... and I'm excited for it!

Could do without the beard but looks good otherwise, hopefully we can see one of them being more straight-up heroic feel and look.

Looks good but I agree that the beard doesn't do it for me. I just hope we get a crazy big collar and v cut green body suit that goes down to his belly button. Gotta love the 70s.

J Bone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks good but I agree that the beard doesn't do
> it for me. I just hope we get a crazy big collar
> and v cut green body suit that goes down to his
> belly button. Gotta love the 70s.

Well from the trailer it looks like they'll have a shirt that's at least similar to his comic look, if only because they need to show off his dragon brand (although it should look more like a brand, like Kwai Chang Caine with his arm brands when he completed his training at the temple prior to the start of the Kung Fu tv series).

Some may find this interesting: An Argument for Casting an Asian-American Actor to Portray Danny Rand/Iron Fist.

(The article's two years old, and obviously Danny Rand has already been cast for the Netflix series, but it's still a good read.)

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some may find this interesting:
> [url=https://thenerdsofcolor.org/2014/03/11/marvel
> -please-cast-an-asian-american-iron-fist/]An
> Argument for Casting an Asian-American Actor to
> Portray Danny Rand/Iron Fist[/url].
>
> (The article's two years old, and obviously Danny
> Rand has already been cast for the Netflix series,
> but it's still a good read.)

Lost interest when he got to the 'oh yeah how horrible having a white guy in that being so skilled at martial arts, he was just an almighty white guy trope', quite blind to the fact his argument basically goes back to the OTHER stereotype of 'all asians are skilled at Martial Arts'. So the article basically tries and spins it as terrible having a white character be so great at Martial Arts, implying that none of them should be, and that instead the only 'proper' choice is an asian. Might as well argue that Dr. Strange shouldn't have been white either since of COURSE it should have been an asian being so capable of learning those ancient magical secrets (guess they met their racelift quota making the Ancient One white and female instead of being an asian male as he should have been).

Marvel already has its kick ass Asian Martial Artist, Shang Chi. Wish they could do something with that property but I hear its all muddled due to the rights to publish Fu Manchu material. But that book was quietly amazing back in its day.

Quote
Nightmask
Lost interest when he got to the 'oh yeah how horrible having a white guy in that being so skilled at martial arts, he was just an almighty white guy trope', quite blind to the fact his argument basically goes back to the OTHER stereotype of 'all asians are skilled at Martial Arts'. So the article basically tries and spins it as terrible having a white character be so great at Martial Arts, implying that none of them should be, and that instead the only 'proper' choice is an asian. Might as well argue that Dr. Strange shouldn't have been white either since of COURSE it should have been an asian being so capable of learning those ancient magical secrets (guess they met their racelift quota making the Ancient One white and female instead of being an asian male as he should have been).

But you do get that "Outsider (almost always a White Guy) who goes to a foreign culture, learns skills they've studied & trained in for centuries, and is automatically better at it and becomes their hero/savior (rather than someone from the culture becoming a hero to their own people)" is hella racist, right? It's not that White people can't be good martial artists, it's the way that the best martial artist is a White dude who's just magically better at it than actual Asian people that many readers -- especially Asian readers -- have issue with.
Which is why Keith Chow, the Chinese comics fan who wrote that article I linked to, was asking for a change: to see more people like him (who aren't just The Hand, and more than just Melinda May and Skye/Daisy Johnson) in a positive light. Asking for a mixed-race actor/character, even, which is even more rare to see represented.
And, yeah, "all Asians are good at martial arts" is a racist trope, sure. But having an Asian character, portrayed by an Asian actor, being good at Asian things isn't. Think of it as making a Chinese spin on Captain America, a character from a culture who embodies and exemplifies the positive aspects of that culture. Or, as Chow recommends, a character with forgotten ties to a culture who reconnects with them and embodies/exemplifies the best parts of them.

As for Doctor Strange and the Ancient One, I'll just point to what George Takei already said.

Quote
J Bone
Marvel already has its kick ass Asian Martial Artist, Shang Chi. Wish they could do something with that property but I hear its all muddled due to the rights to publish Fu Manchu material. But that book was quietly amazing back in its day.

(This was touched on in the article I'd linked) So Marvel can't have more than one Asian Martial Artist? Isn't that like saying they can't have more than one White Super-Soldier, or more than one Black Super-Strong guy? Marvel doesn't have many Asian characters, period (and most are, oddly, on the X-Men side of things: Daken, Jubilee, Lady Deathstrike, Shinobi Shaw, Surge, Yukio). There's Lady Bullseye (who, as a villain, isn't a positive portrayal), Kamala Khan, the Mandarin (who's largely been as much an embodiment of "Yellow Peril" as Fu Manchu), Nico Minoru, and... not much else. So adding more is a good thing.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
Nightmask
Lost interest when he got to the
> 'oh yeah how horrible having a white guy in that
> being so skilled at martial arts, he was just an
> almighty white guy trope', quite blind to the fact
> his argument basically goes back to the OTHER
> stereotype of 'all asians are skilled at Martial
> Arts'. So the article basically tries and spins it
> as terrible having a white character be so great
> at Martial Arts, implying that none of them should
> be, and that instead the only 'proper' choice is
> an asian. Might as well argue that Dr. Strange
> shouldn't have been white either since of COURSE
> it should have been an asian being so capable of
> learning those ancient magical secrets (guess they
> met their racelift quota making the Ancient One
> white and female instead of being an asian male as
> he should have been).

> But you do get that "Outsider (almost always a
> White Guy) who goes to a foreign culture, learns
> skills they've studied & trained in for centuries,
> and is automatically better at it and becomes
> their hero/savior (rather than someone from the
> culture becoming a hero to their own people)" is
> hella racist, right? It's not that White people
> can't be good martial artists, it's the way that
> the best martial artist is a White dude who's just
> magically better at it than actual Asian people
> that many readers -- especially Asian readers --
> have issue with.

It's only racist if you want to spin it that way. It's apparently a surprise to people that things like martial arts AREN'T genetically passed down (Lamark was wrong) so that after centuries of training there is no special aptitude for a particular group of people in something that they've done for centuries whether it's pearl diving, swimming, or fighting. It's just a different brand of racism to complain about the white guy displaying great aptitude for the martial arts like none of them should and it instead should be reserved just for Asians.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, yeah, "all Asians are good at martial arts"
> is a racist trope, sure. But having an Asian
> character, portrayed by an Asian actor, being good
> at Asian things isn't.

But the flaw in the argument here is that Iron Fist is not an Asian character, so casting an Asian into a role because the background material starts in China changes the story. I read the link, and I disagree with the assessment even though I do agree that we need more Asian and other non-white characters to stand out and shine for who and what they are. As for Iron Fist being the best there is: no. Shang-Chi is the undisputed Master of Kung Fu at Marvel, and he is definitely Asian. So sorry that his property is tied up in legal junk that he can't get a movie right now, but that doesn't mean other characters should be changed to "fix" something that isn't broken.

> Think of it as making a Chinese spin on Captain
> America, a character from a culture who embodies
> and exemplifies the positive aspects of that culture.
> Or, as Chow recommends, a character with
> forgotten ties to a culture who reconnects with
> them and embodies/exemplifies the best parts of
> them.

Shang-Chi. Again, character is currently unable to be developed as a movie property.


> As for Doctor Strange and the Ancient One, I'll
> just point to
> what George
> Takei already said.

I don't disagree entirely with George's comments, but if we're to believe that Hollywood is whitewashing stuff, then why didn't we get white actor for James Rhodes aka War Machine for the Iron Man movies? Why did we get the Earth-1610 black Nick Fury instead of a white actor to represent original Nick? Why did we get a black Heimdall in the Thor movies? I'm pretty sure blacks have gotten more obvious mistreatment based on ethnicity than Asians over the years, but they're being cast in blatantly white roles now... which some people agree with and others disagree with. The idea that Hollywood is suddenly more accepting of blacks but won't rethink its position on Asians seems off to me.

I believe the original take on it, that Marvel chose to use a white actress in place of an Asian man to distance themselves as much as possible from the wizened ancient Asian master stereotype because they were afraid of looking like they're stereotyping even though the original backstory has the character being Asian and located in Tibet. Personally, I think there may be some stereotyping to that, but I don't see it as a negative. I mean, The Ancient One in the comics was the Sorcerer Supreme and held that title and honorary name of "The Ancient One" for centuries, guarding the Earth dimension --not just his homeland from mystical threats from beyond. Changing his location to Nepal instead of China is just a means for the studio to rationalize their stupid backpeddling and politically correct over-thinking, trying to make it look like something other than it was. It wasn't about whitewashing, it was trying not to offend with an old stereotype... but if you try to avoid every stereotype, nothing could get made that resembles original source material because there is always someone who could be offended by something... so they pick and choose which stereotypes they want to avoid... in this case, trying to avoid ancient mystic master Asian guy.


>

Quote
J Bone
Marvel already has its kick ass
> Asian Martial Artist, Shang Chi. Wish they could
> do something with that property but I hear its all
> muddled due to the rights to publish Fu Manchu
> material. But that book was quietly amazing back
> in its day.

> (This was touched on in the article I'd linked)
> So Marvel can't have more than one Asian Martial
> Artist? Isn't that like saying they can't have
> more than one White Super-Soldier, or more than
> one Black Super-Strong guy?

Absolutely they can have more than one. But you can't say Iron Fist is the best there is and therefore must be recast as an Asian character because a white guy going to their culture and being the best martial artist and becoming the savior of the story is offensive. He's a white character who happened to be able to rise to a specific challenge in that culture and gained mystic kung fu powers from it. BUT... the master of Kung Fu --the most awesome of the best of the best-- is a humble Chinese man with no special explanations requiring changes to his race or background. Honestly, I hope that someday Marvel can sort out the whole Fu Manchu thing and make a Shang-Chi movie, because that would be awesome.


> Marvel doesn't have many Asian characters, period
> (and most are, oddly, on the X-Men side of things:
> Daken, Jubilee, Lady Deathstrike, Shinobi Shaw, Surge,
> Yukio). There's Lady Bullseye (who, as a villain,
> isn't a positive portrayal), Kamala Khan, the Mandarin
> (who's largely been as much an embodiment of
> "Yellow Peril" as Fu Manchu), Nico Minoru, and...
> not much else. So adding more is a good thing.

Adding more is a great idea; changing existing characters into something else to satisfy a "social justice" is not agenda is not.

Also, I would like to point out that when the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie was made, Kingpin being cast with a black actor was rationalized by many who liked the change and saw it as positive for putting a black man into a major role, even if as the main villain. They said it made sense because the character grew up on the streets and rose to his position of power through his own efforts, not as a matter of luck in gaining some special powers or having it handed to him, and that as a former thug from the streets, it just "made sense" for him to be black. But then you say that Lady Bullseye can't be a positive portrayal for Asians because it's a villain role. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's more ways to look at the issue, and there are people who disagree. Personally, I found the argument for Kingpin being black to be rather racist as it implied that blacks are thugs from the streets and more likely to rise to positions of criminal power, but whatever.

There have been other Asian characters than the ones you've listed, they're just not as well known or their popularity hasn't endured.

• A major one is Colleen Wing, the woman samurai partner of Misty Knight. Maybe we'll see her and Misty team up in a Daughters of the Dragon show later on... maybe not. Too soon to tell.
• Speaking of X-Men related characters, you forgot to mention Sunfire (who also had a female counterpart in an alternate reality which showed up in the Exiles comics for awhile).
• Not to mention X-Men's Karma, one of the original New Mutants team.
• Armor and Surge, who are X-Men students.
• Amadeus Cho who, before being handed the Hulk's powers for no good reason, was known as The Smart Kid --one of the seven smartest people in the world... and he was backed by the Olympian goddess Athena as her champion for awhile.
• Jimmy Woo, former SHIELD agent who wound up leading the Agents of Atlas (which included a robot, a white man trapped in a gorilla body, the white Atlantean woman Namora, the Greek goddess impersonator known as Venus, and a white guy called the Uranian --formerly Marvel Boy).
• There was also the replacement Turbo from the older New Warriors comics who was later featured in The Loners miniseries.
• Let's not forget that Marvel's celestial madonna, Mantis, is also Asian.
• And, while Iron Fist is a white man champion in a world of mystic martial arts, there are other Living Weapon warriors who are purely Asian, including Fat Cobra, Bride of Nine Spiders, Tiger's Beautiful Daughter.
• You also forgot former Thunderbolts member Bolt...

...and probably many more; I didn't even need to dip into the villain category to find these. Sure, you can list a handful of Asian characters and say we need more, but you're being disingenuous by representing that short list being all there are as a reason for adding more.

Quote
Nightmask
It's only racist if you want to spin it that way. It's apparently a surprise to people that things like martial arts AREN'T genetically passed down (Lamark was wrong) so that after centuries of training there is no special aptitude for a particular group of people in something that they've done for centuries whether it's pearl diving, swimming, or fighting. It's just a different brand of racism to complain about the white guy displaying great aptitude for the martial arts like none of them should and it instead should be reserved just for Asians.

Again, I'm not saying only Asian people can be martial artists or that White people can't learn martial arts. I'm saying an outsider coming into a culture and being better at skills and abilities than the natives who've practiced those skills for centuries, skills and arts that are an intricate part of that culture, and becoming The Best at those skills and the hero/savior for those people, instead of letting a person from that culture be the culture's own hero/savior, is a problem. Especially when it's a White person doing it, because that stems from "White people are better at everything" type of racist thinking that goes hand-in-hand with so many other racist things.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
But the flaw in the argument here is that Iron Fist is not an Asian character, so casting an Asian into a role because the background material starts in China changes the story. I read the link, and I disagree with the assessment even though I do agree that we need more Asian and other non-white characters to stand out and shine for who and what they are. As for Iron Fist being the best there is: no. Shang-Chi is the undisputed Master of Kung Fu at Marvel, and he is definitely Asian. So sorry that his property is tied up in legal junk that he can't get a movie right now, but that doesn't mean other characters should be changed to "fix" something that isn't broken.

Yes, it would be a change, for the better. And the Iron Fist character as he is now is broken, because he's based on the racist "Mighty Whitey" trope.

Look, there’s nothing in the Iron Fist story that demands Danny Rand be White, just that he not be native to the Tibetan (or Nepalese of wherever) city of K’un L’un. As an Asian-American, he can still be the son of a wealthy businessman. He can still accompany his family on an expedition to seek out K’un L’un in Tibet (or Nepal or wherever). He can still train under Lei Kung, the Thunderer. He can still seek revenge against the man who killed his father. Danny being Asian-American precludes none of these things, but this way, his journey & becoming a Living Weapon is more about cultural re-connection, and not Mighty Whitey cultural appropriation.

"But Danny Rand being White is an important part of the relationship he was with Luke Cage!" Yes, that is true, "Rich White Guy Danny Rand Becoming BFF's with Poor Black Man Luke Cage" has given us lots of excellent stories and a fun dynamic relationship over the decades. Which you can read in all the Power Man & Iron Fist comics that still exist. Those stories are still out there. But "Rich Chinese-American Danny Rand Becoming BFFs with Poor Black Man Luke Cage" could tell equally interesting stories, with new character dynamics, like seeing how they both face various forms of racism from without (anti-Asian and anti-Black racism from Whites) and from within (i.e., anti-Black racism among Asians, anti-Asian racism among Blacks).

Quote
Thrudjelmer
I don't disagree entirely with George's comments, but if we're to believe that Hollywood is whitewashing stuff, then why didn't we get white actor for James Rhodes aka War Machine for the Iron Man movies? Why did we get the Earth-1610 black Nick Fury instead of a white actor to represent original Nick? Why did we get a black Heimdall in the Thor movies? I'm pretty sure blacks have gotten more obvious mistreatment based on ethnicity than Asians over the years, but they're being cast in blatantly white roles now... which some people agree with and others disagree with. The idea that Hollywood is suddenly more accepting of blacks but won't rethink its position on Asians seems off to me.

Wait, so, because Hollywood isn't whitewashing every Asian and Black character, you don't see whitewashing is a problem?

Yes, they have included more diversity, changed some characters around. They are getting better at showing more non-White characters. (More queer characters would be nice, but that's another issue being tackled in anther thread.) But they're still a far way from having equal representation. And doing so isn't about adding diversity for the sake of diversity, it’s about subtracting homogeneity for the sake of realism; White is not, and should not be, the default human condition.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
I believe the original take on it, that Marvel chose to use a white actress in place of an Asian man to distance themselves as much as possible from the wizened ancient Asian master stereotype because they were afraid of looking like they're stereotyping even though the original backstory has the character being Asian and located in Tibet. Personally, I think there may be some stereotyping to that, but I don't see it as a negative. I mean, The Ancient One in the comics was the Sorcerer Supreme and held that title and honorary name of "The Ancient One" for centuries, guarding the Earth dimension --not just his homeland from mystical threats from beyond. Changing his location to Nepal instead of China is just a means for the studio to rationalize their stupid backpeddling and politically correct over-thinking, trying to make it look like something other than it was. It wasn't about whitewashing, it was trying not to offend with an old stereotype... but if you try to avoid every stereotype, nothing could get made that resembles original source material because there is always someone who could be offended by something... so they pick and choose which stereotypes they want to avoid... in this case, trying to avoid ancient mystic master Asian guy.

My understanding of the reason behind the change wasn't to avoid the Wizened Asian Master steroetype, but to avoid having a Tibetan character (the same reason they moved things from Tibet to Nepal) -- because otherwise the Chinese government would refuse to show the movie, and China's a huge audience. So, it's more of a Capitalism thing than a racism thing, though there are still racist elements in effect (anti-Tibetan racism by Chinese people).

Quote
Thrudjelmer
Adding more is a great idea; changing existing characters into something else to satisfy a "social justice" is not agenda is not.

You do get that Marvel Comics was kinda built on diversity and social justice, though, right?

• Captain America was made by Jewish creators; a young boy with many disabilities who fought for his country,
• Magneto was a Jewish man (later Sinte/Romani, later Jewish again) who experienced oppression and genocide on a grand scale in his time imprisoned by Nazis,
• The X-Men have been used as allegory or metaphor for any given oppressed minority group fighting for their rights (though they've always been an odd sell for that),
• Spider-Man was a young, nerdy kid, bullied at school, who lost his parents and lived with his uncle & aunt, and who lost a relative to gun violence,
• Daredevil was a blind, Irish Catholic lawyer who demanded justice for the oppressed and the belittled,
• Luke Cage was a Black man in New York imprisoned for a crime he didn’t commit, and is impervious to bullets (something just as relevant now as it was when he was created, four years after MLK was shot & killed),
• Moon Knight, a mentally ill Jewish vigilante,
• Arnie Roth, one of Captain America's supporting characters during the 1980s and 1990s, was an openly gay Jewish man,
• The early 2000s addition of Araña/Spider-Girl/Spider-Anya, a Hispanic superheroine,
• The mid 2000s addition of Wiccan and Hulkling as a young gay couple,
• The latter 2000s/2010s addition of Faiza Hussain and Kamala Khan, young Muslim women superheroines,
• The 2010s addition of Robbie Reyes, the Latino Ghost Rider.

It's been there from the beginning, which is a great thing! Stan Lee's always said Marvel is supposed to be like the world you'd see outside your window, with real people and all their everyday struggles (unlike DC's approach of having their characters be more god-like and waving off everyday stuff). And real people are a diverse bunch, random, unpredictable grab-bags of characteristics.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
Also, I would like to point out that when the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie was made, Kingpin being cast with a black actor was rationalized by many who liked the change and saw it as positive for putting a black man into a major role, even if as the main villain. They said it made sense because the character grew up on the streets and rose to his position of power through his own efforts, not as a matter of luck in gaining some special powers or having it handed to him, and that as a former thug from the streets, it just "made sense" for him to be black. But then you say that Lady Bullseye can't be a positive portrayal for Asians because it's a villain role. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's more ways to look at the issue, and there are people who disagree. Personally, I found the argument for Kingpin being black to be rather racist as it implied that blacks are thugs from the streets and more likely to rise to positions of criminal power, but whatever.

I actually agree with you 100% on this part: I also felt casting Kingpin as Black was a mistake and carried many unfortunate implications. Which goes along with me saying having a minority character as a villain (like Lady Bullseye) isn't positive representation.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
There have been other Asian characters than the ones you've listed, they're just not as well known or their popularity hasn't endured.

• A major one is Colleen Wing, the woman samurai partner of Misty Knight. Maybe we'll see her and Misty team up in a Daughters of the Dragon show later on... maybe not. Too soon to tell.
• Speaking of X-Men related characters, you forgot to mention Sunfire (who also had a female counterpart in an alternate reality which showed up in the Exiles comics for awhile).
• Not to mention X-Men's Karma, one of the original New Mutants team.
• Armor and Surge, who are X-Men students.
• Amadeus Cho who, before being handed the Hulk's powers for no good reason, was known as The Smart Kid --one of the seven smartest people in the world... and he was backed by the Olympian goddess Athena as her champion for awhile.
• Jimmy Woo, former SHIELD agent who wound up leading the Agents of Atlas (which included a robot, a white man trapped in a gorilla body, the white Atlantean woman Namora, the Greek goddess impersonator known as Venus, and a white guy called the Uranian --formerly Marvel Boy).
• There was also the replacement Turbo from the older New Warriors comics who was later featured in The Loners miniseries.
• Let's not forget that Marvel's celestial madonna, Mantis, is also Asian.
• And, while Iron Fist is a white man champion in a world of mystic martial arts, there are other Living Weapon warriors who are purely Asian, including Fat Cobra, Bride of Nine Spiders, Tiger's Beautiful Daughter.
• You also forgot former Thunderbolts member Bolt...

...and probably many more; I didn't even need to dip into the villain category to find these. Sure, you can list a handful of Asian characters and say we need more, but you're being disingenuous by representing that short list being all there are as a reason for adding more.

And why hasn't their popularity endured? Because no one at Marvel remembered them? Because no one at Marvel wanted to write them? I think Marvel got their first Black writers in the early 1990s, and their first Asian one in the early 2000s.

Being able to name more Asian characters than me (including ones not seen in over a decade, like Thunderbolts member Jolt) isn't much of a victory, though, and here's why. You or I or anyone here could probably name every Asian character Marvel's done, hero and villain and other, in under an hour, two at the most. We could do the same with every Black character, and every Latinx character. Could we do that with every White character? In four hours? In a day? I would guess not, because the vast majority of Marvel's (and DC's) thousands and thousands characters are White. And that's the issue: the number of Asian (and Black and Latinx and etc.) characters are only a small fraction of the number of White characters; Asian readers should be able to find an Asian character as easily as a White reader can find a White character, because everyone should be able to see someone like them be a hero.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
Nightmask
It's only racist if you want to
> spin it that way. It's apparently a surprise to
> people that things like martial arts AREN'T
> genetically passed down (Lamark was wrong) so that
> after centuries of training there is no special
> aptitude for a particular group of people in
> something that they've done for centuries whether
> it's pearl diving, swimming, or fighting. It's
> just a different brand of racism to complain about
> the white guy displaying great aptitude for the
> martial arts like none of them should and it
> instead should be reserved just for
> Asians.

> Again, I'm not saying only Asian people can
> be martial artists or that White people
> can't learn martial arts. I'm saying an
> outsider coming into a culture and being better at
> skills and abilities than the natives who've
> practiced those skills for centuries, skills and
> arts that are an intricate part of that culture,
> and becoming The Best at those skills and the
> hero/savior for those people, instead of letting a
> person from that culture be the culture's own
> hero/savior, is a problem. Especially when it's a
> White person doing it, because that stems from
> "White people are better at everything" type of
> racist thinking that goes hand-in-hand with so
> many other racist things.

I guess I'll repeat myself somewhat here: just because the natives have been practicing something for centuries and it's woven into their culture does not mean that they are somehow going to be inherently superior at it than someone from outside that culture particularly someone brought in as a child. They do not have some kind of special knowledge or inherited aptitude to learn it. Such ego issues however certainly do show up as there's always an antagonistic character if not several who resent the outsider for being good at what they can do because in their prejudiced views the only ones who should be able to learn or excel at their thing is them and no one else.

Also again you're projecting a racist viewpoint that's not actually there, because Iron Fist is white you're just slapping that racist motivation onto the character. He is not 'Mighty Whitey', he's not there making it out that somehow white people are just better, he just happens to be a white person who was due to having just as much training as the others around his age was a little bit better and earned his title as Iron Fist but wasn't actually the very best as he certainly could be beaten by at least one of the old masters and his chief rival managed to win a few fights against him as well. You're looking at the character and looking for racism so of course you see what isn't there it's a common problem in the world. Insisting that he should be Asian is far more racist, playing into a number of negative stereotypes and isn't anything positive about it.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look, there’s nothing in the Iron Fist
> story that demands Danny Rand be White,
> just that he not be native to the Tibetan
> (or Nepalese of wherever) city of K’un L’un.
> As an Asian-American, he can still be the
> son of a wealthy businessman. He can still
> accompany his family on an expedition to seek out
> K’un L’un in Tibet (or Nepal or wherever). He
> can still train under Lei Kung, the
> Thunderer. He can still seek revenge
> against the man who killed his father. Danny
> being Asian-American precludes none of
> these things, but this way, his journey & becoming
> a Living Weapon is more about cultural
> re-connection, and not Mighty Whitey cultural
> appropriation.

And how is saying that Danny can be Asian-American and that would make the story better any different from him being white? I mean, a large part of your argument seems based on the idea that an outsider is stealing the culture (a fairly ridiculous concept) of the Chinese... but only because he's white. An Asian-American Danny Rand would still be an outsider, he'd just be an outsider that looks like one of the natives. Also, consider this: while the story is all Asian-centric, it is not in China or Japan or any other real land... it's in a fictional mystical land called K'un L'unn. If moving "The Ancient One" away from Tibet is enough to satisfy you in justifying replacing an old Chinese man with a European white actress, then why is it so important to make Danny Rand Asian? I'll tell you why... because whites have become the new blacks. It's okay to push them aside, say what you want about them, make jokes, and otherwise belittle them because they're still "in power" so it's not the same as oppressing blacks was. Granted, it's not the same... yet. But it's still racist behavior saying white people can't or shouldn't do something because of the color of their skin, and racism leads to more racism --not less. As the behavior becomes normalized over time, things could easily shift the other way with whites becoming oppressed. But hey, where's all this cultural appropriation talk about Norway's myths being appropriated and changed to have a black Heimdall in the Thor movies? Not a villain, so that's just a positive shift for minorities even if it does infringe on the beliefs and culture of others, right?

Quote
Nightmask
Also again you're projecting a racist viewpoint that's not actually there, because Iron Fist is white you're just slapping that racist motivation onto the character. He is not 'Mighty Whitey', he's not there making it out that somehow white people are just better, he just happens to be a white person who was due to having just as much training as the others around his age was a little bit better and earned his title as Iron Fist but wasn't actually the very best as he certainly could be beaten by at least one of the old masters and his chief rival managed to win a few fights against him as well. You're looking at the character and looking for racism so of course you see what isn't there it's a common problem in the world.

When Roy Thomas and Gil Kane created Iron Fist, I'm sure they didn't set out to make a racist character. I'm sure they weren't actively thinking "White people are inherently better, so of course he can win the tournament and become the next Living Weapon." I'm sure that, if you asked them, they'd say they're not racist. Lots of people involved in the comics industry -- lots of people, period -- would likely respond the same way, because most people don't think they're racist.

That doesn't mean the concept isn't racist. You can be offensive without intending to offend, you can insult someone without being aware you're insulting them. Doing something offensive while not knowing you're being offensive doesn't mean you're not being offensive, doesn't make it any less offensive. This is one way racism and other forms of oppression perpetuate themselves, by people doing or saying offensive things while not knowing they're offensive.

So even though Thomas & Kane didn't intend to make a character with problematic elements, that doesn't mean the character doesn't have problematic elements.

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Thrudjelmer
And how is saying that Danny can be Asian-American and that would make the story better any different from him being white?

Because a] it adds diversity/removes homogeneity, and b] it becomes a story about reconnecting with his ancestor's culture, which he'd lost touch with while growing up in/assimilating to American/White American culture (something some new shows like ABC's Black-ish and Fresh Off The Boat are touching on).

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Thrudjelmer
Also, consider this: while the story is all Asian-centric, it is not in China or Japan or any other real land... it's in a fictional mystical land called K'un L'unn.

Here's something that may surprise you: that's not an excuse, because K'un L'un is still heavily coded as a Chinese/Tibetan culture. Most fictional settings/cultures are thinly (or not so thinly) coded versions of existing cultures, as a way to use aspects or elements of that culture (often "because it looks cool") without going into the details of what those elements mean to the culture or how they came to be part of it.

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Thrudjelmer
If moving "The Ancient One" away from Tibet is enough to satisfy you in justifying replacing an old Chinese man with a European white actress, then why is it so important to make Danny Rand Asian?

I never said that satisfies me, or thought I was even implying that. It satisfies Marvel, satisfies their bottom line. Tilda Swinton's a fine actress (I loved her in Constantine), but she should not be portraying a character who should be Tibetan (because there are so few Tibetan characters, so removing one removes a larger percentage of them than removing one White character would).

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Thrudjelmer
I'll tell you why... because whites have become the new blacks. It's okay to push them aside, say what you want about them, make jokes, and otherwise belittle them because they're still "in power" so it's not the same as oppressing blacks was. Granted, it's not the same... yet. But it's still racist behavior saying white people can't or shouldn't do something because of the color of their skin, and racism leads to more racism --not less. As the behavior becomes normalized over time, things could easily shift the other way with whites becoming oppressed.

... right, so, I'm a White guy (a Fat White Southern guy who is at best Lower-Middle Class, at that), and I don't get offended by "White People" jokes, or find them offensive, for a few reasons:

1. I can recognize that White people, as a whole, have systemically oppressed Asians and Blacks and Latinx and other People of Color (PoC) in America, which is where I live,
2. Most people, when they make White people jokes, only mean the shitty White people, and I am not a shitty White person,
3. When I am a shitty White person, the jokes remind me to STOP,
4. It’s hard to be offended when White people jokes involve bland food, tourist dads in socks and sandals, White girls in yoga pants obsessed with pumpkin spice lattes, suburban PTA moms, and other harmless stereotypes, while jokes about PoC involve them being called thugs, criminals, uneducated, illegal immigrants, use ethnic slurs, et cetera,
5. They’re usually actually funny, and don’t perpetuate stereotypes that will ever affect me economically, politically, or cause me any true harm, let alone create risks that “justify” my death/murder,
6. Because it's punching up.

To expand on that last point: "punching up" means mocking people in power, those above you, people who do the oppressing. Comedy is funny & brave when aimed at the powerful, when it subverts and condemns oppressive stereotypes. "Punching down" means mocking those without power, those below you, people who are oppressed. When aimed at the weak and persecuted, that's bullying, cruel and lazy, and tacitly reinforces oppression. White people (as a whole, in America and some other countries) have more power -- economic, political, social -- than Black people (as a whole, in America and some other countries), so making jokes about both of them isn't the same.

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Thrudjelmer
But hey, where's all this cultural appropriation talk about Norway's myths being appropriated and changed to have a black Heimdall in the Thor movies? Not a villain, so that's just a positive shift for minorities even if it does infringe on the beliefs and culture of others, right?

I remember there was an outcry about Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall... even though there were Black Vikings, the Norse traded with Africa and Asia, and -- most importantly -- Asgardians aren't Scandinavians (who aren't all White anyway), they're humanoid aliens. And, really, in a movie about a Norse(ish) God(-like alien) whom comes to the USA, befriends a 90 year old Irish-American soldier, a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, a Russian assassin, and a circus bowman, who band together to fight an invasion of different aliens, is "this character is Black" really where you draw the line for your suspension of disbelief? Is that where you defend "historical accuracy"?

Dr Archeville Wrote:
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>

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Nightmask
Also again you're projecting a
> racist viewpoint that's not actually there,
> because Iron Fist is white you're just slapping
> that racist motivation onto the character. He is
> not 'Mighty Whitey', he's not there making it out
> that somehow white people are just better, he just
> happens to be a white person who was due to having
> just as much training as the others around his age
> was a little bit better and earned his title as
> Iron Fist but wasn't actually the very best as he
> certainly could be beaten by at least one of the
> old masters and his chief rival managed to win a
> few fights against him as well. You're looking at
> the character and looking for racism so of course
> you see what isn't there it's a common problem in
> the world.

> When Roy Thomas and Gil Kane created Iron Fist,
> I'm sure they didn't set out to make a racist
> character. I'm sure they weren't actively
> thinking "White people are inherently better, so
> of course he can win the tournament and become the
> next Living Weapon." I'm sure that, if you asked
> them, they'd say they're not racist. Lots of
> people involved in the comics industry -- lots of
> people, period -- would likely respond the same
> way, because most people don't think they're
> racist.
>
> That doesn't mean the concept isn't racist. You
> can be offensive without intending to offend, you
> can insult someone without being aware you're
> insulting them. Doing something offensive while
> not knowing you're being offensive doesn't mean
> you're not being offensive, doesn't make it any
> less offensive. This is one way racism and other
> forms of oppression perpetuate themselves, by
> people doing or saying offensive things while not
> knowing they're offensive.
>
> So even though Thomas & Kane didn't intend to make
> a character with problematic elements, that
> doesn't mean the character doesn't have
> problematic elements.

Except the character does not have problematic elements, people looking for excuses to be offended are introducing problematic elements that aren't there. 'Oh he's white that's offensive it should be an Asian guy being the best at Martial Arts and learning that stuff' is what's racist, because it holds the racist belief that it's wrong for anyone who isn't Asian to be the best at that or display talent at it.

>

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Thrudjelmer
And how is saying that Danny
> can be Asian-American and that would make the
> story better any different from him being
> white?

> Because a] it adds diversity/removes homogeneity,
> and b] it becomes a story about reconnecting with
> his ancestor's culture, which he'd lost touch with
> while growing up in/assimilating to American/White
> American culture (something some new shows like
> ABC's Black-ish and Fresh Off The
> Boat are touching on).

Well okay that's just ridiculous, 'to be more diverse we need to remove the non-Asian guy and only have Asian guys in the role'. It also manages to be racist by acting as if just because he's Asian that it's inherently his culture as if Asian culture is a single monolithic thing when in fact there is no 'Asian Culture' there's only a variety of cultures some of them held by different Asian groups, others by different White groups, etc. That culture does not belong to just Asians AND it ignores the actual diversity involved by having the white person learn about this other culture and come to respect and value it and say to other whites that this culture is valuable as well. It's often an element of such stories that we see the character embracing this other culture either completely or to add to the culture that they came from showing how both are equally valuable and important.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
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> That doesn't mean the concept isn't racist. You
> can be offensive without intending to offend, you
> can insult someone without being aware you're
> insulting them. Doing something offensive while
> not knowing you're being offensive doesn't mean
> you're not being offensive, doesn't make it any
> less offensive. This is one way racism and other
> forms of oppression perpetuate themselves, by
> people doing or saying offensive things while not
> knowing they're offensive.

You can also be offended by literally or figuratively anything. You can be offended by people who wear brown T-shirts or who don't shower each and every day or you can look for anything that could possibly be interpretted in a racial context and choose to be offended by that. But just because some people find something offensive does not mean it was; if the intent wasn't meant to be racially offensive, then maybe it's on those who find it offensive to re-evaluate just how offensive whatever is and why, but also --and more importantly-- why it's "necessary" for others to change to suit their need to not be personally offended.


After all, I find this entire idea of changing characters ethnicity and/or gender for the sake of diversity to be very offensive, and I know I'm not the only one... so now everyone must stop it and just accept that what is is and add new stuff for what "should be."


And I think I'm done here.

... yeah, I think I'm done here, too. It's clear I'm not going to change the views either of you hold on these issues, and neither of you are going to change mine.

Though I will say, for all that we transpired in this thread, I am glad everyone kept things civil and did not resort to personal attacks. I know that's to be expected, since one of you is a Mod and we're all old-timers, but it still deserves notice.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some may find this interesting:
> [url=https://thenerdsofcolor.org/2014/03/11/marvel
> -please-cast-an-asian-american-iron-fist/]An
> Argument for Casting an Asian-American Actor to
> Portray Danny Rand/Iron Fist[/url].
>
> (The article's two years old, and obviously Danny
> Rand has already been cast for the Netflix series,
> but it's still a good read.)


I'm seriously hoping of a rumor that at the end of the doctor strange film the ancient one morphs into an older Asian man, and says part of your training to suspend disbelief was to accept that a woman could be the soccer supreme. odds of happening 1,000 to 1,

The problem with martial arts heroes is the acting seldom matches the action.

I didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if this has been touched on. I didn't have a problem with the suggestion that an Asian actor be cast as Iron Fist, nor do I have a problem with Tilda Swinton being the ancient one. I largely ignore race when looking at roles because to me that is one of the least important qualities of a character.

(race, names, and gender omitted replaced with trope)
The history of the character however makes his race irrelevant to the character. Father had been to this mystical place a long time ago and wanted to show his wife and child, so with the aid of his assistant he goes to find K'un L'un... he's been there before, this wasn't a whimsical flight of fancy. His team however doesn't believe him. His business partner is actually infatuated with Business man's wife and chucks the guy off a cliff so he can be with her. She finds out about it shoots the guy, not a lethal shot, she and young Danny flee blindly into the snow, only knowing that there's a killer still out there and the fleeting hope that dad was right. Killer leaves them for dead and takes over the company. Hope is all but lost and Wife and Junior are being hunted by a pack of wolves. They come to a rickety old bridge when the wolves pounce. Mom sacrifices herself to save child and as child crosses and witnesses his mother mauled to death by wolves a portal opens behind him and the monks of K'un L'un save the young child from death. Child is 8-10 at the time and "The Thunderer" teaches him the ways of the Iron Fist. Child who devotes his life to the study of martial arts, most likely Kung Fu or some style similar, masters it by the time he becomes an adult (age 21-25). He is not the first Iron Fist and he won't be the last.

Race, names, even gender withdrawn and its the same story of Kung Fu (Gung Fu in Mandarin), which means mastery over time.
I'm looking forward to this series, I wouldn't have cared if they had cast Donald Glover, Chloe Moretz, or Jet Li as long as they have a good performance and bring the story to life.

I understand the desire to bring about racial diversity but any artificial construct will ultimately fail in this regard. A few years back in the NFL the phase of the season where new coaches are hired or fired the number of black head coaches declined, I think only one remained and he had been the head coach for a number of years. Everyone started freaking out because the "Rooney rule" had failed, obviously it needed to be changed. I was in the camp of "Don't change it" because it would only penalize teams for choosing an non-minority coach even though they felt this guy was the best guy for the job. It's important to note that every team that had gotten a new coach did follow the rules requiring them to interview a minority for the job, there is no mandate for the mandatory interview of a Caucasian coach.

So every instance of "white-washing" will be called out, giving a black guy the role that is actually a white guy won't give points the other way, it'll be, "that makes sense to me."