Let's say a character has the Energy Touch power at RM (30) rank. Melee attacks from that character now deal 30 points of damage. But what if that character also possesses Incredible Strength? Should using the power stack the damage dealing a total of 70 points, or would you use that rule for characters aiding each other giving a +1CS bonus to damage to the highest rank as long as the damage ranks are within one rank of each other?

I can think of a number of combined effects like this, such as Extra Body Parts (fangs) + Health-Drain Touch... do vampires deal damage by the bite, the drain, both, or just the higher rank +1CS? What if the Human Torch, all flamed on, developed razor sharp claws for fingernails? Would he deal fire damage or edged damage or both types with the ranks combined or boosted?

I've really never had to deal with this before, but a player in my group has created a super strong character with electrified hands and I want to try to be consistent with how I handle this as well as similar situations from now on.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
Let's say a character has the Energy Touch power at RM (30) rank. Melee attacks from that character now deal 30 points of damage. But what if that character also possesses Incredible Strength? Should using the power stack the damage dealing a total of 70 points, or would you use that rule for characters aiding each other giving a +1CS bonus to damage to the highest rank as long as the damage ranks are within one rank of each other?

I can think of a number of combined effects like this, such as Extra Body Parts (fangs) + Health-Drain Touch... do vampires deal damage by the bite, the drain, both, or just the higher rank +1CS? What if the Human Torch, all flamed on, developed razor sharp claws for fingernails? Would he deal fire damage or edged damage or both types with the ranks combined or boosted?

I've really never had to deal with this before, but a player in my group has created a super strong character with electrified hands and I want to try to be consistent with how I handle this as well as similar situations from now on.

My suggestion and nothing more than that:

I don't think I would allow a character to combine attack damage and ranks like that. I would allow the player to either choose which damage he wished to apply or rule that the strongest or most effective one applies over the other. Allowing a single character to combine powers for multiple forms of attack damage seems to much like giving that character the ability to make multiple attacks for free. In your example, this character just went from doing 40 points of damage per attack to doing MN (70) damage; that is quite the damage increase for nothing more than a power stunt that would essentially be free to perform once the character in question performed it a few times. It would become part of his power set after that.

Perhaps, I might allow the character to roll a power stunt (karma cost necessary), if successful I may rule that the attack did IN (40) Energy Damage. This is equal to the characters strongest attack but allows the character the versatility of changing the damage type. But most likely in this situation I would rule these two forms could not be combined, just to keep from opening up Pandora's Box. Also, how would you determine what set of CS effects to use, Blunt or Energy? Both ): ? It seems a slippery slope from a judges point of view. I'm sure players would think it the greatest thing ever. I think the rules state some powers just can't be combined at all, might be a good time to make that call. Also, the character with IN (40) strength would be better served by hitting someone with a boulder for the +1 CS blunt damage increase.

If two players combined this attack together then they should get the +1 CS to damage for the double team, the character with IN (40) damage would have his attack boosted to AM (50) damage for this one. Again, that is TWO characters combining their attack, allowing one person to perform such stunts seems ....powerful to say the least.

Quote
Necromancer
In your example, this character just went from doing 40 points of damage per attack to doing MN (70) damage; that is quite the damage increase for nothing more than a power stunt that would essentially be free to perform once the character in question performed it a few times. It would become part of his power set after that.

If two players combined this attack together then they should get the +1 CS to damage for the double team, the character with IN (40) damage would have his attack boosted to AM (50) damage for this one. Again, that is TWO characters combining their attack, allowing one person to perform such stunts seems ....powerful to say the least.

I agree that MN (70) is overpowered, which is why I brought up the example of the two character double-team effect. Would it be overpowered to give a +1CS boost (and I always go to minimum rank # of next rank up) from 40 to 46 points? Why does this bonus need two characters? Essentially two characters are combining one attack each to get an increased boost. In this case, I would say the combined effect could stack like this unless the target has some resistance to one or both damage types... in which case, if the effect of one (or both) is reduced by the target's resistances and it brings the effective rank below more than one rank of the other damage type, then the combined attack would no longer be eligible for the damage boost.

For example: IN (40) strength + RM (30) energy touch against a target who has EX (20) Resistance to Energy turns the combo attack into effectively IN (40) strength + GD (10) energy touch, and so combined effect is lost and the character would only deal 40 damage from strength alone.

But again, I'm just questioning why or why not at this point. I'm not committed to this idea, I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
But again, I'm just questioning why or why not at this point. I'm not committed to this idea, I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

Combining powers is one of those very underdeveloped rules sections.

One thing seen among characters who can manipulate various forms of cosmic energy is the ability to convert energy for a +2 CS bonus to an ability for 1-10 rounds. Considering the character in your example has Energy Touch it may be an acceptable power stunt to adapt if more damage is really needed. At least, that is an already existing precedent to consider.

May be worth reading up on a character such as Zzax to get some idea of combining Strength and Energy forms. I'm pretty sure they tend to keep the Strength scores and Energy abilities separate in the write ups.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you feel he can have the power active simultaneously with focusing on punching something, considering it's a touch power you could argue that he has to be focusing on touching them rather than punching and can't enjoy both at the same time. If you feel he can combine them it still doesn't necessarily mean he can get the combined benefits all the time, especially if he's trying not to kill people.

His exact words about Energy Touch being a touch power: "Punching is touching. Bad touching, but still touching."

For the record, how would you all handle the effects of a flaming sword? Does it do edged sword damage or burning damage or combined damage somehow? I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible on the idea of combined effect single attacks.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
For the record, how would you all handle the effects of a flaming sword? Does it do edged sword damage or burning damage or combined damage somehow? I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible on the idea of combined effect single attacks.

Well a flaming sword would obviously be both, you're definitely going to be cutting and burning your target at the same time. I'm sure if you looked at equipment-using heroes and villains at least a few with melee weapons have weapons with similar effects you could inspect how they rated it.

Still I'd say it's much like with the Plasma Generation power, it can do it's main force damage plus 2 different sub-effects for 2CS less damage so you can have what amounts to combined damage like that (and not simply boosting the main damage by 1CS).

Quote
Thrudjelmer
His exact words about Energy Touch being a touch power: "Punching is touching. Bad touching, but still touching."

Which doesn't mean you, as GM, can't make it clear that the default nature of the power won't let it be active at the same time he's trying to strike someone for full damage with his strength. But that's up to you if you feel he'd abuse the effect, particularly if he selected both the power and the enhanced Strength stat.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
For the record, how would you all handle the effects of a flaming sword? Does it do edged sword damage or burning damage or combined damage somehow? I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible on the idea of combined effect single attacks.

I just read up on Surtur's sword in his write up; so I would stick with the ground work written there. Surtur's sword Twilight, (Sword of Doom) is composed of a Cl1000 material strength and inflicts Shift Z (500) edged attack damage. If Surtur can ignite the blade in the Eternal Flame of Destruction then Twilight gains the ability to inflict Class (3000) fire damage. So, I feel like in the spirit of the rules, the character should get the strongest single source of damage or be able to choose which damage type to inflict if the opponent is fire resistant.

I feel like your player is using a weak argument to violate the spirit of the rules. I have decided, in this situation I would say H--- NO!, but it is your campaign and your decision. Good Luck!

Choice of most effective damage type... check.

I've had to rule on a similar situation... The Human Torch making a grappling attack while sheathed in flames. I allowed both grapple damage and burn damage.

Quote
Dead Sidekick
I've had to rule on a similar situation... The Human Torch making a grappling attack while sheathed in flames. I allowed both grapple damage and burn damage.

Ok, I guess I will ask, who in the entire universe of Marvel did the Human Torch grapple?

Quote
Necromancer

Quote
Thrudjelmer
For the record, how would you all handle the effects of a flaming sword? Does it do edged sword damage or burning damage or combined damage somehow? I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible on the idea of combined effect single attacks.

I just read up on Surtur's sword in his write up; so I would stick with the ground work written there. Surtur's sword Twilight, (Sword of Doom) is composed of a Cl1000 material strength and inflicts Shift Z (500) edged attack damage. If Surtur can ignite the blade in the Eternal Flame of Destruction then Twilight gains the ability to inflict Class (3000) fire damage. So, I feel like in the spirit of the rules, the character should get the strongest single source of damage or be able to choose which damage type to inflict if the opponent is fire resistant.

I feel like your player is using a weak argument to violate the spirit of the rules. I have decided, in this situation I would say H--- NO!, but it is your campaign and your decision. Good Luck!

I wouldn't really look at Surtur's sword as a suitable example, it ends up with a Class damage energy field around it something few things could handle, it would vaporize a target before the blade itself could even reach the target to deal damage unlike someone with an Amazing material strength steel blade that was electrified for Remarkable energy damage with the edged damage.

Quote
Nightmask

Quote
Necromancer

Quote
Thrudjelmer
For the record, how would you all handle the effects of a flaming sword? Does it do edged sword damage or burning damage or combined damage somehow? I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible on the idea of combined effect single attacks.

I just read up on Surtur's sword in his write up; so I would stick with the ground work written there. Surtur's sword Twilight, (Sword of Doom) is composed of a Cl1000 material strength and inflicts Shift Z (500) edged attack damage. If Surtur can ignite the blade in the Eternal Flame of Destruction then Twilight gains the ability to inflict Class (3000) fire damage. So, I feel like in the spirit of the rules, the character should get the strongest single source of damage or be able to choose which damage type to inflict if the opponent is fire resistant.

I feel like your player is using a weak argument to violate the spirit of the rules. I have decided, in this situation I would say H--- NO!, but it is your campaign and your decision. Good Luck!

I wouldn't really look at Surtur's sword as a suitable example, it ends up with a Class damage energy field around it something few things could handle, it would vaporize a target before the blade itself could even reach the target to deal damage unlike someone with an Amazing material strength steel blade that was electrified for Remarkable energy damage with the edged damage.

Then I point to exhibit B, The Makluan Blade wielded by the Swordsman with it's 6 different types of damage.

Related, how does plasma generation work? It's the same concept, three possible damage effects on one blast.

It's primarily force damage with two additional effects at -2CS of the rank. So... yeah, how does that work? Would a RM (30) Plasma with fire & electricity effects deal a total of 50 points (30 force + 10 fire + 10 energy) for a Remarkable rank power? I mean, if we're talking about player's trying to get away with stuff combining powers, isn't the Ultimate Powers Book also just giving stuff away?

Quote
Thrudjelmer
It's primarily force damage with two additional effects at -2CS of the rank. So... yeah, how does that work? Would a RM (30) Plasma with fire & electricity effects deal a total of 50 points (30 force + 10 fire + 10 energy) for a Remarkable rank power? I mean, if we're talking about player's trying to get away with stuff combining powers, isn't the Ultimate Powers Book also just giving stuff away?

It's not giving stuff away, some powers are just better at some things than others. That also can work against the hero since until he power stunts non-harmful side effects he's much more likely to kill someone from the added damage.

Quote
Necromancer

Quote
Dead Sidekick
I've had to rule on a similar situation... The Human Torch making a grappling attack while sheathed in flames. I allowed both grapple damage and burn damage.

Ok, I guess I will ask, who in the entire universe of Marvel did the Human Torch grapple?

The Punisher,

Quote
Nightmask

Quote
Thrudjelmer
It's primarily force damage with two additional effects at -2CS of the rank. So... yeah, how does that work? Would a RM (30) Plasma with fire & electricity effects deal a total of 50 points (30 force + 10 fire + 10 energy) for a Remarkable rank power? I mean, if we're talking about player's trying to get away with stuff combining powers, isn't the Ultimate Powers Book also just giving stuff away?

It's not giving stuff away, some powers are just better at some things than others. That also can work against the hero since until he power stunts non-harmful side effects he's much more likely to kill someone from the added damage.

Meh. I don't like this answer. It seems too arbitrary. Some powers are better at some things than others --in this case dealing damage, but someone with two powers that could work in synergy just don't because that would be giving too much to the player. Nope. I'm going to just allow the combined power use with the +1CS bonus to the higher rank because there's that double-teaming precedent and it's not as much as damage in one hit as just adding the two ranks together.

Quote
Thrudjelmer

Quote
Nightmask

Quote
Thrudjelmer
It's primarily force damage with two additional effects at -2CS of the rank. So... yeah, how does that work? Would a RM (30) Plasma with fire & electricity effects deal a total of 50 points (30 force + 10 fire + 10 energy) for a Remarkable rank power? I mean, if we're talking about player's trying to get away with stuff combining powers, isn't the Ultimate Powers Book also just giving stuff away?

It's not giving stuff away, some powers are just better at some things than others. That also can work against the hero since until he power stunts non-harmful side effects he's much more likely to kill someone from the added damage.

Meh. I don't like this answer. It seems too arbitrary. Some powers are better at some things than others --in this case dealing damage, but someone with two powers that could work in synergy just don't because that would be giving too much to the player. Nope. I'm going to just allow the combined power use with the +1CS bonus to the higher rank because there's that double-teaming precedent and it's not as much as damage in one hit as just adding the two ranks together.

I like that and it makes sense to me, alternately you could take the highest rank and if it breaches the body armor, force field, resistance, etc, then they take of the damage from the second ability without having to breach the protection a second time. Whichever feels better to you really.

Quote
Thrudjelmer

Quote
Nightmask

Quote
Thrudjelmer
It's primarily force damage with two additional effects at -2CS of the rank. So... yeah, how does that work? Would a RM (30) Plasma with fire & electricity effects deal a total of 50 points (30 force + 10 fire + 10 energy) for a Remarkable rank power? I mean, if we're talking about player's trying to get away with stuff combining powers, isn't the Ultimate Powers Book also just giving stuff away?

It's not giving stuff away, some powers are just better at some things than others. That also can work against the hero since until he power stunts non-harmful side effects he's much more likely to kill someone from the added damage.

Meh. I don't like this answer. It seems too arbitrary. Some powers are better at some things than others --in this case dealing damage, but someone with two powers that could work in synergy just don't because that would be giving too much to the player. Nope. I'm going to just allow the combined power use with the +1CS bonus to the higher rank because there's that double-teaming precedent and it's not as much as damage in one hit as just adding the two ranks together.

Except it's not arbitrary it's completely in keeping with this one specific power, it generates two other side-effects some of them being capable of doing damage on top of the basic force damage the Plasma Generation does. It's way more arbitrary to insist that when someone hits a target with their Remarkable rank Plasma blast that it's Good rank damage from its electrical charge and Good rank damage from its intense heat only result in the plasma damage going up to Incredible, particularly when someone with Good or better Body Resistance wouldn't even take damage from the side effects yet by using the rule that's not actually meant for it the force damage from the plasma can now deal an extra rank of damage that the target should have ignored completely.

First off, I'm not implying that Plasma Generation's effects be changed from how it already is. It's secondary effects would not push it's damage up a rank which would effectively overcome/ignore someone's resistance to whatever the secondary effects are. It would operate as it does dealing power rank damage with secondary effects dealing -2CS... which, even if using the combined attack rule would not boost the primary damage rating because -2CS is not within one rank of the highest rank.

And if the Plasma Generation power was a 2 slot power, I wouldn't be as quick to call it an arbitrary decision for it to have a better effect, but it's clearly getting a superior effect compared to other powers at the same rank. And the argument that Plasma Generation is more dangerous because it has more potential to kill someone because its greater damage means it is more likely to kill someone sounds like a bogus rationalization, especially when there are powers that cause kill checks with a Red FEAT and don't gain any additional damage or benefits because of it.

It is arbitrary to say that one power works with a combined effect better than other powers to the point that it actually works better than two powers working together at the same time. And your idea that I try to restrict the power by saying he can't attack with full strength while concentrating on the energy touch at the same time seems to imply that you believe that the player should have to pick one or the other (although I don't believe there's any specific ruling that says a touch attack power can't be applied with a full strength melee attack) just like there's no specific rule about attacking with flaming sword and having to choose which damage type to apply. It's a shortfall of the rules as written that it wasn't covered better. But when there are existing precedents, one being combined attacks of two or more characters and the other being a specific power description, I think there's room for debate... but arguments of "this power is just better" won't really do much to influence my opinion.