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How do you feel about Marvel pushing the X-Men aside?

	Good! More room for Inhumans.
	Bad! X-Men are way cooler.
	WTF, Marvel??
	Who cares? There's still other stuff to read.

---

So this link... [nerdist.com] ...talks about how the X-Men titles might be gone gone gone from Marvel's published comics. Thoughts?

I like the X-Men but it always felt like they inhabited a world totally separate from the one all the other heroes lived in. There was so much hate and bigotry...but only for Mutants. Its always been the powers that set heroes apart from everyone else so what does it matter to the average person how someone got their powers?

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like the X-Men but it always felt like they
> inhabited a world totally separate from the one
> all the other heroes lived in. There was so much
> hate and bigotry...but only for Mutants. Its
> always been the powers that set heroes apart from
> everyone else so what does it matter to the
> average person how someone got their powers?

Because unlike Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four either you're born a mutant or you aren't, so at some level they envy them because they often have powers that normal humans don't but know that they can't expect to have. Plus it's an extension of parents irrationally hating their kids for having some special gift or talent they don't especially if the parents wish they could have it only it's people irrationally hating members of the next generation for having what they don't and can't have. You can tell yourself 'I can be special too, I just need a cosmic ray event to do it' but you really can't tell yourself 'I can be special too, I can be born a mutant' because it's already too late if you aren't one now.

The average person isn't going to know how Super Joe got his powers when he swoops in to save the day and if it happens in the pages of Super Joe Monthly its all good. But have the same thing happen in the pages of an X-Men mag and the person will not want to be saved cause Joe's a mutant. Or a crowd will think its all Joe's fault and throw bottles at him, despite the fact he just saved someones life, cause ya know...plot and shit.

That the hate could, and certainly would, happen simply cause they are different is one thing, but the fact its applied so unevenly is what always bugged me.

Do people who have that level of hatred in them in today's world find out enough to know the difference between a Suuni and a Shiite? Or half the time even know the difference between a Muslim and a Hindu?

All I am saying is if there was that level of animosity for mutants then there would be a hell of a lot of crossover to any and all heroes regardless of their origin, and the fact that in the Marvel world the divide is so night and day makes it all a little less believable to me.

I don't see Marvel (Disney) getting rid of the X-Men .... (too much money to lose)


BUT



I do see Marvel (Disney) outsourcing and leasing the rights to the X-Men.

Sounds like Secret Wars really did destroy the Marvel Universe.

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
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> Sounds like Secret Wars really did destroy the
> Marvel Universe.


Yep. It's gone, and we're left with this cheap imitation in its place. And somewhere, a mouse laughs.

The X-Men were a wonderful way for Marvel to explore social commentary through the medium of superhero stories. It made Marvel exceptional and relevant and set them apart from DC in the 70s and 80s. However the X-Men books spun out of control in the late 90s up until today. I still dip into the X titles from time to time and they seems to be stuck in some kind of time loop. Still trying to tell the stories of those previous decades instead of innovating something new. For example there have recently been Brood and Phoenix stories. On top of that, it seems like they keep trying to turn their bad guys into good guys. Recently picking up one of the X-books has Magneto and Sabertooth on the same good guys team!!!!! It just makes me sad.

I still think there are great X-Stories yet to be told and look forward to when they get told. But from where I sit, it just feels bleak. Right now I am much more interested in the Avengers titles and deeply missing the FF.

J Bone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still think there are great X-Stories yet to be
> told and look forward to when they get told. But
> from where I sit, it just feels bleak. Right now I
> am much more interested in the Avengers titles and
> deeply missing the FF.

This. Times a thousand. Either the dystopian future promised in Days of Future Past would have happened or the fact that they are not alone in their ability to wield super powers would have blunted that hate considerably and they'd be much more widely accepted like all the other powered individuals.

Instead they are doing exactly what you pointed out and they keep going thru the same cycle and rehashing the same themes over and over.

The stories and artwork were great in the 80's. The writing gave the characters depth and realistic problems, and the stories were intriguing.

Then they got lost. Time travel kills everything, you never quite get away from it once you do it. Your over all plot line becomes convoluted. When you can say that about a comic book, you are in trouble.

In the 80's, when Wolverine, Night Crawler, Cyclops and Colossus were the coolest looking characters in Marvel, you went from stories about fighting Magneto and the Hellfire Club, through the Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix over-plot (that started great in 1980 and ended , well it still hasn't really ended).

Days of Future Past was incredible. It was so good, but it was a genie let out of a bottle and things that followed were not as good. You always have the specter of a horrible future looming or the terrible idea of an easy fix through time travel. Two issues of a comic from 1981 set up many bad things.

So two bad choices: Bring back Jean from the dead, so Cyclops can abandon his family and join X-Factor and the "re-do" button of the future, that sets up Cables and Bishops and consistent dread of what tomorrow might bring, makes mutants less fun. In six years you go from best ever to confused and diluted. Then Wolverine showed up everywhere and became boring (how do you make the coolest character ever boring? Over exposure).

There were certainly some good story arcs between the early 80's and now, but as a whole the Mutants drifted into their own world that became real dark and then got real dull.


Chris Claremont, John Byrne and Terry Austin created one of the best comic books Marvel published and books are only as good as the creative team.


Let them all go into a friendly future with fun space operas.

Changing race, gender, stories lines, eliminating the essence of what character was, and now perhaps phasing out one of their best group? WTF.

I've just about had it with Marvel. They have jumped so many sharks I hope that land in a cesspool.

Moving toward learning more about DC.

Taarna Wrote:
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> Changing race, gender, stories lines, eliminating
> the essence of what character was, and now perhaps
> phasing out one of their best group? WTF.
>
> I've just about had it with Marvel. They have
> jumped so many sharks I hope that land in a
> cesspool.
>
> Moving toward learning more about DC.

Same, except I don't care about DC either. Valiant is where it's at.

FTJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taarna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Changing race, gender, stories lines,
> eliminating
> > the essence of what character was, and now
> perhaps
> > phasing out one of their best group? WTF.
> >
> > I've just about had it with Marvel. They have
> > jumped so many sharks I hope that land in a
> > cesspool.
> >
> > Moving toward learning more about DC.
>
> Same, except I don't care about DC either. Valiant
> is where it's at.

Got that right and hopefully it'll stay there.

I agree with the sentiment that Days of Future past is the poison that killed the X-Men. Great story but so many writers have been biting off that story that if you try to figure out the X-Men mythology you need to have a brain the size of the Watcher. Plus its now infected the dang movies. The X-Men won't be right till they stop with the time jumping BS.

I think it would be an abomination to shove them aside. I feel like they always have been an important part of, not just the Marvel, but the comic universe.

They'll be back. They always come back. No one goes away or dies forever. New , young readers have the patience to wait it out. Older readers don't and complain but they probably don't buy the comics anyway.

Doesnt really matter anyway. Not just the big 2 , but the comic book company is used to low sales/ print runs now.

G.A.W. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They'll be back. They always come back. No one
> goes away or dies forever. New , young readers
> have the patience to wait it out. Older readers
> don't and complain but they probably don't buy the
> comics anyway.

Uh no younger readers have no patience at all, they're brought up expecting instant gratification and results it's the older generation that was brought up with patience but few people have infinite patience eventually they get tired and give up. I was patient for decades waiting for things to improve but eventually it just was not worth it.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The average person isn't going to know how Super
> Joe got his powers when he swoops in to save the
> day and if it happens in the pages of Super Joe
> Monthly its all good. But have the same thing
> happen in the pages of an X-Men mag and the person
> will not want to be saved cause Joe's a mutant. Or
> a crowd will think its all Joe's fault and throw
> bottles at him, despite the fact he just saved
> someones life, cause ya know...plot and shit.
>
> That the hate could, and certainly would, happen
> simply cause they are different is one thing, but
> the fact its applied so unevenly is what always
> bugged me.
>
> Do people who have that level of hatred in them in
> today's world find out enough to know the
> difference between a Suuni and a Shiite? Or half
> the time even know the difference between a Muslim
> and a Hindu?
>
> All I am saying is if there was that level of
> animosity for mutants then there would be a hell
> of a lot of crossover to any and all heroes
> regardless of their origin, and the fact that in
> the Marvel world the divide is so night and day
> makes it all a little less believable to me.


This, exactly! Hate groups don't care about nuances like how someone got to be the way they are. Look at racism in the US. People don't care where an Black person originated, just that they're Black. you're going to try and convince me that people hate Wolverine because he's a mutant but the don't feel the same about Spiderman or the Fantastic Four? That's like saying Hitler only hated Polish Jews and not American Jews.

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Warlock Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The average person isn't going to know how
> Super
> > Joe got his powers when he swoops in to save
> the
> > day and if it happens in the pages of Super Joe
> > Monthly its all good. But have the same thing
> > happen in the pages of an X-Men mag and the
> person
> > will not want to be saved cause Joe's a mutant.
> Or
> > a crowd will think its all Joe's fault and
> throw
> > bottles at him, despite the fact he just saved
> > someones life, cause ya know...plot and shit.
> >
> > That the hate could, and certainly would,
> happen
> > simply cause they are different is one thing,
> but
> > the fact its applied so unevenly is what always
> > bugged me.
> >
> > Do people who have that level of hatred in them
> in
> > today's world find out enough to know the
> > difference between a Suuni and a Shiite? Or
> half
> > the time even know the difference between a
> Muslim
> > and a Hindu?
> >
> > All I am saying is if there was that level of
> > animosity for mutants then there would be a
> hell
> > of a lot of crossover to any and all heroes
> > regardless of their origin, and the fact that
> in
> > the Marvel world the divide is so night and day
> > makes it all a little less believable to me.
>
>
> This, exactly! Hate groups don't care about
> nuances like how someone got to be the way they
> are. Look at racism in the US. People don't care
> where an Black person originated, just that
> they're Black. you're going to try and convince
> me that people hate Wolverine because he's a
> mutant but the don't feel the same about Spiderman
> or the Fantastic Four? That's like saying Hitler
> only hated Polish Jews and not American Jews.

I disagree a tad. Fear and mistrust, along with past history actions are reasons why some groups are hated. Race doesn't have to be part of the equation.

Mutants that are super power are feared, as not all of them are on the side of humanity. And many of them look very different than normal humans.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> barna10 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Warlock Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
> > This, exactly! Hate groups don't care about
> > nuances like how someone got to be the way they
> > are. Look at racism in the US. People don't
> care
> > where an Black person originated, just that
> > they're Black. you're going to try and
> convince
> > me that people hate Wolverine because he's a
> > mutant but the don't feel the same about
> Spiderman
> > or the Fantastic Four? That's like saying
> Hitler
> > only hated Polish Jews and not American Jews.
>
> I disagree a tad. Fear and mistrust, along with
> past history actions are reasons why some groups
> are hated. Race doesn't have to be part of the
> equation.
>
> Mutants that are super power are feared, as not
> all of them are on the side of humanity. And
> many of them look very different than normal
> humans.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with. Wolverine is hated for being a mutant and he looks normal while the Thing is loved and he is a walking rock. Also, there are more tech-based humans that are villains than there are mutant villains. The rational in Marvel for mutant hate doesn't hold water.

Lastly, Fear is the basis of hatred in All instances in the real world. It's not a rational fear, but irrational fear that causes the problem. Saying people would fear Mutants based on the origin of their powers is a rational argument to an irrational problem. Realistically the fear and hatred would be directed at ALL supers, not just Mutants.

Even if people only hated mutants and not all superhuman beings, would they really be so careful in their judgments? "We know the X-Men are mutants, so it's okay to hate them... but that Spider-Man guy keeps his identity a secret, so until I find out otherwise, I'll just assume he ISN'T a mutant."

And okay, sure, some characters' superhuman origins are common knowledge, but do people really believe it? Is the Hulk really a radioactive rage monster that only the military hates, or is he actually a mutant whose X-gene was dormant until he was exposed to gamma radiation? Sure, there are plenty of people who know the truth, but hate groups aren't really all that careful. And if they think they can use someone's bad reputation to prey on the ignorant masses, why wouldn't they exploit fear by association? Beast and Wolverine have both been X-Men, so the Avengers have mutants too. Maybe they're all mutants. Hawkeye has no powers? Prove it... show me his medical scans to prove he doesn't have the X-gene making him the world's greatest archer. Prove that Thor is the thousands of years old mythological figure of Scandinavian lore. Magic hammer or telekinesis returning it to his hand? Weather controlling thunder god or mutant with innate control of the weather? If Storm can do it, why wouldn't there be others?

So yes the hatred by association should be stronger, and there should be a lot more presumption by the masses that various heroes are mutants if mutants really are so feared and hated.

Final note: If mutants are feared for their differences as if that might give them some hidden agenda, then why aren't people more freaked out about alien heroes? I mean, that's as different as it gets. But Captain Mar-Vell? That dude ended up with a cult after he died.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if people only hated mutants and not all
> superhuman beings, would they really be so careful
> in their judgments? "We know the X-Men are
> mutants, so it's okay to hate them... but that
> Spider-Man guy keeps his identity a secret, so
> until I find out otherwise, I'll just assume he
> ISN'T a mutant."
>
> And okay, sure, some characters' superhuman
> origins are common knowledge, but do people really
> believe it? Is the Hulk really a radioactive rage
> monster that only the military hates, or is he
> actually a mutant whose X-gene was dormant until
> he was exposed to gamma radiation? Sure, there
> are plenty of people who know the truth, but hate
> groups aren't really all that careful. And if
> they think they can use someone's bad reputation
> to prey on the ignorant masses, why wouldn't they
> exploit fear by association? Beast and Wolverine
> have both been X-Men, so the Avengers have mutants
> too. Maybe they're all mutants. Hawkeye has no
> powers? Prove it... show me his medical scans to
> prove he doesn't have the X-gene making him the
> world's greatest archer. Prove that Thor is the
> thousands of years old mythological figure of
> Scandinavian lore. Magic hammer or telekinesis
> returning it to his hand? Weather controlling
> thunder god or mutant with innate control of the
> weather? If Storm can do it, why wouldn't there
> be others?
>
> So yes the hatred by association should be
> stronger, and there should be a lot more
> presumption by the masses that various heroes are
> mutants if mutants really are so feared and
> hated.
>
> Final note: If mutants are feared for their
> differences as if that might give them some hidden
> agenda, then why aren't people more freaked out
> about alien heroes? I mean, that's as different
> as it gets. But Captain Mar-Vell? That dude
> ended up with a cult after he died.

Mutants are humans with activated gene sequences emplaced in some strains of human DNA by alien Celestials millions of years ago to carry out a cosmic survival-of-the-fittest experiment with subjegation and extinction of the losers of this competition at its terminus. As such, normal humans instinctively know that mutants are compromised - infiltrators into our ranks and probably unwittingly under control of those cosmic alien meddlers. As such, their deceptive calls - "I have rights" and "Please stop hitting me with a hammer Mommy" ought to be resisted until we have enough giant killer robots to instead hunt THEM into extinction, giant killer robots being our ancestral memory of and tribute to the giant armored space gods in the first place. No mercy. Mutants must go.

Warlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I am saying is if there was that level of
> animosity for mutants then there would be a hell
> of a lot of crossover to any and all heroes
> regardless of their origin, and the fact that in
> the Marvel world the divide is so night and day
> makes it all a little less believable to me.


It's not just a sociological phenomena playing a part there's also a biological factor present from inception of life on planet Earth contributing to the animosity mutants face. Read the Sublime arcs to learn more.
[en.wikipedia.org])

Tagline Wrote:
> It's not just a sociological phenomena playing a
> part there's also a biological factor present from
> inception of life on planet Earth contributing to
> the animosity mutants face. Read the Sublime arcs
> to learn more.
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> cs)


...Isn't this more of the same? Sublime was simply the first Hitler trying to exterminate the Mutants instead of the Jews. This is no more of a "biological" component than racism normally is. Regardless, we're right back to the silliness of the whole mutant-hatred concept. Why did Sublime hate mutants? Why not just exterminate all of humanity and rule over the animals? If he exterminated ALL humanity, mutant problem solved.

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tagline Wrote:
> > It's not just a sociological phenomena playing
> a
> > part there's also a biological factor present
> from
> > inception of life on planet Earth contributing
> to
> > the animosity mutants face. Read the Sublime
> arcs
> > to learn more.
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> > cs)
>
>
> ...Isn't this more of the same? Sublime was
> simply the first Hitler trying to exterminate the
> Mutants instead of the Jews. This is no more of a
> "biological" component than racism normally is.
> Regardless, we're right back to the silliness of
> the whole mutant-hatred concept. Why did Sublime
> hate mutants? Why not just exterminate all of
> humanity and rule over the animals? If he
> exterminated ALL humanity, mutant problem solved.

You've obviously not read the article to which I linked, answers can be extrapolated from the information contained therein.

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tagline Wrote:
> > It's not just a sociological phenomena playing
> a
> > part there's also a biological factor present
> from
> > inception of life on planet Earth contributing
> to
> > the animosity mutants face. Read the Sublime
> arcs
> > to learn more.
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> > cs)
>
>
> ...Isn't this more of the same? Sublime was
> simply the first Hitler trying to exterminate the
> Mutants instead of the Jews. This is no more of a
> "biological" component than racism normally is.
> Regardless, we're right back to the silliness of
> the whole mutant-hatred concept. Why did Sublime
> hate mutants? Why not just exterminate all of
> humanity and rule over the animals? If he
> exterminated ALL humanity, mutant problem solved.

I have to agree that you probably should have read the article, as Sublime could infect non-powered humans just fine but mutants tended to be immune to its infection and control meaning their biological immunity to it made them a threat as if they become the dominant species that would bring about the end of Sublime without a host to live on through. So encourage anti-mutant hysteria and convince humanity to fight against evolution and keep humanity static for it to live on in indefinitely.

A bacterial colony infecting the primordial soup is interesting storytelling and not entirely implausible, however strictly speaking 'science fiction' explanations are not necessarily required for the more rational types of consideration. Example of which is science theory suggesting we are capable of the acquired hard wiring of certain reactions into ourselves over the course of evolution and for good reason. The majority of people have an aversion to spiders, it is thought this is a genetic disposition which was inherited from the time when we lived in caves and the majority of prevalent arachnid species carried virulent poisons only evidenced in certain species today.

I did read the article which is why I said it would've made more sense for it to wipe out all of humanity. Otherwise it always fave the risk of Mutants popping up.

And while it is an interesting idea that we acquired some sort of hardwired fear of spiders, it's hardly a scientific one; evolution is by happenstance not learning. You could argue a strain of humans happen to have a genetic mutation that caused them to be afraid of spiders and this was somehow advantageous. Then these humans bred and reproduced while others without the fear died off due to spider bites. This would be an actual way we could be "hardwired" against spiders, not by learning.

Regardless, nature arbors advantages not weakness. Species like to evolve. Members with more advantages survive and the other genetic lines die off. The less-advantageous genetic strains do not rise up against their more evolved cousins out of fear, aka a fear of Mutants. If this were the case, we'd all still be amoebas.

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I did read the article which is why I said it
> would've made more sense for it to wipe out all of
> humanity. Otherwise it always fave the risk of
> Mutants popping up.

Equally you could argue the imperative to evolve life beyond single celled organisms as to the reason why it didn't wipe out humanity and thereby restrict its own development, or rather the possibility for human life in respect to the time periods we're considering.

> And while it is an interesting idea that we
> acquired some sort of hardwired fear of spiders,
> it's hardly a scientific one; evolution is by
> happenstance not learning. You could argue
> a strain of humans happen to have a genetic
> mutation that caused them to be afraid of spiders
> and this was somehow advantageous. Then these
> humans bred and reproduced while others without
> the fear died off due to spider bites. This would
> be an actual way we could be "hardwired" against
> spiders, not by learning.

Stop, stop, stop and stop. Where was the term 'learning' used? It wasn't. Please don't attribute terms and then argue against them, that's a logical fallacy, right there. The key words I used in terms of evolution were 'acquired' and 'inherited'. It could also be argued the whole evolutionary process is a learning experience, nature 'learns' what is successful by trial of necessity affected by enabling and inhibiting factors.
When you suggest 'it's hardly a scientific one' you're quite utterly wrong it's very much a scientific theory as acknowledged in the first hit of a Google search on the subject, you might be interested to discover the article also argues the learned sociological perspective.
[www.techtimes.com]

> Regardless, nature arbors advantages not weakness.
> Species like to evolve. Members with more
> advantages survive and the other genetic lines die
> off. The less-advantageous genetic strains do not
> rise up against their more evolved cousins out of
> fear, aka a fear of Mutants. If this were the
> case, we'd all still be amoebas.

The X gene being present but dormant has been very much a theme within the comics.

The "science" of Marvel mutants is so horrendously wrong, it's not really worth arguing about.