In the Advanced Players Book, p38 Spending Karma section, last paragraph "Advancement" (just before the actual Advancement section), it states that Karma placed in an advancement fund is untouchable by the player for normal use (ie: combat and die rolls) and is unaffected by negative Karma modifiers.

Does that include immunity to the reset to 0 karma penalty for killing and failing to prevent death?

The more I've read the book, the more I think it is. I have limited the times that karma can get transferred to keep the risk up and discourage wanton murder

They don't explain it but I think the logic is that the fund is "spent" Karma. You can't take it back out, it isn't a banking situation, it's gone already. What the player is doing is accountancy to track how much is spent, not making a deposit in a bank and maybe you can withdraw it.

So using that logic, Karma is spent, therefore if total Karma loss occurs, unaffected since gone already.

If that is NOT the case, then my word yes they kiss that goodbye when they take a life.

No loopholes, spirit of the game, etc.

No, you lose everything when you kill including stuff in the 'bank' as it were. Several references point out how for one Wolverine hasn't seen any new power stunts or powers in ages because he can't ever save any karma and how anyone in a pool with him has to work to stop him from killing or also lose everything.

I've noticed one exception to the rule of not moving karma out of a fund: once karma from a fund is spent to successfully purchase or increase something, the remainder in that fund is allowed to be moved to another fund, but not back into the general pool used for dice rolls.

I guess the key lies in if the "Set to Zero" effect counts as a "negative karma effect" or not, grammatically speaking.

Obviously, the realistic answer is "however the Judge decides to rule it" for everyone's individual games, but I was just wondering if there was any written clarification on that point somewhere in the actual game material.

I found another statement supporting the idea that the Advancement Fund are not normally touched, even by Karma loss... in the Immortality power it states that when an immortal character "dies" (in the Earth dimension) they lose all karma, including that set aside for Advancement.

Given the specific addition of this statement here, and the lack of it in the other locations that discuss character death and Karma loss, I belive this strongly indicates that Advancement Funds are not normally lost, even when death is on the line.

(No Cecilians were harmed in the making of this statement. )

I can see death being a special circumstance where the character somehow forgets the investment put into improving....all that time at the gym...hours in a class room...

I wouldn't rule that way myself, but I can see it.

Also, removing the character's Karma from the karma pool seems fine for the first time it happens, but after awhile, the character's "death" being a temporary situation shouldn't be treated any different than a character taking a vacation.

After all, Immortality costs 2 slots! It's as costly as Reality Manipulation, Molecular Conversion, and all the other FU powers. Simply being unkillable is not game-breaking or OP.

I believe this was designed in the "this is D&D with super-powers" mindset common at the time. In D&D, being Immortal would have been the BEE'S KNEES! In a supers game, it's a very expensive way to prevent a player from having to make up a new character....that's it.

Especially if your "campaign" is fairly normal where character death RARELY ever happens anyway, it's almost a waste and more fluff than anything.

BY THE (Advanced) BOOK: Advancement Karma is spent karma and NOT lost when you kill.

That being said, in my games, I would have you lose it. I want to encourage a "good guys" feel. Death should be jarring. It should throw the character into a deep.....DEEP depression. Digging out of it is a story-arc in itself.

I also have the character take a big hit in Popularity, and possibly resources (ie loses job, investors go elsewhere, etc...if the hero has a public ID)

Now, regarding the penalty for killing....I WOULD remove ALL KARMA from the character, including that set aside for advancement. BY THE

"Death: Almost all heroes have a code against killing, acid this is reflected by the fact that if a hero kills an opponent, or through his actions allows a person to die, all Karma for the character is reduced to 0.
Karma that has been spent for advancement, building things, or influencing die rolls previous to the death is unaffected, but with the death, all current Karma is reduced to 0. New Karma may be earned from this point, but the Karma is lost, even if the character slain is later returned to life.
Accidental deaths and deaths resulting from the hero not being in control of his actions do not mitigate this effect." advanced players book pg 35, bold mine

"If a member of a Karma pool kills a character, or through his actions causes the death of another, both his individual Karma and that of the Karma pool to which he belongs is reduced to 0. (This is why the X-Men kept such an eye on Wolverine all these years.) Noble deaths, mysterious deaths, and self-destruction are handled as for individual characters." advanced players book pg 37 (& referenced earlier by some)

Thus, pools are no protection, but the question is not about them, but advancement

"In order to advance, individual players must create a separate listing or fund of Karma. Karma placed in that column will be used for a specific type of Advancement: Ability Advancement, Resource Advancement, Popularity Advancement, Power Advancement, Power Addition, Talent Addition, or Contact Addition." advanced players book pg 38

"Karma put aside must be put them for one of the seven purposes above. A character may not have an Advancement fund set up for
more than one of the seven purposes, but, after making a purchase in one area, may move the remaining Karma to another area." advanced players book pg 39

I think it is entirely plausible, even likely, to consider karma spent once in one of the advancement areas. Perhaps one could try to game the system, but I don't see it all too likely. One might limit the time when one can spend into advancement if they are worried. Others may like the idea this could mitigate losses if they wish to run a more vigilante type game.

My House Rule: If it's in the advancement fund, I don't touch it.

No amount of feeling guilty over someone dying is going to undo the time you've spent working out, training up, or improving your power use. But if you've got a lot of unspent Karma on hand that you haven't committed to that time and training... well, that's where the guilty feels gets ya.

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Thrudjelmer
My House Rule: If it's in the advancement fund, I don't touch it.

No amount of feeling guilty over someone dying is going to undo the time you've spent working out, training up, or improving your power use. But if you've got a lot of unspent Karma on hand that you haven't committed to that time and training... well, that's where the guilty feels gets ya.

Exactly. You aren't going to be 1 credit from completing your degree and then forget everything you learned. You might not finish it, but you aren't going to get guilt-amnesia

yeah I agree with barna10 and Thrud - good call and yet should villains get karma for torturing heroes yet Not kill them?

But I dont mind in certain situations a game mechanic may take preference over Realism. It's a game after all.

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G.A.W.
yeah I agree with barna10 and Thrud - good call and yet should villains get karma for torturing heroes yet Not kill them?

But I dont mind in certain situations a game mechanic may take preference over Realism. It's a game after all.

Only PCs gain Karma