I don't read comic books anymore, but this one was well done. The Immortal Hulk is one of Hulk's strongest forms. Could the Thing win this one, against the clock?

I was always on team "thing CAN beat hulk", but he did win this fight recently...I think you know this?

Anyway, see FANTASTIC FOUR (latest volume) #12-13

As much as I love Ben, this was a tainted win in my books. They did a great disservice to him as a character here. Ben has always been someone who never gives up, especially if his love ones are in danger. Against the Champion, he got his body pretty much shattered and he kept going. Yet when faced with having to protect his new wife-- the woman he loves above all others in existence-- he pretty much throws in the towel. He needs a pep talk from Alicia to go one more round, all or nothing. That's not Ben. Ben wouldn't need the pep talk. He would clench his jaw and protect her, no matter the odds or the chance of survival.

In game terms, Ben could never win because his stats haven't been updated to reflect his true strength and, as a result, couldn't get through the Hulk's protection.

hmm, the game DOES have pineapple Thing & less potent versions of Hulk (like Mr Fix It), so even in the game supported here, one can have Thing/Hulk fights that go solidly for the Thing.

I managed a win with classic Thing vs mindless uber Hulk (advanced book stats) in the game myself...lots of Karma from prior play, and some adamantium knuckle dusters (for 88/Unearthly punch damage). Still needed the luck/karma to stun-o-ramma him, before Hulk got to SH Y or SH Z...(and, of course, I'd advanced Ben a bit...martial arts A might have been key? it was a long time ago.)

pretty sure I managed a Captain America win over Hulk (MA A,B & D as keys, plus shielding), too, but that included some other middle ranked avengers played by other players giving some "cover"/help.

I was never a fan of the look of the Spiky Thing. It was an absolutely terrible design, though it was nice seeing Ben win one in FF back in the day (though he lost immediately in the rematch in Hulk's book).

Regardless, I've never been on board with Ben only having Monstrous Strength. Even going back to the OHotMU books (Vol1, #11, pg 13 from 1983 for those who like sources), it's explicitly stated he could lift 85 tons. Unless my number sense has completely left me, 85 > 80. So right from the Basic rules he should have had Unearthly strength. After all, the Basic Campaign book says that Unearthly is over 80 tons (Basic/Orange Campaign Book, pg 5). If they wanted to label him at Monstrous (85) or something when they updated it for the Advanced rules, I still wouldn't be happy, but it would be closer to accurate and would allow him to get through Hulk's armor.

I never liked the spiky Thing either, even though he was stronger, albeit slightly slower. However, he did beat the Gray Hulk fairly in FF #325, when I used to read comics.

The updated Thing in the regular form now has unearthly strength, meaning he can now go toe to toe with a realistic chance to beat those with unhealthy strength. However the Immortal Hulk is one of the strongest version of the Hulk.

On strength levels, I disagree somewhat with the mechanics in the game. Fighting skills tend to be underrated. In the MMA matches, usually the guy with the greater skills wins, even if he can press fewer weight wins.

Given The Thing has powered himself up through hard work to the Unearthly level, it seems more plausible that he could beat the Hulk.

The story to me made it work. Usually, the Thing' s grumpy stick gets old quickly for me, but this time he was on is honeymoon, eager to change back to Ben Grimm for the special times he missed with Alicia. The last person he wanted to see was the Hulk.

Pineapple Thing wasn't a good look, no, and that period of the FF wasn't the best by any means either, but
(spikey) Thing
F incredible
A typical
S unearthly
E unearthly
R good
I excellent
P remarkable
health 246
karma 60
resources: remarkable
popularity: 80

body armor: amazing vs physical or fire, remarkable vs other energy
hyperbreath: ex at 2 areas
talents: MA: B, wrestling, incredible rank pilot & aircraft design
contacts: lots

is DEFINITELY the Thing to take on any given Hulk

Captain Knucklehead: I agree...it's not a good pair of comics, especially for old time fans. Ben is off, but even immortal hulk is as well. He's written as (default) hulk. I wasn't keen on the immortal hulk idea to start, but it was a bold direction to make a horror comic book & I came around(mostly). None the less, despite all the TALK about his power, what we SEE is the most easily damaged hulk there ever has been. He's constantly being dismembered, shredded, melted, etc. I'd rank his body armor at excellent, or if very generous, remarkable, TOPS. He's not stronger than other versions either, save the Grey Hulk(s). OTOH, being immortal is indeed a powerful thing, in a different way. He's got immortality(new), regeneration, recovery & life support beyond other versions (of which the early versions didn't have at all).

Still, I'd actually expect a desperate power punch from the Thing to smash immortal Hulk like a baseball bat vs rotten melon...albeit a melon that just grows back...
A fight in the immortal hulk style probably would be a gross/gruesome affair, quite unsuited & different to the FF issues (which really seem to want to use a prior Hulk version, although maybe that is more just the immortal hulk outside his own horror universe bubble). I'd imagine Ben being horrified rather than afraid to start, as he appears to kill the hulk/inflicts horrific damage, Ben being horrified by his own actions, after taking payback/unleashing long standing/suppressed fury on I. Hulk, and perhaps fear setting in later as the immortal hulk keeps coming back later to attack anew...

strength probably is overrated in combat in ALL RPGs & comic books...but Ben's fighting skill advantage (higher ranks + talents) IS a factor in play

As to increases over history & so forth...well, sadly, Hulk has had far, far more. He's also re-imagined quite often in comparison. That certainly doesn't make the hulk better...indeed it probably indicates a weaker character, such that reinvention is NEEDED. Ben's been about the most shortchanged strongman type in the MCU, comparatively.

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Captain Knucklehead
I was never a fan of the look of the Spiky Thing. It was an absolutely terrible design, though it was nice seeing Ben win one in FF back in the day (though he lost immediately in the rematch in Hulk's book).

Regardless, I've never been on board with Ben only having Monstrous Strength. Even going back to the OHotMU books (Vol1, #11, pg 13 from 1983 for those who like sources), it's explicitly stated he could lift 85 tons. Unless my number sense has completely left me, 85 > 80. So right from the Basic rules he should have had Unearthly strength. After all, the Basic Campaign book says that Unearthly is over 80 tons (Basic/Orange Campaign Book, pg 5). If they wanted to label him at Monstrous (85) or something when they updated it for the Advanced rules, I still wouldn't be happy, but it would be closer to accurate and would allow him to get through Hulk's armor.

Except why would he have Unearthly Strength when it STARTS at having the ability to lift/press 100 tons? Ben DOESN'T meet the standards for Unearthly what's why he's Monstrous. The game is on the generous side as it is that with a red feat Ben can lift 100 tons when he's really capped at 85 tons.

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Nightmask

Except why would he have Unearthly Strength when it STARTS at having the ability to lift/press 100 tons? Ben DOESN'T meet the standards for Unearthly what's why he's Monstrous. The game is on the generous side as it is that with a red feat Ben can lift 100 tons when he's really capped at 85 tons.

I was wondering when you would chime in to offer your two cents. Here's where reading comprehension comes in: I mentioned at the outset that in the original ORANGE campaign book from 1984 (page 5), the entry for Unearthly strength explicitly says they can lift more than 80 tons. The Official Handbook for the Marvel Universe, from 1983 (thus before the game was published) states that Ben can lift 85 tons. Unless your understanding of math differs starkly from mine, 85 > 80. If you try and round it off to the nearest 10, then 85 becomes 90. There is NO mention of 100 tons. The Advanced book from 1986 (pg 16) lists Monstrous Strength as being able to lift "Up to 80 tons". Again, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe pre-dates the game and demonstrates he can lift 85 tons. "Up to 80 tons" indicates a maximum of 80 tons. Ben exceeds that by the weight of approximately 2 standard automobiles. That's hardly something to just hand wave away.

It isn't until the Revised Basic that they removed the "Up to" or "maximum" indication (pg 12 of the Revised rule book). If it follows the previous editions (as it likely would), then the weights mentioned would be considered the maximum lifting capacity. Thus 80 tons would be considered the maximum for Monstrous. Ben lifts more than 80 tons. In the same era, Wonderman could lift 95 tons. Can he lift 100 tons? No. Clearly not because 95 < 100. However, he still has Unearthly strength.

If you really need examples of Ben lifting over 100 tons, they've got cited references on his Marvel fandom entry here: Benjamin Grimm (Earth-616). It's really straight forward. He should always have had Unearthly strength by the game's parameters.

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Captain Knucklehead

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Nightmask

Except why would he have Unearthly Strength when it STARTS at having the ability to lift/press 100 tons? Ben DOESN'T meet the standards for Unearthly what's why he's Monstrous. The game is on the generous side as it is that with a red feat Ben can lift 100 tons when he's really capped at 85 tons.

I was wondering when you would chime in to offer your two cents. Here's where reading comprehension comes in: I mentioned at the outset that in the original ORANGE campaign book from 1984 (page 5), the entry for Unearthly strength explicitly says they can lift more than 80 tons. The Official Handbook for the Marvel Universe, from 1983 (thus before the game was published) states that Ben can lift 85 tons. Unless your understanding of math differs starkly from mine, 85 > 80. If you try and round it off to the nearest 10, then 85 becomes 90. There is NO mention of 100 tons. The Advanced book from 1986 (pg 16) lists Monstrous Strength as being able to lift "Up to 80 tons". Again, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe pre-dates the game and demonstrates he can lift 85 tons. "Up to 80 tons" indicates a maximum of 80 tons. Ben exceeds that by the weight of approximately 2 standard automobiles. That's hardly something to just hand wave away.

It isn't until the Revised Basic that they removed the "Up to" or "maximum" indication (pg 12 of the Revised rule book). If it follows the previous editions (as it likely would), then the weights mentioned would be considered the maximum lifting capacity. Thus 80 tons would be considered the maximum for Monstrous. Ben lifts more than 80 tons. In the same era, Wonderman could lift 95 tons. Can he lift 100 tons? No. Clearly not because 95 < 100. However, he still has Unearthly strength.

If you really need examples of Ben lifting over 100 tons, they've got cited references on his Marvel fandom entry here: Benjamin Grimm (Earth-616). It's really straight forward. He should always have had Unearthly strength by the game's parameters.

A very good post minus being a tad harsh. These days Ben can lift /press 100 tons. So Unearthly for sure.

In the past technically, you are correct. A lower level of Unearthly fits. 75 points ( monstrous ) ,was not enough, If there was a 85-90 point rating say celestial strength, I'd chose that for the 1980's / 1990's Thing, and reserve unearthly for 100 tons or more.

I think the underselling of the Thing is he's in a group more often than not. Marvel greatly undersells fighting skill as far as battles go unless they are takling about Captain American, as he need every inch of it to win vs. the more powerful villains. Steve is an amazing fighter. Ben, just a notch below at incredible ( Which is pretty rate ) at Incredible. Combined with his strength level he should win a bit more often, at least i think so.

At a boxing or MMA match it's not decided by who bench presses the most, skills are the most important Thing ( pun intended ).

the weights were always pretty misleading

Ben suits "monstrous" in the game. for the advanced game, they ought have utilized the variable numbers, Thing would have had monstrous (85), Colossus Monstrous(70), and so on. These days everybody with super strength apparently gets unearthly, but that's ll best ignored.



the bridge is thousands of tons he's holding (although the super mutant there will soon give him a boost, Thing CAN hold it anyway, for a time)

or as some have noted " His feats include successfully holding back a giant alien spacecraft from jettisoning from Earth, lifting an oil rig and stopping a multiple story building (weighing roughly 30,000 tons) from falling over and lifting it back into place. Another feats include holding bridges main cables together for an extended period (which support about 10,000 tons). The most impressive feat was to overpower a pile driver mechanism stated to be powerful enough to push through a planet."

edit: ah, and for the Thing fans, might as well include this (although it is FF vs Hulk, not Thing solo).

yeah, there was a time the FF could clean Hulk's clock pretty handily...

the attachment is from uncanny x-men annual, see the thing level a fortress with a single blow...

The Thing Strength stat issue is exactly why I had created the Wondrous (WN (90)) rank in my MSH-X series. I always felt that AM and MN was too large (by the % span they represent) and vague and needed to be better defined. As an example, I hate how Spider-man can, on a Red FEAT, lift up to 50 tons (AM strength). I love Spidey but there is no way he can lift that much, even in dramatic moments. It is one of the few times MSH rules semi-break down. Same for the Thing.

So I had tweaked the ranks and put in 3 columns into the upper echelons in order to define them better and to minimize the bizarre rank jumping (like Spider-man).

FB (2) Able to press up to 50 lbs.
PR (4) Able to press up to 100 lbs.
TY (6) Able to press up to 200 lbs.
GD (10) Able to press up to 400 lbs.
EX (20) Able to press up to 800 lbs.
RM (30) Able to press up to 2000 lbs. (1 ton)
IN (40) Able to press up to 10 tons
AM (50) Able to press up to 25 tons
Fantastic (FN 60) Able to press up to 50 tons
Spectacular (SP 70) Able to press up to 65 tons
MN (80) Able to press up to 80 tons
Wondrous (WN 90) Able to press up to 95 tons
UN (100) Able to press up to 125 tons

That is what I did to tweak the game without, IMO, radically changing the game. It still keeps the “classic 100” in UN but gives boarder-line cases a higher (more damage) rank. For other stats the 3 added ranks really fit in nice and filled in some holes.

This is the Thing entry I had created when I was working on making MSH-X version of the Handbook.

nice job David

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davidrpaige
The Thing Strength stat issue is exactly why I had created the Wondrous (WN (90)) rank in my MSH-X series. I always felt that AM and MN was too large (by the % span they represent) and vague and needed to be better defined. As an example, I hate how Spider-man can, on a Red FEAT, lift up to 50 tons (AM strength). I love Spidey but there is no way he can lift that much, even in dramatic moments. It is one of the few times MSH rules semi-break down. Same for the Thing.

So I had tweaked the ranks and put in 3 columns into the upper echelons in order to define them better and to minimize the bizarre rank jumping (like Spider-man).

FB (2) Able to press up to 50 lbs.
PR (4) Able to press up to 100 lbs.
TY (6) Able to press up to 200 lbs.
GD (10) Able to press up to 400 lbs.
EX (20) Able to press up to 800 lbs.
RM (30) Able to press up to 2000 lbs. (1 ton)
IN (40) Able to press up to 10 tons
AM (50) Able to press up to 25 tons
Fantastic (FN 60) Able to press up to 50 tons
Spectacular (SP 70) Able to press up to 65 tons
MN (80) Able to press up to 80 tons
Wondrous (WN 90) Able to press up to 95 tons
UN (100) Able to press up to 125 tons

That is what I did to tweak the game without, IMO, radically changing the game. It still keeps the “classic 100” in UN but gives boarder-line cases a higher (more damage) rank. For other stats the 3 added ranks really fit in nice and filled in some holes.

I agree, more power ranks are a huge need. Copying and pasting what you wrote, I'd add the following for all FASERIP


Decrepit ( 1 ) Able to press up to 20 lbs.
FB (2) Able to press up to 50 lbs.
PR (4) Able to press up to 100 lbs.
TY (6) Able to press up to 200 lbs.
Above Average ( 8 ) Above to press up to 300 lbs
GD (10) Able to press up to 400 lbs.
Very Good ( 15 ) Able to press up to 600 lbs
EX (20) Able to press up to 800 lbs.
RM (30) Able to press up to 2000 lbs. (1 ton)
IN (40) Able to press up to 10 tons
AM (50) Able to press up to 25 tons
Fantastic (FN 60) Able to press up to 50 tons
Spectacular (SP 70) Able to press up to 65 tons
MN (80) Able to press up to 80 tons
Wondrous (WN 90) Able to press up to 95 tons
UN (100) Able to press up to 125 tons
Celestial (125)
Shift X ( 150 )
Shifty Y ( 200 )
Shift Z ( 500 )

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davidrpaige
This is the Thing entry I had created when I was working on making MSH-X version of the Handbook.

Pretty good. I think the Thing has has UN strength these days. One interesting thing, pun intentioned is many of marvel super strong characters have leaping ability, but the Thing does not. Maybe that's a gamma ray bi-product? Instead they gave him hyper breath at the excellent level, which he hardly uses.

Be on the lookout this December, because we're gonna have a rematch!
[insidepulse.com]

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Maniacles
Be on the lookout this December, because we're gonna have a rematch!
[insidepulse.com]

WOW, unless Ben brings adamantium knuckles, the Immortal Hulk is taking the re-match. It good to see they are more evenly matched after all these years.

Considering that it's going to happen in the pages of Immortal Hulk, it's a good bet that Hulk will win, yes. However... Banner's psyche is locked up, Devil Hulk is technically gone, Savage Hulk is reduced to a traumatized crybaby, and that only leaves Joe Fixit in charge of the Hulk body. And while Joe is quite cunning and a dirty fighter, the Hulk body is in flux right now after falling from orbit... it's big and green, but it has little muscle mass, looks emaciated with lots of loose green skin hanging all over the place. Unless that changes during the fight, Joe is going to have to rely on his wits to win... or at least to get away from the Thing until he or something else turns things around for the Hulk.

Has there ever been a graphic novel with the Hulk and the Thing being the focus?

Bruce and Benjamin, two men, trapped within a monster with sensitive issues when it comes life, friends and women are duped by Mephisto to help him overthrow an unknown force invading his realm with the reward being, he will rid them of the monster forever! The two men quickly put aside all differences and form a pact.

Of coruse, the invader is really a force good trapped within his realm of hell, but that isn't revealed to the very end when the combined forces of the Hulk and the Thing are about to win the day. The final choice must be made. Alica Masters and Betty Ross appear in their minds telling them to do it. Temptation, lust, pain, love...

One decides to finish the job and finishes it in seconds. The other will not act and looks on in horror. The red man smiles and waves his hand holding up his end of the bargain and says, you've got 5 minutes before the change is permanent, why don't you see who's stronger one last time. Then it's time for the Hulk vs. the Thing. A sea-saw battle of rage. The Thing starts out hot, and boy is he ever as he was the one who choose not to kill. The Hulk has never taken such a beating from him. Eventually, the Hulk turns the tide, and looks to be close to winning when time is called and he's back to Bruce Banner.

In a snap of his finger, Ben and Bruce are sent back. Ben remains the Thing. Bruce is himself. As he visits Betty and tells her what happened, she shuns him!. The Hulk has changed. Now a bone evil minion of destruction under the command of Mephisto. Never has he looked this scary. Memphisto orders the Hulk to destroy the best of the earths hero's one at a time staring with Captain America.

Ben somehow understands what Mephisto is up to. Cap is not match for this monster. He races to catch up with the Hulk before its too late..