Karma rulings:

1. Villains can never spend Karma for any reason.

2. Heroes can never spend Karma on Endurance FEATs v. Slam or Kill results or when checking to see if they are dying when Health is reduced to 0 from an attack mode that can get a Kill result (v. edged, shooting). However, they may spend Karma to resist being stunned.

3. The Karma cost for attack and defense FEATs is at least doubled, however, hardass Game Judges may triple Karma costs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2014 04:41AM by SecretDefender.

What if a What If story didn't kill anyone?

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
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> What if a What If story didn't kill anyone?

Mind = blown.

Warlock Wrote:
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> Dead Sidekick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What if a What If story didn't kill anyone?
>
> Mind = blown.

Some do actually have happy endings, the 'What if Spider-Man's Clone had lived?' ends with them as friends and partners and agreeing to share things to make life better for each other.

Not seeing why you think you need mods like that, or any mods at all for that matter. The game already is more lethal than the comics and there is no option for someone to go 'hey that didn't happen my character's still alive!' when something otherwise lethal happens to it.

Nightmask Wrote:
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> Not seeing why you think you need mods like that,
> or any mods at all for that matter. The game
> already is more lethal than the comics and there
> is no option for someone to go 'hey that didn't
> happen my character's still alive!' when something
> otherwise lethal happens to it.

Because no matter how deadly the game may be (and in all the years I played the game I never had one of my characters die) this would make it MORE deadly, thought that was kinda obvious. And hows about anyone can add any mods they want anytime they want for any reason they want, I thought that was kinda obvious as well.

Nightmask Wrote:
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> Not seeing why you think you need mods like that,
> or any mods at all for that matter. The game
> already is more lethal than the comics and there
> is no option for someone to go 'hey that didn't
> happen my character's still alive!' when something
> otherwise lethal happens to it.


That's funny, I'm always trying to explain that the game makes it kind of hard to die unless you choose to embrace the death (like not keeping some Karma on hand for Endurance FEATs). Why do you think its so lethal?

A high post count is indicative of little more than one having the time to post frequently.
It does not mean a person is more knowledgeable on any given topic than anyone else.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not seeing why you think you need mods like
> that,
> > or any mods at all for that matter. The game
> > already is more lethal than the comics and
> there
> > is no option for someone to go 'hey that didn't
> > happen my character's still alive!' when
> something
> > otherwise lethal happens to it.
>
> Because no matter how deadly the game may be (and
> in all the years I played the game I never had one
> of my characters die) this would make it MORE
> deadly, thought that was kinda obvious. And hows
> about anyone can add any mods they want anytime
> they want for any reason they want, I thought that
> was kinda obvious as well.

Yes, and people are certainly free to ask what your reasoning was for a particular mod which ought to be kind of obvious as well. What ifs are so deadly because the plot armor is removed and events are tragically spiraling out of control in many of them due to that critical difference between universe A's choice compared to universe B's choice.

The only reason what-ifs are more lethal is because there is no plot armor protecting the characters and unless the GM is giving plot armor to the characters in his game (which he may be doing) a game is already running under more lethal rules than what we see in the comics. So I don't see the point of a mod that makes things even more lethal but hey if your group likes having things set up to make death far more likely it's all good.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 01:43AM by Thrudjelmer.

I don't see how those house-rules are necessary for a "What if"-game either. (Unless your premise is "What if Marvel heroes were ever subjected to realistic levels of lethality, The Last Action Hero-style?")

If you absolutely need to kill a character to set the premise, he simply gets killed by GM fiat as part of the introduction of the "What if"-scenario. After that sets the frame, the game goes on as usual.

Its all a matter of perspective.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 01:42AM by Thrudjelmer.

Alot of games my group plays are set in what if type worlds. Play by what rules/custom rules that you and the other players find enjoyable Myself I don't know if any major rule changes are needed just for a what if world . How lethal a game is really depends on the judge and players. It can be easy to die if the judge is playing the NPC with lethal intent.Its easy to kill for that matter if the players really want to. A player playing Thor probably wouldnt hit a mind controled Aunt May full force with his hammer. Even in game terms that dosnt end well for Aunt May. Instead the player would probably just subdue her in a non damaging manner.
A good example of a what if from a marvel zombie comic. Sandman attacks spiderman by going inside his mouth and nose and expands from his insides blowing him up. In a game a GM probably wouldnt use sandman in such a way, but if they did then in game terms it would probably be just as lethal id say if he got inside it would be power rank damage per turn until you figured out how to get him out. Then how ever you wanted to role play the kind of internal damage that would be done. Any character can be lethal if you play them that way. The Hulk could be facing 3 players, he manages stun 2. Most judges would probably have the Hulk go after the 3rd player who is not stunned. If you wanted to go lethal you could just say the Hulk gets angry for some reason gets his strenght bonus and starts hitting the stunned players while the 3rd player looks on helpless because he cant do anything that hurts the hulk.

How lethal a game is comes down to how lethal the GM and players run their characters (a flipside version of that showed up in the Heroes Unlimited forum with someone insisting the game was too lethal and you couldn't use it to play classic four-color comic heroes without heavy modification) and to a lesser degree how plentiful karma is. The more lethal what-ifs in game terms can be seen as either decisions being made to go with more lethal options or because the heroes simply didn't have the karma to make that critical decision automatically successful so in the main continuity we see them having been lucky in that regard (and at least some what-ifs it was the LESS lethal route in the main continuity that was the better route) but the what-if they failed the roll (like Death's Head II killing Reed in the alternate continuity because the roll to see if the original Death's Head AI could take control over the killer robot and as a result Reed simply ran out his karma trying to survive).




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 01:39AM by Thrudjelmer.

I think different issues of What If? in the past have shown differing levels of lethality. Generalizing the whole of What If? with special rules to make surviving harder may not be needed, but think about it as choosing to play a video game on challenge level... Its harder, and there may be some reward to surviving scenarios presented as being more lethal than a standard game.

If a GM and players decide to go this route, then the rule ideas presented by SecretDefender are one way to go. Personally, I would offer some kind of bonus when running a game like that. Assuming that the What If? world in question is a one-shot adventure good for a night or two of game play, I might tell players that any (or at least a portion of the) Karma they have left over at the end of the game can be forwarded on to the next character they play in the next game. Higher risk, in my opinion, should yield higher reward.

Mind you, I don't and probably won't ever use those rules in my game. If someone else in my group proposed it, I wouldn't be adverse to it under certain conditions. Of course, I look at all gaming that my group does as one big, perpetual What If? since we don't adhere to the comics stories with our own adventures. What's the "What If?" I've been asked. "That's easy," I'd say, "What if your characters were part of the Marvel Universe? And the games we have tell the story of it, of how things go differently."

But ultimately, to each their own. "I don't see a need for it," is --to me-- an incomplete sentence. It should read, "I don't see a need for it in my game." What other people need and what you or me or anyone else need is not necessarily going to end up being the same. Some need more challenge, and making death more probable by changing how Karma can be spent is one way to provide that challenge. Its not wrong, it may be that its just wrong for some people.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
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> I think different issues of What If? in the past
> have shown differing levels of lethality.
> Generalizing the whole of What If? with special
> rules to make surviving harder may not be needed,
> but think about it as choosing to play a video
> game on challenge level... Its harder, and there
> may be some reward to surviving scenarios
> presented as being more lethal than a standard
> game.

Most of the especially grim and angsty what-ifs have been from the last 15 years, as they stopped showing almost completely what-ifs where things went better (the rarity of the second what-if dealing with the Ghost Rider/Spider-Man/Hulk/Wolverine FF making it quite the stand-out). They also managed downer ending versions when people actually survived rather than died in the main series (Spider-Man leaping to save Gwen Stacy left not just her alive but Osborne, who ended up with a change of heart but forgot to recover the information on Spider-man's secret ID to JJJ resulting in JJJ showing up with the police at Spider-man's wedding to Gwen insisting on his arrest so while people who'd died didn't it still went poorly).

> If a GM and players decide to go this route, then
> the rule ideas presented by SecretDefender are one
> way to go. Personally, I would offer some kind of
> bonus when running a game like that. Assuming
> that the What If? world in question is a one-shot
> adventure good for a night or two of game play, I
> might tell players that any (or at least a portion
> of the) Karma they have left over at the end of
> the game can be forwarded on to the next character
> they play in the next game. Higher risk, in my
> opinion, should yield higher reward.
>
> Mind you, I don't and probably won't ever use
> those rules in my game. If someone else in my
> group proposed it, I wouldn't be adverse to it
> under certain conditions. Of course, I look at
> all gaming that my group does as one big,
> perpetual What If? since we don't adhere to the
> comics stories with our own adventures. What's
> the "What If?" I've been asked. "That's easy,"
> I'd say, "What if your characters were part of the
> Marvel Universe? And the games we have tell the
> story of it, of how things go differently."

That's really how all games operate, they don't have the plot armor and protections for the central characters (i.e. the PC) that exist in the comics and can die if things go bad enough.

> But ultimately, to each their own. "I don't see a
> need for it," is --to me-- an incomplete sentence.
> It should read, "I don't see a need for it in my
> game." What other people need and what you or me
> or anyone else need is not necessarily going to
> end up being the same. Some need more challenge,
> and making death more probable by changing how
> Karma can be spent is one way to provide that
> challenge. Its not wrong, it may be that its just
> wrong for some people.

No it's fine as it is, if you don't see a need for something you don't see a need for it. There's nothing wrong with going 'I don't see why you think you need that', maybe they try it without it and it works or maybe they try it and it doesn't or they just shrug and go 'well we just do' and continue on. Not like anyone should have issues with that since there are a variety of different options for just about everything and you aren't going to go along without running across people who see it differently.

Nightmask Wrote:
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> There's nothing wrong with going 'I don't see why
> you think you need that', maybe they try it without
> it and it works or maybe they try it and it doesn't
> or they just shrug and go 'well we just do' and
> continue on. Not like anyone should have issues
> with that since there are a variety of different
> options for just about everything and you aren't
> going to go along without running across people
> who see it differently.

You're right, there's nothing wrong with saying you think you don't need any particular rules. So, for example, if someone posted in the New Powers for your game thread everytime after you added new power ideas that they don't think there's a need for new powers, that the Advanced Player's Book and Ultimate Powers Book is more than enough to satisfy everyone, and your ideas shouldn't be tried... they're unnecessary, and like this or any other thread that deviates from the rules as written shouldn't even be posted. Why discuss it since even only one person thinks it might not be needed?

Or, in other words, just because you don't think its needed doesn't necessarily mean that other people don't. And rather than discourage people from posting their ideas, maybe just explain what it is about the idea that doesn't work for you and why. Speak from personal experience rather than the presumption that your opinion should reflect everyone's experience, and it won't come off like an attack or just an overall downer on other people's ideas. And if that's what you're trying to do, then --as I said earlier-- maybe you should try to be more aware of your wording since most people tend to view your opinions as an attempt at superiority like you know best about everything and only your opinion should matter... like because you present a bunch of facts in your posting, that even your opinions are factual.

You made some good points in explaining how plot armor is taken away in the stories and definitely should contribute to the discussions, but started leaning toward this is the way, and the only way, that things should be. And if its not in agreement your way, why should anyone else bother even posting if its not going to agree with Nightmask's sensibilities?




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2014 01:45PM by Thrudjelmer.

Karma/hero points/fate points/drama points must exist in cinematic and super hero universe games based upon Marvel and DC. Try running a campaign where karma is only banked as experience points for advancement. If you do be prepared for two things : 1- high. Mortality rate & 2-boring game

SecretDefender Wrote:
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> Karma/hero points/fate points/drama points must
> exist in cinematic and super hero universe games
> based upon Marvel and DC. Try running a campaign
> where karma is only banked as experience points
> for advancement. If you do be prepared for two
> things : 1- high. Mortality rate & 2-boring game

I have to agree with this.

The last session of MSH I ran I had two heroes go up agains a villain that was a gestalt of Iron man and Doctor Doom. They were victorious, but both heroes burned up all but 5 or 10 points to achieve victory, and still probably would have lost, if not for several yellow and red FEAT results they achieved at the climax. Without the karma being spent, they absolutely would have been crushed.