or quadrupling the cost of TI compared to BR. On the remote chance a GM tossed a CL1000 attack at a character with TI he's dead anyway, even if he had Shift Z TI since he can't CS it down and even if you let him make use of the TI rank as a straight damage reduction he'd still take at least 500 damage which would kill anyone, and if he's letting such ranks into a game he probably should be allowing CS reduction of CL1000+ attacks if he's making use of them like that.

TI is one of the few powers that allows for resisting being teleported without consent.

The end result is the two Powers are offered to appeal to a player's creative concepts...


Body Resistance conceptually works better for a 'Meta-Human' Character or Concept.
- Hulk, Thor, Goku, Namor, Lantern, etc -
(Effort Based Resistance / Healing / Recovery / Variable Ranks and percentage Defenses)
(VERY Strong to certain Damage Types and effects, but fully susceptible to other Damage Types and effects)




True Invulnerability conceptually works better for a 'Robot' or 'Power-Armor' Character or Concept.
- Iron-Man, Ultron, Robo-Cop, Terminator, Steel, etc -
(Flat Damage Resistance at Rank with Zero Effort)
(TI offers less protection than BR, but covers an extraordinary broad range of Damage Types and effects)



And Yes, the two Defensive Armor Sets can be justified and criss-crossed .... but again, most players go through that justification to simply exploit the Rule Book...


Juggernaut and Superman...

(Two Meta-Human Characters who have TI and they are notoriously ridiculed for being Over-Powered in game mechanics... Then Juggernaut and Superman get retconed for balance and people flip-out.... It simply becomes a never ending and undisputed argument)




And Finally, Moving onward to the original question...




Some friends and I have started a Classic Marvel game, and I have a specific question: I've read somewhere on this Forum, that True Invulnerability has been houseruled into a more "manageable" power. I tried to find that houserule, but with no success. Could someone please explain this houserule to me? I would really appreciate that.


These Topics of 'House Rules' have typically escalated into 'HUGE' forum flame wars...

And The Forum Moderators close off the topic to keep the peace...



But the more 'Manageable' house rule that I use and suggest is...

- True Invulnerability holds 'TRUE' to ALL and ANY Damage Types across the spectrum at Rank Limit. Your Armor Rank directly subtracts from the Attack's Rank.

Example:

MN:75 Blast Attack hits IN:40 TI Character...
(75 - 40 = 35)

The TI Character suffers FN:35 Damage


AM:50 Power Blast Attack hits AM:50 TI Character...
(50 - 50 = 0)

The TI Character suffers zero Damage

(Since TI doesn't offer Column Shifting Mechanics, it offers Rank Protection to ALL Damage Types)




- Body Resistance allows Column Shifting the Attack Damage Down. The Character only needs a small amount of Body Resistance to endure heavy damage, however, you are limited to how many Damage Types you can endure.... Plus, Body Resistance allows faster healing and recovery.


FB:02 Body Resistance allows [-1 Ranks] Column Shifting
PR:04 Body Resistance allows [-2 Ranks] Column Shifting
TY:06 Body Resistance allows [-3 Ranks] Column Shifting
GD:10 Body Resistance allows [-4 Ranks] Column Shifting
EX:20 Body Resistance allows [-5 Ranks] Column Shifting
RM:30 Body Resistance allows [-6 Ranks] Column Shifting
IN:40 Body Resistance allows [-7 Ranks] Column Shifting
AM:50 Body Resistance allows [-8 Ranks] Column Shifting
MN:75 Body Resistance allows [-9 Ranks] Column Shifting
UN:100 Body Resistance allows [-10 Ranks] Column Shifting


If you do a little bit of Grid Checking... You will quickly discover that Body Resistance and True Invulnerability can be exploited... However, Body Resistance can be exploited a little more so.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you do a little bit of Grid Checking... You
> will quickly discover that Body Resistance and
> True Invulnerability can be exploited... However,
> Body Resistance can be exploited a little more so.

Well, if someone wants to do a lot of exploiting, they can take both powers.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The end result is the two Powers are offered to
> appeal to a player's creative concepts...
>
>
> Body Resistance conceptually works better for a
> 'Meta-Human' Character or Concept.
> - Hulk, Thor, Goku, Namor, Lantern, etc -
> (Effort Based Resistance / Healing / Recovery /
> Variable Ranks and percentage Defenses)
> (VERY Strong to certain Damage Types and effects,
> but fully susceptible to other Damage Types and
> effects)
>
>
>
>
> True Invulnerability conceptually works better for
> a 'Robot' or 'Power-Armor' Character or Concept.
> - Iron-Man, Ultron, Robo-Cop, Terminator, Steel,
> etc -
> (Flat Damage Resistance at Rank with Zero Effort)
> (TI offers less protection than BR, but covers an
> extraordinary broad range of Damage Types and
> effects)
>
>
>
> And Yes, the two Defensive Armor Sets can be
> justified and criss-crossed .... but again, most
> players go through that justification to simply
> exploit the Rule Book...
>
>
> Juggernaut and Superman...
>
> (Two Meta-Human Characters who have TI and they
> are notoriously ridiculed for being Over-Powered
> in game mechanics... Then Juggernaut and Superman
> get retconed for balance and people flip-out....
> It simply becomes a never ending and undisputed
> argument)
>
>
>
>
> And Finally, Moving onward to the original
> question...
>
>
>
>
> Some friends and I have started a Classic Marvel
> game, and I have a specific question: I've read
> somewhere on this Forum, that True Invulnerability
> has been houseruled into a more "manageable"
> power. I tried to find that houserule, but with no
> success. Could someone please explain this
> houserule to me? I would really appreciate that.
>
>
> These Topics of 'House Rules' have typically
> escalated into 'HUGE' forum flame wars...
>
> And The Forum Moderators close off the topic to
> keep the peace...
>
>
>
> But the more 'Manageable' house rule that I use
> and suggest is...
>
> - True Invulnerability holds 'TRUE' to ALL and ANY
> Damage Types across the spectrum at Rank Limit.
> Your Armor Rank directly subtracts from the
> Attack's Rank.
>
> Example:
>
> MN:75 Blast Attack hits IN:40 TI Character...
> (75 - 40 = 35)
>
> The TI Character suffers FN:35 Damage
>
>
> AM:50 Power Blast Attack hits AM:50 TI
> Character...
> (50 - 50 = 0)
>
> The TI Character suffers zero Damage
>
> (Since TI doesn't offer Column Shifting Mechanics,
> it offers Rank Protection to ALL Damage Types)
>
>
>
>
> - Body Resistance allows Column Shifting the
> Attack Damage Down. The Character only needs a
> small amount of Body Resistance to endure heavy
> damage, however, you are limited to how many
> Damage Types you can endure.... Plus, Body
> Resistance allows faster healing and recovery.
>
>
> FB:02 Body Resistance allows [-1 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> PR:04 Body Resistance allows [-2 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> TY:06 Body Resistance allows [-3 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> GD:10 Body Resistance allows [-4 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> EX:20 Body Resistance allows [-5 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> RM:30 Body Resistance allows [-6 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> IN:40 Body Resistance allows [-7 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> AM:50 Body Resistance allows [-8 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> MN:75 Body Resistance allows [-9 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> UN:100 Body Resistance allows [-10 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
>
>
> If you do a little bit of Grid Checking... You
> will quickly discover that Body Resistance and
> True Invulnerability can be exploited... However,
> Body Resistance can be exploited a little more so.

So you what, make Body Resistance into TI and TI into Body Resistance? So that the much more effective CS damage reduction is the cheapest and most easily accessed thing at one-slot and normal straight-up damage reduction costs twice as much? That's bizarre and certainly not what I'd consider 'manageable' as a house rule, making the most complained about thing regarding TI (CS Damage Reduction) the easiest and most accessible instead of leaving it as it should be, a costly 2-slot power.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> - Body Resistance allows Column Shifting the
> Attack Damage Down. The Character only needs a
> small amount of Body Resistance to endure heavy
> damage, however, you are limited to how many
> Damage Types you can endure.... Plus, Body
> Resistance allows faster healing and recovery.
>
>
> FB:02 Body Resistance allows [-1 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> PR:04 Body Resistance allows [-2 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> TY:06 Body Resistance allows [-3 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> GD:10 Body Resistance allows [-4 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> EX:20 Body Resistance allows [-5 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> RM:30 Body Resistance allows [-6 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> IN:40 Body Resistance allows [-7 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> AM:50 Body Resistance allows [-8 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> MN:75 Body Resistance allows [-9 Ranks] Column
> Shifting
> UN:100 Body Resistance allows [-10 Ranks] Column
> Shifting

I'm fairly new to Marvel Superheroes and could therefore be completely wrong, but that's not how I read BR at all, IMHO that's how TI was intended to work, which is why it was houseruled to work as BR does.

On a sidenote, if people are concerned the houseruled TI from UP2.5 is too expensive now, one could just state that someone with TI also has Age Resistance equal to the power's rank.

Heart of the Tiger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TankerAce Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > - Body Resistance allows Column Shifting the
> > Attack Damage Down. The Character only needs a
> > small amount of Body Resistance to endure heavy
> > damage, however, you are limited to how many
> > Damage Types you can endure.... Plus, Body
> > Resistance allows faster healing and recovery.
> >
> >
> > FB:02 Body Resistance allows [-1 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > PR:04 Body Resistance allows [-2 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > TY:06 Body Resistance allows [-3 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > GD:10 Body Resistance allows [-4 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > EX:20 Body Resistance allows [-5 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > RM:30 Body Resistance allows [-6 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > IN:40 Body Resistance allows [-7 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > AM:50 Body Resistance allows [-8 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > MN:75 Body Resistance allows [-9 Ranks] Column
> > Shifting
> > UN:100 Body Resistance allows [-10 Ranks]
> Column
> > Shifting
>
> I'm fairly new to Marvel Superheroes and could
> therefore be completely wrong, but that's not how
> I read BR at all, IMHO that's how TI was intended
> to work, which is why it was houseruled to work as
> BR does.
>
> On a sidenote, if people are concerned the
> houseruled TI from UP2.5 is too expensive now, one
> could just state that someone with TI also has Age
> Resistance equal to the power's rank.

How often does any character ever have to worry about aging in the average game? The average character is of exceptional health (Good Endurance or higher) and often has powers that pretty much negate wear and tear on their bodies which would mean being able to remain in your prime for decades.

Myself I've never seen the reason for the complaints about TI's CS damage reduction being 'too powerful', it's just felt like so much 'but he should go down in a few hits I shouldn't have to really work at taking him down', from either players about a TI-possessing villain or the GM towards a TI-possessing PC. Even though in the comics it's common for it to take way more than a few punches to take down a villain particularly the more powerful ones. It'd hardly be worth bragging about if Cyclops took out Apocalypse with a few shots after all. Many villains yes they do go down after a half-dozen or so strikes but many others don't, and some require finding a better method than beating them unconscious to beat (like Diamond Lil, immune to any harm from Unearthly and less ranked attacks, but only Remarkable Strength).

Nightmask Wrote:

> How often does any character ever have to worry
> about aging in the average game? The average
> character is of exceptional health (Good Endurance
> or higher) and often has powers that pretty much
> negate wear and tear on their bodies which would
> mean being able to remain in your prime for
> decades.

I never claimed that my idea is ideal, I just thought it would somehow fit the idea of TI, btw there are powers that can age people, are there not?

Heart of the Tiger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
>
> > How often does any character ever have to worry
> > about aging in the average game? The average
> > character is of exceptional health (Good
> Endurance
> > or higher) and often has powers that pretty
> much
> > negate wear and tear on their bodies which
> would
> > mean being able to remain in your prime for
> > decades.
>
> I never claimed my idea to be ideal, I just
> thought it would somehow fit the idea of TI, btw
> there are powers that can age people, are there
> not?

The only one I know of is Biophysical Control (Aging) from the UPB and it's not like it's not reverseable. The Skrulls also have a hand-held weapon that can also rapidly age a target but it too can be reversed. They definitely aren't common, the average long-duration hero like Spider-man or Thor might see such a thing happen a half a dozen times in their entire comic book career so it's not something that should be common by any stretch of the imagination in a game.

I think TI as a CS can work, but only when taken at lower levels. It's when you're CSing attacks -6 to -10 that it gets ridiculous. Even at Typical rank, TI would reduce an UN 100 attack down 60 points to a more manageable IN 40... and UN attacks are generally not all that common in the Marvel-verse. Against an AM 50 attack, Typical TI would reduce it to Excellent 20. It seems like everyone who takes TI wants it at AM or higher.