When scratching up some house rules for my Roll20 game, I realized that there was too much granularity (i.e. complexity) in the defensive power rules for my old brain to parse during a game session. I guess when I was running this game back in the day (my early to mid twenties) I could remember all the different rules, but I've been having a rough time with that in the few test games I ran.

So, I decided to simplify the function of the powers and roll a lot of them together in broad categories, as follows:

Armor Skin, Body Resistance and Body Armor: Provides power rank protection against physical and energy attacks.

Force Field: Provides power rank protection vs all forms of attack, unless that attack form specifically states it penetrates force fields (very rare). However, damage greater than the rank of the forcefield cause it to collapse. If the forcefield in non-technological in nature, the character must make a Psyche FEAT against the intensity of the attack, or pass out for 1d10 turns. If the forcefield is technological in nature, it is overloaded and non-functional for 1d10 turns, until the field generator recharges. On a bullseye result, the force field can be permanently damaged so that it cannot be used until someone makes a repair/tinkering feat to repair it (which cannot be done in the middle of combat). Non-technological forcefields can be raised again, the following turn, assuming the forcefield user was not rendered unconcious.

True Invulnerability: Provides power rank protection vs all forms of attack- no exceptions.

These are all subject to change. I haven't tested them extensively, and have no idea how this much simplified system will work in extended game play, so they may well be changed, or thrown out altogether as the game progresses.

With this system, the differences in Armor skin, body armor and skin resistance are mostly cosmetic. They function essentially the same, except that you can slice through body armor with edged attacks and eat through armor skin with rotting/corrosive touch. This makes skin resistance a bit superior, but body armor can be upgraded with Reason FEATS, so it balances out somewhat. I suppose Armor skin is the one that suffers the most, in this regard, but I would let Armor skin heros develop power stunts like forming spikes to make edged attacks and so forth, so it should work okay.

Force fields have a few significant advantages over the powers above: they can be extended to protect multiple people, and they prevent skin-to-skin contact (I sometimes have powers/effects that can be delivered simply by a touch- without having to actually inflict damage on the target. Force fields effectively prevent this, as long as they are up). Also, you can develop powers stunts with force fields, using them to do a myriad of things. The balancing aspect, is that they can collapse, either knocking the user unconcious or going inert until such a time as they recharge or the wielder can repair them.

True invulnerability is the best, in that it provides protection against ALL forms of attack (even providing resistance against mind control, which I treat as neither a physical or energy attack, but it's own form of attack). On the other hand, you can't develop power stunts for True Invulnerability, so it isn't as flexible as the other, somewhat weaker forms of protection.

I'm satisfied with the overall concept. How it will shake out with extended playtesting is something else, altogether. We'll see how it goes.

FASERIPPER Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When scratching up some house rules for my Roll20
> game, I realized that there was too much
> granularity (i.e. complexity) in the defensive
> power rules for my old brain to parse during a
> game session. I guess when I was running this
> game back in the day (my early to mid twenties) I
> could remember all the different rules, but I've
> been having a rough time with that in the few test
> games I ran.
>
> So, I decided to simplify the function of the
> powers and roll a lot of them together in broad
> categories, as follows:
>
> Armor Skin, Body Resistance and Body Armor:
> Provides power rank protection against physical
> and energy attacks.
>
> Force Field: Provides power rank protection vs all
> forms of attack, unless that attack form
> specifically states it penetrates force fields
> (very rare). However, damage greater than the rank
> of the forcefield cause it to collapse. If the
> forcefield in non-technological in nature, the
> character must make a Psyche FEAT against the
> intensity of the attack, or pass out for 1d10
> turns. If the forcefield is technological in
> nature, it is overloaded and non-functional for
> 1d10 turns, until the field generator recharges.
> On a bullseye result, the force field can be
> permanently damaged so that it cannot be used
> until someone makes a repair/tinkering feat to
> repair it (which cannot be done in the middle of
> combat). Non-technological forcefields can be
> raised again, the following turn, assuming the
> forcefield user was not rendered unconcious.
>
> True Invulnerability: Provides power rank
> protection vs all forms of attack- no exceptions.
>
> These are all subject to change. I haven't tested
> them extensively, and have no idea how this much
> simplified system will work in extended game play,
> so they may well be changed, or thrown out
> altogether as the game progresses.
>
> With this system, the differences in Armor skin,
> body armor and skin resistance are mostly
> cosmetic. They function essentially the same,
> except that you can slice through body armor with
> edged attacks and eat through armor skin with
> rotting/corrosive touch. This makes skin
> resistance a bit superior, but body armor can be
> upgraded with Reason FEATS, so it balances out
> somewhat. I suppose Armor skin is the one that
> suffers the most, in this regard, but I would let
> Armor skin heros develop power stunts like forming
> spikes to make edged attacks and so forth, so it
> should work okay.
>
> Force fields have a few significant advantages
> over the powers above: they can be extended to
> protect multiple people, and they prevent
> skin-to-skin contact (I sometimes have
> powers/effects that can be delivered simply by a
> touch- without having to actually inflict damage
> on the target. Force fields effectively prevent
> this, as long as they are up). Also, you can
> develop powers stunts with force fields, using
> them to do a myriad of things. The balancing
> aspect, is that they can collapse, either knocking
> the user unconcious or going inert until such a
> time as they recharge or the wielder can repair
> them.
>
> True invulnerability is the best, in that it
> provides protection against ALL forms of attack
> (even providing resistance against mind control,
> which I treat as neither a physical or energy
> attack, but it's own form of attack). On the
> other hand, you can't develop power stunts for
> True Invulnerability, so it isn't as flexible as
> the other, somewhat weaker forms of protection.
>
> I'm satisfied with the overall concept. How it
> will shake out with extended playtesting is
> something else, altogether. We'll see how it
> goes.

I like that. You still charge double for True Invulnerability?

I don't have to worry about that in my current game, as we're not buying powers at cost, but rather modelling characters with a set of broad restrictions (and I'm allowing very powerful characters to start, with the caveat that there will be only very limited increases in abilities later in the game).

For standard character generation, I'm not sure whether or not I would cost it out at two powers. It's clearly superior protection, but hasn't got the flexibility of the other defensive powers, so maybe it would be a wash.

One thing I've disovered over the years, is that to know whether or not something is decently balanced you have to actually use it in game a lot.

FASERIPPER Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't have to worry about that in my current
> game, as we're not buying powers at cost, but
> rather modelling characters with a set of broad
> restrictions (and I'm allowing very powerful
> characters to start, with the caveat that there
> will be only very limited increases in abilities
> later in the game).
>
> For standard character generation, I'm not sure
> whether or not I would cost it out at two powers.
> It's clearly superior protection, but hasn't got
> the flexibility of the other defensive powers, so
> maybe it would be a wash.

It's not really that superior though; sure you add in a few edge cases but the vast majority of the time there's zero difference in how much the character has to worry about if they've got BR vs TI when you've got both only providing rank number protection against damage. They certainly aren't worth charging twice what BR charges in cost. It's the CS protection that makes TI so expensive not the edge cases it also covers, when you remove that then you might as well just take BR because TI just isn't worth it.

You may have a good point there, Nightmask.

I would say it probably depends on how devious the Judge is about using villains with attack types that exploit the particular vulnerabilities of the defensive power that the player has.

It may also depend on which power generation method you're using, if you're rolling randomly for powers. The Advanced Players book method will net you an average of 3 or 4 powers, where as if you're using the Ultimate Powers method, you'll start with an average of 6 or 7 powers. In the latter case, some might feel that the extra defensive power coverage would be worth spending the extra power slot (much more so, if they got an outrageously lucky roll and are beginning with 12 or 14 powers).

Since my players have a lot of latitude in picking powers, it's not really an issue. If I were going to apply a cost to my version of True Invulnerability, I would probably go ahead and cost it at 2 powers. My version protects against Mind Control and Magical attacks (where as the standard version does not), so I sort of feel it is useful enough to warrant spending the extra power, in that regard.

FASERIPPER Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You may have a good point there, Nightmask.
>
> I would say it probably depends on how devious the
> Judge is about using villains with attack types
> that exploit the particular vulnerabilities of the
> defensive power that the player has.

Well unless you've a common weakness (like needing to breathe) most villains probably shouldn't be able to exploit those vulnerabilities. Unless the character was intentionally going up against people it was generally weak against for some reason and seeking out people it was vulnerable to. After all Mind Control for example isn't common so if you're vulnerable to Mind Control you aren't going to have to worry about it much unless you're going out and actively chasing down every villain you can with Mind Control powers.

> It may also depend on which power generation
> method you're using, if you're rolling randomly
> for powers. The Advanced Players book method will
> net you an average of 3 or 4 powers, where as if
> you're using the Ultimate Powers method, you'll
> start with an average of 6 or 7 powers. In the
> latter case, some might feel that the extra
> defensive power coverage would be worth spending
> the extra power slot (much more so, if they got an
> outrageously lucky roll and are beginning with 12
> or 14 powers).

Well if you're using the Advanced Players it's a non-issue since TI doesn't even exist in it, all you can get is what is basically BR. Plus again there isn't any point to taking a two-slot TI power for a few minor bonus items it covers when you're sticking them with straight damage reduction. You might as well take the Resistance to Energy Attack and Resistance to Physical attack powers for 2 slots and gain the benefit of the rules regarding Resistances where it's possible to completely ignore an attack on a successful attack which you can't do with TI. Sure your power ranks likely won't be equal but the option of being able to ignore an attack way over your power rank on a Red Feat is well worth it in that case.

> Since my players have a lot of latitude in picking
> powers, it's not really an issue. If I were going
> to apply a cost to my version of True
> Invulnerability, I would probably go ahead and
> cost it at 2 powers. My version protects against
> Mind Control and Magical attacks (where as the
> standard version does not), so I sort of feel it
> is useful enough to warrant spending the extra
> power, in that regard.

Are Mind Control and Magical attacks so prevalent in your games that it's really that game-impacting? Maybe if it was a magical campaign with lots of magic users I could see including magical protection in TI maybe making it worth 2 slots but not if again it's not particularly an issue. For which one might as well just take BR and Resistance to Magical Attacks separately for the chance to just outright ignore any magical attack no matter how well over their Power rank.

Quote

Well unless you've a common weakness (like needing to breathe) most villains probably shouldn't be able to exploit those vulnerabilities. Unless the character was intentionally going up against people it was generally weak against for some reason and seeking out people it was vulnerable to. After all Mind Control for example isn't common so if you're vulnerable to Mind Control you aren't going to have to worry about it much unless you're going out and actively chasing down every villain you can with Mind Control powers.

You may well be right, in a general sense, with regard to most peoples campaigns. In my game, I have a gestalt of Doctor Doom and Iron Man as my centerpiece antagonist. Doom has magical powers of Amazing intensity and the ability to swap minds with other people, as well as many powerful magical artifacts in his arsenal. I also have the following roster of recurring baddies, with which to bedevil my players:

Arnim Zola (Monstrous Mind Control)
Cerebro (Remarkable Mind Control)
Dormammu (Monstrous Magical abilities)
Kang (An arsenal of gadets, including Amazing rank Mind Control devices)
Modok (Incredible rank Mental Probes)
Mojo (Monstrous Mind Control)
Mr. Sinister (Mental block, etc. Unearthly rank)
Shadow Spider, a gestalt of Venom and Cloak (the Amazing rank Darkforce dimension control with it's endurance rank drain is pretty nasty. My version of TI functions against this).
Shuma-Gorath (Shift-Z magic abilities- although attack abilities are capped at Shift-Y)
Thanos (Amazing rank mind Blast)
An AU version of Hobgoblin (Remarkable Mind Control and Amazing Emotion Control)
Scarlet Wasp, a gestalt of Wasp and Scarlet Witch (Incredible rank magic)
Ultron (Incredible rank mind control)
HYDRA and AIM (Organizations with access to both magical artifacts and psionic devices)

So, as you can see, for my particular campaign, the answer is yes. Still, I think you make a good point for people who run games with more classic, city-wrecking, tank-type or blaster super villains.

Quote

Well if you're using the Advanced Players it's a non-issue since TI doesn't even exist in it, all you can get is what is basically BR.

You might be surprised on this one. I know some people that use the powers from the UPB and generate number of powers from APB, or vice-versa.

Quote

You might as well take the Resistance to Energy Attack and Resistance to Physical attack powers for 2 slots and gain the benefit of the rules regarding Resistances where it's possible to completely ignore an attack on a successful attack which you can't do with TI. Sure your power ranks likely won't be equal but the option of being able to ignore an attack way over your power rank on a Red Feat is well worth it in that case.

I actually find this to be a pretty compelling argument, especially if your hero has a lot of karma to burn to get that red feat. Of course, in my particular case, the TI is probably still preferred, given all my villains with psionics and magic.

Quote

Are Mind Control and Magical attacks so prevalent in your games that it's really that game-impacting? Maybe if it was a magical campaign with lots of magic users I could see including magical protection in TI maybe making it worth 2 slots but not if again it's not particularly an issue. For which one might as well just take BR and Resistance to Magical Attacks separately for the chance to just outright ignore any magical attack no matter how well over their Power rank.

Yes but, again, for a lot of campaigns that consist of mostly classic, 4-color, punch-your-face-in type of villains, I think you have a compelling argument for costing it out at a single power. If using a similar house rule, I would probably encourage Judges to make a list of the major villains and their powers that will be featured in their game, then decide how to cost it out from there.

I think another thing to think about is what exactly constitutes "Energy". Would energy protection via BR protect against Electricity or Fire? Sure, but not against Radiation, Cold, Disease or Toxins. I suppose you could make a case for BR protecting against Corrosives as well, but that still leaves four physical attack types that you have reduced or no protection against, depending on your Judge.

Making a version of TI that doesn't shift columns but still provides rank number defense against all of the above damage types still makes a pretty powerful power for those who don't want to include the UPB version of TI.

So in essence, you have two powers.

Body Resistance (One slot power) protects against: Kinetic attacks, Generic Energy blasts, Electricity, Fire and Heat and possibly Corrosives.

True Invulnerability (Two slot power) protects against: Kinetic attacks, Generic Energy blasts, Electricity, Fire and Heat, Corrosives, Radiation, Cold, Disease and Toxins.

Neither power protects against Mental attacks, Mind Control or Emotion attacks, and Magic attacks may be reduced or have full effect against someone with these powers, again depending on your Judge. Personally I would allow both powers to work at half rank number against pure Magical attacks.

Punstarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Making a version of TI that doesn't shift columns
> but still provides rank number defense against all
> of the above damage types still makes a pretty
> powerful power for those who don't want to include
> the UPB version of TI.
>
> So in essence, you have two powers.
>
> Body Resistance (One slot power) protects against:
> Kinetic attacks, Generic Energy blasts,
> Electricity, Fire and Heat and possibly
> Corrosives.
>
> True Invulnerability (Two slot power) protects
> against: Kinetic attacks, Generic Energy blasts,
> Electricity, Fire and Heat, Corrosives, Radiation,
> Cold, Disease and Toxins.

God I hate jumping into this topic for the one billionth time but I have never been comfortable the column shift aspect of TI. It is, essentially, a Superman power ham-fisted into the MSH game rules. I mean why else does it not stop magical attacks other than that's how it works for Superman. Its makes a character with any serious ranks of it ridiculously unstoppable. If you are running a cosmic powered campaign then sure but outside of that its always just seemed like too much to me. For most games I favor this method which is still worth two slots imo while keeping things reasonable when it comes to damage resolution.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Punstarr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Making a version of TI that doesn't shift
> columns
> > but still provides rank number defense against
> all
> > of the above damage types still makes a pretty
> > powerful power for those who don't want to
> include
> > the UPB version of TI.
> >
> > So in essence, you have two powers.
> >
> > Body Resistance (One slot power) protects
> against:
> > Kinetic attacks, Generic Energy blasts,
> > Electricity, Fire and Heat and possibly
> > Corrosives.
> >
> > True Invulnerability (Two slot power) protects
> > against: Kinetic attacks, Generic Energy
> blasts,
> > Electricity, Fire and Heat, Corrosives,
> Radiation,
> > Cold, Disease and Toxins.
>
> God I hate jumping into this topic for the one
> billionth time but I have never been comfortable
> the column shift aspect of TI. It is, essentially,
> a Superman power ham-fisted into the MSH game
> rules. I mean why else does it not stop magical
> attacks other than that's how it works for
> Superman. Its makes a character with any serious
> ranks of it ridiculously unstoppable. If you are
> running a cosmic powered campaign then sure but
> outside of that its always just seemed like too
> much to me. For most games I favor this method
> which is still worth two slots imo while keeping
> things reasonable when it comes to damage
> resolution.

No, it really isn't a Superman power hamfisted or otherwise into MSH, and no it not being able to block magical attacks has nothing to do with Superman anymore than you can claim tha BR is a Superman power because IT doesn't block magical attacks either. There's nothing cosmic-powered about it, certainly it takes way more than someone having TI to qualify as cosmic it just means that they're very durable. It's certainly not reasonable to make it into just BR while charging someone two-slots for it.

Remember, two-slot powers are SUPPOSED to be heavy duty compared to one-slot powers. Either they do one thing extremely well or a wide range of things very nicely. BR is one-slot because it's nice for protecting you but it's only giving rank number protection, TI is heavy duty protection because it's the super-deluxe protection that's hard-core protection hence CS damage reduction. It's just wrong to what amounts to tossing on a few minor edge case protections onto BR and calling it TI when it's not it's still just a one-slot worthy variant of BR that you might as well just call BR, replacing BR, and just admit it instead of trying to find excuses to say 'no really those extras so totally make it a 2-slot power now' when they don't.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, two-slot powers are SUPPOSED to be
> heavy duty compared to one-slot powers. Either they
> do one thing extremely well or a wide range of things
> very nicely.

You've made this point a number of times. Its not that people don't understand the idea, its that they think that even for a two-slot power it is still overpowered. Some people do, some people don't. Repeating that again isn't going to make anyone suddenly change their mind. Personally, if a power ONLY offered protection against blunt, edged, shooting, and energy attacks using the column shift reduction method, my opinion is that it would be overpowered for a two-slot power. But then, I think the way many powers are written in the UPB are overpowered. That's just my opinion of it.

FASERIPPER Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You may well be right, in a general sense, with
> regard to most peoples campaigns. In my game, I
> have a gestalt of Doctor Doom and Iron Man as my
> centerpiece antagonist. Doom has magical powers
> of Amazing intensity and the ability to swap minds
> with other people, as well as many powerful
> magical artifacts in his arsenal. I also have the
> following roster of recurring baddies, with which
> to bedevil my players:
>
> Arnim Zola (Monstrous Mind Control)
> Cerebro (Remarkable Mind Control)
> Dormammu (Monstrous Magical abilities)
> Kang (An arsenal of gadets, including Amazing rank
> Mind Control devices)
> Modok (Incredible rank Mental Probes)
> Mojo (Monstrous Mind Control)
> Mr. Sinister (Mental block, etc. Unearthly rank)
> Shadow Spider, a gestalt of Venom and Cloak (the
> Amazing rank Darkforce dimension control with it's
> endurance rank drain is pretty nasty. My version
> of TI functions against this).
> Shuma-Gorath (Shift-Z magic abilities- although
> attack abilities are capped at Shift-Y)
> Thanos (Amazing rank mind Blast)
> An AU version of Hobgoblin (Remarkable Mind
> Control and Amazing Emotion Control)
> Scarlet Wasp, a gestalt of Wasp and Scarlet Witch
> (Incredible rank magic)
> Ultron (Incredible rank mind control)
> HYDRA and AIM (Organizations with access to both
> magical artifacts and psionic devices)
>
> So, as you can see, for my particular campaign,
> the answer is yes. Still, I think you make a good
> point for people who run games with more classic,
> city-wrecking, tank-type or blaster super
> villains.

I think it still makes more of a case for taking Resistance to Mental Attacks and/or Magic respectively given the ability to shrug off any level attack with luck (and karma) even at Feeble rank and BR otherwise. Particularly if you've an otherwise low Psyche.

> Well if you're using the Advanced Players it's a
> non-issue since TI doesn't even exist in it, all
> you can get is what is basically BR.
>
> You might be surprised on this one. I know some
> people that use the powers from the UPB and
> generate number of powers from APB, or
> vice-versa.

I actually almost included that as an 'unless' actually but ended up deciding to leave it off.

> You might as well take the Resistance to Energy
> Attack and Resistance to Physical attack powers
> for 2 slots and gain the benefit of the rules
> regarding Resistances where it's possible to
> completely ignore an attack on a successful attack
> which you can't do with TI. Sure your power ranks
> likely won't be equal but the option of being able
> to ignore an attack way over your power rank on a
> Red Feat is well worth it in that case.
>
> I actually find this to be a pretty compelling
> argument, especially if your hero has a lot of
> karma to burn to get that red feat. Of course, in
> my particular case, the TI is probably still
> preferred, given all my villains with psionics and
> magic.

Except the Resistances are better, given the chance to no-sell any attack. Going with BR, Resistance to Mental Attacks and Resistance to Magic for 3 slots total would be considerably more productive overall to the 2-slot version of TI you have since for one the Resistance to Mental Attacks has to be a rank and higher than Psyche, whereas the TI certainly doesn't have to be.

> Are Mind Control and Magical attacks so prevalent
> in your games that it's really that
> game-impacting? Maybe if it was a magical campaign
> with lots of magic users I could see including
> magical protection in TI maybe making it worth 2
> slots but not if again it's not particularly an
> issue. For which one might as well just take BR
> and Resistance to Magical Attacks separately for
> the chance to just outright ignore any magical
> attack no matter how well over their Power rank.
>
> Yes but, again, for a lot of campaigns that
> consist of mostly classic, 4-color,
> punch-your-face-in type of villains, I think you
> have a compelling argument for costing it out at a
> single power. If using a similar house rule, I
> would probably encourage Judges to make a list of
> the major villains and their powers that will be
> featured in their game, then decide how to cost it
> out from there.

Well from what I've seen CS damage reduction seems to terrify some, they simply lose it at the idea of someone with Excellent TI because now that Monstrous rank attack instead of dealing Amazing (55) damage to the target now only deals Good (10) damage to the target. Apparently everyone should go down in a few hits instead of having to work at it sometimes or find an alternative to just beating the health out of someone.

For which mind you the arguments almost always go with the edge case of someone with Monstrous or Unearthly TI (frankly it amazes me how all these people can either beat the odds to roll Monstrous or have GM that hand out Monstrous and Unearthly ranks like that) when Feeble or Poor rank is at least as likely, with Excellent to Remarkable the most common. Also the idea that 'well gee it'll take FOREVER to reduce his health if he's got Monstrous TI and I gotta break out my Unearthly attacks to get anywhere', as if they wouldn't have to do that with the guy with Monstrous BR who still would take a while to wear down at 25 health a pop and really just where are these people getting all these Unearthly+ attacks anyway?

Frankly there are way more actual problematic powers that require care and consideration than TI with its CS damage reduction, it just shouldn't be an issue.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently everyone should go down in
> a few hits instead of having to work at it
> sometimes or find an alternative to just
> beating the health out of someone.


Maybe its so much not about "everyone should go down in a few hits" as it is that no one with an Amazing rank power should be able to stand up to Shift-Z rank damage like its an only Excellent damage. Different people have different opinions on how much protection a power should offer. For me, body resistance is fine as a 1 slot power because I use the ultimate powers book as a supplement to character creation rather than in place of it, and I treat that power as offering power rank protection against two types of damage: physical and energy, like Body Armor of the Advanced Player's Book. Anything else a player wants would have to be taken individually with a separate resistance, or if they want more than that for fewer powers, they can take the true invulnerability power which offers power rank protection against everything but magic and mental attacks.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apparently everyone should go down in
> > a few hits instead of having to work at it
> > sometimes or find an alternative to just
> > beating the health out of someone.
>
>
> Maybe its so much not about "everyone should go
> down in a few hits" as it is that no one with an
> Amazing rank power should be able to stand up to
> Shift-Z rank damage like its an only Excellent
> damage.

This.

Think about this... Feeble TI is capable of mitigating 300 damage from a Shift Z attack.

Even Excellent TI can turn Shift Z to Amazing 50 damage. 450 damage completely ignored by a relatively low ranked power, double slot or not. That's insane. The more powerful the attack, the more damage it protects against. That's just weird.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apparently everyone should go down in
> > a few hits instead of having to work at it
> > sometimes or find an alternative to just
> > beating the health out of someone.
>
>
> Maybe its so much not about "everyone should go
> down in a few hits" as it is that no one with an
> Amazing rank power should be able to stand up to
> Shift-Z rank damage like its an only Excellent
> damage. Different people have different opinions
> on how much protection a power should offer. For
> me, body resistance is fine as a 1 slot power
> because I use the ultimate powers book as a
> supplement to character creation rather than in
> place of it, and I treat that power as offering
> power rank protection against two types of damage:
> physical and energy, like Body Armor of the
> Advanced Player's Book. Anything else a player
> wants would have to be taken individually with a
> separate resistance, or if they want more than
> that for fewer powers, they can take the true
> invulnerability power which offers power rank
> protection against everything but magic and mental
> attacks.

Right, and just how often are Shift-Z rank attacks tossed around in a game? Because I can't see any reason a GM would be doing that unless he wanted to kill characters with a 'game over man!' certain kill. However much it might affront your sensibilities since games don't generally have anything tossing out attacks over Unearthly (and if it does then the PC should certainly have the means to survive such instead of it being an instant-kill) said Amazing rank TI character shouldn't be seeing worse than Unearthly attacks just as the Amazing rank BR guy would, in keeping with the levels of attack we should normally see in a game. Because someone with Amazing TI is just as stoppable as someone with Amazing BR, because their other powers are what will really decide how easy they are to stop/contain. Diamond Lil at Unearthly rank BR isn't going to rip free of Spider-man's webbing for example because she's got nothing else going for her other than very mild (Remarkable rank) Strength. Hero or villain at that level of damage reduction either rank number or CS you're going to have to work smart to defeat him.

Wasn't this whole (TI -=VS=- BR) argument done before in a previous topic that was about 99999999 pages long .... and a lotta people got butt-hurt and jelly and someone gotta stomach ulcer, or something ???



And if I remember correctly, just about everyone who knows a little bit about this game just went back to the Original Rule Book.....

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right, and just how often are Shift-Z rank attacks
> tossed around in a game? Because I can't see any
> reason a GM would be doing that unless he wanted
> to kill characters with a 'game over man!' certain kill.

It doesn't matter how often it comes up in the game because its not necessarily about trying to kill player characters. Why is that your go to argument? Its not exactly easy to kill in Marvel anyhow as everyone gets an Endurance FEAT to see if they lose Endurance ranks and when reaching Shift-0 another to see if they die. The idea of killing players may have been a problem for games that you have been involved in, but try not to assume too much about anyone else's game.


> However much it might affront your sensibilities
> since games don't generally have anything tossing
> out attacks over Unearthly

You're making assumptions again. The game (and comics) has a wide variety of cosmic-powered characters who can offer more than the average threat. But let's limit it to just the mundane of Marvel Comics: The Hulk, when raging, can get up to Shift-Z strength. The Hulk is pretty common place in a standard Marvel game even without resorting to cosmicly powered stuff. Hercules and Thor can both deliver Shift-X damage with their weapons and are also both pretty common. Yes, these are heroes, but there are plenty of bad guys that can give these guys a hard time.


> (and if it does then the PC should certainly have
> the means to survive such instead of it being an
> instant-kill)

As I mentioned before, its called Endurance FEATs. There are no instant kills... at least, not in my game.


> said Amazing rank TI character shouldn't be seeing
> worse than Unearthly attacks just as the Amazing
> rank BR guy would, in keeping with the levels of
> attack we should normally see in a game.

Said Amazing rank TI character shouldn't be seeing worse than Unearthly attacks? Why is that? How do you know the character doesn't also have a Shift-X attack power? And even if he doesn't, I disagree with the idea based solely on the fact that T.I. as written is overpowered and requires tougher (more damaging) foes to offer a challenge to the T.I. character unless the judge makes a point of making every opponent the character faces magical or mental. But even without a parade of mental and magical foes, foes dealing Unearthly damage attacks will only hit the Amazing T.I. character for 4 points of damage. I'm sorry, but I simply disagree outright that a power being 2 slots makes up for that kind of damage reduction disparity.


> Because someone with Amazing TI is just as
> stoppable as someone with Amazing BR, because
> their other powers are what will really decide how
> easy they are to stop/contain. Diamond Lil at
> Unearthly rank BR isn't going to rip free of
> Spider-man's webbing for example because she's
> got nothing else going for her other than very
> mild (Remarkable rank) Strength. Hero or villain
> at that level of damage reduction either rank
> number or CS you're going to have to work smart to
> defeat him.

But that's all situational. Not all heroes or villains are Diamond Lil with very little else going for them but their toughness. Most, but admittedly not all, characters with a high level of durability also possess super strength or some kind of high damage power to match, meaning that a simple entrapment such as Spider-Man webbing up Diamond Lil isn't going to cut it.

Resistance to virtually all damage (excluding magic and mental) is by itself worth 2 power slots in my opinion. Its better than the single damage type resistance which can ignore all damage even above its power rank with a Red FEAT because those single resistances are very conditional... as in, if you're resistant to fire & heat, you ONLY get to sometimes ignore all damage and ONLY when its the right type, whereas resisting all damage types even at just power rank number subtracted from the attack is superior because its flexible. So when you boost how much damage can be resisted by instead making it column shift reductions instead, as far as I'm concerned, it should be worth 3 or even 4 power slots.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wasn't this whole (TI -=VS=- BR) argument done
> before in a previous topic that was about 99999999
> pages long .... and a lotta people got butt-hurt
> and jelly and someone gotta stomach ulcer, or
> something ???
>
>
>
> And if I remember correctly, just about everyone
> who knows a little bit about this game just went
> back to the Original Rule Book.....
>
>
>
> [1mut.com]
> y-Wolf-meme-collection-1mut.com-14.jpg

People often don't look back into the older threads, particularly any from a good 5+ pages ago, so when new people join they just start a new thread regarding their thought on something rather than find and read any old threads on things. Sometimes this means reviving contentious topics because that's just what happens with things that people find important, they revive them and then people join back in again expressing their views on things.

When a thread is filled with bile and bitterness and/or flaming type replies, it might be better to leave it lie and start a new discussion fresh. Its okay to have disagreements, but it doesn't have to get personal or crazy.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Right, and just how often are Shift-Z rank
> attacks
> > tossed around in a game? Because I can't see
> any
> > reason a GM would be doing that unless he
> wanted
> > to kill characters with a 'game over man!'
> certain kill.
>
> It doesn't matter how often it comes up in the
> game because its not necessarily about trying to
> kill player characters. Why is that your go to
> argument? Its not exactly easy to kill in Marvel
> anyhow as everyone gets an Endurance FEAT to see
> if they lose Endurance ranks and when reaching
> Shift-0 another to see if they die. The idea of
> killing players may have been a problem for games
> that you have been involved in, but try not to
> assume too much about anyone else's game.

What should one expect when people bring up Shift-Z level attacks but that they're intent on seriously injuring/killing a character? Or that they can't hurt it as bad as they'd like so want its defenses lower so it's easier to take out.

> > However much it might affront your
> sensibilities
> > since games don't generally have anything
> tossing
> > out attacks over Unearthly
>
> You're making assumptions again. The game (and
> comics) has a wide variety of cosmic-powered
> characters who can offer more than the average
> threat. But let's limit it to just the mundane of
> Marvel Comics: The Hulk, when raging, can get up
> to Shift-Z strength. The Hulk is pretty common
> place in a standard Marvel game even without
> resorting to cosmicly powered stuff. Hercules and
> Thor can both deliver Shift-X damage with their
> weapons and are also both pretty common. Yes,
> these are heroes, but there are plenty of bad guys
> that can give these guys a hard time.

Given what it takes to get the Hulk to Shift-Z that's not something that happens much and likely never should happen in a game, and yes Thor and Hercules can do that but given most of the commentary I've seen out of people over the years those are the kinds of characters they treat as 'munchkin/over-powered' and don't let into games and instead keep them around Spider-man/Luke Cage level. So if such heavy-hitting damage inflicters end up your opponents your survival is quite a bit better with TI than BR, and if your opponents have it it just shows how extra-creative you have to be to win, since heroes are often at a disadvantage and have to dig deep to win.

> > (and if it does then the PC should certainly
> have
> > the means to survive such instead of it being
> an
> > instant-kill)
>
> As I mentioned before, its called Endurance FEATs.
> There are no instant kills... at least, not in my
> game.

Instant-dying then, and in such a battle getting medical attention in time to stabilize you isn't assured. If memory serves you lose an Endurance rank each turn until you're stabilized or manage an Endurance feat each of those turns to not lose one that turn. So unless you've a very high starting Endurance and good rolls, lots or karma, or both you're dead in a few minutes without help.

> > said Amazing rank TI character shouldn't be
> seeing
> > worse than Unearthly attacks just as the
> Amazing
> > rank BR guy would, in keeping with the levels
> of
> > attack we should normally see in a game.
>
> Said Amazing rank TI character shouldn't be seeing
> worse than Unearthly attacks? Why is that? How
> do you know the character doesn't also have a
> Shift-X attack power? And even if he doesn't, I
> disagree with the idea based solely on the fact
> that T.I. as written is overpowered and requires
> tougher (more damaging) foes to offer a challenge
> to the T.I. character unless the judge makes a
> point of making every opponent the character faces
> magical or mental. But even without a parade of
> mental and magical foes, foes dealing Unearthly
> damage attacks will only hit the Amazing T.I.
> character for 4 points of damage. I'm sorry, but
> I simply disagree outright that a power being 2
> slots makes up for that kind of damage reduction
> disparity.

Except it's not a fact that TI as written is over-powered, that's your opinion nor does having TI in and of itself require a GM to create more damaging/destructive foes to challenge the character. What else they have determines what it take to challenge them, and whether Amazing TI or BR it's the rest of the package the GM would have to consider.

> > Because someone with Amazing TI is just as
> > stoppable as someone with Amazing BR, because
> > their other powers are what will really decide
> how
> > easy they are to stop/contain. Diamond Lil at
> > Unearthly rank BR isn't going to rip free of
> > Spider-man's webbing for example because she's
> > got nothing else going for her other than very
> > mild (Remarkable rank) Strength. Hero or
> villain
> > at that level of damage reduction either rank
> > number or CS you're going to have to work smart
> to
> > defeat him.
>
> But that's all situational. Not all heroes or
> villains are Diamond Lil with very little else
> going for them but their toughness. Most, but
> admittedly not all, characters with a high level
> of durability also possess super strength or some
> kind of high damage power to match, meaning that a
> simple entrapment such as Spider-Man webbing up
> Diamond Lil isn't going to cut it.

That's the point, what else they have determines how much of an actual challenge they are, the TI isn't going to significantly increase their challenge rating compared to BR because it's a passive power that's only good for protecting the target from damage so it's what else they have that decides things not their protection.

> Resistance to virtually all damage (excluding
> magic and mental) is by itself worth 2 power slots
> in my opinion. Its better than the single damage
> type resistance which can ignore all damage even
> above its power rank with a Red FEAT because those
> single resistances are very conditional... as in,
> if you're resistant to fire & heat, you ONLY get
> to sometimes ignore all damage and ONLY when its
> the right type, whereas resisting all damage types
> even at just power rank number subtracted from the
> attack is superior because its flexible. So when
> you boost how much damage can be resisted by
> instead making it column shift reductions instead,
> as far as I'm concerned, it should be worth 3 or
> even 4 power slots.

Which would be insanely over-costly for what you get, which isn't much of anything more than what you see with BR (and no all those edge cases do not rate of such importance that having them is worth an extra slot in cost), plus you might want to look at the UPB again, it doesn't have things like Resistance to Fire and Heat it has Resistance to Energy, with those sub-categories being selectable as limitations to increase the power rank by 1CS.

Really though, you've just got a blind spot where you think CS damage reduction is somehow far more than it is, else you'd see how it's within the range of what's suited to a 2-slot power when you consider other two-slot powers and the comparable one-slot power. It's definitely not deserving of being treated like someone wanted the Power Cosmic which it isn't even remotely deserving of being treated as being as costly as or more costly than.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wasn't this whole (TI -=VS=- BR) argument done
> before in a previous topic that was about 99999999
> pages long .... and a lotta people got butt-hurt
> and jelly and someone gotta stomach ulcer, or
> something ???
>
>
>
> And if I remember correctly, just about everyone
> who knows a little bit about this game just went
> back to the Original Rule Book.....

In the 14 or so years I have been coming to the various versions of this site its been done at least 2 dozen and it always ends up like this. Its the Batman vs Captain America of power discussions. It comes up over and over and when it does it never ever gets resolved.

And yes in the end most people end up either knocking it down in its ridiculous overpoweredness (just like Superman who its based off from) or taken out altogether.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What should one expect when people bring up
> Shift-Z level attacks but that they're intent on
> seriously injuring/killing a character? Or that
> they can't hurt it as bad as they'd like so want
> its defenses lower so it's easier to take out.

The reason people bring up Shift-Z level attacks is to make a point, that even the most powerful attacks which can still be column shifted down are trivialized by the overpoweredness that is True Invulnerability.


> Except it's not a fact that TI as written is
> over-powered, that's your opinion

Exactly. What part of "I disagree" made it seem like I implied my statements should be considered fact?


> nor does having TI in and of itself require a GM to
> create more damaging/destructive foes to challenge
> the character. What else they have determines what
> it take to challenge them, and whether Amazing TI or
> BR it's the rest of the package the GM would have
> to consider.

Call me crazy, but I think ALL of a character's powers should be taken into account when determining what constitutes a challenge. You shouldn't ignore the fact that T.I. is possessed and decide that challenge should ONLY be determined by the T.I. possessor's other powers.


> That's the point, what else they have determines
> how much of an actual challenge they are, the TI
> isn't going to significantly increase their
> challenge rating compared to BR because it's a
> passive power that's only good for protecting the
> target from damage so it's what else they have
> that decides things not their protection.

Except that one power is insanely more effective at protecting the target than the other.


> Really though, you've just got a blind spot where
> you think CS damage reduction is somehow far more
> than it is, else you'd see how it's within the
> range of what's suited to a 2-slot power when you
> consider other two-slot powers and the comparable
> one-slot power. It's definitely not deserving of
> being treated like someone wanted the Power Cosmic
> which it isn't even remotely deserving of being
> treated as being as costly as or more costly than.

OR... one could argue that you've got a blind spot for thinking the column shift reduction is somehow perfectly okay just because that's how it was written. You can explain it however you like, but I have an opinion that differs from yours... and so do other people who don't like how the power is written. Are you wrong? Nope. Am I wrong? Just as "nope," because its just an opinion.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TankerAce Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wasn't this whole (TI -=VS=- BR) argument done
> > before in a previous topic that was about
> 99999999
> > pages long .... and a lotta people got
> butt-hurt
> > and jelly and someone gotta stomach ulcer, or
> > something ???
> >
> >
> >
> > And if I remember correctly, just about
> everyone
> > who knows a little bit about this game just
> went
> > back to the Original Rule Book.....
>
> In the 14 or so years I have been coming to the
> various versions of this site its been done at
> least 2 dozen and it always ends up like this. Its
> the Batman vs Captain America of power
> discussions. It comes up over and over and when it
> does it never ever gets resolved.
>
> And yes in the end most people end up either
> knocking it down in its ridiculous overpoweredness
> (just like Superman who its based off from) or
> taken out altogether.

No, it's based off of the game having two basic mechanics in that area, a mechanic for straight number from number and a mechanic for shifting things up and down on columns. It isn't ridiculously over-powered and hardly based on Superman but to generally represent characters that seem able to take enormous amounts of damage with little damage from it (which is common all over the place in science fiction, heck the entire DBZ universe you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't have CS damage reduction when you can toss a rock at Goku and cut his head yet hit him with a mountain-destroying punch and he doesn't get much more damage than a bruise).

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What should one expect when people bring up
> > Shift-Z level attacks but that they're intent
> on
> > seriously injuring/killing a character? Or
> that
> > they can't hurt it as bad as they'd like so
> want
> > its defenses lower so it's easier to take out.
>
> The reason people bring up Shift-Z level attacks
> is to make a point, that even the most powerful
> attacks which can still be column shifted down are
> trivialized by the overpoweredness that is True
> Invulnerability.

No, they can't, nor are those attacks being trivialized the character is displaying his astounding resilience as reflected in the 'no one could survive that!' trope where someone takes a massive attack that should kill them and yet while injured they're still standing or pull themselves from the rubble to keep fighting on.

> > Except it's not a fact that TI as written is
> > over-powered, that's your opinion
>
> Exactly. What part of "I disagree" made it seem
> like I implied my statements should be considered
> fact?

When you said 'it's a fact' you're doing more than implying.

> > nor does having TI in and of itself require a GM
> to
> > create more damaging/destructive foes to
> challenge
> > the character. What else they have determines
> what
> > it take to challenge them, and whether Amazing
> TI or
> > BR it's the rest of the package the GM would
> have
> > to consider.
>
> Call me crazy, but I think ALL of a character's
> powers should be taken into account when
> determining what constitutes a challenge. You
> shouldn't ignore the fact that T.I. is possessed
> and decide that challenge should ONLY be
> determined by the T.I. possessor's other powers.

Which isn't what I've said, but acting like somehow TI should be evaluated all by itself is hardly appropriate either. By itself the 'it's over-powered!' claims are simply not credible because it isn't. It's the Elemental Conversion to BR's Elemental Creation, exceptional in its domain because it's the elite protection just as the Conversion power is elite compared to the Creation power.

> > That's the point, what else they have
> determines
> > how much of an actual challenge they are, the
> TI
> > isn't going to significantly increase their
> > challenge rating compared to BR because it's a
> > passive power that's only good for protecting
> the
> > target from damage so it's what else they have
> > that decides things not their protection.
>
> Except that one power is insanely more effective
> at protecting the target than the other.
>
>
> > Really though, you've just got a blind spot
> where
> > you think CS damage reduction is somehow far
> more
> > than it is, else you'd see how it's within the
> > range of what's suited to a 2-slot power when
> you
> > consider other two-slot powers and the
> comparable
> > one-slot power. It's definitely not deserving
> of
> > being treated like someone wanted the Power
> Cosmic
> > which it isn't even remotely deserving of being
> > treated as being as costly as or more costly
> than.
>
> OR... one could argue that you've got a blind spot
> for thinking the column shift reduction is somehow
> perfectly okay just because that's how it was
> written. You can explain it however you like, but
> I have an opinion that differs from yours... and
> so do other people who don't like how the power is
> written. Are you wrong? Nope. Am I wrong? Just
> as "nope," because its just an opinion.

One could try that, they'd be wrong but they could certainly try it.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One could try that, they'd be wrong but they could
> certainly try it.

Okay, buddy. You win; your statements are always true and fact-filled nuggets, and everyone else who disagrees with you is nothing but wrong opinions. Case closed.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It isn't ridiculously over-powered and hardly based on
> Superman but to generally represent characters
> that seem able to take enormous amounts of damage
> with little damage from it (which is common all
> over the place in science fiction, heck the entire
> DBZ universe you'd be hard pressed to find anyone
> who doesn't have CS damage reduction when you can
> toss a rock at Goku and cut his head yet hit him
> with a mountain-destroying punch and he doesn't
> get much more damage than a bruise).

Yes and other than Superman you have to go DBZ to come up with characters this applies to even tho DBZ has nothing to do with the Marvel Universe. Besides the Superman knock offs in the Marvel U (Hyperion, Gladiator, etc) who does this power apply to, Juggernaut? He's about the only one this side of the cosmic entities and godlings that just seems to shrug off 99% of damage. So all these arguments and threads and everything said and done about them for on one or two characters in all of the Marvel U?

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One could try that, they'd be wrong but they
> could
> > certainly try it.
>
> Okay, buddy. You win; your statements are always
> true and fact-filled nuggets, and everyone else
> who disagrees with you is nothing but wrong
> opinions. Case closed.

Really should have included your post I was responding to, since I don't have a blind spot and I'm not defending TI because that's how it was written but because quite reasonable and logical and there are plenty of cases of characters displaying CS damage reduction in comics and movies (seriously, there's no way characters like the Flash ram things at superspeed without being reduced to past without some degree of damage reduction). Whatever issues you've got with representing these kinds of characters in a game they aren't mine, nor do I base things on stuff that you aren't ever going to see in a game and if you did would simply provide even more justification for its availability not less.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It isn't ridiculously over-powered and hardly
> based on
> > Superman but to generally represent characters
> > that seem able to take enormous amounts of
> damage
> > with little damage from it (which is common all
> > over the place in science fiction, heck the
> entire
> > DBZ universe you'd be hard pressed to find
> anyone
> > who doesn't have CS damage reduction when you
> can
> > toss a rock at Goku and cut his head yet hit
> him
> > with a mountain-destroying punch and he doesn't
> > get much more damage than a bruise).
>
> Yes and other than Superman you have to go DBZ to
> come up with characters this applies to even tho
> DBZ has nothing to do with the Marvel Universe.
> Besides the Superman knock offs in the Marvel U
> (Hyperion, Gladiator, etc) who does this power
> apply to, Juggernaut? He's about the only one this
> side of the cosmic entities and godlings that just
> seems to shrug off 99% of damage. So all these
> arguments and threads and everything said and done
> about them for on one or two characters in all of
> the Marvel U?

High ranks in the power for them but do keep in mind that there ARE other ranks thank Amazing, Monstrous, and Unearthly. Apocalypse happens to have Good rank TI, and as I've repeatedly pointed out it helps to accurately represent characters who manage to take damage from being hit by a baseball bat or car but somehow still manages to keep it together and survive when a building falls on him or he's hit by something that should have apparently killed him. If you don't care to represent such characters in your game that's fine but the power itself isn't unseen nor is it over-powering or game-changing/breaking to have.

There comes a time, when a discussion between people with two different opinions, ceases to be purposeful, intelligent debate, and simply becomes an exercise in attempting to verbally bludgeon the other person into accepting your point of view. This rarely has the desired effect.

Just something to consider, gentlemen.

Pax

FASERIPPER Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> an exercise in attempting to verbally bludgeon the
> other person into accepting your point of view.

But that's Nightmask's specialty! Don't you know he's always right and everyone else is always wrong (unless they agree with him of course)?