The Punisher
Frank Castle

Fighting - Remarkable [30] (Frank has better fighting than most soldiers or Mercenaries. Factoring that his being in Vietnam is still canon. even if one would consider him on par with Wolverine or Daredevil [which Frank himself has said that he isn't] age does catch up with everyone.)

Agility - Excellent (20) (Frank does not seem ready for the Olympics, even at the height of his career, feats of agility tended to significantly on the human spectrum of things.)

Strength - Good (10) (strength wise he seems on par with Daredevil, Wolverine, but not near the maximum of human potential)

Endurance - Incredible (40) (this is the category in which Frank truly excels. He simply will not quit until his body is at its absolute limits. This is the one area that Frank almost borders on superhuman.)

Reason - Excellent (20) (Planning and strategy are also watchwords of the Punisher's modus operandi. He also shown himself capable of modifying weapons without much trouble, even after the microchip days. Though not nearly as sophisticated of course.)

Intuition - Remarkable (30) (Frank's ability to track down criminals from the lowliest pimp to columbian druglords, is uncanny. While not bordering on a sort of gut feeling, Frank is certainly on par with some of the world's best detectives)

Psyche - Good (10) (Frank can resist ordinary mesmerism, but beyond that he's a normal guy)

Health - 100
Karma - 60
Resources - Gd (10)
Popularity - -20

Powers:
none

Equipment -
Guns - if played as an NPC, Frank has hidden armories and weapons cache's stored in at least 1 - 5 separate locations. He can have access to any handgun, semi-suto, or sutomatic weapon listed in the player's book. More exotic weapons can be made available on a successful resources feat [regardless of the cost of the weapon itself]. If played as a PC, Frank's resources should be considered Remarkable (30) for the purpose of obtaining guns for his one man war on crime.

Knives - Frank typically has at least one knife capable of inflicting GD (10) damage on his person at any given time

Costume - The Punisher's costume is made of a kevlar weave that is highly resiliant to damage. it provides him with GD (10) protection from physical attacks, and Pr (4) protection from energy attacks.

Explosives - Frank typically has access to a wide range of explosive devices and grenades. Such devices are capable of inflicting between Excellent (20) and Incredible (40) force damage.

Talents
Weapons Specialist - Guns
Sharp Weapons
Martial Arts A, B, C, E
Marksman
Law Enforcement
Pilot
Military
Crime
Detective/Espionage
Trance
First Aid
Demolitions
Survival

I like it although unfortunate we haven't seen some rejuvenating event for him while keeping his Vietnam era start relevant.

Didn't he have some sort of "returning from the dead as an angel" sort of thing happen to him? or is that no longer canon?

He did and while I don't think they've officially retconned it away they seem to be acting as if it never happened.

I like your write-up, although isn't Rem the maximum human E rank? Otherwise, great job, thoughtful and thorough.

While the game does list Remarkable as the maximum for Endurance like Capo says Punisher even for being an otherwise normal human seems to have the ability to tolerate attacks and damage with greater than what's seen as the maximum human Endurance. Considering some games include house rules for thinks like quirks could simply class Punisher's quirk being an above human Endurance.

I wouldn't power The Punisher down this much but to each his own.

I think the stats are fair, considering the Punisher's age - he's got to be in his 60's by now, for crying out loud

Whilst his base-line stats might have fallen, his talents are broader to reflect on his experience, and make him almost as formidable - if not more so - than he was in his prime, I feel


Soulassassin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't power The Punisher down this much but
> to each his own.

Who said he's in his 60's? Is Peter Parker in his 60's too?

His fighting was Amazing and is listed here on the site as Incredible for some reason. Now someone feels that it should be lower while Spiderman's should go up?

It just seems to me that some characters are held to "real world" standards while others are not despite being in the MSH universe.

Like I said it's different strokes for different folks but I wouldn't play The Punisher this way.

Let me elaborate on where I am coming from.

For Fighting, training and experience does not always equal a higher skill. While Batman may have studied every martial art under the sun and Captain America may have studied 3 it doesn't mean that Batman has better Fighting which was argued in another thread. And Frank's military training shouldn't be downplayed because it isn't a vast variety of martial arts.

While Batman may know 4 ways to hit you with the edge of his hand or 3 ways out of a particular hold, Frank Castle is likely just to break your neck or knock you out if you got too close in a fight.

What it comes down to is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. There are many styles of martial arts or styles of fighting but one is not better than any other when the chips are down.

The Punisher's military combat training in Close Quarters hand to hand coupled with his actual war time experience followed by years of vigilante justice in which he has had to go hand to hand numerous times (it's not all just machineguns you have to get your hands dirty too sometimes) more than equals any number of years in a dojo learning forms or kata. It is superior real life kill or be killed fighting. I think it equals Captain America or Batman's Fighting skill easily. It may not be as pretty or fancy but it gets the job done.

I would keep it as it originally was at Amazing but lowering below Incredible is blasphemous to me.

Agility is not just cartwheels and backflips it is also the stat that governs aiming for distance weapons. For that reason I would not lower The Punisher's Agility rating. He is an experienced and talented marksman.

Another reason is that Agility governs dodging. Like I said, Agility is not just backflips and walking tightropes, (again more than one way to skin a cat), dodging is evading distance attacks. Do you think Frank's years of combat have given him the knowledge and skill to evade enemy fire exceptionally well? You better believe he can dodge enemy fire. He may not be doing flips and carthwheels upside down to avoid gunshots like Nightcrawler or Spiderman but Frank doesn't get hit easily just the same. Incredible ability to evade fire and target distance weapons imo but in no way should it go lower than Remarkable.

Strength? Frank is a portrayed like a tank. He is a large man with exceptional strength. You don't think he can lift 800 pounds? Maybe, maybe not but I guarantee he hits like he does 20 points of damage in close. Maybe those upper limit guys on World's Strongest Man have 25 points of Strength for lifting? Also are we talking lifting or carrying over your head? I just don't see Steve Rogers as that much stronger given the way they've been portrayed over the years.

Punisher's participation in Vietnam is Canon. If he was 20 when Vietnam first started, by now he'd be in his 60's All other superheroes like Spider-Man opperate under Marvel's 'sliding time scale' and became active within the last 13 years.

And the Punisher is simply not the Maximum human fighting potential with training. he himself has said, in his own words, that people like Daredevil are better fighters than he is. I'd take frank's words over anyone else's.



Soulassassin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who said he's in his 60's? Is Peter Parker in his
> 60's too?
>
> His fighting was Amazing and is listed here on the
> site as Incredible for some reason. Now someone
> feels that it should be lower while Spiderman's
> should go up?
>
> It just seems to me that some characters are held
> to "real world" standards while others are not
> despite being in the MSH universe.
>
> Like I said it's different strokes for different
> folks but I wouldn't play The Punisher this way.

Soulassassin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me elaborate on where I am coming from.
>
> For Fighting, training and experience does not
> always equal a higher skill. While Batman may have
> studied every martial art under the sun and
> Captain America may have studied 3 it doesn't mean
> that Batman has better Fighting which was argued
> in another thread. And Frank's military training
> shouldn't be downplayed because it isn't a vast
> variety of martial arts.
>
> While Batman may know 4 ways to hit you with the
> edge of his hand or 3 ways out of a particular
> hold, Frank Castle is likely just to break your
> neck or knock you out if you got too close in a
> fight.
>
> What it comes down to is there is more than 1 way
> to skin a cat. There are many styles of martial
> arts or styles of fighting but one is not better
> than any other when the chips are down.
>
> The Punisher's military combat training in Close
> Quarters hand to hand coupled with his actual war
> time experience followed by years of vigilante
> justice in which he has had to go hand to hand
> numerous times (it's not all just machineguns you
> have to get your hands dirty too sometimes) more
> than equals any number of years in a dojo learning
> forms or kata. It is superior real life kill or be
> killed fighting. I think it equals Captain America
> or Batman's Fighting skill easily. It may not be
> as pretty or fancy but it gets the job done.

I answered this in my previous post, and as i said before, Frank admits he isn't even remotely the best fighter. He's stated in his own words that Wolverine and Daredevil are better fighters than he is. They're at IN. So if they're better, by virtue, Frank's base fighting should be RM. Also I think you overlook his Talents in the write up which would give him hand to hand bonuses.




> I would keep it as it originally was at Amazing
> but lowering below Incredible is blasphemous to
> me.
>
> Agility is not just cartwheels and backflips it is
> also the stat that governs aiming for distance
> weapons. For that reason I would not lower The
> Punisher's Agility rating. He is an experienced
> and talented marksman.
>
> Another reason is that Agility governs dodging.
> Like I said, Agility is not just backflips and
> walking tightropes, (again more than one way to
> skin a cat), dodging is evading distance attacks.
> Do you think Frank's years of combat have given
> him the knowledge and skill to evade enemy fire
> exceptionally well? You better believe he can
> dodge enemy fire. He may not be doing flips and
> carthwheels upside down to avoid gunshots like
> Nightcrawler or Spiderman but Frank doesn't get
> hit easily just the same. Incredible ability to
> evade fire and target distance weapons imo but in
> no way should it go lower than Remarkable.
>

Again you're missing the Talents. his agility as a base says he can't do crazy agility feats. but his weapons specialization gives him a + 2 CS for purposes as targeting and shooting which makes his effective agility for those purposes quite high.


> Strength? Frank is a portrayed like a tank. He is
> a large man with exceptional strength. You don't
> think he can lift 800 pounds? Maybe, maybe not but
> I guarantee he hits like he does 20 points of
> damage in close. Maybe those upper limit guys on
> World's Strongest Man have 25 points of Strength
> for lifting? Also are we talking lifting or
> carrying over your head? I just don't see Steve
> Rogers as that much stronger given the way they've
> been portrayed over the years.

Steve Rogers is stated as canon 3 times as strong as the average human being. Frank is somewhere below that. Again, in any number of DD vs. Punisher fights, the one who's characterized as having a more devestating punch is Murdoch, not Castle.

Not fair that Frank ages and the others don't given that they operate in the same universe and have had numerous crossovers. That just doesn't make sense.

Frank's words or not I stand by what I wrote on hand to hand combat. I always thought Daredevil's and Wolverine's fighting were too low at Incredible but that is another issue. Like I said not too pretty but in a kill or be killed fight Frank takes you out H2H.

As for Talents are you forgetting those other characters get Talents too? It's not like it makes up for depowering him.

DD and Captain America again. Rogers at 3x the average person barely puts him at Excellent. Frank is a tank always been portrayed as such. Large powerful man. I would put it at Ex but Gd is fine. My point is that the stats represent more than one aspect of an ability in the game so arguing one aspect of a stat down is not sufficient reason in my opinion for lowering it.

I also don't readily agree to arguments taken from what happens in the comics. As the fair fight thread and other threads have shown, writers get away with a lot depending on which character's book it is, what they think makes for good action, what they think is good for the story, and lots of creative license (Deadpool beating Taskmaster at all let alone while cuffed, Anyone beating Taskmaster hand to hand, Daredevil dropping Punisher in a couple of hits, Deadpool taking Wolverine out in 2 hits, etc). All of that really f***s up the game that we are talking about here where we try to be objective with stats and what not.

The game is supposed to reflect the comics, not the other way around.

And yes, a stat reflects multiple aspects of ability. That said, the base stat is meant to reflect a composite of those attributes that are covered by a single stat. if Castle is great at ranged attacks and sucks at gymnastics, then his base state should reflect both of those aspects with talents showing that he specializes in a certain area which modifes said stat in certain areas.



Soulassassin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not fair that Frank ages and the others don't
> given that they operate in the same universe and
> have had numerous crossovers. That just doesn't
> make sense.
>
> Frank's words or not I stand by what I wrote on
> hand to hand combat. I always thought Daredevil's
> and Wolverine's fighting were too low at
> Incredible but that is another issue. Like I said
> not too pretty but in a kill or be killed fight
> Frank takes you out H2H.
>
> As for Talents are you forgetting those other
> characters get Talents too? It's not like it makes
> up for depowering him.
>
> DD and Captain America again. Rogers at 3x the
> average person barely puts him at Excellent. Frank
> is a tank always been portrayed as such. Large
> powerful man. I would put it at Ex but Gd is fine.
> My point is that the stats represent more than one
> aspect of an ability in the game so arguing one
> aspect of a stat down is not sufficient reason in
> my opinion for lowering it.
>
> I also don't readily agree to arguments taken from
> what happens in the comics. As the fair fight
> thread and other threads have shown, writers get
> away with a lot depending on which character's
> book it is, what they think makes for good action,
> what they think is good for the story, and lots of
> creative license (Deadpool beating Taskmaster at
> all let alone while cuffed, Anyone beating
> Taskmaster hand to hand, Daredevil dropping
> Punisher in a couple of hits, Deadpool taking
> Wolverine out in 2 hits, etc). All of that really
> f***s up the game that we are talking about here
> where we try to be objective with stats and what
> not.

Well we agree on the Stats but disagree on what they should be. Frank is not walking tightropes but he is skilled at taking cover and targeting. You think it should be lower and I think it should be higher.

The game is supposed to reflect the comics yeah but I was making the point about creative license taking things too far in the comics therefore getting away from an objective view that the game has. The comics are not objective. If you want to reflect the comics then there should be a game mechanic called "Writer's Side" where at the beginning of any game we determine who is the main character or who's book we are in and they have to win no matter what by the end of the campaign.

If I were reflecting the books MORE and not less than

Captain America
F-Mn
A-Amaz
S-Rem
E-Inc

Spiderman
F-Amaz
A-UN
S-Inc
E-Am

Deadpool
F-Mn
A-Am
S-Ex
E-Inc

Furthermore anyone fighting Deadpool gets -2CS due to his jabber talking and unpredictable moves

Wolverine
F-Amaz
A- Inc
S- Ex
E- Amaz

Health doubles in battle unless fighting Deadpool

Punisher

Your stats above when not in his own book

Daredevil
F-Amaz
A-Amaz
S-Ex
E-Inc

Drops to regular levels when not in his own book


See what I mean?

If your stats reflect a real Punisher to you then fine it's your choice but I can't see dropping Punisher's abilities that low.

I dig what you're saying. By all means I don't think anyone should feel beholden to playing with my version of the Punisher. If you think Castle is tougher, stronger, faster, go for it. Personally in my game, i've given Noh Varr the Nega Bands, just cause I dig on that concept.

As far as the decisions I've made when statting Castle, I did this mostly off of the Garth Ennis run as well as a bit of War Journal by Fraction, and finally, taking into context Castle's tussles with super powered types like Spidey, Wolvie, and DD. But one of the things I like best about Punisher is his ability to mess with and jack up super humans while being a regular guy with tactics and ruthlessness. Statting him out as superhuman takes away from the flavor and themes of the Punisher. Besides which, if i read in one of Castle's own narration captions in his own title that he has to be careful of tussling with DD because DD is better at it, which is a good thing that he decided to hide a high frequency sonic emitter to cheat his way to victory, i'm gonna take castle at his word and stat him as a less skilled fighter than DD. Also, if I start statting Punisher as superhuman, then his fights with regular joes like Jigsaw become cakewalks unless i jack up Jigsaw's stats too. Then it's all a wash since everyone across the board is getting stat increases. might as just reset to what i was using previosuly, so at the very least not every roll is at minimum a green success.





Soulassassin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well we agree on the Stats but disagree on what
> they should be. Frank is not walking tightropes
> but he is skilled at taking cover and targeting.
> You think it should be lower and I think it should
> be higher.
>
> The game is supposed to reflect the comics yeah
> but I was making the point about creative license
> taking things too far in the comics therefore
> getting away from an objective view that the game
> has. The comics are not objective. If you want to
> reflect the comics then there should be a game
> mechanic called "Writer's Side" where at the
> beginning of any game we determine who is the main
> character or who's book we are in and they have to
> win no matter what by the end of the campaign.
>
> If I were reflecting the books MORE and not less
> than
>
> Captain America
> F-Mn
> A-Amaz
> S-Rem
> E-Inc
>
> Spiderman
> F-Amaz
> A-UN
> S-Inc
> E-Am
>
> Deadpool
> F-Mn
> A-Am
> S-Ex
> E-Inc
>
> Furthermore anyone fighting Deadpool gets -2CS due
> to his jabber talking and unpredictable moves
>
> Wolverine
> F-Amaz
> A- Inc
> S- Ex
> E- Amaz
>
> Health doubles in battle unless fighting Deadpool
>
> Punisher
>
> Your stats above when not in his own book
>
> Daredevil
> F-Amaz
> A-Amaz
> S-Ex
> E-Inc
>
> Drops to regular levels when not in his own book
>
>
> See what I mean?
>
> If your stats reflect a real Punisher to you then
> fine it's your choice but I can't see dropping
> Punisher's abilities that low.

I understand. Power creep can be a pain in a campaign.

Castle did bullseye spiderman acrobating around on top of a building- parker would be completely dead but Punisher was using mercy bullets.

Also- what people or Marvel call "Canon" history seems to change. Green Arrow has a particular comic book run where they aged him 1 month to 1 month real time. and when that ended he went back to not being tool old to lose combat skill.

Stark was also in Vietnam as Marvel canon at the same time FAN-4 was around and they later changed this.

in the 90's ( many people forget this but it was a good idea ) they slightly altered Stark's Vietnam ORIGIN to a South -East Asia origin.

now i hear it is Afganistan or something. but mentioning a South east asia war it keeps the origin close to intact without tying him to a Time frame he ages in.

Castle will eventually ( perhaps without being Explicitly told ) go back to being just an ex-war time vet in that ageless 30's birthday.

After all- as someone said- It would be unfair to age one MARVEL character and not age the others the 1 to 13 max. age-=time number.

I don't think Marvel cares if it's 'fair' one character ages and another doesn't. The problem with Punisher /nopt/ being in Nam is 2 things. A comic called 'The 'Nam' and another called 'Punisher: War Journal'. Castle makes /multiple/ appearances throughout his existence [70's, 80's, 90's, and now] in Vietnam, and it still gets mentioned to this day. Too many times is it explicitly stated he fought there. Stark's being in Nam doesn't ever really come up after the initial story arc in Tales of Suspense. neither does Richards and Grimm being war buddies in WW2


ajax plunkett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Castle did bullseye spiderman acrobating around on
> top of a building- parker would be completely dead
> but Punisher was using mercy bullets.
>
> Also- what people or Marvel call "Canon" history
> seems to change. Green Arrow has a particular
> comic book run where they aged him 1 month to 1
> month real time. and when that ended he went back
> to not being tool old to lose combat skill.
>
> Stark was also in Vietnam as Marvel canon at the
> same time FAN-4 was around and they later changed
> this.
>
> in the 90's ( many people forget this but it was a
> good idea ) they slightly altered Stark's Vietnam
> ORIGIN to a South -East Asia origin.
>
> now i hear it is Afganistan or something. but
> mentioning a South east asia war it keeps the
> origin close to intact without tying him to a Time
> frame he ages in.
>
> Castle will eventually ( perhaps without being
> Explicitly told ) go back to being just an ex-war
> time vet in that ageless 30's birthday.
>
> After all- as someone said- It would be unfair to
> age one MARVEL character and not age the others
> the 1 to 13 max. age-=time number.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He did and while I don't think they've officially
> retconned it away they seem to be acting as if it
> never happened.

It was mentioned in the first series following his return to mortal stature, so it is still considered cannon, but Frank being Frank ha left that chapter of his life behind and has chosen not to reflect on it as it bears no relevance to his continued war against mortal evil. Also while it was never said that he returned to humanity rejuvented Id agrue that that is a likely senario given the man's age. It helps explain how a guy without any super powers just keeps going.

Also Cappo, nice write up!

Mr Happy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He did and while I don't think they've
> officially
> > retconned it away they seem to be acting as if
> it
> > never happened.
>
> It was mentioned in the first series following his
> return to mortal stature, so it is still
> considered cannon, but Frank being Frank ha left
> that chapter of his life behind and has chosen not
> to reflect on it as it bears no relevance to his
> continued war against mortal evil. Also while it
> was never said that he returned to humanity
> rejuvented Id agrue that that is a likely senario
> given the man's age. It helps explain how a guy
> without any super powers just keeps going.
>
> Also Cappo, nice write up!

I'm all for the return helping to keep his origins during the Vietnam-era without having to radically modify the character (much like Nick Fury's kept as effectively normal human and has origins even older than Castle so his start remains during WWII). I mean if Dean Winchester in Supernatural can get ripped from hell and given a new body purged of all his scars and injuries over the years by an angel Frank certainly deserves a break like that.

I agree that Castle should keep his Vietnam origin with some help in his physical stats ( thru whatever means possible )

but Nick Fury has reduced aging power thru his having the infinity formula in his system. I think some other members of the WW2 group The Howling Commando's have the same reduced aging formula.- or at least they did once.

Yeah, old Frank will have to get a retcon pretty soon if we are to keep the Vietnam origin.

I understand your intentions, but the low fighting ability and the enhanced endurance bugs me. Then again, I always found Hawkeye's Good fighting ability to be low as well, so I changed it to Remarkable. I don't think I'd give the Punisher a fighting lower than Incredible, but that's just me.

Why not give Frank a skill that gives him +1CS to Endurance feats? I'm a stickler for base stat rules, so I apologize. I won't give ANY playable character a Shift level base stat, for instance.

Well, as I mentioned above, I give Frank a Remarkable fighting because he's constantly saying how hand-to-hand he can't keep pace with Daredevil or Wolverine. Because of that, i take Frank at his word and give him stats accordingly.

As far as the +1cs endurance, that's an interesting option, though I look through the book and there aren't any talents that really signify a stat that gives a bonus like that in most situations. Reading through a lot of recent Punisher comics, even at his age, he endures punishment that no normal person could handle. And that's why I went with the high base.


Mopad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, old Frank will have to get a retcon pretty
> soon if we are to keep the Vietnam origin.
>
> I understand your intentions, but the low fighting
> ability and the enhanced endurance bugs me.
> Then again, I always found Hawkeye's Good fighting
> ability to be low as well, so I changed it to
> Remarkable. I don't think I'd give the Punisher a
> fighting lower than Incredible, but that's just
> me.
>
> Why not give Frank a skill that gives him +1CS to
> Endurance feats? I'm a stickler for base stat
> rules, so I apologize. I won't give ANY playable
> character a Shift level base stat, for instance.

In a way though, Castle has earned his Inc-40 fighting comparitivly, next to many in the profile section. and just because he says he cant compete vs. logan or daredevil does not mean that is a fighting rank difference but perhaps agility and other powers they have that he doesnt.

In addition, there could simply be a difference between Incredible (36) and Incredible (45).

Well one could say that Frank had Incredible fighting at one point or another, but I mean let's be realistic here, the guy has got to be in his 60's. So taking that into consideration, he's probably lost a step or two. TLD you make a strong point as it pertains to the spectrum of Incredible, but I tend to work with base rank numbers when I do character modelling, and with his talents, Frank /does/ get a boost to Incredible hand to hand.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TLD you make a strong point as it pertains to the spectrum of
> Incredible, but I tend to work with base rank
> numbers when I do character modelling, and with
> his talents, Frank /does/ get a boost to
> Incredible hand to hand.

I'm the exact opposite, mostly because I like to have it mapped out for me who is truly stronger, faster, more durable, etcetera, in my campaign. Like for example, I generally stat Hercules' base Strength score higher than Thor's, since he's a specialist in Strength, but they are both in the Unearthly range, assuming of of course Thor isn't augmenting his base Strength score in some way.

As for the Talent thing, yeah, I agree that there needs to be a clear separation between what a character's base stat is, and what he gains from Talents, or even a Power for that matter. In my opinion, Primary Abilities should represent what the character's stats are without any bonuses from his/her Talents or Power set.

So that I don't start an argument here, let me say that this is just how I handle it in my home game, and I'm in no way suggesting everyone agree with me.

As I understand it, Frank Castle was ALREADY someone you didn't want pissed off at you before the mob ventilated his family.

Wasn't he a Green Beret / Special Forces instructor stateside after his 3 tours in Vietnam?

Something like that ::nods::


Dead Sidekick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I understand it, Frank Castle was ALREADY
> someone you didn't want pissed off at you before
> the mob ventilated his family.
>
> Wasn't he a Green Beret / Special Forces
> instructor stateside after his 3 tours in Vietnam?