Thrudjelmer Wrote:
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> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Unfortunately this is a case of fan bias,
> you're
> > seeing the character as better fighter than he
> > actually is and cherry-picking examples and
> > isolated cases and trying to present them as
> > examples of normal ability when they aren't.
>
> Everything is an isolated case until you stack
> them up next to each other. One example is a
> fluke. Two may just be dumb luck. Three, four,
> or more start showing a pattern. Unfortunately,
> there's not a lot of Kingpin fights to look to for
> regular examples of his abilities. However, if
> you can prove me wrong on that, I'd be happy to
> look at any evidence you have to share.
You don't have a pattern, you've a few isolated instances that you WANT to be a pattern to support your position. Kingpin's never been shown to be an overall Incredible rank fighter, he's a Remarkable rank fighter with some bonuses from combat training. You do not get to both say he's an Incredible rank fighter AND say he also gets the Martial Arts to add onto that while also being Incredible rank when the truth is he's Remarkable rank WITH Martial arts that raises his EFFECTIVE rank to Incredible.
> > Again, just because he won a fight against someone
> > with Amazing Fighting ability does NOT mean he's
> > an Amazing rank Fighter or even Incredible rank.
>
> It wasn't someone... it was two someones, one of
> whom is considered one of the world's greatest
> melee combatants.
Two someone's still doesn't make him Incredible rank, underdogs of lesser ability regularly win against better opponents in fiction almost as often in reality. He got lucky a few times, it happens. I'd no more accept that as reason to up his Fighting rank to Incredible than I'd accept Spider-man winning out over the Champion of the Universe means he must have Monstrous Fighting ability because he doesn't.
> > This isn't Amber Diceless RPG nor do the comics
> > run under their mechanics.
>
> No, the comics don't run the mechanics, but they
> do establish a standards by which character stats
> are determined. Some characters develop over
> time, others get left behind because they're not
> the main characters. Kingpin, a villain and
> mastermind, was established in the stats from the
> beginning of the game but has never grown or
> changed in the stats despite the comics expanding
> his backstory and growing his list of victories.
Because none of the expansion on him justifies him increasing any of his stats including Fighting it only better justifies how a guy who sits back and runs a massive criminal enterprise as the head man somehow still manages to be a formidable fighter of Remarkable ability and retains those Martial Arts skills instead of them atrophying due to sitting around running things all the time. Kingpin is not Bruce Wayne with a handwave to let him be both sitting around running a criminal empire all the time AND a nearly peak human in all abilities particularly Fighting.
> > Amazing Fighting can be beaten by someone
> > with lower ability even Excellent rank if luck
> > (and Karma) is with his opponent.
>
> And characters can grow beyond what their original
> stats were set at. I'm not arguing that Amazing
> can't be beaten by lower ranks; I'm stating that
> the examples --plural, as in more than a single,
> isolated incident-- provided demonstrate greater
> competency than his Fighting rank suggests.
You've several isolated incidents, none of which justifies Kingpin being an Incredible rank Fighter, they justify his Remarkable rank plus Martial Arts skills and his good fortune (i.e. karma) that's let him pull off victories he otherwise shouldn't have.
> > While the character is a physical powerhouse
> > compared to other regular humans he's not edging
> > into peak human potential when it comes to his
> > Fighting ability. He's focused into physical
> > power and durability and dishing out damage and
> > really just does not have time to get himself
> into
> > Incredible rank.
>
> Bzzzzt. Unacceptable argument. Please provide
> ANY evidence... ANY examples... that suggest
> Kingpin does not or has not had time to train
> himself to Incredible rank. Given his specific
> unusual physique, the shape he's in and that his
> bulk is all muscle, this is a man who trains a
> lot... and given that he is specifically described
> as gaining his exceptional durability (body armor,
> which is beyond "normal human" standards) from his
> fighting disciplines, it's not even a stretch to
> say his training is as combat oriented as
> weightlifting specific.
Well of course YOU don't want to accept it, it undercuts your efforts to claim Kingpin's a better fighter than he actually is. Also given you're the one claiming Kingpin's got all this free time to spend training constantly to be Incredible rank rather than Remarkable the burden falls on YOU to prove it, which you've failed to do so far. You've just a few fluke victories and some examples that better support that he's Remarkable rank with Martial Art talent enhancements to appear around Incredible rank. You don't get both, he can't both have Incredible Fighting and Martial Arts to boot, he's either Incredible Fighting and no Martial Arts talents or he's Remarkable rank and Martial Arts talents. Since we know he's got the talents then he cannot also have Incredible Fighting, he only has Remarkable.
> > He runs a criminal empire and most of his time
> > goes into that
>
> Again, show me where you are getting this lack of
> time. He's the head of the criminal underworld...
> which means he has enormous ability to delegate to
> minions. I'm not saying he doesn't go hands on
> when needed, or even how often "needed" might be;
> but your argument seems to expect X amount of
> devoted to running that empire which precludes
> time enough to maintain intensive personal
> training. Unless you can show me both the
> breakdown of time he spends running his empire and
> ALSO how much time specifically is needed to
> achieve and/or maintain an Incredible rank of
> Fighting, then your argument is completely without
> merit.
>
> Please try again.
No reason to bother continuing to try, since you'll continue to move the goalposts and otherwise ignore anything to the contrary that doesn't support your position. You didn't start this discussion with the intention to work out whether or not his rank is wrong, you already have the conclusion that he should be better ranked than he is and only wanted to hear people agree with you. Anyone disagreeing is rejected out of hand so since this isn't actually a discussion about his abilities there's no point continuing.
> > which means it's impressive he even manages
> > Remarkable rank but he's not Incredible rank
> > where you find characters like Wolverine let
> > alone nearing where people like Shang-Chi,
> > Captain America, or Iron Fist are at.
>
> I disagree. And, to back up my opinion, I've
> provided examples. You counter with arguments
> about time needed without any evidence to back up
> your point, making it purely speculative. And
> yes, while someone with a Remarkable Fighting
> could defeat someone with an Amazing, it would
> look more like luck (Karma) was coming into play
> rather than a greater degree of competence...
> which Kingpin DOES display and IS credited with
> having. You call him "normal human" and claim he
> simply cannot achieve higher than Remarkable
> Fighting while completely disregarding the fact
> that he has exceeded human norms with his
> Incredible Endurance (described as one rank above
> "Intensive exercise" at "Enhanced abilities") and
> his Body Armor of Poor which no "normal human"
> possesses based on their bulk.
Nothing speculative regarding the idea that you need a lot of time devoted to it to have and maintain an Incredible fighting rank. You see people like Captain America and Iron Fist constantly training to maintain their abilities because they require it, meanwhile you DON'T see Kingpin constantly training or engaging in the kind of fighting required to maintain an Incredible Fighting rank, you almost always see him engaged in dialogue and manipulating others to do his bidding. So you're the one tossing out highly speculative claims that Kingpin's somehow engaging in the kind of activity required to push him to Incredible level even though that's not what we see in the comics.
Also no, while he's definitely a Normal Human I never said he can't train to Incredible rank, I said he's simply not in the position to do so while maintaining active control over his empire because there's no way he can spend the kind of hours required every day to be Incredible rank AND run his empire. Even Mary Sue Batman can't do it and has people who run Wayne Enterprises for him for the most part.
> > During that final battle before OMD wiped that
> > glorious event out of continuity Spider-man put
> > Kingpin in his place as what he is: a man
> > confusing his power as a mobster kingpin with
> > REAL power and thinking he's something more
> > than he is, and what he is in the end is a
> normal
> > man.
>
> Yes, very good points... but meaningless since
> I've already cited the example of an enraged
> Spider-Man not holding back would defeat Kingpin.
> He's stronger and faster and has danger sense and
> other powers that make him more than match WHEN
> he's so ticked off that he won't hold back. Hell,
> sufficiently motivated, Spider-Man was also able
> to take on & immobilize Iron Man, then rip his
> helmet off and crush it.
Nothing meaningless about it, he clearly delineates how Kingpin isn't the powerhouse he's convinced himself he is and that he's still a normal human in the end.
> > One that's impressive as normal men goes
> > (which is what Remarkable rank is if you
> > actually look at it in context for what it is)
> > but not truly up there which is where
> > Incredible Fighting would be.
>
> Remarkable rank Fighting is described as "Superior
> talent," not "impressive as normal men goes."
> Incredible rank is described as having "Superior
> talent with training," and as has been indicated
> clearly by both game and comics material, Kingin
> DOES have the training in addition to talent.
> He's definitely not at the pinnacle of human
> potential, but he's above "superior talent."
> Perhaps, instead of telling me to actually look
> this up, you can try doing the same and cite your
> reference material and include quoted text.
> Because telling me to look it up and I do and find
> something different than what you're presenting
> doesn't make me wrong or you right. It only shows
> that you're either being intentionally vague
> because your counterpoints don't stand up to
> scrutiny, or your just not reading the same stuff
> I am.
No, Kingpin isn't above Superior Talent, and yes that's definitely impressive as Normal Men goes. The normal man if lucky has Good fighting ability, particularly experienced guys are at Excellent, and Remarkable is above that so definitely Impressive. Also as I've noted elsewhere Remarkable Fighting plus Martial Arts Talents gives him an EFFECTIVE and APPARENT Fighting ability of Incredible. It does NOT give him Incredible Fighting then toss on Martial Arts Talents too, that'd make him look to be Captain America level of ability and he's clearly not even close to that. This is a common problem with people when modeling, they want to give a character the highest rank possible PLUS the talents that make them appear to be at that rank so that now on the sheet they actually have superior ability to what we see in the comics. If you're truly interested in modeling him as he is in the comics then it's Remarkable Fighting Plus Martial Arts talents because that's what he is. He appears better than his base ability because he's got bonuses from his talents not because his base ability is that high.
In any case I've said my peace and don't intend to continue with this and repeating past fiascoes. You want him having abilities superior to what he actually has in the comics that's up to you but by the comics he's Remarkable Fighting Plus talents not Incredible Fighting plus talents. Maybe if they hadn't wiped out their last battle with OMD he could have been shown becoming a driven man training hard until he honestly had an Incredible Fighting ability to do a rematch and regain his 'street cred' but of course that'll never happen now.
"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."
-- Peter David
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