I don't think my point is that Punisher at Incr is "dumbing down," you missed my point entirely, Lepe. Incr is (and maybe we have a scaling disagreement) two rank scales up from the highest possible human level that ordinary folks in the real world will ever see. If Ex is an Olympic level athlete (boxer, whatever) at the peak of their abilities, than so-called "human" superheroes are routinely way way above that, that's my argument. To try to limit a "normal" superhero by things, like, training time (which definitely impacts a real-world athlete) seems to me to defeat the purpose of playing a normal superhero campaign at all. That's all. No amount of training in the real world, imho, would propel any human athlete too far above Ex (maybe Rem, maybe) in terms of the base F stat.

In terms of your point, which I got after reading your first post only once, I think you should play Batman however you want. If you want him to be about at the level that Iron Fist was originally (40/30/10/20) than go to it. Different strokes for different folks. I get that. I have no interest trying to convince you otherwise. I just think you trying to convince other people that a human superhero should have lower stats because in the real world they would not have enough training time to have skills at that level makes no sense. No one in the real world, even with 24/7 training, could get to the level of even an ordinary human superhero.

Personally, I think he's at least the equivalent of Cap in all things but strength, in terms of how most writers portray his abilities in most of the titles and graphic novels with him in them. So, if he's only Incr (a premise I'm willing to accept for the sake of argument), than Daredevil and Iron Fist should be lower, as should Punisher (who Batman defeated with ease in their crossover). You want him at Incr, fine, but you'd better scale all the other normal superheroes to the same level.

I'm also not convinced Wolverine would beat him w/o his claws and healing factor, just on plain skill.

civet5285
I would continue to disagree, but as you said, "play him however you want."

I'm sorry if anyone thought I started this thread just to argue. As I stated, this is just my personal rendition.

Wolverine w/o claws and regen vs Batman?

How about this... Wolverine with no powers. No adamantium claws, or skeleton, no regeration, no nothing. Vs. Bruce Wayne. No Bat-suit, no gadgets, no nothing. Mano-a-mano...(Or however the F you say it.)

Who is the victor, and why?

> Wolverine w/o claws and regen vs Batman?

That's a tough call.... Batman?!?!

> How about this... Wolverine with no powers. No
> adamantium claws, or skeleton, no regeration, no
> nothing. Vs. Bruce Wayne. No Bat-suit, no gadgets,
> no nothing. Mano-a-mano...

That's a really tough one. Draw?

> (Or however the F you say it.)

Mano y mano, is correct if you mean a hand to hand combat type conflict.

Thank you for the spanish lesson, (no offense.) and thank you for your response.

Lets do away with "draws." Pick a winner, and give a reason.

lepetomane,

Most of the time I try to stay out of these, since there is rarely an agreement, however...

As requested....

> Wolverine w/o claws and regen vs Batman?

Wolverine! Logan also has a ton of training over many years, before Bruce was even alive. Logan is not nearly (that I know of) concerned with injuring others in the fray, and if he didn't have the aforementioned powers, he'd probably have a bunch of gadgets to work into the conflict just as Bruce does.

> How about this... Wolverine with no powers. No
> adamantium claws, or skeleton, no regeration, no
> nothing. Vs. Bruce Wayne. No Bat-suit, no gadgets,
> no nothing. Mano-a-mano...(Or however the F you
> say it.)
>
> Who is the victor, and why?

This is sort of the same thing, in the sense that, Logan is a modern warrior. Trained in al kinds of martial arts (as Bruce is) but also a trained operative, a military man. The rub here, is that without his powers, Logan would have died before Bruce was every a thought in his parents minds. But I'm assuming we are ignoring that element and just working on the conflict.

This topic ought be moved to the Battle Royal thread if it drifts any further from the original stat work in question. Any objections?

Anyway...

I'm going to say Logan for the win in both cases.

Wolverine -=VS=- Bat-Man

No additional Powers…. No Additional Equipment…



I’d put my Money on Bat-Man even though Wolverine has “Years” of experience in Combat…

First… Bat-Man is illustrated with a better education and more receptive and disciplined mind….

Wolverine is illustrated as some drunk brawler simply challenging everything in his path…. If not for Wolverine’s Powers he’d be Ho-Bo begging for a dollar on the street curb….



Second… Bat-Man manages to keep Wayne Enterprises alive, While Wolverine is not even smart enough to make a few bucks delivering pizza…..

C’mon Wolverine!!!!!!!!, even in his ‘Normal’ story line at 80 to 100 years old….. Wolverine just couldn’t save a dime, just blew it all on booze and chicks…. What about all that Special Military Service… I guess Wolverine didn’t get Paid… Wolverine needs to Get over being abused and move on with his life…

Sure, making money is not gonna Directly effect your Combat Skills….. Or does it???

Placing Money or Social Authority as the ‘Prize’ brings the most talented to the Table regardless of the competition…

And Bat-Man knows how to Claim the ‘Prize’…. Even in a sweaty, blood drenched, underground pit fight….

A bloody boxing ring is about the only place Wolverine holds a slight candle to Bat-Man…. And this brings me to my third point…



Third… Sure, Wolverine has been trained by some of the best Social Cultures in the world for hand to hand Combat….. But he losses his cool too quickly and goes berserk…. Which is simply useless in really closely matched competition…….

But Bat-Man’s skills, education, and discipline are always illustrated as ‘Current’ and calculating and cutting edge…. The Crap Wolverine practices is from 13th Century Japan….. Don’t get me wrong it’s good training, (for the Soul)

But that old stuff isn't Crap compared to Modern Combat Training….. Every 5 to 10 years go by, and the Current Generation of athletes consistently out perform the generation before…

Wolverine would be using basic punches and kicks; and maybe some Grappling Clinch Stuff…..

Bat-Man would pull off some Joint Lock / Bone Dislocating / Ligament Twisting Submission holds… Right after landing 5 to 10 direct Strikes to Wolverine’s nugget….


Forth…. Bat-Man is Physically larger and stronger than Wolverine.. And Bat-Man is shown to be more diligent and dedicated to staying in shape….

And I don’t even want hear the crap about “Size don’t mean Nothing in a Fist Fight”……. Professional Fighting Circuits have weight Classes for a reason…. And for any one who ‘Really Truly Fights’ they know the Bigger Guy has undeniable advantages…. Especially in hand to hand Combat…..

It’s why all the little nerdy guys made ‘Weapons’….
Get over it, and carry a weapon…. I’m a really Little Guy so my ‘Small-Guy’ complex is totally ‘INSANE’ so I Drove a Tank to Compensate….


Anyway.. that’s enough writing about this…. I could make examples all day… Bat-Man simply has MORE overall Combat Prowess at his disposal over Wolverine…..

No additional Powers…. No Additional Equipment….

BAT-MAN to Kick Wolverine’s Butt all over the place…




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2008 12:48AM by TankerAce.

Batman easily. This is based on one major fact: in a tough fight, Wolverine ALWAYS relies on his claws to save him as a last resort. Without them, Wolverine's Fighting drops significantly. I like Wolverine, but his claws are his best, and worst, asset.

That wouldn't be Wolverine then. Might as well list Batman without his Martial Arts Training and superb physical conditioning if you're going to list Wolverine without the features that make him Wolverine. Either way you have a character that's no longer the actual character you started with.

Listing Wolverine without claws would be like having Batman without Gadgets.... not martial arts. Gadgets are as much part of Batman(canon wise) as claws are part of Wolverine.

Batman with gadgets vs Wolverine with claws = Batman on top
Batman without gadgets vs Wolverine without claws = Batman on top

(of course, that depends what regeneration rate(and version of Regeneration) you will assign to Wolverine... having insta regeneration that replaces 10 or 20 pounds of flesh in a round or two... is really crazy, truly that must be more of a matter creation(limitation: own flesh) than anything else.. lol - in this case win goes to Wolverine)

Batman in any version vs Wolverine without regeneration(even with claws) = Batman most of the time




Also, in Batman's defense and his Cap like stats I must say that by the age Rogers got his "serum" Batman already had about 6-10(perhaps, guessing here) years of intense martial arts training. Also, Bat, has naturally bulkier and stronger frame while being taller(I believe, Bat was taller... at least originally). Considering that, even if Cap achieved some form of perfection for his frame... assuming he stayed human, Bat and Cap should be given the same strength with possible advantage to Batman.

If anything one could argue that both Cap and Batman should have good strength and just burning Karma for that extra push...

Tough fight to call considering that I like Batman so much.

Batman's chief advantage is his superb martial aptitude and training, his cool head, and his utility belt. Yes, Wolvie does have martial trianing and decades upon decades of experience, but most of that experience is, similar to Cap.America's, lost to him. And like Cap's shield, Wolvies claws are what they are and do what they do and thats it. Utility belt offers far more versatility. And yes, Wolvie's RAGE does make him more resilient and strong, maybe faster too, but it also makes him stupid "and" predictable.

Wolvie's chief advantage are his adamantium laced skeleton and his healing factor, which, coupled with his claws, is a match for virtually anything (if not everything) Batman can pull out of his utility belt or shed of martial tools. Yes, Batman undoubtedly knows pressure points and soft spots, but if being all but confined to that isn't LIMITING his vast array of martial manuevers, I don't know what is.

I don't see how Batman's business suave is any advantage, or fhis ormal education. Might as well throw his ability to score with women in there to if these standards mean anything in a physical competition.

Likewise, Batman's size advantage is fairly slight (215 lbs vs. 195 lbs.), but there is no way his strength and conditioning are beyond those of a guy that has a healing factor that eliminates fatigue and rewaeves torn ligments and muscle fibre on a scale measure in seconds (as opposed to days), or who has a skeleton that will not break no matter the stress it is put under (as so never needs to heal itself, on a scale measured in months).

Moreover, while size and weight are somethings, they do not provide an overwhelming advantage by ANY means. They provide raw power, and maybe a reach advantage in the case of "size", but they also reduce speed, guzzle the gas in the tank, ie. stamina, and thius require a slower pace for their athlete to stay in the competition.

In the early days of the UFC, when there we're no weight classes, Royce Gracie (185 lbs) dominated trained martial art purists nad brawlers.... which included more than one opponent that weighed in at 250+ lbs. In modern Mixed Martial Arts, guys like BJ Penn and Kenny Florian, who are natural 155 lbsers, have put on extra pounds to compete in higher weight divisions, with dominant to very good success. And the 30+ lbs they put on wasn't lean muscle. It was flab... which does nothing but hang off you... as much as strapping weights to your back before going into a competition, ie. they would have performed better against their considerably bigger opponents WITHOUT the extra pounds.

Of course, all of those guys, and Floyd Mayweather included, are more similar in aptitude, strength of technique, and psychological fitness/stability to Batman.

I think that in a chance fist-fight in a larger but featureless setting, Wolverine will take the victory. Batman simply can't generate enough damage to finish Wolverine; who will just keep coming like its the opening of the 1st round. Meanwhile, Batman is getting injured -- at least once, thinking he can just pop Wolvie in the "sweet spot" and end the fight in prompt order -- and his bumps and bruises are accumulating, along with his fatigue.

However once we introduce the ultility belt and/or a non-featureless setting, well, the thing that really defiones Batman isn't his martial ability IMO. It is his resourcefulness. He epitomizes human resourcefulness... the primary quality that has carried us from midway to the food chain in nature's scheme and skewed the advatnage of bigger, stronger, faster, and more physically adepted and dangerous animals. In a settings that offers all sorts of relative advantages/disadvantages, ie. a non-featureless setting, Batman IS going to find a way to win... a way to generate the damage (or whatever) necessary to finish the fight.

Final analysis is that (under most circumstances) Batman's martial ability, coupled with his superb physical conditioning, enable him to hang in a fight vs. Wolverine long enough for him to find a way to beat the Wolvster.

Batman.