You have him listed at max human FASE, with some pretty high RIP. He is human, after all, and being Batman is not his only gig.

Cap has max physical human stats due to a serum. Not by being Arnold, Mary-Lou Retton, Lance Armstrong and Bruce Lee wrapped up into one person. I know that logic should not interfere with comic book heroes, but this to me, is kinda pushing it. I'm going to dissect his stats, and I'd like some input on it.

F. Am. Max human ability. Sure, he's been trained in martial arts, but he hasn't devoted his life to it. In seems more realistic here.
A. In. People train since childhood to become an Olympic gymnast. Sure, he's agile. Give him a Rm.
S. Ex. You ever watch the strong man challenges on TV? These guys have Ex strength, not Bruce Wayne. Gd. Here.
E.Rm. This one is plausable. I'd give him an Ex though, because he has a life outside of being Batman.
R. In. Non-Terran tech? When? Where? Rm is pushing it. Ex + talents sounds better to me.
I. In. Maybe. An experienced police detective would have a Rm. Let's go with that.
P. Am. Where did this one come from? Ex = some XP with mental control/mystic forces.

Flame away.

No flames here. I'm in agreement with all of that. But because of who he is, his stats get exaggerated a tad.

Good points all around.

seems more like dardevil now just with more talents and gadets, well and not being blind and all

I'm in full agreement with almost everything you've said (I hate it when people overestimate Batman's abilities. "Batman could so take Galactus"... ugh) except for Intuition. He really is supposed to be the world's greatest detective. Even an Amazing Intuition I wouldn't argue too much against.

Overall i would agree, except in a few areas. Fighting as AM is legit. Batman is one of the best hand to hand fighters in the DCU as canon. he also fought cap to a standstill hand to hand.

Endurence, by virtue of the things he's endured and persevered over as Batman I think the RM endurance has been well documented.

Reason - i think he's definitely demonstrated RM reason with talents du-jour. I mean he created Brother Eye.

Intuition - again one of the best detectives in the DCU as canon.

A few points:

First, you assume that the F stat is strictly a skill, which not everyone agrees with. TankerAce is one of the most articulate advocate of the F stat as a representative "amalgam" stat that takes into account every ASERIP stat as well as skill.

Second, I would be the last person to argue against "cranking down" heroes, but you'd have to crank them down across the board. If Batman's F is Incr, so is Cap's (assuming F as a skill, which you seem to, implicitly). Daredevils would then be Rem, and so on.

I agree with you about S; I think just about every character nowadays is getting a S boost, for whatever reason.

Agility as a stat also encompasses a lot more than just Olympic-style gymnastics, and acts as the basis for throwing weapons skills, among others; Batman almost always hits what he aims his batarangs at, for example, so Incr might be more accurate.

I think there is also a problem with being a little too "real-world" in trying to assess the "average" superhero. The average "normal" superhero routinely performs FEATS of Agility, Fighting, Strength, Endurance, and so on that are way way above the human norm, and are quite probably superhuman. Comparing Batman to an ordinary detective puts him back in mortal range, which would make the idea of someone dressing up in a costume to fight a bunch of guys with guns pretty pathetic.

At that point, what is the purpose of playing a superhero game at all? I mean, ordinary superheroes with no powers are like the kung fu stars in HK movies, or anime heroes, and aren't bound by normal rules of physics and so on. If they were, there would really be no superheroes unless they had superpowers, which would get pretty boring after awhile.

It could also be that you may differ from some players and judges as to what exactly is the proper relationship between stats and skills. That's a subject a lot of us have to agree to disagree about.

Still, thoughtful comments, and very brave of you to put them up for scrutiny (and flames) from fans.

Hmmm, a point to consider is that Batman's targeting success with his Batarangs and swingline are really augmented by his being a Weapon Specialist with them, rather than because his Agility rivals that of an olympic gymnest. He's almost never shown making use of anything else as a thrown weapon or engaging in feats of that level of Agility in the comics he gets by on his talents to look to be the higher level.

While he's the DCU's greatest detective or at least one of them (Ralph Digby having been ranked up in that category on occasion as well) it was the Blue Beetle that figured out Maxwell Lord's plans and not Batman, so there are things that get passed him so probably isn't running an Amazing Intuition, Incredible at best and likely more in the Remarkable Range with a 2CS bonus to his Detective/Espionage skill rather than 1CS.

But Batman has been able to show that his agility is able to keep him solvent against foes who are supernaturally agile, such as the Man Bat. I think this could be due to numerous talents pushing the bat to the IN level, but it's not like he hasn't demonstrated feats of agility beyond those of your typical athlete.

As for Intuition, let's not forget that Jason Todd was gallivanting around as the Red Hood while Max lord was doing he little bits of bad. So the Red Hood could have effectively removed the Dark Knight from play as well as Elongated man's wife getting taken out so there are 2 of the DCU's best detectives removed from the board. nothing against blue beetle, but I think lord was using ruses and gambits to keep his agenda obfuscated.

An interesting exercise, one I've done myself in several games, is to play a character who is a reasonable human-maximum norm, arm him with modern (no mystic or hyper-tech) weapons and protection, and send him into a superhero campaign. I did this with Soldier, whose stats were, I believe (from memory):

F: 20 (Olympic-level, the highest score most humans can aspire to)
A: 15 (Just below Olympic-level gymnast, very agile on an obstacle course)
S: 14 (As strong as it is reasonably possible for a human gym rat to be)
E: 20 (Triathlete level, probably)
R: 14 (Bright, not a brainiac)
I: 30 (Very well-trained)
P: 30 (Very strong-willed and disciplined)
Health: 69
K: 74

Compare this to an average guy (all Typ stats, 24 health) or even thugs (some Gd stats, 32 health or thereabouts) and Soldier is a bad-a$$, probably equivalent to your average movie action-hero.

Hard to make him last throughout a campaign. I armed him like the Punisher, too, and still had some trouble keeping him conscious and alive. Kind of a neat exercise in perspective and relativity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2008 01:34AM by civet5285.

F. The Punisher originally had an Am rank also. I see it was dumbed down to In here, and I totally agree. (I wouldn't even argue with a Rm, but that's another topic.) There is not a huge difference between In and Am. But Am is max human potential. I just think there should be a pretty good reason giving a normal human a max rank other than saying "He's Batman!" As someone said, he fought Cap to a stand still. Again, not much difference between In and Am.

On paper, though, how could the Batman stand a chance? No doo-hinkies, just straight up fisticuffs. Steve Rogers is/was a mutagenically enhanced person, with training by the US government that would probably make the Navy SEALS look like a bunch of school girls. That, my friend, deserves an Am rank. Batman vs Cap?.... Give me a break.

Wolverine has an In rank also. Even with out his adamantium skeleton and claws, I could see him whooping Mr. Wayne like a Red-headed step-child. I hate that saying. First of all, I have reddish hair, and my mother remarried...

A. As someone else already stated, he would get a nice bonus due to weapon spec. Daredevil has an In, but he also has enhanced senses. I wouldn't exactly call him a normal human either. Calling Daredevil a human, is just like calling Taskmaster human. I know there is some debate there...

(Off topic.) How would you consider Hawkeyes Rm eyesight?


The judges book states that walking a tightrope is a Rm feat. What more do you want?

S. I guess we can all agree that he is no Mr. Olympia. What a relief...

E. I guess this narrrows down to what you would call "intensive exercise." In my opinion, it's guys like Lance Armstrong who devote themselves to a certain "activity/sport/whatever you want to call it." I'm just saying. He has a life outside of being Batman, and I adjusted accordingly. By day, he is a play-boy billionaire, not a triathlon competitor. Sure, he's in great health, but could he chase down and tackle Devin Hester?

R. Ex = Modify modern tech. Mr. Wayne has many talents that could boost him to a Rm. I would see nothing wrong with giving him a base Rm. I only said it was pushing it. I didn't say it was impossible. I may be wrong, but isn't The Beast considered to be a genious in some fields? He has an Ex.

I. In is not a far reach at all. It's entirely possible. As I said, it's a maybe. I'm just saying a Rm is more plausible. Again, there is not much of a difference between two ranks.

I (laugh all you want) created Adrian Monk as a PC. I gave him a Rm. But, I gave him the ultimate skill: Detective. As listed in the players book.

P. Again, I'm gald to see no bickering here.

Perhaps I'm too hung up on the old TV series with Adam West? I don't know...

I'm not trying to bash anyone. I know it's just a game. As I stated in my first post "I know that logic should not interfere with comic book heroes." This is just my personal rendition.

or we could just give batman the super soilder serum and call it a day

Batman and Captain America have a lot in common if you think about it. (More so than the Punisher) This is in regards to Fighting only here.

Both Captain America and Batman have had a long long long comic book history of battle. Capt during the great wars but he was frozen for a good period. While Batman fights crime darn near every night since taking on the cowl. In my book there would be no one better at hand to hand combat then these two for maximum human fighting ability. Now for Punisher.. this johnny come lately does not have near the time invested in combat as the later fellas.. he didn't start his mastery of combat until his family died. I mean this to say that, that was the trigger that started him on his battle against the world. Punisher battles at a Remarkable level in my book.. could he take on Bruce Lee? No way.. Bruce Lee was an Incredible fighter to watch.. But did Bruce even fight in true combat as much as the well seasoned Batman or Cap? something to think about.

My vote:

Batman Am (50) fighting (Constant warefare(thus learning), good focus, and talent)
Cap the same

Bruce Lee In (40) fighting (Total focused skill and talent)

Punisher Rem (30) fighting (Raw agression and some talent)

I believe Daredevil is fastly over stated with Incredible... he will and most certainly is not as seasoned as either Batman or Cap. I don't think he could take Bruce Lee either skillwise.. the books state his father was a boxer and his old man trained him. After that he learned his fighting by doing and some help from stick. In (40) max.. Remarkable more likely..

Good series focus~ Enjoyed the discussion

This is something in the archives, but bruce lee had plenty of his fair share of real combat and competed in martial arts as well. Something to note also, the way he fought on camera is not the way Bruce fought in real scenarios/

Daredevil gets inc-40 for being able to fight a roomful of ninja Hand and doing very well.

I feel Bat-Man is correct at Peak Human FASERIP… Especially in Game Terms…


F: AM:50 Due to his full aperture for combat while in uniform with tools, weapons, and talents…. As Bruce Wayne or Strictly Hand to Hand he would only be about EX:20 to RM:30, so make it IM:25…. As Bat-Man he is Borderline Psychotic giving him a few extra points to reach the Full Monte AM:50….. Plus, I’ve always GMed the “Fighting” Rank as a ‘TOTAL’ Combat ability. Hand to Hand is only about 20% of that ‘TOTAL’ Combat ability.

A: IN:40 seems correct while in uniform…. Being that the whole Bat-Man persona gives Bruce so many Plus Shifts as well as him being more risky and daring….. As Bruce I’d give him EX:20 or IM:25…. Most of his Agility (30 Points) is suited around hand / eye coordination, precision timing, and Talents rather than brute acrobatics and athleticism… This leaves 10 points (GD:10) for his athleticism.

S: GD:10 seems legit for strength, but once again he gets some Physical and Psychological leverage while in uniform…. So probably EC:15 at best…. But he FEAT Rolls on EX:20…

E: RM:30 seems correct… but 20 Points of his total 30 are more geared for Brute Toughness, leaving him GD:10 Endurance for Cardo and Physical Exertion…. With his uniform it goes to FN:35.

R: IN:40…. I’d still rate this at IN:40 for ‘Bat-Man’ due to him being able radio in for various Info and Data. With out the suit and equipment Bruce probably has EX:20…. And most of that is geared around ‘Making $$$$$$$ and the Lay of Gothem City’…. As Bat-Man his Psychology changes making him have IN:40 Reasoning….

I: IN:40….. Same thing as his Reasoning, With the full Uniform and Load pack he is sort of ‘euphoric’ and uses all his senses and awareness more acutely… As Bruce this would probably be EX:20 to IN:25….

P: AM:50….. This is where Bat-Man and Bruce Truly excel…. He has been able to successfully merge total Psychosis into a vigilant form of Law Enforcement as well as maintain a Multibillion Corporation in a City that will Drive any person insane….. Dressed as Bat-Man Bruce fully embraces the Persona and is able to utilize his Karma and Equipment to give him the Peak Human edge….



Also, being as Wealthy as he is and Wayne Enterprises being so versatile on various developments, Bruce Wayne probably does secretly take some form of Health Supplements or ‘Steroids’ nearly equal to Cap’n’America’s Stuff…… Just Alfred gives it to him without Bruce knowing……

“Your Daily Soup, Sir???”

Shang Chi has Amazing Fighting and his creators have outright stated they were modeling him after Bruce Lee to capitalize on the martial arts craze of the 70's.


G.A.W. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daredevil gets inc-40 for being able to fight a
> roomful of ninja Hand and doing very well.

If Batman just showed up out of nowhere from some shadow looking at me like i just stole his wallet, there would be no doubt in my mind that im done for. The same would go for anyone facing Batman. Its a psychological advantage he has over his opponents. Maybe that just makes them worse fighters when they are facing him and he isn't really "that" good.. I don't think so.
FIGHTING: Amazing 50 -because he fights for real and he doesn't kill<thats a biggie
AGILITY: Incredible 40 -just because he doesn't do summersaults and gay flips doesn't mean he can't. Plus he's wearing a suit full of gadgets. Not to mention the "iron-cross" doesn't put peoples lights out.
STRENGTH: Excellent 20 -thats not so unreasonable considering his conditioning and bodytype. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't 29 still in the Excellent range in game terms? Still leaving room for those power lifting meat heads who can bench 1000pounds
ENDURANCE: Remarkable 30 -even Lance Armstrong would get exhausted wearing a super hero costume and jumping off of buildings and fighting for 3mins straight in one comic book
REASON: Remarkable 30 -This is tied in with his general psyche imo. he has to be the best at what he does in all things and that means being smarter than his enemies. And has anyone ever seen him read the manual for any of his gadgets?
INTUITION: Incredible 40- Batman doesn't miss much going on around him let alone in the world.. the world
PSYCHE: Amazing 50- Batman bends people to his will not the other way around. enough said. Now go watch The Dark Knight if you haven't yet, it was friggin awesome!

Fighting: AM - Batman is one of the best martial artists in the DCU (this is indeed canon), and has even fought Cap to a standstill on numerous occastions (canon as well, I got references if you need them). The fighting is warranted.

Agility: RM - While his athletic skills are still top notch, he's always been more of a bruiser than a finesse guy IMO. His uncanny skill with batarangs is best left to Weapon Specialist talents.

Strength: EX - Batman is exceptionally strong, and I always give my Cap RM after fighting it for so long. Cap is stronger than Batman, but Bat's is still quite strong, as befitting his rigorous routine and training. This to is all canon.

Endurance: RM - This shouldn't need any explanation. Bat's is in top physical condition.

Reason: RM - Highly intelligent, able to understand and adapt other technology if given time. Combine this with a myriad of talents to signify all of his knowhow. He's one of the greatest minds in the DCU for a reason.

Intuition: IN+ - I'd have no problem putting this at AM but was trying to be nice. They don't call him the worlds greatest detective for nothing.

Psyche: RM+ - While Bat's certainly has tremendous willpower, he has fallen under the control of villains on rare occasion. I'd even take it up to IN, but no higher. He also has the Resist Mesmerism talent.


There you have it. The Gospel according to the Spyder. Good Day.


Skarlett da Batty Spyder

Oh yeah, i forgot. Batman has been selected as a possible candidate for the Green lantern ring as well as a potential candidate for the Sinestro Corps. his psyche has to be worth something if he's almost been a ring slinger more than once.

Well the Sinestro Corp's drafts based on the ability to instill great fear rather than the ability to overcome it and willpower in general but true Batman's qualifying for a power ring from either group let alone his unique usefullness to both groups does lend credence to his having an exceptional Psyche although I'm not sure I'd rate him higher than say Spider-man but that'd still be quite good and enough to be part of either group. In the context of the DCU though Batman wouldn't rate a Psyche equal or superior to someone like Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner however, so if they're rated at Amazing Batman wouldn't rate higher than Incredible since for DC those two would be benchmark characters for the most powerful of human Psyches not related to superhuman endowments and having extreme experience with the manipulation of things via pure willpower (although they probably really rate closer to Monstrous, particular Jordan).

Thanks for all of the input guys. I was kinda worried that this post would have been troll bait.

I still go by my original post, but most of you have some valid points.

Bruce Wayne is a very busy man, and has many, many talents which would most likely take time and dedication. That's why I feel he cannot commit himself to one field in particular.

Sure, an Am fighting rank could be possible, but does he not mostly fight street crime and thugs? All I'm saying, is to achieve max human potential, there should be a good reason. Again, look at Wolverine. For some reason, his FASE hasn't changed. I really don't think that Batman would be, or should be considered a better fighter than Wolverine. Who has more physical experience? Who's been around longer? Who has fought more "super human" adversaries? I personally wouldn't put Batman in the same class as Logan, but hey, that's just me...

As far as strength goes, no one can press 1000 lbs. and the max Ex rank is 25... But regardless, I've watched these guys on TV give it thier all to deadlift 800 lbs. These guys are the strongest of the strongest from around the world. Do you have any idea of what they go through to achieve this? It takes years of dedicated training. To say one man could have max FASE is rediculous. I'm not saying this to provoke anyone, but just to achieve that high of strength, you would have to dedicate all of your time to just that. The same goes for fighting, dexterity, endurance, etc...

I never disagreed on a Rm endurance, I just think an Ex would be more likely considering everything else he has going on. I won't argue here.

As far as reason goes, I would NEVER consider giving him the same rank as Tony Stark. I can agree with a Rm, but I prefer an Ex. Take into account his many talents. They would give him the boost in the fields he is knowledgable with.

I never disagreed with an In Intuition. I understand he is "The greatest detective" etc, etc...

Psyche? I honestly don't know. But I do feel that an Am is kinda pushing it. If you give Batman an Am, what would you give The Joker?

As far as someone saying that his FASERIP would increase by putting on a kevlar (or whatever) suit is kind of silly. Saying his reason is In because he can "radio in for data" is like me saying my reason is In because I'm sitting in front of a computer. Seriously dude, how could wearing a cowl, that covers most of your face improve your intuition?

i didn't want to respond, but i can't stand...

Seriously dude, how could wearing a cowl, that covers most of your face improve your intuition?
do you see in the dark normally ? no ? and when you put on your face a mask with nightvision? whoa, now you do. that's how a mask can improve your intuition... and the same goes to the hearing, the microscopic vision and all other senses...

on the strength you could be right. the strongest man on earth is really big and hard, and so... but we talking about an RPG world, in the DC Universe... so where are as many superhuman and magic exists, i can imagine that a "normal" human like our beloved Batman, can use such martial techniques and other things which pushes his FASE beyond the Typical range

but this is my opinion, and your game, afterall...


Dae

Did you even read my first post?

His cowl does not cover his eyes. Even if he had a "drop-down visor" that would enable him with "nightvision," It would still not be his normal vision. OK? TY.

Actually just because Batman might have technology built into his cowl to give him nightvision, enhanced hearing, etc. doesn't mean anything with regards to his intuition. At best it simply ensures that his cowl doesn't hinder his perceptions and he can use his intuition to its fullest whatever it might be. But even the best optics for example aren't going to allow him the full range of peripheral vision and such as would be necessary for full exercise of that for example. At best such features might provide no more than the benefits listed under enhanced senses in general depending on the situation (i.e. a 1CS bonus to Intuition for detecting something with the specific enhanced sense if it doesn't significantly exceed the rank of the natural intuition or the rank of the enhancement whichever is better). But Batman's basic intuition isn't over Incredible and might not make Remarkable considering how often his enemies manage to ambush him in spite of being 'The World's Greatest Detective'.

^ What he said. ^

If you're going to get hung up on real world examples vs. the comic book "human" heroes, you're going to have to accept the fact that no human, however talented, could accomplish half of what "human" super heroes routinely accomplish even if they trained 24/7. There's just no way there's enough hours in the day (or genetic potential) for an ordinary human to be able to charge a bunch of machine-gun-wielding thugs and take them down with bare hands without getting hit even once (to take one example).

There are countless other examples of various heroic FEATS of fighting, agility, etc. that are pulled off by "human" heroes that no one on earth could come even close to doing. Look at the work and set up required by Hollywood to do a relatively simple stunt (even wire-work, although I'm talking more about actual stuntwork and choreography). A three-minute fight scene in an action movie can take anywhere from 3 days to a week, and if you look at a bloopers reel of a Jackie Chan movie you see how often they go wrong even when you're working with acknowledged experts in the field. And comic heroes do stuff beside which even wire-work pales in comparison.

If you're going to try to limit a "human" hero's abilities with real-world examples, keep in mind that in the real world Batman would eat a bullet probably on his first day. Cap would never survive a battle, even with WWII tech. And so on. It just seems a little pointless to me to play a heroic "human" superhero campaign if you're going to get hung up on realism.

Well there are a few examples in the real world of actual humans pulling off feats that if there weren't witnesses no one would believe. One case of a soldier during I believe it was WWI had him successfully rushing and surviving being shot up by enemy soldiers at a fortification and took it out single-handedly and earned him the highest honors available. The depths of ability for humans has yet to be truly comprehended and mapped out and might never be, although the ability to do such things routinely as heroes do is likely not humanly possible without serious negative consequences.

civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you're going to get hung up on real world
> examples vs. the comic book "human" heroes, you're
> going to have to accept the fact that no human,
> however talented, could accomplish half of what
> "human" super heroes routinely accomplish even if
> they trained 24/7. There's just no way there's
> enough hours in the day (or genetic potential) for
> an ordinary human to be able to charge a bunch of
> machine-gun-wielding thugs and take them down with
> bare hands without getting hit even once (to take
> one example).

Yeah, his Bat-Suit has nothing to do with that... And by bare hands, do you mean all of the convenient little gadgets he carries with him?

There are many human heroes who have no where near perfect stats that still manage quite well. I'm not saying Batman is a push-over, but I think he is a bit exaggerated. A bit, not entirely. I think I've said it twice already, but I'll say it again. There is not much difference between an In fighting, and an Am fighting. I've yet to hear one good reason to give him max human fighting. Electra fights more skilled opponents than Batman, yet she has an In. Wolverine could beat him to a pulp without his adamantium claws, yet he has an In. I could go on. Cap has an Am due to his physical enhancement, and from training by the US government. What does Batman have? The Punisher is a highly decorated marine with years of training and experience, yet you have no problem dumbing him down to an In.

The fact is, he is a human character. There are plenty of them, yet how many have max FASE? I'm just as big of fan of Batman as anyone, but I just can not stomach seeing these stats.

Well, the fact of the matter is that Batman has in canon been said to be one of the DCU's top hand to hand combatants, and he's further beaten DC's top hand to hand combatants.

Let's do the list...

Deathstroke the Terminator - Check
Prometheus - Check
Lady Shiva - Check
Katana - Check
Blue Beetle - Check
Bane - Check
Azrael - Check
Ra's al Gul - Check
Anarky - Check
King Snake - Check


he's beaten the best of the best. Sure they've beaten him a time or two as well, but i don't think anyone is going to try and say that Dick Grayson, Cassandra Cain, Tim Drake, Black Canary, or Green Arrow are as good as the Bat and they're supposed to be the "Incredible" rung of DC fighters.

While I'm not certain about that whole list, Capo (mostly due to lack of recent familiarity with some of those you listed), there's no real arguing that Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, King Snake, and Bane are some of DC's most formidable hand to hand warriors (esp. when Bane's not portrayed as just another thug -- the man is smart too).

DC has long declared that Batman is one of the best, and the fact he can consistently give folks like Deathstroke, Bane and Shiva some of their toughest fights bears that out.

In rpg terms, when the DC Heroes RPG was published long ago, Batman was statted out with pretty much maximum human physical stats according to the game system, and he came very close on the mental stats as well...