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[www.classicmarvelforever.com]

Mister Fantastic
Reed Richards

Fighting Good
Agility Typical
Strength Typical
Endurance Remarkable
Reason Amazing
Intuition Excellent
Psyche Remarkable


Health 52
Karma 100
Resources Remarkable
Popularity 50


Powers

Elongation: Monstrous, up to 1500 feet
Plasticity: Monstrous with the following effects:
Form a bouncing ball with Monstrous Agility and Good speed.
form a glider with Feeble airspeed
Gorm parachute for up to 4 people
Good disguise ability
Formless puddle to flow through almost any opening
Amazing ability to assume any geometric shape
Amazing ability to become as thin as paper
Grapple with Remarkable strength up to 4 targets
Body Armor:
-5CS damage from blunt attacks
Remarkable vs. other physical attacks
Good vs. energy attacks
Hyper-Invention: Reed has the Monstrous ability to comprehend/design/repair technology.
Hyper-Intelligence: Reed's natural mental abilities were enhanced by the mutation. Should his powers be negated his mental attributes drop by -1CS.


Talents

Electronics, Engineering, Physics, Repair/Tinker.



Contacts

Avengers, Silver Surfer, Inhumans, Any superheroic person in the world, Physics and Engineering universities America



^^^ Here's where I think these ratings need to change.

1 ) Mr. Fantastic strength level is well above typical. He has lifted the Thing into the air, and he's 500 pounds minimum. This would require at the very least excellent strength. I have seen Mr. Fantastic lift the entire Fantastic Four, or rip off the head of the giant 50-foot Pyscho Man robot. This is far above typical strength levels. I would make his strength Remarkable, or able to lift about one ton.

2 ) Power feats.

A ) Because Mr. Fantastic flows like water, he should have +3CS to dodge and evade. This would place him on the Remarkable field for dodging, and best represent what he does in the comics. You could argue a +4CS for dodging..

B ) Fighting Skills.. If you can stretch or adjust a blow to any angle you are dangerous. I think the wrestling is fine. While there is no martial arts for stretching to enhance fighting, I'd say +2CS here.

C ) Weapons. Reed can make his arms or hands into blunt weapons. There is no such mention of this.

D ) Quick strike / extended reach. Due to his stretching powers, Mr. Fantastic can hit opponents from a distance of several areas.

New stats:

F: Remarkable
A: Typical
S: Remarkable
E: Remarkable
R: Amazing
I Excellent
P: Remarkable

Health.96
Karma: 100

Reed's Strength isn't Remarkable, he's using his powers to simulate Remarkable Strength (so it's a power stunt off of his Elasticity). Same with his Fighting rank, he's only Typical Rank as a fighter but his powers let him fake an effective rank of Remarkable.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reed's Strength isn't Remarkable, he's using his
> powers to simulate Remarkable Strength (so it's a
> power stunt off of his Elasticity). Same with his
> Fighting rank, he's only Typical Rank as a fighter
> but his powers let him fake an effective rank of
> Remarkable.


I disagree a bit. Strength is the ability to naturally lift weight without an external aid.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Reed's Strength isn't Remarkable, he's using
> his
> > powers to simulate Remarkable Strength (so it's
> a
> > power stunt off of his Elasticity). Same with
> his
> > Fighting rank, he's only Typical Rank as a
> fighter
> > but his powers let him fake an effective rank
> of
> > Remarkable.
>
>
> I disagree a bit. Strength is the ability to
> naturally lift weight without an external aid.

Which Reed's super-powers are. His normal physical strength without the use of his powers is Typical. When he's using those powers (since all those instances you point to Reed is obviously using his powers) he's faking Remarkable but at no time does he actually have Remarkable Strength. Just as Magneto doesn't have Unearthly Strength just because he can use his magnetic powers to lift as if he had Unearthly Strength.

I also think that he should be able to grapple more people. At the end of Secret Wars II he grappled over a dozen targets, some of which were as strong as the Thing.

But then I think that Sue Storms force field should be more powerful, since in issue #1 of Infinty War she redirected a nuclear blast away from herself when she was stood at ground zero.

Thing can arm wrestle hulk and it's even odds. They have an annual arm wrestle, and he's beaten Hulk at least once.

Human Torch in Secret Wars used his nova flame to power up iron mans armour with enough energy to blow away half a mountain, when even Thor was having a hard time breaking through using Mjolnir.

Stat wise the FF should be appallingly powerful, and I think that their stats are very low for what they can do.

XSE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also think that he should be able to grapple
> more people. At the end of Secret Wars II he
> grappled over a dozen targets, some of which were
> as strong as the Thing.

That's where his powers take over, just as he's used his Monstrous rank Elasticity to restrain the Thing when he's gotten upset and out of control. His powers let him restrain some physically powerful being since he's pitting their Strength against his power rank rather than his actual Strength.

> Thing can arm wrestle hulk and it's even odds.
> They have an annual arm wrestle, and he's beaten
> Hulk at least once.

Thing can have a fair fight because Hulk's resting Strength when not Enraged is only around Amazing to Monstrous, beating him once though just means he Red-feated while Hulk got a White not that Thing's really Unearthly.

> Human Torch in Secret Wars used his nova flame to
> power up iron mans armour with enough energy to
> blow away half a mountain, when even Thor was
> having a hard time breaking through using
> Mjolnir.

To be fair Thor was trying to not kill anyone trapped in the mountain with his blows, so wasn't actually unleashing any truly mountain-destroying might, whereas the trapped heroes could put everything into blowing the mountain out away from them as they had no reason to think they'd injure or kill anyone in the path of the blast.

> Stat wise the FF should be appallingly powerful,
> and I think that their stats are very low for what
> they can do.

They are appallingly powerful, but some things in the comics have crept beyond what the game can really cover (Psylocke at least once was shown blocking a nuclear explosion as well).

The problem with reed is that his stats explicitly state that he only grapples with remarkable ability. Don't get me wrong, I do think that his strength should be typical, but as written he can't do what you described.

For hulk I take your point.

For thor, he even described his strikes as his mightiest blows, and how they must have been buries deeply indeed if they couldn't hear him.

And don't get me started on psylocke and the whole tk debacle. Grrr.

XSE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem with reed is that his stats explicitly
> state that he only grapples with remarkable
> ability. Don't get me wrong, I do think that his
> strength should be typical, but as written he
> can't do what you described.

Which is why if one were to revise his stats they should revise his power-stunt of Grappling up to Amazing or Monstrous rank to better reflect what we've seen of him (and Reed's been successfully restraining Thing in every level of power other than his short-lived Pineapple form which Reed never had reason to restrain so plenty of evidence Reed's ability to restrain exceeds Remarkable rank).

> For hulk I take your point.
>
> For thor, he even described his strikes as his
> mightiest blows, and how they must have been
> buries deeply indeed if they couldn't hear him.

I know, I remember him saying that but he really couldn't have been using his mightiest blows since for one they require a serious build-up that exhaust him and another as already noted he wouldn't want to use his truly mightiest blows and risk killing his friends. Meanwhile the Iron Man armor has been shown being able to store and temporarily channel insane amounts of energy given the right input, so he got a few turns of storing up energy from Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau) and Human Torch to unleash in a single blast. But that's covered for his armor in at least some game write-ups, as he can store up to 400 points in game turns to release at once, so he's operating in the Shift Z range at the risk of the armor burning out. Thor tends to top out at Shift Y without power-ups like his Belt of Power or reason to tap into his life force for his CL1000 rank attack.

> And don't get me started on psylocke and the whole
> tk debacle. Grrr.

Yeah, I know, that kind of overblown nonsense gets really ridiculous (I think they tried a handwave along with lampshading about it).

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> XSE Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > For thor, he even described his strikes as his
> > mightiest blows, and how they must have been
> > buries deeply indeed if they couldn't hear him.
>
> I know, I remember him saying that but he really
> couldn't have been using his mightiest blows since
> for one they require a serious build-up that
> exhaust him and another as already noted he
> wouldn't want to use his truly mightiest blows and
> risk killing his friends.

Actually, Thor could well have been using his mightiest blows. The problem was that an entire mountain range was dropped on top of the heroes and Thor couldn't have known where to start hammering away to dig them out. Also, Thor was hammering away at a solid object from above and had to be careful not to hammer straight down to smash the rock lest his allies survived the mountain drop only to be crushed by a cave-in caused by him; he was probably smashing the rock with sideways swings to smash it away rather than trying to pound a hole into the mountain. He probably could have taken a more direct route and had almost as potent an effect if he didn't care about crushing survivors. Meanwhile, the combo powers of Torch and Iron Man drilled through from within and straight toward where Thor was hammering.


As for Reed's strength, I have to agree with Nightmask that his feats of lifting and grappling are clearly an extension of his stretching powers rather than an outright Strength score. Likewise, I wouldn't boost his Agility to show how hard it is to hit him, but instead allow him to use his elongation rank in place of Agility for dodge attempts since he's usually bending his body out of the way rather than actually moving completely out of the line of fire.

XSE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also think that he should be able to grapple
> more people. At the end of Secret Wars II he
> grappled over a dozen targets, some of which were
> as strong as the Thing.
>
> But then I think that Sue Storms force field
> should be more powerful, since in issue #1 of
> Infinty War she redirected a nuclear blast away
> from herself when she was stood at ground zero.
>
> Thing can arm wrestle hulk and it's even odds.
> They have an annual arm wrestle, and he's beaten
> Hulk at least once.
>
> Human Torch in Secret Wars used his nova flame to
> power up iron mans armour with enough energy to
> blow away half a mountain, when even Thor was
> having a hard time breaking through using
> Mjolnir.
>
> Stat wise the FF should be appallingly powerful,
> and I think that their stats are very low for what
> they can do.


You have a point about the Fantastic Four. Three of the four members have god like power to defeat anyone.

I think the Thing's strength is un-earthly these days.

The human torch melted Ultron's in Secret Wars 1. The torch is the only mortal to have a shift Z attack in a nova flame

The Invisible woman force field should be at the unearthly level considering what she has blocked. The old Sue used to choke people with her force field. The new sue can use her forcefield to stop major organs from working. I refer you to what Sue did to the Wizard in FF 549, as Sue came within seconds there of giving Wiz a heart attack by making a bubble inside his heart.

Back to Mr.Fantastic. You could say his brain is his best asset, but i think his mutation has made him a lot stronger than Typical. His power is part of his DNA, not a power stunt.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> XSE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I also think that he should be able to grapple
> > more people. At the end of Secret Wars II he
> > grappled over a dozen targets, some of which
> were
> > as strong as the Thing.
> >
> > But then I think that Sue Storms force field
> > should be more powerful, since in issue #1 of
> > Infinty War she redirected a nuclear blast away
> > from herself when she was stood at ground zero.
> >
> > Thing can arm wrestle hulk and it's even odds.
> > They have an annual arm wrestle, and he's
> beaten
> > Hulk at least once.
> >
> > Human Torch in Secret Wars used his nova flame
> to
> > power up iron mans armour with enough energy to
> > blow away half a mountain, when even Thor was
> > having a hard time breaking through using
> > Mjolnir.
> >
> > Stat wise the FF should be appallingly
> powerful,
> > and I think that their stats are very low for
> what
> > they can do.
>
>
> You have a point about the Fantastic Four. Three
> of the four members have god like power to defeat
> anyone.
>
> I think the Thing's strength is un-earthly these
> days.

Even if he does that's not godlike power, it's almost common anymore.

> The human torch melted Ultron's in Secret Wars 1.
> The torch is the only mortal to have a shift Z
> attack in a nova flame

The Human Torch didn't melt Ultron, he got him hot enough it melted some of his internals, his Adamantium shell was just fine.

> Back to Mr.Fantastic. You could say his brain is
> his best asset, but i think his mutation has made
> him a lot stronger than Typical. His power is part
> of his DNA, not a power stunt.

Except again it didn't, Reed's never demonstrated anything but Typical Strength, ALL of his feats doing things like lifting the Thing are explicitly a result of him using his elastic/plasticity powers to do the work meaning it's his powers doing it. Reed himself is not physically strong.

I think Reed should be able to use his Elongation rank as power stunts to dodge and grapple. That would fix him imho.

XSE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Reed should be able to use his Elongation
> rank as power stunts to dodge and grapple. That
> would fix him imho.

I agree with that. Would this also means he can attack with better than Typical damage per strike thanks to his powers?

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> XSE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think Reed should be able to use his Elongation rank as power stunts to dodge and grapple. That would fix him imho.
>
> I agree with that. Would this also means he can attack with better than Typical damage per strike thanks to his powers?


I do recall seeing Reed using his powers to enlarge his fist to enormous size just before landing a blow, delivering much greater damage and effect than a normal-sized fist would deal for his Strength. So I think a power stunt from his Plasticity / Elongation would represent such a maneuver for dealing higher damage.

IIRC, it was Punchout from the Genoshan Press Gang he flattened in the scene I'm thinking of, and she's got some degree of heightened endurance and resistance to physical injury, so it was possibly Incredible or higher blunt damage Reed delivered via that stunt.

I seem to recall him doing it a few times. He's certainly used it to smack the super skrull around?

Reed's just using his powers well.
Like a rubber band, each time he wraps around a baddie (and he's anchored), he holds for Remarkable (1,000 lbs.) strength. But it gets doubled every time he wraps around again. Twice around he's holding for 2,000 lbs., three times he's holding for 4,000 lbs., five times he's at 16,000 lbs. (8 tons)... nine times is 256,000 lbs. or 128 tons!
The progression jumps fast!

I agree with the rubber band interpretation and I'll third or fourth on his dodges and grapples being power stunts. Honestly, If a player impressed me with Reed using physics solve problems with his powers, that'd be worth good role-playing karma award in my game.

I agree with Nightmask. It is has to be power rank used not strength.
Like saying Sue also has enhanced strength also.
It is what Power Stunts are for.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taarna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > XSE Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I also think that he should be able to
> grapple
> > > more people. At the end of Secret Wars II he
> > > grappled over a dozen targets, some of which
> > were
> > > as strong as the Thing.
> > >
> > > But then I think that Sue Storms force field
> > > should be more powerful, since in issue #1 of
> > > Infinty War she redirected a nuclear blast
> away
> > > from herself when she was stood at ground
> zero.
> > >
> > > Thing can arm wrestle hulk and it's even
> odds.
> > > They have an annual arm wrestle, and he's
> > beaten
> > > Hulk at least once.
> > >
> > > Human Torch in Secret Wars used his nova
> flame
> > to
> > > power up iron mans armour with enough energy
> to
> > > blow away half a mountain, when even Thor was
> > > having a hard time breaking through using
> > > Mjolnir.
> > >
> > > Stat wise the FF should be appallingly
> > powerful,
> > > and I think that their stats are very low for
> > what
> > > they can do.
> >
> >
> > You have a point about the Fantastic Four.
> Three
> > of the four members have god like power to
> defeat
> > anyone.
> >
> > I think the Thing's strength is un-earthly
> these
> > days.
>
> Even if he does that's not godlike power, it's
> almost common anymore.
>
> > The human torch melted Ultron's in Secret Wars
> 1.
> > The torch is the only mortal to have a shift Z
> > attack in a nova flame
>
> The Human Torch didn't melt Ultron, he got him hot
> enough it melted some of his internals, his
> Adamantium shell was just fine.
>
> > Back to Mr.Fantastic. You could say his brain
> is
> > his best asset, but i think his mutation has
> made
> > him a lot stronger than Typical. His power is
> part
> > of his DNA, not a power stunt.
>
> Except again it didn't, Reed's never demonstrated
> anything but Typical Strength, ALL of his feats
> doing things like lifting the Thing are explicitly
> a result of him using his elastic/plasticity
> powers to do the work meaning it's his powers
> doing it. Reed himself is not physically strong.

Mister Fantastic/Reed Richards is more physically capable than the stats given to him. He is fairly impressive without directly using his stretching abilities. Here are the physical abilities I think Reed Richards should have.

Fighting Remarkable(30): Superior and or natural talent

Agility Excellent(20): reflexes similar to Olympic athletes

Strength Excellent(20): ability to lift/press 600-1000 lbs

Endurance Remarkable(30): Doesn't need rest except normal sleep

I'd have everything else being the same except he should have more sciences and martial arts B and C. He'd also have that giant fist(or hammer) that does Incredible damage and other bonuses for his stretching abilities. One of which is Incredible strength for the purposes of grappling and breaking out of entangles. Don't forget that martial arts C would give him a shift up into Amazing that would allow him to restrain the Thing and even the Hulk on a red roll.

XXX

Whenever Reed uses his stretching powers to do some impressive feat, some have dismissed that saying, "he's just using his stretching powers. He shouldn't get physical capabilities that are much better than the average person. It's just like if either Magneto uses his magnetism or if the Invisible Woman uses her force field to lift something up."

Reed's stretching power indirectly increases his mental attributes, so why shouldn't they increase his physical ones as well?

Anyway, the elastic body Reed has is his body. He's not pointing at something and making it come to him. He actually grabs people and thrashes them with his stretching fists. His elastic body is limber, flexible, and quick. People who are more limber, flexible, and quicker have more agility than those who aren't. However, I'll show how physically competent Reed is with and without him stretching.

FEATS OF FIGHTING

Mister Fantastic has proven himself more than just a competent fighter. He has shown superior fighting capabilities. Keep in mind that Reed doesn't just work in a lab all day. He has actually trained his limber and elastic body to make himself a more competent fighter to hit and avoid getting hit. He has also trained in the martial arts. (See link for PICTURE 1)

PICTURE ONE

The Hulk, Spider-Man, and a few others have Remarkable fighting without any kind of training. So what's the problem with Mister Fantastic having that much skill when he has trained? Anyway, here's another example of what I'm talking about.

PICTURE TWO

In PICTURE 2 Reed made his fist huge, making it more difficult to avoid. He can also strike with speed and accuracy enough to nail someone like Dr. Doom. His stretching does help, but despite all that, Reed is so skilled and competent that he went one on one with Dr. Doom. Don't believe me? Take a look at this pic.

PICTURE THREE

In PICTURE 3 Mister Fantastic battered Dr. Doom getting more hits in than he took. There's more in these panels where Reed fights the Mad Thinker.

PICTURE FOUR

In PICTURE 4 even the Mad Thinker admitted to Reed's superior fighting ability and flexible limbs. And this fight took place after the Thinker's energy gun had blasted and stunned Reed and the tougher-than-you-think hero had barely been able to crawl under a solid energy field. Let's take a look at another scene where Reed takes on Klaw.

PICTURE FIVE

Here's another example of Reed's fighting skills. Yes, his stretching is helping, but despite that, it still requires some remarkable fighting ability to nail Klaw who was doing everything he could to avoid getting hit with the vibranium knuckle dusters Reed was wearing. Reed was too skilled and fast for him. All his stretching did was to allow him to attack from a distance.

XXX

Now some of you might say it was his stretching that did all the work. Well, here's why I disagree.

1.That's still his body.

2.He has spent a lot of time training in martial arts and in simple fighting making the most of his elastic body. There's also all the experience Reed has accumulated over time.

3.He has used his hyper intelligence and elastic body in ingenious ways in order to make himself a much better fighter.

When you combine all that you have a Remarkable fighter, right?

FEATS OF AGILITY

Some of you think Reed only deserves typical agility and that his ability to dodge is based solely on his stretching ability. Let me dispel that notion. Take a look at this picture here.

PICTURE SIX

On the upper right panel of PIC 6, Reed dodges laser bolts from Doom's robots. He's stretching, you say. Reed's using his stretching to go towards the doombots. He's using his agility to dodge along with Johnny who does the same. He's dodging with relative ease.

Then Reed goes through several of these robots in a matter of seconds. Sure he's stretching, but he's doing it with speed and agility that took months if not years of practicing his fighting and agility skills to do so. Let's take a look at these panels.

PICTURE SEVEN

In PIC 7 when Reed took on the Super Skrull who had all the powers of the Fantastic Four and more, Reed moved in on the Skrull suddenly with speed that seemed to match the speed of thought. Even the Super Skrull admitted that Reed was fast. Don't just take my word or the Skrull's word for it. Read the box on top. What Reed did took speed, dexterity, and agility. The only way he was using his stretching was to make a giant hammer with which to pound the Skrull. More on that later. Now we'll take a look at this image. Do I still think Mister Fantastic has impressive reflexes and agility? You bet jurassic.

PICTURE EIGHT

Here in PICTURE 8, Reed dodged a Triceratops that can run at speeds of 35 miles an hour.(1)

Reed drew the dinosaur towards himself and at the last second leaped out of the way, deftly landing on his feet. Can someone with typical/average agility do something like that? Could the Thing do that with his Good/above average agility? I seriously doubt that.

The agility of an Olympic athlete could do something like Reed did but not an average or a slightly above average person.

(1) [www.fossilguy.com]

If you're gonna say Reed was somehow using his stretching powers you'd be wrong. During this time, all of the FF had their powers neutralized(except for Ben who wasn't able to become the Thing at all at the time, thus he used a Thing suit. Even Sharon Ventura the She Thing was in her normal human form at the time). Reed used his own well practiced agility to avoid getting hit by that giant, charging dinosaur, deftly leaping out of its way in a split second with ease.

FEATS OF STRENGTH

Time to show how strong Reed Richards really is. If you actually look at Reed Richards and the physique he has, giving him only Typical strength seems silly, especially when his much smaller brother-in-law, Johnny Storm has as much as Good strength. Let me show you why Reed's stronger with much more punching power. Let's start with this comic book cover.

PICTURE NINE

Here you'll notice Reed carrying a weapon much larger than a gun turret on a heavy battle tank. How much strength do you think it takes to be holding that thing up which is bigger than he is? You'll also notice Sue Richards is holding a much smaller gun while Johnny and Ben(in his non-Thing form) are holding devices bigger than Sue's but smaller than Reed's. She-Thing AKA Sharon Ventura is on the right holding a larger-than-life weapon as well. You might be thinking, "he's using his stretching to hold it up." He's only using his stretching to hold one end of it. His stretching powers make things convenient for him, but all right, let's try another picture.

PICTURE TEN

Inside the same comic, Reed is here holding a metal gun that's larger than a gun turret on a battleship. There's absolutely no stretching going on here. Reed is hauling a gun that a normal person couldn't hope to pick up much less casually carry around. And something so gangly would require even more strength to hold like that. Yes, he needed Sue to use her force field to hold him steady, but he didn't need any help from her or his stretching to hold up this massive larger-than-life canon. Here's more proof.

PICTURE ELEVEN

In PICTURE 11, Reed is pounding Dr. Doom into the ground simply using brute force. His stretching is only used here to maneuver around his opponent not to cause damage which he's obviously doing. Let's take a look at another picture.

PICTURE TWELVE

In this picture 12 Reed is creating a hammer to pound the Super Skrull who protects himself with a rock shield. Despite this, Reed cracks it little. Now earlier I felt the damage Reed could do was Incredible. How well would Spider-Man who has Incredible strength do in this situation? I doubt he'd fare any better.

XXX

If all these scenes from the comics can't convince all of you out there that Reed Richards' Fighting, Agility, and Strength are simply fantastic, I got a little more to say on this subject.

THE LAST WORD

Now I'm going to compare Mister Fantastic to another elastic superhero named Plastic Man. Here's Plastic Man's stats.

Plastic Man
Eel O'Brian

Fighting Remarkable(30)

Agility Remarkable(30)

Strength Good(10)

Endurance Incredible(40)

Reason Good(10)

Intuition Excellent(20)

Psyche Excellent(20)

Health 110

Karma 50

Resources Good

Popularity 5

Powers

Shapechange: Plastic Man has Monstrous ability to transform himself into anything he wants including mechanical items that function (Like tvs, planes, gliders, ceilng fan, etc) however retains his red and yellow costume motif.

Elongation: Monstrous, up to 1500 feet

Plasticity: Unearthly

Form a bouncing ball or coiled spring with Monstrous Agility and Good land speed.

Form a glider with Feeble airspeed

Form parachute for up to 4 people

Good disguise ability

Formless puddle to flow through almost any opening

Amazing ability to assume any geometric shape

Amazing ability to become as thin as paper

Grapple with Remarkable strength up to 4 targets

Body Armor: Plastic Man's malleable body provides protection from brute force energy attacks.

-5CS damage from blunt attacks

Remarkable vs. other physical attacks

Excellent vs. energy attacks

Immortality: Plastic Man was shattered and survived for 3000 years on the ocean floor.

Limitation

Plastic Man sees everything like a cartoon. Plastic Man has no toes. He is also a former criminal.

Talents

Detective, Guns, Criminal Underworld

Contacts

Justice League, Woozy Winks

Both of these guys are flexible and elastic, but why would Plastic Man have better fighting, agility, strength, and endurance than Reed Richards. Couldn't the same arguments made about Reed using his stretching be made about Plastic Man? And has Plastic Man done any training of any kind? Does he have the intelligence to make himself a better fighter than he'd be otherwise? Despite what most everybody else thinks, I still think Reed Richards AKA Mister Fantastic has more physical capabilities than what has been listed, but maybe you think I'm just stretching things.

Rather than quote all that (which would make things very difficult to find responses to things) I'll just comment on the various points made.

First off Reed isn't Remarkable Fighting ability, he's just not in the same league as someone like Spider-Man. While he's developed what amounts to a Talent for improving his combat ability via his powers he's not developed himself to where he's more capable than a Special Forces operative, his natural ability is at best Good. Same holds true for his Agility, he's not exceptional when it comes to his Agility either.

In regards to the pics you use to support your arguments for his FASE, Reed was making successful use of his karma for Red feats (and yes if the Thing felt like it he could pull off the dodge you mention, he's had no problems dodging speeding cars in the past when he needed to) they aren't examples of benchmarks for his normal level of ability. Especially true when he was fighting Dr. Doom, Reed as a hero almost always has more karma than someone like Doom and like in the example you show Reed was burning karma to ensure maximum effect from his attacks. This allowed him to appear like a far better fighter than he normally does.

In regards to Reed's genius, no his powers have zero all to do with how intelligent he is it ALL comes from before he got his powers. Outside of ONE storyarc where the writer, either confused or wanting to put his special spin on it had Reed's genius diminish when he lost his powers Reed has never been shown having problems with losing his genius at any other time (and we already know in the backstory that Reed and Doom were equals in college so Reed couldn't have had an inferior intelligence back then and only became equal after gaining powers he had to always be that way).

Meanwhile that's not a very good write-up for Plastic Man, his powers almost rival the Impossible Man in versatility and range. His stretching range is far greater, he routinely forms things like flyswatters and nets, and can not only take on the form of devices but they will actually work including devices like fans and TVs. Like Impossible Man he's also limited to the same color scheme no matter what he transforms into.

[First off Reed isn't Remarkable Fighting ability, he's just not in the same league as someone like Spider-Man. While he's developed what amounts to a Talent for improving his combat ability via his powers he's not developed himself to where he's more capable than a Special Forces operative, his natural ability is at best Good. Same holds true for his Agility, he's not exceptional when it comes to his Agility either.]

Special Forces? Do Spider-Man or Hulk have skills on par with the special forces? When the Hulk gets angrier, not only does his strength go up his fighting goes up as well. Does his raw skill and training go up or does his ability to hit his opponent go up? Even Ben Grimm has Incredible fighting while he's the Thing. If he's not the Thing his fighting is Excellent. Ben's nothing more than a street fighter with wrestling skills yet his fighting stat as the Thing makes him superior to a special forces soldier. Walter Langkowski/Sasquatch has as much as Remarkable fighting as Sasquatch. What kind of training had he gone through? Reed has at least went through martial arts training along with a much more limber and dexterous body that he has trained in. Even if he has created a fighting style based on his stretching body, it's still his body. Fighting isn't just based on raw skill. If that was the case, many superheroes in the Marvel Universe wouldn't have such high fighting stats either. It's also based on your ability to hit your opponent.

As far as the feats of agility go, Reed executed them like a walk in the park. It would be different if he was straining himself or barely pulled them off. Even the Mad Thinker and the Super Skrull noted Reed's quickness and fighting ability. I guess the Mad Thinker, the Super Skrull, and I are wrong.

[In regards to the pics you use to support your arguments for his FASE, Reed was making successful use of his karma for Red feats (and yes if the Thing felt like it he could pull off the dodge you mention, he's had no problems dodging speeding cars in the past when he needed to) they aren't examples of benchmarks for his normal level of ability. Especially true when he was fighting Dr. Doom, Reed as a hero almost always has more karma than someone like Doom and like in the example you show Reed was burning karma to ensure maximum effect from his attacks. This allowed him to appear like a far better fighter than he normally does.]

The pics I showed weren't rare events, Reed accomplished feats like these over and over again. We'd have to believe Reed Richards was a bottomless pit of karma points in order to accomplish the feats he had done if he only had Typical agility and Good fighting. And even if he had that much karma, how would a typical strength person punch Doctor Doom so hard that his armor cracked? That's a stretch with Excellent strength. You know Doom's armor is at least made of Incredible material, right? Can you even imagine Robin/Dick Grayson when he first appeared as a 12 year old boy using his typical strength to hit Doctor Doom so hard that he cracked his armor? And I thought I had an imagination.

[In regards to Reed's genius, no his powers have zero all to do with how intelligent he is it ALL comes from before he got his powers. Outside of ONE storyarc where the writer, either confused or wanting to put his special spin on it had Reed's genius diminish when he lost his powers Reed has never been shown having problems with losing his genius at any other time (and we already know in the backstory that Reed and Doom were equals in college so Reed couldn't have had an inferior intelligence back then and only became equal after gaining powers he had to always be that way).]

In the Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe #3, page 65 it states, "Hyper Intelligence; Reed's natural mental capabilities were greatly augmented by the mutation that gave him his elongation and plasticity abilities. If his powers are negated in some way, his mental attributes drop by 1 rank."

Reed Richards was a born genius with a lot of scientific knowledge, but when he became Mister Fantastic his intelligence became super human with hyper inventive abilities. He wasn't as capable of creating the technological advances he invented as Mister Fantastic when he was a college student. The cosmic rays didn't just give Reed elastic stretching, they increased his intelligence too.

And as far as Doctor Doom's intelligence goes, he also became smarter after his time in college. Let's not forget that Doom was involved in magic as well. And when he traveled the world and found himself in Tibet, he met with some monks who taught him their disciplines which he mastered, becoming even more intelligent upon taking his mantle as Doctor Doom.

One more thing, the arguments made about Reed Richards can be made about Ironman. "That's just his armor. He shouldn't get stats for it." Well, Tony Stark does get stats as long as he's wearing the armor. At the same time, as long as Reed Richards has that elastic, limber, more agile body, he should have better stats too.

You should probably practice using the Quote feature, it'd work way better, jsyk.

Screaming Dean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [First off Reed isn't Remarkable Fighting ability,
> he's just not in the same league as someone like
> Spider-Man. While he's developed what amounts to a
> Talent for improving his combat ability via his
> powers he's not developed himself to where he's
> more capable than a Special Forces operative, his
> natural ability is at best Good. Same holds true
> for his Agility, he's not exceptional when it
> comes to his Agility either.]
>
> Special Forces? Do Spider-Man or Hulk have skills
> on par with the special forces? When the Hulk gets
> angrier, not only does his strength go up his
> fighting goes up as well. Does his raw skill and
> training go up or does his ability to hit his
> opponent go up? Even Ben Grimm has Incredible
> fighting while he's the Thing. If he's not the
> Thing his fighting is Excellent. Ben's nothing
> more than a street fighter with wrestling skills
> yet his fighting stat as the Thing makes him
> superior to a special forces soldier. Walter
> Langkowski/Sasquatch has as much as Remarkable
> fighting as Sasquatch. What kind of training had
> he gone through? Reed has at least went through
> martial arts training along with a much more
> limber and dexterous body that he has trained in.
> Even if he has created a fighting style based on
> his stretching body, it's still his body. Fighting
> isn't just based on raw skill. If that was the
> case, many superheroes in the Marvel Universe
> wouldn't have such high fighting stats either.
> It's also based on your ability to hit your
> opponent.

Fighting is raw combat ability, sometimes it's indicative of training or experience sometimes it isn't. Spider-man fresh out of the box went from a Feeble (MAYBE Poor) fighting rank prior to his powers to instantly reaching Excellent, then spent Karma working up to Remarkable as he matured. While prior to the sliding Timescale Reed had military combat training skill since he and Ben served during WWII Reed hasn't had any such training after the slip and so far as I know hasn't had any service in the military. You also have to take 'ability to hit your opponent' with a grain of salt since nearly every game hero would have Unearthly or better Fighting then since they almost always hit their target in the comics or at least that's how it appears and we can't go basing things on that. Reed just isn't a warrior, he's not a Genius Bruiser he's just a Genius who ends up often in combat but it's not like he's focused himself into developing like that.

> As far as the feats of agility go, Reed executed
> them like a walk in the park. It would be
> different if he was straining himself or barely
> pulled them off. Even the Mad Thinker and the
> Super Skrull noted Reed's quickness and fighting
> ability. I guess the Mad Thinker, the Super
> Skrull, and I are wrong.

I think you're letting your like of Reed influence how you're ranking him, I like him too but I just don't accept him being Excellent Agility he's just not that good.

> [In regards to the pics you use to support your
> arguments for his FASE, Reed was making successful
> use of his karma for Red feats (and yes if the
> Thing felt like it he could pull off the dodge you
> mention, he's had no problems dodging speeding
> cars in the past when he needed to) they aren't
> examples of benchmarks for his normal level of
> ability. Especially true when he was fighting Dr.
> Doom, Reed as a hero almost always has more karma
> than someone like Doom and like in the example you
> show Reed was burning karma to ensure maximum
> effect from his attacks. This allowed him to
> appear like a far better fighter than he normally
> does.]
>
> The pics I showed weren't rare events, Reed
> accomplished feats like these over and over again.
> We'd have to believe Reed Richards was a
> bottomless pit of karma points in order to
> accomplish the feats he had done if he only had
> Typical agility and Good fighting. And even if he
> had that much karma, how would a typical strength
> person punch Doctor Doom so hard that his armor
> cracked? That's a stretch with Excellent strength.
> You know Doom's armor is at least made of
> Incredible material, right? Can you even imagine
> Robin/Dick Grayson when he first appeared as a 12
> year old boy using his typical strength to hit
> Doctor Doom so hard that he cracked his armor? And
> I thought I had an imagination.

Because of his, you know, powers. He's using his powers when he's punching Doom he's not wailing on him like a non-powered base level human being he's using his powers to make his punches effective.

> [In regards to Reed's genius, no his powers have
> zero all to do with how intelligent he is it ALL
> comes from before he got his powers. Outside of
> ONE storyarc where the writer, either confused or
> wanting to put his special spin on it had Reed's
> genius diminish when he lost his powers Reed has
> never been shown having problems with losing his
> genius at any other time (and we already know in
> the backstory that Reed and Doom were equals in
> college so Reed couldn't have had an inferior
> intelligence back then and only became equal after
> gaining powers he had to always be that way).]
>
> In the Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe #3,
> page 65 it states, "Hyper Intelligence; Reed's
> natural mental capabilities were greatly augmented
> by the mutation that gave him his elongation and
> plasticity abilities. If his powers are negated in
> some way, his mental attributes drop by 1 rank."

The guy who wrote the article obviously based it off that one instance I already pointed out, Reed lost his powers at least once if not twice prior to that and several times after WITHOUT any drop in Reason, Intuition, or Psyche. That's because his powers do NOTHING to augment his RIP, only his Ultimates Counterpart explicitly gets increasing intelligence courtesy of his powers.

> Reed Richards was a born genius with a lot of
> scientific knowledge, but when he became Mister
> Fantastic his intelligence became super human with
> hyper inventive abilities. He wasn't as capable of
> creating the technological advances he invented as
> Mister Fantastic when he was a college student.
> The cosmic rays didn't just give Reed elastic
> stretching, they increased his intelligence too.

No, no they didn't. Reed always had that, he even had adventures prior to gaining his powers where he created fantastic devices to defeat opponents (from Marvel's Monster phase). When we see him in college and later with his ship prior to the event that empowered them we just don't see him having time to do all that inventing and building or refine his technique.

> And as far as Doctor Doom's intelligence goes, he
> also became smarter after his time in college.
> Let's not forget that Doom was involved in magic
> as well. And when he traveled the world and found
> himself in Tibet, he met with some monks who
> taught him their disciplines which he mastered,
> becoming even more intelligent upon taking his
> mantle as Doctor Doom.

Doom's intelligence/Reason didn't increase his range of talents increased, giving him an effective Reason that was higher in those areas, it's the same as Reed. They both had Amazing Reason ranks and both have added to their talents that make them look even smarter, and are even better off inventing due to having Hyper-Invention (with Doom even higher ranked in that than Reed, the one spot in game at least Doom is written as superior to Reed).

> One more thing, the arguments made about Reed
> Richards can be made about Ironman. "That's just
> his armor. He shouldn't get stats for it." Well,
> Tony Stark does get stats as long as he's wearing
> the armor. At the same time, as long as Reed
> Richards has that elastic, limber, more agile
> body, he should have better stats too.

Except when those powers aren't really giving him higher stats, and Reed's powers aren't doing that, and with how the game is set up particularly how it handles Health people in power armor gain those stats in armor so they have a reasonably high health to reflect their durability, meanwhile Reed CLEARLY doesn't have an extremely high health but instead is around that of his wife and brother-in-law, unlike Ben who's the team's Brick.

Quote
Nightmask
Fighting is raw combat ability, sometimes it's indicative of training or experience sometimes it isn't. Spider-man fresh out of the box went from a Feeble (MAYBE Poor) fighting rank prior to his powers to instantly reaching Excellent, then spent Karma working up to Remarkable as he matured. While prior to the sliding Timescale Reed had military combat training skill since he and Ben served during WWII Reed hasn't had any such training after the slip and so far as I know hasn't had any service in the military. You also have to take 'ability to hit your opponent' with a grain of salt since nearly every game hero would have Unearthly or better Fighting then since they almost always hit their target in the comics or at least that's how it appears and we can't go basing things on that. Reed just isn't a warrior, he's not a Genius Bruiser he's just a Genius who ends up often in combat but it's not like he's focused himself into developing like that.

If it's possible Peter Parker who had zero fighting ability to go up so high, surely a martial artist like Reed Richards could go up in skills as well. Don't forget Ben went up in fighting skill as the Thing. Plus there's the fact that Reed actually trained his body and mind to make himself better. Both Ben and Reed matured in time. Even Sue and Johnny matured over time. Only Spider-Man matured? Have you ever read the end of the FF comics from the 60's where Reed actually explains how he trained and worked out? Have you seen any of the comic panels I posted where Sue says she learned martial arts from Reed who was one of the better martial artists on the planet? Did you see how even the Mad Thinker admitted to Reed's superior fighting ability? Even the Super Skrull admitted to Reed's speed(with which stretching had nothing to do). So Reed's friends and enemies are wrong?

And as far as hitting you opponent goes, heroes don't always hit their targets. They miss sometimes. Even high level fighters like Batman and Captain America sometimes miss their targets. I don't know where you got the idea that heroes always hit their targets. The more likely someone is to hit his target the higher their fighting ability and vice versa. The marvel RPG is set up that way. Raw skill is necessary which Reed actually has, but the innate ability to hit your opponent without raw skill has merit as well. How much raw skill did the Hulk, Sasquatch, and Spider-Man have when they started out? Zero. Yet they were able to do very well in hand to hand combat. Reed has done as well if not better than these characters.

Quote
Nightmask
Reed just isn't a warrior, he's not a Genius Bruiser he's just a Genius who ends up often in combat but it's not like he's focused himself into developing like that.

That depends on what you think a warrior is. Whether or not Reed's a warrior, he's a fighter. The comic book panel links I've posted show that. He's a genius all together. And that genius applies to combat as well whether just himself or leading his team. Reed Richards is a very focused person no matter what he's doing. Many martial artists have a great deal of control over their own bodies. Well, Reed has even more control over his body, allowing him to do the things I've shown in my previous posts.

Quote
Nightmask
I think you're letting your like of Reed influence how you're ranking him, I like him too but I just don't accept him being Excellent Agility he's just not that good.

Reed Richards isn't my favorite character. What has influenced me is what I've seen and read of him in the comics. Excellent agility is far from super human. From what I've shown Reed do, Excellent is a fair assessment. Comic book scenes that I've shown here are scenes that can't seem to influence you or change your mind at all.

Quote
Nightmask
Because of his, you know, powers. He's using his powers when he's punching Doom he's not wailing on him like a non-powered base level human being he's using his powers to make his punches effective.

Did you see Picture 11, where Reed only used his stretching to outmaneuver Doctor Doom and close in on him? Reed's face to face with Doom. His fist and arm aren't stretching when Reed strikes Doom in the jaw, causing his armor to crack and rocking his head back with what you'd call Typical strength backed up by extensive karma spending. You're ability to stretch things surpasses that of Reed Richards. I don't know what your definition of a warrior is, but with the way Mister Fantastic went toe to toe with Doctor Doom and took on the Super Skrull(even though he lost) made Reed look like a warrior. Reed Richards was an ass kicker. He wasn't on par with the Thing, but he still was able to go toe to toe with a lot of formidable adversaries and do pretty well for himself.

Quote
Nightmask
No, no they didn't. Reed always had that, he even had adventures prior to gaining his powers where he created fantastic devices to defeat opponents (from Marvel's Monster phase). When we see him in college and later with his ship prior to the event that empowered them we just don't see him having time to do all that inventing and building or refine his technique.

The idea that his stretching mutation has increased his intelligence to super human levels is still canon whether you agree with it or not. However, let's say you're right about that anyway. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that both Doom and Richards could have matured in intelligence, or does only Peter Parker mature over time?

Quote
Nightmask
Except when those powers aren't really giving him higher stats, and Reed's powers aren't doing that, and with how the game is set up particularly how it handles Health people in power armor gain those stats in armor so they have a reasonably high health to reflect their durability, meanwhile Reed CLEARLY doesn't have an extremely high health but instead is around that of his wife and brother-in-law, unlike Ben who's the team's Brick.

The health I think Reed should have isn't that high and doesn't surpass many of the "normal" super heroes of either Marvel or DC comics. Batman, Nightwing, the Huntress, Elektra, Batwoman, Catwoman, Falcon, Batgirl, and some others have as much if not more health than I think Reed should have. And if you're talking about durability, Reed's more durable than every other member of the FF except for the Thing. And the Thing would have at least twice as much health as I see Reed Richards having.

Talking about warriors, do you think the Hulk was a warrior when he started out? If that's the case, then being a rage monster makes someone a warrior. I could bring up other heroes or villains and Reed's feats of fighting, agility, and strength, but for some reason I don't think that would change your mind. I don't see what else I could show you.

Screaming Dean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
Nightmask
> Fighting is raw combat ability, sometimes it's
> indicative of training or experience sometimes it
> isn't. Spider-man fresh out of the box went from a
> Feeble (MAYBE Poor) fighting rank prior to his
> powers to instantly reaching Excellent, then spent
> Karma working up to Remarkable as he matured.
> While prior to the sliding Timescale Reed had
> military combat training skill since he and Ben
> served during WWII Reed hasn't had any such
> training after the slip and so far as I know
> hasn't had any service in the military. You also
> have to take 'ability to hit your opponent' with a
> grain of salt since nearly every game hero would
> have Unearthly or better Fighting then since they
> almost always hit their target in the comics or at
> least that's how it appears and we can't go basing
> things on that. Reed just isn't a warrior, he's
> not a Genius Bruiser he's just a Genius who ends
> up often in combat but it's not like he's focused
> himself into developing like that.
>

>
> If it's possible Peter Parker who had zero
> fighting ability to go up so high, surely a
> martial artist like Reed Richards could go up in
> skills as well. Don't forget Ben went up in
> fighting skill as the Thing. Plus there's the fact
> that Reed actually trained his body and mind to
> make himself better. Both Ben and Reed matured in
> time. Even Sue and Johnny matured over time. Only
> Spider-Man matured? Have you ever read the end of
> the FF comics from the 60's where Reed actually
> explains how he trained and worked out? Have you
> seen any of the comic panels I posted where Sue
> says she learned martial arts from Reed who was
> one of the better martial artists on the planet?
> Did you see how even the Mad Thinker admitted to
> Reed's superior fighting ability? Even the Super
> Skrull admitted to Reed's speed(with which
> stretching had nothing to do). So Reed's friends
> and enemies are wrong?

Okay, Reed is NOT a Martial Artist and he's certainly not one of the best on the planet. He may be taught from experience how to be an effective fighter using his powers but he's definitely not a Martial Artist. It's a gross exaggeration to try and make him out to be a combat machine when he isn't.

> And as far as hitting you opponent goes, heroes
> don't always hit their targets. They miss
> sometimes. Even high level fighters like Batman
> and Captain America sometimes miss their targets.
> I don't know where you got the idea that heroes
> always hit their targets. The more likely someone
> is to hit his target the higher their fighting
> ability and vice versa. The marvel RPG is set up
> that way. Raw skill is necessary which Reed
> actually has, but the innate ability to hit your
> opponent without raw skill has merit as well. How
> much raw skill did the Hulk, Sasquatch, and
> Spider-Man have when they started out? Zero. Yet
> they were able to do very well in hand to hand
> combat. Reed has done as well if not better than
> these characters.

That's inaccurate, all three of those had natural skill thanks to their transformations and being a professional athlete Sasquatch had at least some background in fighting and such before his transformation.

>

Quote
Nightmask
> Reed just isn't a warrior, he's not a Genius
> Bruiser he's just a Genius who ends up often in
> combat but it's not like he's focused himself into
> developing like that.
>

>
> That depends on what you think a warrior is.
> Whether or not Reed's a warrior, he's a fighter.
> The comic book panel links I've posted show that.
> He's a genius all together. And that genius
> applies to combat as well whether just himself or
> leading his team. Reed Richards is a very focused
> person no matter what he's doing. Many martial
> artists have a great deal of control over their
> own bodies. Well, Reed has even more control over
> his body, allowing him to do the things I've shown
> in my previous posts.

Reed has powers that give him control over his body (to the point that even caught by surprise he'll still instinctively stretch to absorb a bullet or punch, the only time I've even seen him get a black eye was from a total surprise attack from the Thing after he returned from Battleworld after learning the truth that Reed kept from him), NOT martial arts training. His genius isn't about fighting or combat and while it can sometimes help for that it certainly doesn't make him a Martial Artist let alone a master.

>

Quote
Nightmask
> I think you're letting your like of Reed influence
> how you're ranking him, I like him too but I just
> don't accept him being Excellent Agility he's just
> not that good.
>

>
> Reed Richards isn't my favorite character. What
> has influenced me is what I've seen and read of
> him in the comics. Excellent agility is far from
> super human. From what I've shown Reed do,
> Excellent is a fair assessment. Comic book scenes
> that I've shown here are scenes that can't seem to
> influence you or change your mind at all.

They don't because I've been reading the FF comics for decades and a few individual panels aren't going to win out against the entire body of comics containing Reed Richards I've seen that say he isn't Excellent Agility.

>

Quote
Nightmask
> Because of his, you know, powers. He's using his
> powers when he's punching Doom he's not wailing on
> him like a non-powered base level human being he's
> using his powers to make his punches effective.
>

>
> Did you see Picture 11, where Reed only used his
> stretching to outmaneuver Doctor Doom and close in
> on him? Reed's face to face with Doom. His fist
> and arm aren't stretching when Reed strikes Doom
> in the jaw, causing his armor to crack and rocking
> his head back with what you'd call Typical
> strength backed up by extensive karma spending.
> You're ability to stretch things surpasses that of
> Reed Richards. I don't know what your definition
> of a warrior is, but with the way Mister Fantastic
> went toe to toe with Doctor Doom and took on the
> Super Skrull(even though he lost) made Reed look
> like a warrior. Reed Richards was an ass kicker.
> He wasn't on par with the Thing, but he still was
> able to go toe to toe with a lot of formidable
> adversaries and do pretty well for himself.

You're the one stretching things, Reed's always using his powers to increase his effectiveness in combat when necessary, going for a punch he's going to instinctively use his powers to increase the effectiveness of it by shifting his mass around and unleashing a punch that's like a spring being released. The art however doesn't truly capture such things (just like you see art showing Wolverine cutting perfectly circular holes through walls thicker than his claws are long, a total impossibility, the drawing isn't reflecting the truth of things).

>

Quote
Nightmask
> No, no they didn't. Reed always had that, he even
> had adventures prior to gaining his powers where
> he created fantastic devices to defeat opponents
> (from Marvel's Monster phase). When we see him in
> college and later with his ship prior to the event
> that empowered them we just don't see him having
> time to do all that inventing and building or
> refine his technique.
>

>
> The idea that his stretching mutation has
> increased his intelligence to super human levels
> is still canon whether you agree with it or not.
> However, let's say you're right about that anyway.
> Is it beyond the realm of possibility that both
> Doom and Richards could have matured in
> intelligence, or does only Peter Parker mature
> over time?

No it most definitely isn't canon, I already said they've shown him lose his powers since then and suffer NO drop in Reason so CLEARLY that was a one-time event that was an aberration and all comics since then have made it clear that his Reason is unrelated to his powers (except, again, the ultimates version). Given neither Reed or Doom has demonstrated an increase to a Monstrous Reason clearly they'd already matured that stat by the time we see them, what they've matured are their talents that have expanded in number over time.

>

Quote
Nightmask
> Except when those powers aren't really giving him
> higher stats, and Reed's powers aren't doing that,
> and with how the game is set up particularly how
> it handles Health people in power armor gain those
> stats in armor so they have a reasonably high
> health to reflect their durability, meanwhile Reed
> CLEARLY doesn't have an extremely high health but
> instead is around that of his wife and
> brother-in-law, unlike Ben who's the team's
> Brick.
>

>
> The health I think Reed should have isn't that
> high and doesn't surpass many of the "normal"
> super heroes of either Marvel or DC comics.
> Batman, Nightwing, the Huntress, Elektra,
> Batwoman, Catwoman, Falcon, Batgirl, and some
> others have as much if not more health than I
> think Reed should have. And if you're talking
> about durability, Reed's more durable than every
> other member of the FF except for the Thing. And
> the Thing would have at least twice as much health
> as I see Reed Richards having.

Except it's far more Health than Reed actually demonstrates in the comics, because he doesn't have the stats of a seasoned fighter, and the Thing would have way more than just twice the health Reed's got (since their respective damage-soaking powers are roughly the same, although the Thing's is probably a rank higher), Reed wouldn't have handled even one strike from Champion while Thing survived multiple blows.

> Talking about warriors, do you think the Hulk was
> a warrior when he started out? If that's the case,
> then being a rage monster makes someone a warrior.
> I could bring up other heroes or villains and
> Reed's feats of fighting, agility, and strength,
> but for some reason I don't think that would
> change your mind. I don't see what else I could
> show you.

Yes transformations like what Hulk underwent can and do often bring incredible fighting ability with them, it's why a bullied geek like Peter Parker instinctively became an accomplished fighter with a single transformative spider bite. Some people are just naturally better at fighting than others, it shouldn't be any kind of surprise that super-empowering events can bring with them instinctive fighting ability that the person originally never had.

But we are going to have to agree to disagree because I simply don't accept your assessment of Reed's abilities based on my decades of reading over the comics and how the game ranks those abilities as well as the influence of his powers on them. You're free to play him that way in your game but I just don't accept those stats as appropriate to him.

I'm going to have to agree that Reed's seemingly improved feats of combat skill and agility are a result of using his powers in creative ways rather than a static boost to his ability scores. He has Good rank Fighting and Amazing plasticity & elongation... someone who can stretch & bend their body and only has a Good Fighting ability is still going to a heck of a lot more "skilled" in battle than someone with Good fighting without those powers... because the stretching/bending allows them to move in different ways than a normal person can which comes naturally to him now, and it also puts an opponent at a disadvantage (visually) because they're not used to fighting someone who can move like that. It gives the appearance of Reed looking like a better fighter, but he's really relying on his powers rather than his innate skill.

So I can see him "power stunting" combat skills, and yes even Strength. If the new Ms. Marvel can hit people harder just because she "embiggens" her hand, then so can Reed... which does not mean he's grown stronger, but he is hitting harder as a result of his powers... basically substituting his power rank for Strength (maybe -1CS or -2CS) as a power stunt for damage in the same way he can substitute his power rank for Strength to grapple. When Reed dodges or evades, he can rely on his Agility or Fighting rank to simply move himself out of the way of attacks, or he can stretch and make himself a much harder target, using his power rank in place of Agility or Fighting.

I'm going to have to agree with Nightmask because I don't believe there's a necessity to change Reed's abilities based on the evidence shown since his powers can do these things and using power stunts to do so is a perfectly acceptable means of explaining the various feats of Reed's "fighting skills."

It's obvious showing all kinds of evidence is pointless and that you're going to believe what you're going to believe regardless, so what I want to know is, how would you show Reed Richards' "seemingly" skilled fighting, agility, and strength that's only based on stretching? In other words how would you apply that to the game or would you?

Here's my take:

Reed has shown the equivalent of Martial Arts A and Wrestling. this doesn't mean he has trained in these arts, but he has some level of proficiency and should have them. This is evidenced well by Screaming Dean is scenes where Reed flattens Doom with a punch (Martial Arts A - slam/stun) and when he wraps-up/holds 10 combatants.

Also, Reed could easily power stunt the strength feats described (lifting Thing, super-punches). These could all be explained due to the elastic nature of his body. I'd give him -2CS equivalent Hyper-Strength.

Regarding Fighting, no, I wouldn't give him a boost. He has GD which means he has some training. There's no reason to give him more just because he's been shown landing some punches. You could argue he's learned to maximize his powers in combat and this gives him a boost, maybe -2CS from his Plasticity Rank (power stunt), but his actual Fighting stat shouldn't be increased since doing so would mean he could stand toe-to-toe with a trained fighter WITHOUT using his powers.

Agility is also OK. Even with Reed "dodging" the Triceratops. This is more because he used his outfit like a matador cape than because he is as agile as an Olympic gymnast. Again, I would allow for a power stunt that allowed him to dodge using Plasticity Rank instead of Agility.
Also, this could easily be explained as already being accounted for with the resistance to physical attacks provided by Plasticity. Combat is abstract. One can take less damage for any number of reasons besides simply being tough or pliant.

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's my take:
>
> Reed has shown the equivalent of Martial Arts A
> and Wrestling. this doesn't mean he has trained
> in these arts, but he has some level of
> proficiency and should have them. This is
> evidenced well by Screaming Dean is scenes where
> Reed flattens Doom with a punch (Martial Arts A -
> slam/stun) and when he wraps-up/holds 10
> combatants.

Power stunt stretching into an Amazing rank grapple attack or give him a talent he hasn't trained in for a Typical Strength with +2CS boost? Power stunt works better.

> Also, Reed could easily power stunt the strength
> feats described (lifting Thing, super-punches).
> These could all be explained due to the elastic
> nature of his body. I'd give him -2CS equivalent
> Hyper-Strength.

I could see that simple because changing the shape of his body is going to affect the leverage he can muster.


> Regarding Fighting, no, I wouldn't give him a
> boost. He has GD which means he has some
> training. There's no reason to give him more just
> because he's been shown landing some punches. You
> could argue he's learned to maximize his powers in
> combat and this gives him a boost, maybe -2CS from
> his Plasticity Rank (power stunt), but his actual
> Fighting stat shouldn't be increased since doing
> so would mean he could stand toe-to-toe with a
> trained fighter WITHOUT using his powers.

I'd allow a power stunt for him to use Elasticity in place of Fighting for Evade attempts... probably not for making attack rolls, though. It's easier to throw off someone else's attacks with weirdly defined body shape & movements than it is to hit your opponents more easily for the same reason.


> Agility is also OK. Even with Reed "dodging" the
> Triceratops. This is more because he used his
> outfit like a matador cape than because he is as
> agile as an Olympic gymnast. Again, I would allow
> for a power stunt that allowed him to dodge using
> Plasticity Rank instead of Agility.

Ditto.


> Also, this could easily be explained as already
> being accounted for with the resistance to
> physical attacks provided by Plasticity. Combat
> is abstract. One can take less damage for any
> number of reasons besides simply being tough or
> pliant.

True.

Screaming Dean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's obvious showing all kinds of evidence is
> pointless and that you're going to believe what
> you're going to believe regardless, so what I want
> to know is, how would you show Reed Richards'
> "seemingly" skilled fighting, agility, and
> strength that's only based on stretching? In other
> words how would you apply that to the game or
> would you?

Okay see you completely ignored where I said your few snippets weren't going to win out over the decades of reading the FF and seeing the body of things meaning the evidence I'm going on and yes I'm going to believe what I believe based on those decades of material not what you believe because that's completely my prerogative. So to repeat myself you're free to use what you think Reed's stats are in your game but I'm not going to use stats I don't believe suit the character. I'm also not going to stress myself out arguing about it since nothing I say will convince you of anything.

Quote
barna10
Here's my take:

Reed has shown the equivalent of Martial Arts A and Wrestling. this doesn't mean he has trained in these arts, but he has some level of proficiency and should have them. This is evidenced well by Screaming Dean is scenes where Reed flattens Doom with a punch (Martial Arts A - slam/stun) and when he wraps-up/holds 10 combatants.

Also, Reed could easily power stunt the strength feats described (lifting Thing, super-punches). These could all be explained due to the elastic nature of his body. I'd give him -2CS equivalent Hyper-Strength.

Regarding Fighting, no, I wouldn't give him a boost. He has GD which means he has some training. There's no reason to give him more just because he's been shown landing some punches. You could argue he's learned to maximize his powers in combat and this gives him a boost, maybe -2CS from his Plasticity Rank (power stunt), but his actual Fighting stat shouldn't be increased since doing so would mean he could stand toe-to-toe with a trained fighter WITHOUT using his powers.

Agility is also OK. Even with Reed "dodging" the Triceratops. This is more because he used his outfit like a matador cape than because he is as agile as an Olympic gymnast. Again, I would allow for a power stunt that allowed him to dodge using Plasticity Rank instead of Agility.
Also, this could easily be explained as already being accounted for with the resistance to physical attacks provided by Plasticity. Combat is abstract. One can take less damage for any number of reasons besides simply being tough or pliant.

All right, so you've actually looked at some of the pictures I posted. I appreciate that. It sounds as if you've give two shifts to Reed's fighting and strength for his plasticity. You'd also allow him to use his plasticity to dodge. His plasticity is Monstrous. That's more than I'd have given him. However, what would you say giving Reed the two shifts to his stats only while he has his elastic powers the same way Ben Grimm has more powers and better stats while he's the Thing? If he's somehow robbed of his powers he'd have the lower stats listed. It seems as if the only huge difference between you and me is how much health Reed would have and how Reed's physical stats would look like. If that's the case, I guess we can agree to disagree.