Tigerfaced God Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People are missing the incredible potential for
> humor with this: He continually thwarts evil and
> saves the day, continually advances freedom and
> justice, he is a shining beacon for millions and a
> role model for the human race.... and he is the
> worst Hydra agent EVER.
>
> "I must help Zemo, before it's to late. My shield!
> NO! It accidentally struck him and now he has
> fallen in to that boiling vat of Adhesive X. This
> is almost as bad as the time I accidentally
> punched out the Fuhrer...and the Red Skull...and
> the Hate Monger, who was actually still Hitler (I
> didn't get the note), and the Red Skull at least
> 30 more times. These swine think I am the best
> fighter in the world... but I am the worst. Even
> the Cosmic Cube cannot erase my remorse. The
> shame."
>
>
>
>
> And they said no Skrulls, time travel or alternate
> timelines. So how are they getting out of this
> one?

Oh, I imagine the same way 'no magical retcons' ever happened to restore Spider-man's secret ID.

Everybody knows East Indian Transgender Thor will save him.









I would definitely buy a copy of that.

Tigerfaced God Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everybody knows East Indian Transgender Thor will
> save him.
>
>
> I would definitely buy a copy of that.


Yeah, that would be a valuable comic... the one that destroys Marvel.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tigerfaced God Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Everybody knows East Indian Transgender Thor
> will
> > save him.
> >
> >
> > I would definitely buy a copy of that.
>
>
> Yeah, that would be a valuable comic... the one
> that destroys Marvel.

If 'Captain America was a Nazi all along' doesn't destroy Marvel I can't begin to fathom what depths they'd have to go to to actually destroy Marvel and frankly don't want to think about what worse things they'll come up with since they've been making money hand over fist selling reprints of that issue.

Until they finish the storyline and correct everything with the cosmic cube after realizing it made mistakes. Then the comic will be forgotten.

TAG

Nightmask Wrote:

they've been
> making money hand over fist selling reprints of
> that issue.

"Reprints" in 2016 aren't quite the same as reprints in 1980. Today's Disney 'Marvel' imprint brand print comics are the least popular and least produced in number of all time. Thus through typical manipulations common to the storyboard factories underprinting and changes in how to allow orders can easily create the false impression of popularity. In terms of genuine cultural impact and popularity, and genuine worldwide sales, these strange evolutionary dead-ends are nowhere and nothing. Fan fiction at best.

And so the news is out... Captain America was brainwashed into thinking he was a Hydra double agent all along. Red Skull did it in the library with a Cosmic Cube.

And this is a fantastically shocking reveal, one which we never could have guessed because of the masterful storytelling and, of course, the blatant lying about how this really was Steve Rogers and not some alternate reality double or brainwashed or whatever. No tricks, for reals!! Until one month later when they're all Dark Helmet-like & saying, "FOOLED YOU!!" Because altering someone's mind with a Cosmic Cube is still brainwashing; just because it's not the conventional form of brainwashing we know in the real world doesn't mean it's okay to lie about it.

Also...


ThatArtGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's Cap's "Clone Saga" moment. It's easily
> explained away with Red Skull having a cosmic
> cube.
>
> Done.
>
> TAG


DING DING DING!! WINNER!! DING DING DING!!

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And so the news is out... Captain America was
> brainwashed into thinking he was a Hydra double
> agent all along. Red Skull did it in the library
> with a Cosmic Cube.
>
> And this is a fantastically shocking reveal, one
> which we never could have guessed because of the
> masterful storytelling and, of course, the blatant
> lying about how this really was Steve Rogers and
> not some alternate reality double or brainwashed
> or whatever. No tricks, for reals!! Until one
> month later when they're all Dark Helmet-like &
> saying, "FOOLED YOU!!" Because altering someone's
> mind with a Cosmic Cube is still brainwashing;
> just because it's not the conventional form of
> brainwashing we know in the real world doesn't
> mean it's okay to lie about it.

Just like the 'no magical retcons to restore Spider-man's Secret ID', only for one to quickly occur. Now if only we could get a reveal that Spider-man never sold out his principles, OMD never happened, and he's still happily married (because 'well if you want to see that go to the MU2 setting that we totally promise will always be around, trust us we'd never lie to you' doesn't qualify).

Flying Tiger Comics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
>
> they've been
> > making money hand over fist selling reprints of
> > that issue.
>
> "Reprints" in 2016 aren't quite the same as
> reprints in 1980. Today's Disney 'Marvel' imprint
> brand print comics are the least popular and least
> produced in number of all time. Thus through
> typical manipulations common to the storyboard
> factories underprinting and changes in how to
> allow orders can easily create the false
> impression of popularity. In terms of genuine
> cultural impact and popularity, and genuine
> worldwide sales, these strange evolutionary
> dead-ends are nowhere and nothing. Fan fiction at
> best.

I don’t think they actually care about actual comics sales anymore, with the movie income dwarfing everything. Controversial virtue-signalling that creates buzz in the MSM and in social media that could translate into more movie tickets and DVDs is economically much more important than selling the actual product to actual fans.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And so the news is out... Captain America was
> brainwashed into thinking he was a Hydra double
> agent all along. Red Skull did it in the library
> with a Cosmic Cube.


Stay tuned, true believers! In next month's exciting issue of Captain America: Steve Rogers (sadly not redundant) we learn that Steve Rogers was brainwashed into thinking he was Captain America who was brainwashed by the Red Skull. Now we finally learn Steve's true history - during the war, he was just a racist, abusive guard at a Japanese internment camp, a symbol of enduring American shame and cowardice.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also...
>
>
> ThatArtGuy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's Cap's "Clone Saga" moment. It's easily
> > explained away with Red Skull having a cosmic
> > cube.
> >
> > Done.
> >
> > TAG
>
>
> DING DING DING!!
> WINNER!! DING DING
> DING!!


It's so hard being right all the time.

Right, Skycutter?

TAG

Oh, you...

HUGE SPOILER ALERT. I'M GIVING EVERYTHING IN ISSUE #2 AWAY, which doesn't matter because none of you will read it anyway.


Making up your mind without reading a comic is going to make you miss out on the best storyline this year. This could go anywhere. Cannot recommend this enough. Marvel isn't dying from this. Artwork is much better in #2 also.

I still called it.

TAG

Tigerfaced God Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Making up your mind without reading a comic is
> going to make you miss out on the best storyline
> this year. This could go anywhere. Cannot
> recommend this enough. Marvel isn't dying from
> this. Artwork is much better in #2 also.


If the storyline is as you describe in the spoiler, then I don't think it's brilliant at all and I think it's a lame story with no positive outcome possible. I feel wholly justified in making up my mind without reading it first, and I'm gladly missing out on it. I've no interest in Marvel wiping their backside with their characters as a way to make them more interesting. No thanks.

Here's how I see it ending:

Yeah... it can go anywhere. Not interested.

For me, it's comparable to if DC had done this to Batman by altering his history so that he thinks differently now:

That wouldn't make him more interesting, it would just be there to provoke a response. And it's kind of a jerk way to go about it.

Nick Spencer is a hack.

Tigerfaced God Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HUGE SPOILER ALERT. I'M GIVING EVERYTHING IN ISSUE
> #2 AWAY, which doesn't matter because none of you
> will read it anyway.

I've never read Captain American because his character doesn't interest me.

Captain America is an awesome character when written correctly. However, when he's not...

... we end up with Cap-Wolf.

TAG

ThatArtGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Captain America is an awesome character when
> written correctly. However, when he's not...
>
> ... we end up with Cap-Wolf.

And paralyzed but armored up Cap.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ThatArtGuy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Captain America is an awesome character when
> > written correctly. However, when he's not...
> >
> > ... we end up with Cap-Wolf.
>
> And paralyzed but armored up Cap.

Cap-Wolf wasn't like an entire long-running storyarc though, he was infected and transformed back in short order. It really wasn't anymore a derailment or bad bit of writing than when Spider-man was briefly Spider-Hulk or Spider-Lizard, unlike the 'I need power armor to move now' Cap or the bad writing of the 'Oh no Cap's a killer be afraid of him!' storyarc after he was forced to use a gun to kill a terrorist spraying an auditorium full of people with gunfire. It had people acting like Cap was the Punisher routinely gunning down people for the most minor of things which was bizarre in the extreme given he stopped a killer to save dozens if not hundreds of lives and people should have been going 'well it was the only choice he had better he shoot the guy than let him keep killing people' and praising him for doing everything he could to save lives since the life of the killer was of no value (except maybe to Mephisto or Satannish).

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the storyline is as you describe in the
> spoiler, then I don't think it's brilliant at all
> and I think it's a lame story with no positive
> outcome possible. I feel wholly justified in
> making up my mind without reading it first, and
> I'm gladly missing out on it. I've no interest in
> Marvel wiping their backside with their characters
> as a way to make them more interesting. No
> thanks.

Who needs a cover when you can simply judge a book for not being written 20 years ago. Everything was awesome back in the days of yore and now everything is bad, all the time, no matter what.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thrudjelmer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If the storyline is as you describe in the
> > spoiler, then I don't think it's brilliant at
> all
> > and I think it's a lame story with no positive
> > outcome possible. I feel wholly
> justified in
> > making up my mind without reading it
> first, and
> > I'm gladly missing out on it. I've no interest
> in
> > Marvel wiping their backside with their
> characters
> > as a way to make them more interesting. No
> > thanks.
>
> Who needs a cover when you can simply judge a
> book for not being written 20 years ago.
> Everything was awesome back in the days of yore
> and now everything is bad, all the time, no matter
> what.

He's judging the synopsis which is perfectly valid. If you don't like a particular theme or idea you don't like it and you don't have to read it to go 'well like I said before reading it I don't like this kind of stuff'. If you can't stand zombie stuff and a story contains zombies you don't have to read it to to 'I'm totally not interested in the story it's got zombies in it' and be totally okay in doing so.

I have no problem with differing opinions on whats good and whats bad but it seems that quite often on this board a lot of the themes and plots behind comics nowadays get a quick dismissal under this all encompassing idea that nothing new can possibly be good, along with a healthy dose of anything pro minority is an obvious attack on white male masculinity.

I will be the first to say that anything that's made new for no other reason than new = good is going to probably be pretty damn bad. I also believe there are times when white men are shit on for no other reason than its an easy target, not unlike putting down women and other minorities were decades ago, and if it wasn't right then its not right now.

But those situations are few and far between, and more often than not when I see those types of comments I roll my eyes because the person making them has to do such mental contortions to "connect the dots" they tie themselves into knots Alexander couldn't cut.

Just because something does happen doesn't mean it is always happening.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it seems that quite often on this board a lot of the
> themes and plots behind comics nowadays get a
> quick dismissal under this all encompassing idea
> that nothing new can possibly be good,

I don't agree with that. I think we just focus on the bad stuff that turns up and don't talk about the new because there's less and less good to talk about. I, for one, liked the direction of the new Hercules comic with a new pantheon of modern gods rising up to sweep away the old, and Herc being the champion of the old even as he fights the new using newer, modern methods while worrying about his past behavior and how his legacy is as tarnished as it is grand. Nothing wrong in concept or execution. And so I turn my attention to the stuff I don't like, recognizing patterns of behavior for shaping many of the new changes and dismissing them for what they are and all of the problems I have with them.


As far as the diversity thing goes, it is happening. It isn't that people have a problem with increasing diversity in comics, it's that the publishers are dismissing --sometimes even ruining-- old favorite characters just to make room for the new diversity changes. And that's the issue. Make more characters to accommodate diversity... if they're popular, then it proves that's what people want and then let sales of old and new books determine who stays and who goes. But ripping old favorites apart to pander to "the broader audience" doesn't appeal to everyone, meaning it's not as broad as the claim would imply. And the reason they do this is because A) why create something new and wait for it to be popular when they can just slap a popular brand name on a new product and claim this is what everyone wants because "SALES!!" and B.) the controversy created by their shakeup will generate media attention which = free advertising for a short term sales boost. It's cheap, and it's a crappy way to treat older fans, and while it may not be specifically "Get rid of these useless white/male characters," it shows a clear lack of concern for anyone who is white and/or male who like those characters.

ThatArtGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Until they finish the storyline and correct
> everything with the cosmic cube after realizing it
> made mistakes. Then the comic will be forgotten.
>
> TAG

The fans won't forget. This is Captain America we are talking about here.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It isn't that people have a problem
> with increasing diversity in comics, it's that the
> publishers are dismissing --sometimes even
> ruining-- old favorite characters just to make
> room for the new diversity changes. And that's
> the issue. Make more characters to accommodate
> diversity... if they're popular, then it proves
> that's what people want and then let sales of old
> and new books determine who stays and who goes.
> But ripping old favorites apart to pander to "the
> broader audience" doesn't appeal to everyone,
> meaning it's not as broad as the claim would
> imply. And the reason they do this is because A)
> why create something new and wait for it to be
> popular when they can just slap a popular brand
> name on a new product and claim this is what
> everyone wants because "SALES!!" and
> B.)
> the controversy created by their shakeup will
> generate media attention which = free advertising
> for a short term sales boost. It's cheap, and
> it's a crappy way to treat older fans, and while
> it may not be specifically "Get rid of these
> useless white/male characters," it shows a clear
> lack of concern for anyone who is white and/or
> male who like those characters.

They are no more ripping apart Iron Man or Captain America now than they were when Rhodes and Bucky took over, or than DC did when Wally West became Flash or Kyle Rainer became Lantern. So if they are going thru anther pass the mantle for ratings before passing it back phase, where is the harm in making her a young black woman is all I am saying. If you wanna say the whole pass the torch only to take it back thing is shitty that's opinion and can't really be argued other than to state reasons for or against it, but whats it matter who they pass it too?

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thrudjelmer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It isn't that people have a problem
> > with increasing diversity in comics, it's that
> the
> > publishers are dismissing --sometimes even
> > ruining-- old favorite characters just to make
> > room for the new diversity changes. And that's
> > the issue. Make more characters to accommodate
> > diversity... if they're popular, then it
> proves
> > that's what people want and then let sales of
> old
> > and new books determine who stays and who goes.
>
> > But ripping old favorites apart to pander to
> "the
> > broader audience" doesn't appeal to everyone,
> > meaning it's not as broad as the claim would
> > imply. And the reason they do this is because
> A)
> > why create something new and wait for it to be
> > popular when they can just slap a popular brand
> > name on a new product and claim this is what
> > everyone wants because "SALES!!" and
> > B.)
> > the controversy created by their shakeup will
> > generate media attention which = free
> advertising
> > for a short term sales boost. It's cheap, and
> > it's a crappy way to treat older fans, and
> while
> > it may not be specifically "Get rid of these
> > useless white/male characters," it shows a
> clear
> > lack of concern for anyone who is white and/or
> > male who like those characters.
>
> They are no more ripping apart Iron Man or Captain
> America now than they were when Rhodes and Bucky
> took over, or than DC did when Wally West became
> Flash or Kyle Rainer became Lantern. So if they
> are going thru anther pass the mantle for ratings
> before passing it back phase, where is the harm in
> making her a young black woman is all I am saying.
> If you wanna say the whole pass the torch only to
> take it back thing is shitty that's opinion and
> can't really be argued other than to state reasons
> for or against it, but whats it matter who they
> pass it too?

He's Iron MAN not Iron WOMAN, so you can't have an Iron MAN title with a woman in the armor (at a minimum she'd have to be explicitly pretending to be a man at all times to try) because Iron MAN is a MAN not a WOMAN. How is that so hard to grasp? Rhodey in the armor was a man and he left everyone to think that even if someone else was in the armor from who they were used to it was a man so he was still Iron MAN. It's not a gender neutral name for the character, just like She-Hulk is a woman hence the 'She' part.

Iron Man and Iron Woman? Really? What a travesty it says man but really its a woman, that's your argument? Thats the reasoning behind the constant vitriol against everything having to do with diversity in comics?

I have now just read the saddest thing I have read all day.