Punstarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FASERIPPER Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > an exercise in attempting to verbally bludgeon
> the
> > other person into accepting your point of view.
>
>
> But that's Nightmask's specialty! Don't you know
> he's always right and everyone else is always
> wrong (unless they agree with him of course)?

Didn't you rage quit here years ago because you couldn't handle being disagreed with when you kept insisting something just had to be munchkin and no one could have a good time playing any way you didn't approve of? Oh right, had to come back to troll me hoping no one would remember or know about that. How's it feel with me being so important to you, when I haven't bothered reading your posts in years and only wasted time today because of your predictable trolling and not wishing any new members to go uninformed about your issues and previous and ongoing history of trolling me?

In any case do go and once again insist how I'm the one who has to always be right while you insist that you could possibly be right (which I haven't), that the only possible 'right' way to play is how you think they should play, how it should be 'obvious' how your belief that TI is over-powered is the correct one, and how obviously 'wrong' it is that anyone should want to play it as written and must not be playing the game right because you don't think anyone should find CS damage reduction acceptable.

True Invulnerability was used in some of the TSR character supplements for a few characters. Some of us who did not own or did not want to use the Ultimate powers book had already just made it protection against damage a the TI power rank.

And even then we had to make allowances to other forms of damage like sonic and mental attacks because the comic book characters the power ( which was new to us ) was listed under still were vulnerable to certain non force type damage or magic. I will try to find the few characters they give this to in the TSR accessory.

This is just addressing a game of only " canon " marvel characters.

For those of you who rolled up characters with this power good luck.

For me personally , once I read the CS version of TI ( which I guess is the real version ) I knew it was too powerful to use as written with or without using the UPB for character creation. 2 slots or not. At least for the game we ran.

Never much cared for the UPB that much when I did finally get it. Used it for reference with the later TSR accessories mostly.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't you rage quit here years ago because you
> couldn't handle being disagreed with when you kept
> insisting something just had to be munchkin and no
> one could have a good time playing any way you
> didn't approve of? Oh right, had to come back to
> troll me hoping no one would remember or know
> about that. How's it feel with me being so
> important to you, when I haven't bothered reading
> your posts in years and only wasted time today
> because of your predictable trolling and not
> wishing any new members to go uninformed about
> your issues and previous and ongoing history of
> trolling me?
>
> In any case do go and once again insist how I'm
> the one who has to always be right while you
> insist that you could possibly be right (which I
> haven't), that the only possible 'right' way to
> play is how you think they should play, how it
> should be 'obvious' how your belief that TI is
> over-powered is the correct one, and how obviously
> 'wrong' it is that anyone should want to play it
> as written and must not be playing the game right
> because you don't think anyone should find CS
> damage reduction acceptable.

Quote
Nightmask talking about the former version of these boards
Although having seen the incredible flames and trolling that used to go on back then we haven't even come close in recent years (thank God).

Now lets all hold hands and sing the Spider-Man theme song.

G.A.W. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never much cared for the UPB that much when I did
> finally get it. Used it for reference with the
> later TSR accessories mostly.

I love the book as a reference and a jumping off point but I've never liked how some of the powers don't fit into the rest of the game mechanics-wise. The billionth version of this thread is evidence.

I quit before because of you, Nightmask... just like Capo. Your holier-than-thou condescending attitude, your passive aggressive remarks and your complete unwillingness to even consider a point of view that's contrary to what the great Nightmask "knows" is fact. I came back because I saw some interesting discussions that I wanted to weigh in on with my opinions.

I can only take solace in that pretty much every veteran member here knows your M.O. and knows that you're absolutely full of it.

If I see you talking out your backside and pulling the same old passive-aggressive, manipulative crap that you've always pulled, then yes... I am going to call you out on it.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Warlock Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > God I hate jumping into this topic for the one
> > billionth time but I have never been comfortable
> > the column shift aspect of TI. It is, essentially,
> > a Superman power ham-fisted into the MSH game
> > rules. I mean why else does it not stop magical
> > attacks other than that's how it works for
> > Superman. Its makes a character with any serious
> > ranks of it ridiculously unstoppable. If you are
> > running a cosmic powered campaign then sure but
> > outside of that its always just seemed like too
> > much to me. For most games I favor this method
> > which is still worth two slots imo while keeping
> > things reasonable when it comes to damage
> > resolution.
>
> No, it really isn't a Superman power hamfisted or
> otherwise into MSH, and no it not being able to
> block magical attacks has nothing to do with
> Superman anymore than you can claim tha BR is a
> Superman power because IT doesn't block magical
> attacks either. There's nothing cosmic-powered
> about it, certainly it takes way more than someone
> having TI to qualify as cosmic it just means that
> they're very durable. It's certainly not reasonable
> to make it into just BR while charging someone
> two-slots for it.

Actually, the book was built on the premise of the Legion of Superheroes, of which Superboy was a member, so saying it has nothing to do with Superman isn't exactly accurate.

Quote

25) The Ultimate Powers Book came about because one of our editor's boyfriends was in the office, making a list of every superpower he could think of. One of the managers found out about this and thought it was a great idea, and that was how the UPB came about. That sort of thing happened more often than you would think.

Karen was my WIFE.
I was working at home. She brought in my idea when management was in yet another panic because they had no product to fill the mandated Marvel slot for a particular month. At the time TSR had a financial recovery plan with their bank that required them to produce X number of games on y schedule or their loans were in danger.

The UPB started as a Legion of Superheroes proposal, by the way.

[www.classicmarvelforever.com]


Concerning Matter Creation, David said the following, showing that game balance was not exactly a high priority to him with the Ultimate Powers Book:

Quote

You can blame my then-wife and supposed editor Karen for that. As I recall, she said I needed to rein in those powers for the sake of some presumed game balance.

[www.classicmarvelforever.com]

Sorry for the delay on the response, took a little time to find the relevant quotes.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't you rage quit here years ago because you
> > couldn't handle being disagreed with when you
> kept
> > insisting something just had to be munchkin and
> no
> > one could have a good time playing any way you
> > didn't approve of? Oh right, had to come back
> to
> > troll me hoping no one would remember or know
> > about that. How's it feel with me being so
> > important to you, when I haven't bothered
> reading
> > your posts in years and only wasted time today
> > because of your predictable trolling and not
> > wishing any new members to go uninformed about
> > your issues and previous and ongoing history of
> > trolling me?
> >
> > In any case do go and once again insist how I'm
> > the one who has to always be right while you
> > insist that you could possibly be right (which
> I
> > haven't), that the only possible 'right' way to
> > play is how you think they should play, how it
> > should be 'obvious' how your belief that TI is
> > over-powered is the correct one, and how
> obviously
> > 'wrong' it is that anyone should want to play
> it
> > as written and must not be playing the game
> right
> > because you don't think anyone should find CS
> > damage reduction acceptable.
>
>
> Although having seen the incredible flames and
> trolling that used to go on back then we haven't
> even come close in recent years (thank God).
>
>
> Now lets all hold hands and sing the Spider-Man
> theme song.

Well it would certainly be nice if punstarr didn't insist on coming around trying to make things as bad as they were back then again.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Warlock Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > God I hate jumping into this topic for the
> one
> > > billionth time but I have never been
> comfortable
> > > the column shift aspect of TI. It is,
> essentially,
> > > a Superman power ham-fisted into the MSH game
> > > rules. I mean why else does it not stop
> magical
> > > attacks other than that's how it works for
> > > Superman. Its makes a character with any
> serious
> > > ranks of it ridiculously unstoppable. If you
> are
> > > running a cosmic powered campaign then sure
> but
> > > outside of that its always just seemed like
> too
> > > much to me. For most games I favor this
> method
> > > which is still worth two slots imo while
> keeping
> > > things reasonable when it comes to damage
> > > resolution.
> >
> > No, it really isn't a Superman power hamfisted
> or
> > otherwise into MSH, and no it not being able to
> > block magical attacks has nothing to do with
> > Superman anymore than you can claim tha BR is a
> > Superman power because IT doesn't block magical
> > attacks either. There's nothing cosmic-powered
> > about it, certainly it takes way more than
> someone
> > having TI to qualify as cosmic it just means
> that
> > they're very durable. It's certainly not
> reasonable
> > to make it into just BR while charging someone
> > two-slots for it.
>
> Actually, the book was built on the premise of the
> Legion of Superheroes, of which Superboy was a
> member, so saying it has nothing to do with
> Superman isn't exactly accurate.
>
> 25) The Ultimate Powers Book came about because
> one of our editor's boyfriends was in the office,
> making a list of every superpower he could think
> of. One of the managers found out about this and
> thought it was a great idea, and that was how the
> UPB came about. That sort of thing happened more
> often than you would think.
>
> Karen was my WIFE.
> I was working at home. She brought in my idea when
> management was in yet another panic because they
> had no product to fill the mandated Marvel slot
> for a particular month. At the time TSR had a
> financial recovery plan with their bank that
> required them to produce X number of games on y
> schedule or their loans were in danger.
>
> The UPB started as a Legion of Superheroes
> proposal, by the way.
> [www.classicmarvelforever.com]
> p?3,45138,45147#msg-45147
>
>
> Concerning Matter Creation, David said the
> following, showing that game balance was not
> exactly a high priority to him with the Ultimate
> Powers Book:
> You can blame my then-wife and supposed editor
> Karen for that. As I recall, she said I needed to
> rein in those powers for the sake of some presumed
> game balance.
> [www.classicmarvelforever.com]
> p?3,13162,13196#msg-13196
>
> Sorry for the delay on the response, took a little
> time to find the relevant quotes.

Yes I do remember all of that, with David retooling his work for the MSH (which is why he has some mechanics issues because he was too rushed to really familiarize himself with the rules) but it still doesn't make it some hamfisted effort to put a Superman power into the game (seriously, since when does Superman hold patent on any power?), but a logical extrapolation based on the rules and what's clearly in the books and how to properly represent a particular type of highly durable or resilient character that straight damage reduction won't and can't represent.

The average character created simply by rolling if they had the power would be around Excellent to Remarkable rank, so still able to be hurt by the average villain (since Incredible to Monstrous is what you generally see for them) but shrug it off like the BR character can't. He's still vulnerable to nearly everything the guy with BR is like suffocation and restraint and can still be stopped, although one might have to look for alternatives to just beating him down if he's got an effective offensive attack that you can't afford to let him spend that much time using. BUT that's to be expected, not all fights are or should be easy, with a group dog-piling someone and knocking them down to unconsciousness in a turn or two sometimes they do take quite a while to win. Sure not everyone likes having to do that kind of long fight (unless they're into games like Battletech) but they do happen often in the comics, even if they don't feel like they took hours due to the compression of events (like Spider-man taking down Rhino with a sudden barrage of blows when he loses it being represented by little more than a panel or two with a caption saying that's what's going on). But CS damage reduction in the end is a valid representation of certain types of characters that end up being unrepresented without it being available.

You know, really, I get it. Some of you even when you've never seen the power in a game and have never played it think it's just somehow automatically too powerful based on what sounds like little more than 'well it's CS, that just seems too powerful'. I don't, and probably others who didn't want to get flamed by saying so as well. But jumping my ass and trying to make it out that I'm being unreasonable or trying to say my way must be right when I haven't is just wrong and doing exactly what you accuse me of, insisting you're right and trying to force that on me.

You don't like the idea of using it in a game, that's fine. I really don't care, but don't go telling me how I'm telling everyone how only my way is right while hypocritically insisting that it's so obvious that YOU'RE right and how wrong I am for disagreeing.

In any case I'm going to do my best to ignore this thread now rather than waste more time giving those who want to flame my posts something to flame.

Anyone of the old soldiers here knows I Ike a good raucous rules argument as much as the next control freak, but I like TI as written, column shifts and all. If that puts me on Team Nightmask for the moment, so be it.

Wish I could find my post on TI from whenever ago.... I'd just paste it here LOL

Its fine to like it, but disagreeing with those who don't to the point of implying that those who want to nerf it must be looking to kill characters seems a bit much, as is insisting that the way its written is the only way it should be played or otherwise dismissing the opinions of those saying they don't like it as written.

Well, I've never had a problem killing characters with high column shift TI before.... They're all just a personality transfer away from being not really invulnerable.

I give Nightmask a Shift-0 Psyche rank for trying to not post anywhere at all around here.

Again, see my first posts in this thread.

TAG

I think the worms are long gone from the can, sir. However, its not nearly the mess it could have been.

I kinda like TI as writen. It's fun to see a judge pause to think about how exactly you just one turn KO'd his AM ranked TI villian without doing a single point point of damage. (Molecular Creation - large dose of tranquilizers directly into the blood stream)

NO
NO
NO
NO
NO





It must be MY WAY because NO OTHER WAY factually exist!!!!!!!




BURN IT WITH FIRE!!!!!

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Warlock Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nightmask Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Didn't you rage quit here years ago because
> you
> > > couldn't handle being disagreed with when you
> > kept
> > > insisting something just had to be munchkin
> and
> > no
> > > one could have a good time playing any way
> you
> > > didn't approve of? Oh right, had to come
> back
> > to
> > > troll me hoping no one would remember or know
> > > about that. How's it feel with me being so
> > > important to you, when I haven't bothered
> > reading
> > > your posts in years and only wasted time
> today
> > > because of your predictable trolling and not
> > > wishing any new members to go uninformed
> about
> > > your issues and previous and ongoing history
> of
> > > trolling me?
> > >
> > > In any case do go and once again insist how
> I'm
> > > the one who has to always be right while you
> > > insist that you could possibly be right
> (which
> > I
> > > haven't), that the only possible 'right' way
> to
> > > play is how you think they should play, how
> it
> > > should be 'obvious' how your belief that TI
> is
> > > over-powered is the correct one, and how
> > obviously
> > > 'wrong' it is that anyone should want to play
> > it
> > > as written and must not be playing the game
> > right
> > > because you don't think anyone should find CS
> > > damage reduction acceptable.
> >
> >
> > Although having seen the incredible flames and
> > trolling that used to go on back then we
> haven't
> > even come close in recent years (thank God).
> >
> >
> > Now lets all hold hands and sing the Spider-Man
> > theme song.
>
> Well it would certainly be nice if punstarr didn't
> insist on coming around trying to make things as
> bad as they were back then again.

I am so sorry for bringing up the question of True Invulnerability. Had I known it would lead to such argument and discord between people, I gladly would have kept my mouth shut.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, really, I get it. Some of you even when
> you've never seen the power in a game and have
> never played it think it's just somehow
> automatically too powerful based on what sounds
> like little more than 'well it's CS, that just
> seems too powerful'.

So now anyone who disagrees with you is just a noob that has never REALLY played the game so we can't possibly know what we are talking about? Seriously, can you even argue a point without talking down to people?

Heart of the Tiger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so sorry for bringing up the question of True
> Invulnerability. Had I known it would lead to such
> argument and discord between people, I gladly
> would have kept my mouth shut.

There is no way to know until you've been thru one of these topics. Some things simply cannot be discussed without it devolving into nonsense like this. Its why I really, really didn't want to jump in but, because I am an idiot, I did anyway.

None of this is your fault, it just is what it is and until you know there is no way to know. You know?

Basically, both forms are available. Use the one that you want.

Done.

TAG

Quote
Heart of the Tiger
I am so sorry for bringing up the question of True Invulnerability. Had I known it would lead to such argument and discord between people, I gladly would have kept my mouth shut.

I had to step away from the site for a little while after reading this thread. When a question is asked by someone, it is always my intent to give the best possible answer. That is what this site is all about, I believe their are some among us that have forgotten that, and it deeply saddens me.

I original came up with my version of the house rule for True Invulnerability, because I thought that the description for the power in the Ultimate Powers Book actually better described Unstable Molecules; which is not mentioned in the UPB.

I also had a really tough time with Doomsday's Shift-Z (500) strength punching Superman with Unearthly True Invulnerability and only doing Typical (6) damage, it just did not work for me.

So that lead me to create my version of the Ultimate Power Book v2.5 with the following added and redefined:
[www.classicmarvelforever.com]

P9/Molecular Instability: The hero’s body is
made up of unstable molecules making him
immune to physical harm, up to his power rank.
The immunity includes the following resistances:
fire, heat, cold, electricity, radiation, corrosives,
disease, poison, brute force, sonics, and kinetic
bolts. The rank of the Molecular Instability
reduces the rank of the attack (by column rank
shifts).
Example: Dr. Doom’s Excellent laser would do
only Feeble Damage against Good Molecular
Instability.
The hero with this Power is still Vulnerable to
magical and mental attacks. The hero’s
Appearance is not affected by this power; He
appears to be a normal member of his race.
Optional Powers include Shapeshifting,
Regeneration, and Immortality.


P15/True Invulnerability: This is a
combination of Resistances and Body
Armor. The hero is immune to any
physical harm, up to his rank's limit.
The immunity includes the following
resistances: fire, heat, cold, electricity,
radiation, corrosives, disease, poison,
brute force, sonics, and kinetic bolts. The
rank of the Invulnerability reduces the
rank of the attack form.
Example: A Mandroid's Excellent laser
would do only Good damage against
Good Invulnerability, and none at all
against Excellent Invulnerability.
The hero with this Power is still
vulnerable to magical and mental
attacks. If the hero should lose his True
Invulnerability, his Fighting rank drops to
Typical (he's not used to avoiding blows).
The hero's appearance is not affected
by this power; he appears to be a normal
member of his race.

I was simply trying to improve the game for others and myself; I also would like to note that I admire David E. Martin very much and all his works for the MSHRPG....thank you Mr. Martin!

Now I would like to add that the power P9/Molecular Instability in my opinion clearly explains the Fantastic Four's unstable molecules uniforms, Venom's symbiote, and the powers of the mutant Apocalypse.

To get back on point with this topic there are many things that I disagree with that I see posted in the forum, but I do not add comments like "opening a can of worms" to discourage someone's question and I would hope as being part of the best MSHRPG site on the web, that we as a Forum Community can do better.








The Cutter

On a side note, I have never liked the limitation that comes with True Invulnerability that lowers fighting rank to Typical if the power is removed/negated for any reason.

• First off, if the hero has Typical Fighting to begin with, then its not a limitation.
• Secondly, if you have Amazing Fighting that means you're not just good at avoiding attacks but also landing them, and suddenly you suck at both.
• Third, he not only loses his protection but also loses some Health as one of the four ranks determining Health is reduced, perhaps significantly.

Personally, I'd prefer (and allow in my games) a choice of limitations, including removing one of the protected damage types from the list as a vulnerability, reduced protection from some attacks (-1CS for three, and -2CS for three others), choosing a weakness which negates the power (like kryptonite, but should be something relatively common), or all defensive actions based on Fighting or Agility are rolled on the Typical column (rather than actually lower an ability score or take away the character's offensive skill as well). I'm also open to suggestions for limitations from players who want the power, so these aren't the only options.

The_Skycutter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also had a really tough time with Doomsday's
> Shift-Z (500) strength punching Superman with
> Unearthly True Invulnerability and only doing
> Typical (6) damage, it just did not work for me.

Well, considering the fact that they were smacking each other for an extended period of time, I personally find this rather fitting.

I still don't know... maybe I will solve it this way: True Invulnerability acts as a shift, but only every second rank shifts damage down. You also get Body Resistance equal to the power rank against everything that TI protects you from and only BR or TI count against an attack, so if you had RM TI and would be hit with an SHZ attack, you would take UN dmg, because TI is better in this case. If you were hit with a RM attack, you would use BR, because it would be more effective than TI in this case.

Just rely on your players to use their powers in a fair and balanced way.

If no, instead of killing their character, make them GM. Put them through it.


and we don't argue with everyone on here, all the time. Some people like to see themselves type.


NOW, I think Batman would beat Captain America in a fist fight. Discuss.

Tigerfaced God Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NOW, I think Batman would beat Captain America in
> a fist fight. Discuss.


At least you didn't inflame one of those Thor vs Superman threads.

You Tigers... stirring up trouble.