So I'm looking at stats for the Kingpin after watching the Daredevil series on Netflix and I'm wondering... Is Remarkable rank Fighting enough to account for the big man's abilities in the comics? He's also got Martial Arts A, B, and C as well as Wrestling. However, the Kingpin holds his own against superhuman foes like Spider-Man (unless he's just had Aunt May shot) and Captain America, as well as taking down the Punisher with no difficulties, not to mention being able to stand up to multiple ninjas and other martial artists.

Captain America has Amazing Fighting and what most people would consider superior combat skills and his shield. Kingpin overwhelmed him with speed and agility despite his bulk (but is Good Agility or Remarkable Fighting enough to justify catching Captain America off guard?) and a little bit of fighting dirty (he pulled the rug out from under him).

Punisher has Amazing fighting and talents, and had knives. Kingpin disarmed him easily, knocked him around like a rag doll, and was prepared to finish him off but for the intervention of a third party.

Spider-Man has superior reflexes and his danger sense, as well as super strength (though he's usually pulling his punches unless really ticked off). Kingpin has only Excellent strength and Poor body armor as a result of his physical conditioning, yet he's somehow proven himself a credible threat to Spider-Man in the past... again, unless Spidey is riled up beyond his breaking point and not holding back, at which time he's even been able to take on Iron Man.

Seems to me like Kingpin --like most villains-- has been underrated for the sake of the heroes having to be tougher than their villains.


My thoughts for a slightly improved Kingpin would boost his Fighting rank to Incredible and maybe add Martial Arts E to his talents since he's supposedly got this surprising speed despite having only Good Agility and Excellent Intuition. Also, maybe Leadership since --as his Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry states, "The Kingpin is a criminal genius and a highly skilled planner and organizer. He employs numerous henchmen, scientists, and even superhumans, almost all of whom are loyal to him due to dedication, fear, or both"?



KINGPIN

F - IN (40)
A - GD (10)
S - EX (20)
E - IN (40)
R - GD (10)
I - EX (20)
P - GD (10)

Health: 110
Karma: 40
Resources: IN (40)
Popularity: 0
Height: 6' 7"
Weight: 450 lbs.

KNOWN POWERS
Body Armor: PR (4) protection against physical damage through his fighting disciplines.

EQUIPMENT
Walking Stick: Remarkable material strength with a 3 shot laser that deals EX (20) energy damage at a range of 2 areas. It also contains 2 doses of Amazing intensity sleep gas which has a range of 1 area and causes a foe to sleep for 1-10 hours unless the Endurance FEAT is successful.

TALENTS
Business/Finance, Languages (English, Japanese), Leadership, Martial Arts (A, B, C, and E), Politics, Wrestling

CONTACTS
The Kingpin has Criminal Contacts and prides himself on knowing what is going on in his city, especially in the area of crime. He also has many Business/Finance contacts. His agents have infiltrated most businesses, law enforcement agencies, city government, and even the military.
[marvel.com]

Some source material to consider...

Kingpin really isn't Incredible rank, Remarkable's just fine for what he's accomplished (just look at everything Spider-Man's accomplished at Remarkable). He does as well as he does in part because people underestimate him and in Spider-Man's case isn't interested in killing him otherwise as we saw after his aunt's shooting Kingpin can't even touch Spider-Man even when he's down several pints of blood. Incredible requires extreme devotion to combat and fighting and Kingpin's just not doing that, while he does physical training to keep himself up it's just not going to put him at Incredible. Plus as a normal human he doesn't have such gifted ability to just naturally have Incredible rank Fighting ability.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kingpin really isn't Incredible rank, Remarkable's
> just fine for what he's accomplished (just look at
> everything Spider-Man's accomplished at
> Remarkable). He does as well as he does in part
> because people underestimate him and in
> Spider-Man's case isn't interested in killing him
> otherwise as we saw after his aunt's shooting
> Kingpin can't even touch Spider-Man even when he's
> down several pints of blood. Incredible requires
> extreme devotion to combat and fighting and
> Kingpin's just not doing that, while he does
> physical training to keep himself up it's just not
> going to put him at Incredible. Plus as a normal
> human he doesn't have such gifted ability to just
> naturally have Incredible rank Fighting ability.


Yes, when Spider-Man isn't holding back, it's bad times for Kingpin. But a Remarkable Fighting rank serves Spider-Man better than it does Kingpin because Spider-Man also has the combat advantage of his spider-sense. People underestimating Kingpin does not give him any combat advantage other than momentary surprise which hardly translates well into a combat advantage.

Kingpin absolutely does have great devotion to his fighting skills. Calling him a "normal human" is neither accurate nor does him justice. For one thing, "normal humans" can get up to Amazing rank fighting according to the standard benchmarks... and for another, Kingpin CLEARLY already goes beyond "normal" with his Incredible Endurance and Body Armor from his extreme devotion to his fighting disciplines.

He's bested the Punisher who has Amazing Fighting, and kept Captain America off balance and on the defense long enough to get him in a hold that could have finished the fight if not for Falcon & Redwing's intervention. I'd say his fighting ability is definitely underrated at Remarkable.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kingpin really isn't Incredible rank,
> Remarkable's
> > just fine for what he's accomplished (just look
> at
> > everything Spider-Man's accomplished at
> > Remarkable). He does as well as he does in
> part
> > because people underestimate him and in
> > Spider-Man's case isn't interested in killing
> him
> > otherwise as we saw after his aunt's shooting
> > Kingpin can't even touch Spider-Man even when
> he's
> > down several pints of blood. Incredible
> requires
> > extreme devotion to combat and fighting and
> > Kingpin's just not doing that, while he does
> > physical training to keep himself up it's just
> not
> > going to put him at Incredible. Plus as a
> normal
> > human he doesn't have such gifted ability to
> just
> > naturally have Incredible rank Fighting
> ability.
>
>
> Yes, when Spider-Man isn't holding back, it's bad
> times for Kingpin. But a Remarkable Fighting rank
> serves Spider-Man better than it does Kingpin
> because Spider-Man also has the combat advantage
> of his spider-sense. People underestimating
> Kingpin does not give him any combat advantage
> other than momentary surprise which hardly
> translates well into a combat advantage.
>
> Kingpin absolutely does have great devotion to his
> fighting skills. Calling him a "normal human" is
> neither accurate nor does him justice. For one
> thing, "normal humans" can get up to Amazing rank
> fighting according to the standard benchmarks...
> and for another, Kingpin CLEARLY already goes
> beyond "normal" with his Incredible Endurance and
> Body Armor from his extreme devotion to his
> fighting disciplines.

Calling him a normal human is entirely accurate because he is. He may have some training that gives him an exceptional Endurance (and his Body Armor btw comes from his heavy body, just as in RL such large guys can shrug off attacks that a normal-framed person would end up quite injured from) but that doesn't mean he's Incredible rank in his fighting, it's why he's got that Remarkable rank. Really you have to look at what Remarkable represents, it's a rank that a normal human already has to work his way up to (remember Excellent is normally the best they can get up to and that's for super-well trained military forces generally), it makes him astoundingly great as a fighter, greater than you average special forces soldier. He's already mind-blowingly good compared to most around.

> He's bested the Punisher who has Amazing Fighting,
> and kept Captain America off balance and on the
> defense long enough to get him in a hold that
> could have finished the fight if not for Falcon &
> Redwing's intervention. I'd say his fighting
> ability is definitely underrated at Remarkable.

Just because you get the advantage of someone with Amazing Fighting doesn't mean you must have an Incredible or better Fighting rank as well. Plus you have to take some of his victories with a grain of salt, narratively speaking any time he confronts the hero (or villain in Punisher's case) he is going to look good unless it's like THOR or HULK coming to get him, and since he has to survive due to plot armor even someone like Punisher will always lose to him or be driven off because unless it's a what-if he's not allowed to win and kill him. So with his Remarkable Fighting he still somehow manages the odds and defeats Punisher and even challenges Captain America. Then fails against Spider-man when he's in full-on determinator mode because he's just not in Spider-man's true weight class.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Calling him a normal human is entirely accurate
> because he is. He may have some training that
> gives him an exceptional Endurance

That makes him an exceptional human. I think where we're having our difference of opinion is the definition of "normal." You're correct in that he has not been bitten by a radioactive crime lord or is secretly a mutant with powers tied to an X-gene. In that regard, he is a normal human. But there are normal humans who have become altered humans by virtue of nothing more than exceptional training... such as Shang-Chi. Now, I am not saying Kingpin is on par with Shang-Chi, but I am comparing them as similar due to both gaining exceptional abilities through training.


> (and his Body Armor btw comes from his heavy
> body, just as in RL such large guys can shrug
> off attacks that a normal-framed person would
> end up quite injured from)

This is inaccurate as the Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe specifically states that his body armor comes from his fighting disciplines, not just his bulk. In fact, there are scores of large "normal" people throughout the official stats that have zero protection despite their size. His bulk plays into it, but he developed that bulk --his abnormal physiology-- through rigorous training... Training which we don't often see, but when they do give us a glimpse, they show Kingpin working out a roomful of experts and handling them easily, as someone with superior talent AND training.

I don't mind a differing opinion, but if you're going to present it like fact, then at least give something substantial to back it up.


And for the record, I would not call Remarkable "mind-blowingly good" unless you were only comparing him to average henchmen and/or average Karate black belts. I'm not talking about a fluke victory or two. I'm showing two cases where he's defeated two people of superior skills (both in Fighting rank as well as Talents possessed), plus instances where he's fighting multiple opponents of better than standard henchmen fighters, including Hand ninjas and fighters from the best martial arts schools. When he's done with the 8 martial artists, he berates them by saying he wants a "real workout" next time with double the numbers and to give more of them weapons.

That kind of skill goes beyond "superior talent" only. Yes, Spider-Man with his Remarkable Fighting could handle them without using his full strength, but only because his Amazing spider-sense gives him an edge, plus his reliance on his ability to leap 40' straight up and his wall-crawling to take him out of reach, as well as webshooters to immobilize.

Unfortunately this is a case of fan bias, you're seeing the character as better fighter than he actually is and cherry-picking examples and isolated cases and trying to present them as examples of normal ability when they aren't. Again, just because he won a fight against someone with Amazing Fighting ability does NOT mean he's an Amazing rank Fighter or even Incredible rank. This isn't Amber Diceless RPG nor do the comics run under their mechanics. Amazing Fighting can be beaten by someone with lower ability even Excellent rank if luck (and Karma) is with his opponent.

While the character is a physical powerhouse compared to other regular humans he's not edging into peak human potential when it comes to his Fighting ability. He's focused into physical power and durability and dishing out damage and really just does not have time to get himself into Incredible rank. He runs a criminal empire and most of his time goes into that which means it's impressive he even manages Remarkable rank but he's not Incredible rank where you find characters like Wolverine let alone nearing where people like Shang-Chi, Captain America, or Iron Fist are at.

Also no, it's not Spider-man's Spider-Sense that's why he can easily handle Kingpin when he's serious about it, it's because Spider-Man's superior in ability in general. During that final battle before OMD wiped that glorious event out of continuity Spider-man put Kingpin in his place as what he is: a man confusing his power as a mobster kingpin with REAL power and thinking he's something more than he is, and what he is in the end is a normal man. One that's impressive as normal men goes (which is what Remarkable rank is if you actually look at it in context for what it is) but not truly up there which is where Incredible Fighting would be.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unfortunately this is a case of fan bias, you're
> seeing the character as better fighter than he
> actually is and cherry-picking examples and
> isolated cases and trying to present them as
> examples of normal ability when they aren't.

Everything is an isolated case until you stack them up next to each other. One example is a fluke. Two may just be dumb luck. Three, four, or more start showing a pattern. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of Kingpin fights to look to for regular examples of his abilities. However, if you can prove me wrong on that, I'd be happy to look at any evidence you have to share.


> Again, just because he won a fight against someone
> with Amazing Fighting ability does NOT mean he's
> an Amazing rank Fighter or even Incredible rank.

It wasn't someone... it was two someones, one of whom is considered one of the world's greatest melee combatants.


> This isn't Amber Diceless RPG nor do the comics
> run under their mechanics.

No, the comics don't run the mechanics, but they do establish a standards by which character stats are determined. Some characters develop over time, others get left behind because they're not the main characters. Kingpin, a villain and mastermind, was established in the stats from the beginning of the game but has never grown or changed in the stats despite the comics expanding his backstory and growing his list of victories.


> Amazing Fighting can be beaten by someone
> with lower ability even Excellent rank if luck
> (and Karma) is with his opponent.

And characters can grow beyond what their original stats were set at. I'm not arguing that Amazing can't be beaten by lower ranks; I'm stating that the examples --plural, as in more than a single, isolated incident-- provided demonstrate greater competency than his Fighting rank suggests.


> While the character is a physical powerhouse
> compared to other regular humans he's not edging
> into peak human potential when it comes to his
> Fighting ability. He's focused into physical
> power and durability and dishing out damage and
> really just does not have time to get himself into
> Incredible rank.

Bzzzzt. Unacceptable argument. Please provide ANY evidence... ANY examples... that suggest Kingpin does not or has not had time to train himself to Incredible rank. Given his specific unusual physique, the shape he's in and that his bulk is all muscle, this is a man who trains a lot... and given that he is specifically described as gaining his exceptional durability (body armor, which is beyond "normal human" standards) from his fighting disciplines, it's not even a stretch to say his training is as combat oriented as weightlifting specific.

> He runs a criminal empire and most of his time
> goes into that

Again, show me where you are getting this lack of time. He's the head of the criminal underworld... which means he has enormous ability to delegate to minions. I'm not saying he doesn't go hands on when needed, or even how often "needed" might be; but your argument seems to expect X amount of devoted to running that empire which precludes time enough to maintain intensive personal training. Unless you can show me both the breakdown of time he spends running his empire and ALSO how much time specifically is needed to achieve and/or maintain an Incredible rank of Fighting, then your argument is completely without merit.

Please try again.


> which means it's impressive he even manages
> Remarkable rank but he's not Incredible rank
> where you find characters like Wolverine let
> alone nearing where people like Shang-Chi,
> Captain America, or Iron Fist are at.

I disagree. And, to back up my opinion, I've provided examples. You counter with arguments about time needed without any evidence to back up your point, making it purely speculative. And yes, while someone with a Remarkable Fighting could defeat someone with an Amazing, it would look more like luck (Karma) was coming into play rather than a greater degree of competence... which Kingpin DOES display and IS credited with having. You call him "normal human" and claim he simply cannot achieve higher than Remarkable Fighting while completely disregarding the fact that he has exceeded human norms with his Incredible Endurance (described as one rank above "Intensive exercise" at "Enhanced abilities") and his Body Armor of Poor which no "normal human" possesses based on their bulk.


> Also no, it's not Spider-man's Spider-Sense that's
> why he can easily handle Kingpin when he's serious
> about it, it's because Spider-Man's superior in
> ability in general.

Get my points straight before you argue them. I was comparing Kingpin handling multiple foes with a Remarkable Fighting to Spider-Man doing the same. In a flat out fight against 8 to 12 ninjas or other expert martial artists, Spider-Man outperforms Kingpin BECAUSE he has the spider-sense, the wall-crawling, the webshooters, and the ability to leap 40 feet in the air... so even if he pulls his punches to match Kingpin's strength (Excellent 20), he does better.


> During that final battle before OMD wiped that
> glorious event out of continuity Spider-man put
> Kingpin in his place as what he is: a man
> confusing his power as a mobster kingpin with
> REAL power and thinking he's something more
> than he is, and what he is in the end is a normal
> man.

Yes, very good points... but meaningless since I've already cited the example of an enraged Spider-Man not holding back would defeat Kingpin. He's stronger and faster and has danger sense and other powers that make him more than match WHEN he's so ticked off that he won't hold back. Hell, sufficiently motivated, Spider-Man was also able to take on & immobilize Iron Man, then rip his helmet off and crush it.


> One that's impressive as normal men goes
> (which is what Remarkable rank is if you
> actually look at it in context for what it is)
> but not truly up there which is where
> Incredible Fighting would be.

Remarkable rank Fighting is described as "Superior talent," not "impressive as normal men goes." Incredible rank is described as having "Superior talent with training," and as has been indicated clearly by both game and comics material, Kingin DOES have the training in addition to talent. He's definitely not at the pinnacle of human potential, but he's above "superior talent." Perhaps, instead of telling me to actually look this up, you can try doing the same and cite your reference material and include quoted text. Because telling me to look it up and I do and find something different than what you're presenting doesn't make me wrong or you right. It only shows that you're either being intentionally vague because your counterpoints don't stand up to scrutiny, or your just not reading the same stuff I am.

I think there was a Kingpin vs Red Skull in the 90's. I have it around here somewhere. It goes into quite a bit of depth of why Kingpin often beats better fighters. At the end of the fight Kingpin is triumphant, but remarks in great detail why the Red Skull was the better fighter. I will try to find it and add some of the more crucial images.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Unfortunately this is a case of fan bias,
> you're
> > seeing the character as better fighter than he
> > actually is and cherry-picking examples and
> > isolated cases and trying to present them as
> > examples of normal ability when they aren't.
>
> Everything is an isolated case until you stack
> them up next to each other. One example is a
> fluke. Two may just be dumb luck. Three, four,
> or more start showing a pattern. Unfortunately,
> there's not a lot of Kingpin fights to look to for
> regular examples of his abilities. However, if
> you can prove me wrong on that, I'd be happy to
> look at any evidence you have to share.

You don't have a pattern, you've a few isolated instances that you WANT to be a pattern to support your position. Kingpin's never been shown to be an overall Incredible rank fighter, he's a Remarkable rank fighter with some bonuses from combat training. You do not get to both say he's an Incredible rank fighter AND say he also gets the Martial Arts to add onto that while also being Incredible rank when the truth is he's Remarkable rank WITH Martial arts that raises his EFFECTIVE rank to Incredible.

> > Again, just because he won a fight against someone
> > with Amazing Fighting ability does NOT mean he's
> > an Amazing rank Fighter or even Incredible rank.
>
> It wasn't someone... it was two someones, one of
> whom is considered one of the world's greatest
> melee combatants.

Two someone's still doesn't make him Incredible rank, underdogs of lesser ability regularly win against better opponents in fiction almost as often in reality. He got lucky a few times, it happens. I'd no more accept that as reason to up his Fighting rank to Incredible than I'd accept Spider-man winning out over the Champion of the Universe means he must have Monstrous Fighting ability because he doesn't.

> > This isn't Amber Diceless RPG nor do the comics
> > run under their mechanics.
>
> No, the comics don't run the mechanics, but they
> do establish a standards by which character stats
> are determined. Some characters develop over
> time, others get left behind because they're not
> the main characters. Kingpin, a villain and
> mastermind, was established in the stats from the
> beginning of the game but has never grown or
> changed in the stats despite the comics expanding
> his backstory and growing his list of victories.

Because none of the expansion on him justifies him increasing any of his stats including Fighting it only better justifies how a guy who sits back and runs a massive criminal enterprise as the head man somehow still manages to be a formidable fighter of Remarkable ability and retains those Martial Arts skills instead of them atrophying due to sitting around running things all the time. Kingpin is not Bruce Wayne with a handwave to let him be both sitting around running a criminal empire all the time AND a nearly peak human in all abilities particularly Fighting.

> > Amazing Fighting can be beaten by someone
> > with lower ability even Excellent rank if luck
> > (and Karma) is with his opponent.
>
> And characters can grow beyond what their original
> stats were set at. I'm not arguing that Amazing
> can't be beaten by lower ranks; I'm stating that
> the examples --plural, as in more than a single,
> isolated incident-- provided demonstrate greater
> competency than his Fighting rank suggests.

You've several isolated incidents, none of which justifies Kingpin being an Incredible rank Fighter, they justify his Remarkable rank plus Martial Arts skills and his good fortune (i.e. karma) that's let him pull off victories he otherwise shouldn't have.

> > While the character is a physical powerhouse
> > compared to other regular humans he's not edging
> > into peak human potential when it comes to his
> > Fighting ability. He's focused into physical
> > power and durability and dishing out damage and
> > really just does not have time to get himself
> into
> > Incredible rank.
>
> Bzzzzt. Unacceptable argument. Please provide
> ANY evidence... ANY examples... that suggest
> Kingpin does not or has not had time to train
> himself to Incredible rank. Given his specific
> unusual physique, the shape he's in and that his
> bulk is all muscle, this is a man who trains a
> lot... and given that he is specifically described
> as gaining his exceptional durability (body armor,
> which is beyond "normal human" standards) from his
> fighting disciplines, it's not even a stretch to
> say his training is as combat oriented as
> weightlifting specific.

Well of course YOU don't want to accept it, it undercuts your efforts to claim Kingpin's a better fighter than he actually is. Also given you're the one claiming Kingpin's got all this free time to spend training constantly to be Incredible rank rather than Remarkable the burden falls on YOU to prove it, which you've failed to do so far. You've just a few fluke victories and some examples that better support that he's Remarkable rank with Martial Art talent enhancements to appear around Incredible rank. You don't get both, he can't both have Incredible Fighting and Martial Arts to boot, he's either Incredible Fighting and no Martial Arts talents or he's Remarkable rank and Martial Arts talents. Since we know he's got the talents then he cannot also have Incredible Fighting, he only has Remarkable.

> > He runs a criminal empire and most of his time
> > goes into that
>
> Again, show me where you are getting this lack of
> time. He's the head of the criminal underworld...
> which means he has enormous ability to delegate to
> minions. I'm not saying he doesn't go hands on
> when needed, or even how often "needed" might be;
> but your argument seems to expect X amount of
> devoted to running that empire which precludes
> time enough to maintain intensive personal
> training. Unless you can show me both the
> breakdown of time he spends running his empire and
> ALSO how much time specifically is needed to
> achieve and/or maintain an Incredible rank of
> Fighting, then your argument is completely without
> merit.
>
> Please try again.

No reason to bother continuing to try, since you'll continue to move the goalposts and otherwise ignore anything to the contrary that doesn't support your position. You didn't start this discussion with the intention to work out whether or not his rank is wrong, you already have the conclusion that he should be better ranked than he is and only wanted to hear people agree with you. Anyone disagreeing is rejected out of hand so since this isn't actually a discussion about his abilities there's no point continuing.

> > which means it's impressive he even manages
> > Remarkable rank but he's not Incredible rank
> > where you find characters like Wolverine let
> > alone nearing where people like Shang-Chi,
> > Captain America, or Iron Fist are at.
>
> I disagree. And, to back up my opinion, I've
> provided examples. You counter with arguments
> about time needed without any evidence to back up
> your point, making it purely speculative. And
> yes, while someone with a Remarkable Fighting
> could defeat someone with an Amazing, it would
> look more like luck (Karma) was coming into play
> rather than a greater degree of competence...
> which Kingpin DOES display and IS credited with
> having. You call him "normal human" and claim he
> simply cannot achieve higher than Remarkable
> Fighting while completely disregarding the fact
> that he has exceeded human norms with his
> Incredible Endurance (described as one rank above
> "Intensive exercise" at "Enhanced abilities") and
> his Body Armor of Poor which no "normal human"
> possesses based on their bulk.

Nothing speculative regarding the idea that you need a lot of time devoted to it to have and maintain an Incredible fighting rank. You see people like Captain America and Iron Fist constantly training to maintain their abilities because they require it, meanwhile you DON'T see Kingpin constantly training or engaging in the kind of fighting required to maintain an Incredible Fighting rank, you almost always see him engaged in dialogue and manipulating others to do his bidding. So you're the one tossing out highly speculative claims that Kingpin's somehow engaging in the kind of activity required to push him to Incredible level even though that's not what we see in the comics.

Also no, while he's definitely a Normal Human I never said he can't train to Incredible rank, I said he's simply not in the position to do so while maintaining active control over his empire because there's no way he can spend the kind of hours required every day to be Incredible rank AND run his empire. Even Mary Sue Batman can't do it and has people who run Wayne Enterprises for him for the most part.

> > During that final battle before OMD wiped that
> > glorious event out of continuity Spider-man put
> > Kingpin in his place as what he is: a man
> > confusing his power as a mobster kingpin with
> > REAL power and thinking he's something more
> > than he is, and what he is in the end is a
> normal
> > man.
>
> Yes, very good points... but meaningless since
> I've already cited the example of an enraged
> Spider-Man not holding back would defeat Kingpin.
> He's stronger and faster and has danger sense and
> other powers that make him more than match WHEN
> he's so ticked off that he won't hold back. Hell,
> sufficiently motivated, Spider-Man was also able
> to take on & immobilize Iron Man, then rip his
> helmet off and crush it.

Nothing meaningless about it, he clearly delineates how Kingpin isn't the powerhouse he's convinced himself he is and that he's still a normal human in the end.

> > One that's impressive as normal men goes
> > (which is what Remarkable rank is if you
> > actually look at it in context for what it is)
> > but not truly up there which is where
> > Incredible Fighting would be.
>
> Remarkable rank Fighting is described as "Superior
> talent," not "impressive as normal men goes."
> Incredible rank is described as having "Superior
> talent with training," and as has been indicated
> clearly by both game and comics material, Kingin
> DOES have the training in addition to talent.
> He's definitely not at the pinnacle of human
> potential, but he's above "superior talent."
> Perhaps, instead of telling me to actually look
> this up, you can try doing the same and cite your
> reference material and include quoted text.
> Because telling me to look it up and I do and find
> something different than what you're presenting
> doesn't make me wrong or you right. It only shows
> that you're either being intentionally vague
> because your counterpoints don't stand up to
> scrutiny, or your just not reading the same stuff
> I am.

No, Kingpin isn't above Superior Talent, and yes that's definitely impressive as Normal Men goes. The normal man if lucky has Good fighting ability, particularly experienced guys are at Excellent, and Remarkable is above that so definitely Impressive. Also as I've noted elsewhere Remarkable Fighting plus Martial Arts Talents gives him an EFFECTIVE and APPARENT Fighting ability of Incredible. It does NOT give him Incredible Fighting then toss on Martial Arts Talents too, that'd make him look to be Captain America level of ability and he's clearly not even close to that. This is a common problem with people when modeling, they want to give a character the highest rank possible PLUS the talents that make them appear to be at that rank so that now on the sheet they actually have superior ability to what we see in the comics. If you're truly interested in modeling him as he is in the comics then it's Remarkable Fighting Plus Martial Arts talents because that's what he is. He appears better than his base ability because he's got bonuses from his talents not because his base ability is that high.

In any case I've said my peace and don't intend to continue with this and repeating past fiascoes. You want him having abilities superior to what he actually has in the comics that's up to you but by the comics he's Remarkable Fighting Plus talents not Incredible Fighting plus talents. Maybe if they hadn't wiped out their last battle with OMD he could have been shown becoming a driven man training hard until he honestly had an Incredible Fighting ability to do a rematch and regain his 'street cred' but of course that'll never happen now.

The burden of proof works both ways. You have an opinion as I do... you need to support your own opinion as well, or it's meaningless. This isn't a court of law where I have to prove someone's guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt to see a conviction, where all you have to do is deny and cast aspersions on my opinions to shoot them down. If you want your disagreement taken seriously, then either back it up or at least admit that it's just your opinion.

And I, along with anyone else, do get to say whatever I want. I expressed it as my opinion that his stats were underrated. I've pointed out that I believe his abilities fall above human norms, that his fighting skills are both superior talent with training, and I've given examples to support it. ALL you have to say adds up to a big "Nuh-uh," and nothing more. You have provided ZERO valid argument for the insistence that his Fighting rank is no more than Remarkable with talents. You have flat out denied that he's even eligible for above Remarkable based on him being a "normal human" which is absolutely false. You CAN tell me whatever you like, but your opinions hold no weight without something to back them up.

I started this discussion with a premise that his rank is wrong, and suggest --with evidence-- that it should be bumped one column shift up. I would be happy to entertain dissenting opinions, but if you're going to discuss in such a closed-minded fashion where you present your opinion as fact with nothing to back it up, then prepare to have your opinions challenged. Maybe JOIN the discussion instead of talking at people and saying all the burden of proof lies with them to convince you... because you don't discuss. You state what you believe as if it were fact, and once your fact is established, there's no room for discussion with you. I'm sorry, but that's quite disingenuous of you.

KINGPIN

F - IN (40)
A - GD (10)
S - EX (20)
E - IN (40)
R - GD (10)
I - EX (20)
P - GD (10)

Health: 110
Karma: 40
Resources: IN (40)
Popularity: 0

KNOWN POWERS
Body Armor: PR (4) protection against physical damage through his fighting disciplines.

EQUIPMENT
Walking Stick: Remarkable material strength with a 3 shot laser that deals EX (20) energy damage at a range of 2 areas. It also contains 2 doses of Amazing intensity sleep gas which has a range of 1 area and causes a foe to sleep for 1-10 hours unless the Endurance FEAT is successful.

TALENTS
Business/Finance, Languages (English, Japanese), Leadership, Martial Arts (A, B, C, and E), Politics, Wrestling

CONTACTS
The Kingpin has Criminal Contacts and prides himself on knowing what is going on in his city, especially in the area of crime. He also has many Business/Finance contacts. His agents have infiltrated most businesses, law enforcement agencies, city government, and even the military.


Humans can not have incredible endurance. I'd downgrade the Kingpin to Remarkable Endurance. I'd also make his fighting Remarkable. What would I bump up? His Psyche to Excellent. The Kingpin has strong will power for sure.


New health = 90
New Karma = 50

The equipment, talents, and contacts are fine.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Humans can not have incredible endurance. I'd
> downgrade the Kingpin to Remarkable Endurance.
> I'd also make his fighting Remarkable. What
> would I bump up? His Psyche to Excellent. The
> Kingpin has strong will power for sure.


Hmm... Psyche is a good point. However, I'm going to reiterate my point that Kingpin is not a "normal human." No, he wasn't gifted with special powers from a freak accident, nor is there any evidence of being a mutant, and he's certainly not using technology to enhance himself. He's achieved mild superhuman status from his training (and/or is a freak of nature) which has granted him the physique he has. That certainly lends to the idea that he has stronger willpower than just one rank above normal.


Remarkable Endurance is the benchmark for maximum human Endurance, but so is Excellent Strength. Despite this, Ox of the Enforcers has a Remarkable Strength, and --like the Kingpin-- he has no special powers or origin that would explain that. They are exceptions to the normal rules for whatever reason, just like there are people in the real world who possess abilities that go beyond what one might expect is possible for humans (see Stan Lee's Superhumans from the History Channel for more examples of exceptional humans).

Hate to jump into this, but reason should be far higher shouldn't it?

Also wouldn't a higher reason get around the 'he's not smart enough to run an empire and undertake Olympic level training every day?

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hate to jump into this, but reason should be far
> higher shouldn't it?
>
> Also wouldn't a higher reason get around the 'he's
> not smart enough to run an empire and undertake
> Olympic level training every day?

You don't go bumping stats up because you want to justify other stats you base stats on what you actually see. If you don't see a Remarkable Reason you don't give a character a Remarkable Reason because you want an excuse to justify giving a character an Incredible Fighting rank that they aren't shown to have.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you don't see a Remarkable Reason you
> don't give a character a Remarkable Reason
> because you want an excuse to justify giving
> a character an Incredible Fighting rank that
> they aren't shown to have.


I've given ample evidence to support my opinion on the Fighting rank, and I've asked you for any evidence to support your's. I thought you said your peace and were done with this particular discussion.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NikMak Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hate to jump into this, but reason should be
> >far higher shouldn't it?
> >
> > also wouldn't a higher reason get around the he's
> > not smart enough to run an empire and undertake
> > Olympic level training every day?
>
> You don't go bumping stats up because you want to
> justify other stats you base stats on what you
> actually see. If you don't see a Remarkable
> Reason you don't give a character a Remarkable
> Reason because you want an excuse to justify
> giving a character an Incredible Fighting rank
> that they aren't shown to have

Firstly - you missed my point - shouldn't his reason be higher anyway? he is arguably one of the more successful criminal masterminds of the marvel universe, having carved out a power base from within the east coast gangs, taken on Hydra and the Maggia and not died, made a fortune and new syndicate in Japan when recovering from a defeat (twice) connives and plots to take over leadership of the Hand.

all that sounds like hes smarter than just Good; that makes his reason at least remarkable it seems to me. The only excuse for not making his intellect higher that I can see is that he doesnt make tech gadgets. Surely no one here is going to make the argument that he cant be smarter then Gd because he doesn't design his own advanced technical systems? Machiavelli and Clausewitz didn't invent techno gear either but no one doubts their intellect.

secondly - I suggest you try and refrain from laying down the law about what people can and cant do in an online forum debate about a table top RPGs; you will alienate fewer people that way IMO - sheesh! told you I was leery of getting in the middle of this

NikMak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NikMak Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Hate to jump into this, but reason should be
> > >far higher shouldn't it?
> > >
> > > also wouldn't a higher reason get around the
> > >he's not smart enough to run an empire and
>>> undertake Olympic level training every day?
> >
> > You don't go bumping stats up because you want
>> to justify other stats you base stats on what you
> > actually see. If you don't see a Remarkable
> > Reason you don't give a character a Remarkable
> > Reason because you want an excuse to justify
> > giving a character an Incredible Fighting rank
> > that they aren't shown to have
>
> Firstly - you missed my point - shouldn't his
> reason be higher anyway? he is arguably one of the
> more successful criminal masterminds of the marvel
> universe, having carved out a power base from
> within the east coast gangs, taken on Hydra and
> the Maggia and not died, made a fortune and new
> syndicate in Japan when recovering from a defeat
> (twice) connives and plots to take over
> leadership of the Hand.
>
> all that sounds like hes smarter than just Good;
> that makes his reason at least remarkable it seems
> to me. The only excuse for not making his
> intellect higher that I can see is that he doesnt
> make tech gadgets. Surely no one here is going to
> make the argument that he cant be smarter then Gd
> because he doesn't design his own advanced
> technical systems? Machiavelli and Clausewitz
> didn't invent techno gear either but no one doubts
> their intellect.

That's because of their Talents, while they have a base of Good in their particular fields of skill their effective Reason is much higher. So Kingpin while having a base of Good Reason (above average but not enough to qualify for what's basic to the average Scientist NPC) due to his talents has a Remarkable or even Incredible Reason due to the CS bonuses he gets for his talents in regards to running a criminal empire.

> secondly - I suggest you try and refrain from
> laying down the law about what people can and cant
> do in an online forum debate about a table top
> RPGs; you will alienate fewer people that way IMO
> - sheesh! told you I was leery of getting in the
> middle of this

Pointing out how you do character modeling isn't 'laying down the law' it's reminding people regarding the general rules for how you do it. You have to avoid your (general not specific 'your') tendency to want to give characters higher stats than they actually have when the stats in question are in part being based on looking at a character and seeing it as a combination of stats plus their talents. So when you see the average NPC scientist working on a warp drive or time travel he doesn't have an Amazing Reason plus a talent specific to one of those but more an Excellent or Remarkable Reason plus a talent that gives him an Effective Reason of Amazing. to be able to comprehend that particular field. So when you go 'wow he can to this he so deserves an Incredible rank in that stat!' you have to go 'wait doesn't he also have a Talent that makes him look better in that stat? So it's really Remarkable but his talent makes it look Incredible.'

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pointing out how you do character modeling isn't
> 'laying down the law' it's reminding people
> regarding the general rules for how you do it.
> You have to avoid your (general not specific
> 'your') tendency to want to give characters higher
> stats than they actually have when the stats in
> question are in part being based on looking at a
> character and seeing it as a combination of stats
> plus their talents. So when you see the average
> NPC scientist working on a warp drive or time
> travel he doesn't have an Amazing Reason plus a
> talent specific to one of those but more an
> Excellent or Remarkable Reason plus a talent that
> gives him an Effective Reason of Amazing. to be
> able to comprehend that particular field. So when
> you go 'wow he can to this he so deserves an
> Incredible rank in that stat!' you have to go
> 'wait doesn't he also have a Talent that makes him
> look better in that stat? So it's really
> Remarkable but his talent makes it look
> Incredible.'


Which means, then, that comparing him against Captain America and Punisher does not mean he's beating foes with Amazing rank, but rather handily defeating foes with Monstrous.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pointing out how you do character modeling
> isn't
> > 'laying down the law' it's reminding people
> > regarding the general rules for how you do it.
> > You have to avoid your (general not specific
> > 'your') tendency to want to give characters
> higher
> > stats than they actually have when the stats in
> > question are in part being based on looking at
> a
> > character and seeing it as a combination of
> stats
> > plus their talents. So when you see the
> average
> > NPC scientist working on a warp drive or time
> > travel he doesn't have an Amazing Reason plus a
> > talent specific to one of those but more an
> > Excellent or Remarkable Reason plus a talent
> that
> > gives him an Effective Reason of Amazing. to be
> > able to comprehend that particular field. So
> when
> > you go 'wow he can to this he so deserves an
> > Incredible rank in that stat!' you have to go
> > 'wait doesn't he also have a Talent that makes
> him
> > look better in that stat? So it's really
> > Remarkable but his talent makes it look
> > Incredible.'
>
>
> Which means, then, that comparing him against
> Captain America and Punisher does not mean he's
> beating foes with Amazing rank, but rather handily
> defeating foes with Monstrous.

Ive just realised. Cap' has Weapon specialist on his shield doesn't he? that means he fights on unearthly... hes even tougher than I thought!

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taarna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Humans can not have incredible endurance. I'd
> > downgrade the Kingpin to Remarkable Endurance.
> > I'd also make his fighting Remarkable. What
> > would I bump up? His Psyche to Excellent. The
> > Kingpin has strong will power for sure.
>
>
> Hmm... Psyche is a good point. However, I'm
> going to reiterate my point that Kingpin is not a
> "normal human." No, he wasn't gifted with special
> powers from a freak accident, nor is there any
> evidence of being a mutant, and he's certainly not
> using technology to enhance himself. He's
> achieved mild superhuman status from his training
> (and/or is a freak of nature) which has granted
> him the physique he has. That certainly lends to
> the idea that he has stronger willpower than just
> one rank above normal.
>
>
> Remarkable Endurance is the benchmark for maximum
> human Endurance, but so is Excellent Strength.
> Despite this, Ox of the Enforcers has a Remarkable
> Strength, and --like the Kingpin-- he has no
> special powers or origin that would explain that.
> They are exceptions to the normal rules for
> whatever reason, just like there are people in the
> real world who possess abilities that go beyond
> what one might expect is possible for humans (see
> Stan Lee's Superhumans from the History Channel
> for more examples of exceptional humans).


Very good post! The upper limit for humans FACE stats is Captain America, However; perhaps the human limit is a bit higher than Excellent for Strength as a shot of adeline at the time produces Remarkable level strength. Endurance can be harden over years of work past the Remarkable levels

I could live with 25 for strength and 35 for endurance for the Kingpin.

So in addition to my proposition that both his Fighting rank should be higher and his listed martial arts should be expanded to include E, we also have increasing his Reason and Psyche on the table.

While I wouldn't argue against a bump in Reason, I wouldn't set it as high as Remarkable. Spider-Man, who is a scientific genius, has Remarkable level. Kingpin has a combination of smarts and cunning, with the cunning not really being represented by stats. There are many a successful businessman who has achieved a good deal in building up their companies without being geniuses, because it does take more than smarts. In Kingpin's case, with his criminal empire, I'd say he has to be smart enough to manage his finances, be aware of legal issues (though not necessarily be a lawyer), and see the big picture of how all of his legitimate and criminal dealings fit together with the legitimate masking the criminal. Someone with Good ranked Reason and being a good leader could achieve this by having people to delegate certain things to that might be beyond his intelligence. For example, Kingpin always has someone else looking after his money rather than doing all of his accounting personally. Does he do it just because he can afford to, or because he needs help and keeps that help honest through intimidation?

As far as Psyche goes, I vaguely recall during the period where Daredevil was possessed and took over Hell's Kitchen, Kingpin enlisted the aid of a rather unusual ally in Ghost Rider... not by asking for his help, but rather by using ritual magic to compel it. A Good Psyche might be sufficient to start down the road to learning magic, but if you're stepping into magic for the first time and can bind the Spirit of Vengeance and keep your cool when it faces you down, then there's yet another argument for saying his Good rank might be underestimated.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So in addition to my proposition that both his
> Fighting rank should be higher and his listed
> martial arts should be expanded to include E, we
> also have increasing his Reason and Psyche on the
> table.
>
> While I wouldn't argue against a bump in Reason, I
> wouldn't set it as high as Remarkable.
> Spider-Man, who is a scientific genius, has
> Remarkable level. Kingpin has a combination of
> smarts and cunning, with the cunning not really
> being represented by stats. There are many a
> successful businessman who has achieved a good
> deal in building up their companies without being
> geniuses, because it does take more than smarts.
> In Kingpin's case, with his criminal empire, I'd
> say he has to be smart enough to manage his
> finances, be aware of legal issues (though not
> necessarily be a lawyer), and see the big picture
> of how all of his legitimate and criminal dealings
> fit together with the legitimate masking the
> criminal. Someone with Good ranked Reason and
> being a good leader could achieve this by having
> people to delegate certain things to that might be
> beyond his intelligence. For example, Kingpin
> always has someone else looking after his money
> rather than doing all of his accounting
> personally. Does he do it just because he can
> afford to, or because he needs help and keeps that
> help honest through intimidation?
>
> As far as Psyche goes, I vaguely recall during the
> period where Daredevil was possessed and took over
> Hell's Kitchen, Kingpin enlisted the aid of a
> rather unusual ally in Ghost Rider... not by
> asking for his help, but rather by using ritual
> magic to compel it. A Good Psyche might be
> sufficient to start down the road to learning
> magic, but if you're stepping into magic for the
> first time and can bind the Spirit of Vengeance
> and keep your cool when it faces you down, then
> there's yet another argument for saying his Good
> rank might be underestimated.

**edited for typos**

I see your point, but still feel his reason should be higher. I may be doing you and others a disservice here; but there seems to be a perception that only technological gifted characters can have a reason higher than X... that just doesn't make sense. Tzun Tsu, Julius Cesar, Satre, Motzart, Adam Smith, Ghandi could all be modeled as people with very high reasons but no technical/scientific/medical skills. I dont claim King Pin is quite in their league (he has been knocked down to many times) but the argument for an increase is a strong one, especially if you factor in a large amount of time spent in physical training as well (with the possible exception of Tzun Tsu, Kingpin would own all their assets in a cage fight!) . As I understand it, Kingpin has had almost no formal schooling, certainly none as a youngster; what he has achieved with that back ground is 'remarkable' in every sense IMO. I have made my case and will let it lie there

oh and i agree his psyche should be higher - he just does not give up, ever! (ask daredevil...)

I think the problem is that in the Judge's Book, Reason is defined by examples that exclusively refer to technology. Perhaps someone needs to come up with a better list of examples, unless Reason is explicitly meant to represent technological skill rather than overall Intelligence.

ah, maybe thats it

So I'm looking at stats for the Kingpin after watching the Daredevil series on Netflix and I'm wondering... Is Remarkable rank Fighting enough to account for the big man's abilities in the comics? He's also got Martial Arts A, B, and C as well as Wrestling. However, the Kingpin holds his own against superhuman foes like Spider-Man (unless he's just had Aunt May shot) and Captain America, as well as taking down the Punisher with no difficulties, not to mention being able to stand up to multiple ninjas and other martial artists.

Captain America has Amazing Fighting and what most people would consider superior combat skills and his shield. Kingpin overwhelmed him with speed and agility despite his bulk (but is Good Agility or Remarkable Fighting enough to justify catching Captain America off guard?) and a little bit of fighting dirty (he pulled the rug out from under him).

Quote
Thrudjelmer
Punisher has Amazing fighting and talents, and had knives. Kingpin disarmed him easily, knocked him around like a rag doll, and was prepared to finish him off but for the intervention of a third party.

Spider-Man has superior reflexes and his danger sense, as well as super strength (though he's usually pulling his punches unless really ticked off). Kingpin has only Excellent strength and Poor body armor as a result of his physical conditioning, yet he's somehow proven himself a credible threat to Spider-Man in the past... again, unless Spidey is riled up beyond his breaking point and not holding back, at which time he's even been able to take on Iron Man.

Seems to me like Kingpin --like most villains-- has been underrated for the sake of the heroes having to be tougher than their villains.


My thoughts for a slightly improved Kingpin would boost his Fighting rank to Incredible and maybe add Martial Arts E to his talents since he's supposedly got this surprising speed despite having only Good Agility and Excellent Intuition. Also, maybe Leadership since --as his Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry states, "The Kingpin is a criminal genius and a highly skilled planner and organizer. He employs numerous henchmen, scientists, and even superhumans, almost all of whom are loyal to him due to dedication, fear, or both"?

You make some good points here, and I agree with mostly everything including Kingpin having higher mental scores. However, I would give Kingpin the talents, Crime(he worked his way up. He didn't start at the top) Tumbling(the martial arts he has learned almost always include the ability to handle being thrown to the ground).

The biggest thing I'd give him is Excellent agility. Here's why. Kingpin not only moves fast for a man of his size, he moves fast period. I'd place a picture how even Captain America thought Kingpin was as fast as any opponent he had faced when he fought him, but Thrudjelmer has already done that. Fisk has much quicker reflexes than the Thing, Colossus, or Goliath/Erik Josten who all have Good agility. Spider-Man has been able to run circles around the Thing who has Incredible fighting skills, but he can't do that with Kingpin at least not for too long. Kingpin has always been able to catch up to Spider-Man and other agile super heroes. He didn't have to be exactly as agile as these heroes, but he'd have to have more than Good agility.

Yeah, I was iffy on mental stats as well. But he's definitely more physically capable than he was credited for back in the 80s when this game and his stats were published.

Kingpin might have more than Excellent strength. Here's a scene in Amazing Spider-Man issue 197 where Kingpin swings around a barbell that has 300-pound circular weights on it that are totaling at least 1800 pounds as if it was a baseball bat. That doesn't include the barbell itself. What's the total, 2,000 pounds or more? He even held it with one hand before he swung it. The writer was Marv Wolfman who had a great deal of credibility having been an editor as well. Here's the image.

Personally, I feel that the talents and fighting rank give Kingpin enough ability to go toe-to-toe with Cap and Spidey. However, I would argue that I think Kingpin demonstrates strength at a RM 30 level. The training scenes and the fact that he tends to do a crushing bear hug attack on people like Spider-Man, makes me think he's stronger. And I would also bump his Reason to Excellent. Excellent more accurately represents him. He is a criminal mastermind that rarely anyone out-thinks. Those would be my feelings on it.

P.S. The Daredevil series was so good. It's a shame they canceled it.