I've actually looked at the pictures as well. I just don't agree with your interpretation.

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Thrudjelmer
I've actually looked at the pictures as well. I just don't agree with your interpretation

.

Then you're in total agreement with Nightmask?

Screaming Dean Wrote:
>
> All right, so you've actually looked at some of
> the pictures I posted. I appreciate that. It
> sounds as if you've give two shifts to Reed's
> fighting and strength for his plasticity. You'd
> also allow him to use his plasticity to dodge. His
> plasticity is Monstrous. That's more than I'd have
> given him. However, what would you say giving Reed
> the two shifts to his stats only while he has his
> elastic powers the same way Ben Grimm has more
> powers and better stats while he's the Thing? If
> he's somehow robbed of his powers he'd have the
> lower stats listed. It seems as if the only huge
> difference between you and me is how much health
> Reed would have and how Reed's physical stats
> would look like. If that's the case, I guess we
> can agree to disagree.

Hey, I'm not going to fault you for using whichever set of stats you want. I greatly appreciate the visual references!

Screaming Dean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

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Thrudjelmer
> I've actually looked at the pictures as well. I
> just don't agree with your interpretation
>

.
>
> Then you're in total agreement with Nightmask?


I disagree with your interpretation. Don't put words in my mouth.

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Thrudjelmer
I disagree with your interpretation. Don't put words in my mouth

.

I asked a question. I didn't make a statement or put words in your mouth. Are you offended that I compared you with Nightmask? If that's the case I apologize.

Not offended, I just don't like presumptions. I do happen to agree with Nightmask in this case, that much of what you are describing for Mr. Fantastic is more a function of his powers rather than increased ability scores... but I disagree with him about Reed's intelligence being augmented along with or by his powers, whether one wants to describe it as "stretching his mind" or whatever. He was a genius and a peer to Doom prior to getting his powers... but he routinely out-thinks Doom after getting his powers, proving his superiority time and again.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not offended, I just don't like presumptions. I
> do happen to agree with Nightmask in this case,
> that much of what you are describing for Mr.
> Fantastic is more a function of his powers rather
> than increased ability scores... but I disagree
> with him about Reed's intelligence being augmented
> along with or by his powers, whether one wants to
> describe it as "stretching his mind" or whatever.
> He was a genius and a peer to Doom prior to
> getting his powers... but he routinely out-thinks
> Doom after getting his powers, proving his
> superiority time and again.

That's because Reed isn't as rigid in his thinking as Doom, or at least not as rigid in the ways Doom is (after all Reed is more rigid with regards to magic, where Doom is far more flexible, he acknowledges magic exists and uses it based on its rules whereas Reed can't handle that magic has different rules than most other things in reality run on). That and you're missing the argument in the issue of Reed's Reason because whoever wrote that awful 'Reed gets dumber without his powers' storyarc when Reed had no powers he wasn't capable of comparing to Doom in Reason when without powers or with Reed should be at least equal to Doom in Reason. If you want to blame Reed's powers on making him even smarter than Doom (which I disagree with his powers increasing his Reason other than Ultimate Reed Richards) then he should only drop to being as smart as Doom rather than dumber. Heck maybe there should be a talent for creative thinking, provides a +1CS bonus to Reason feats for outwitting opponents, it's pretty much a staple for experienced super-heroes like the FF or Spider-man even when their opponents are otherwise smarter.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to blame Reed's powers on making
> him even smarter than Doom (which I disagree
> with his powers increasing his Reason other
> than Ultimate Reed Richards) then he should
> only drop to being as smart as Doom rather than
> dumber.

This is where I'm at... unpowered Reed and Doom should be intellectual equals, though Doom's knowledge beyond science gives him other advantages. With his powers, Reed's intellect for science goes beyond Doom's.


> Heck maybe there should be a talent for creative
> thinking, provides a +1CS bonus to Reason feats
> for outwitting opponents, it's pretty much a staple
> for experienced super-heroes like the FF or
> Spider-man even when their opponents are otherwise
> smarter.

I would reserve that as a circumstance bonus for creative players who come up with clever ideas for outwitting opponents that might seem a bit far-fetched but along in line with that kind of comic book thinking from which the heroes usually often benefit.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you want to blame Reed's powers on making
> > him even smarter than Doom (which I disagree
> > with his powers increasing his Reason other
> > than Ultimate Reed Richards) then he should
> > only drop to being as smart as Doom rather than
> > dumber.
>
> This is where I'm at... unpowered Reed and Doom
> should be intellectual equals, though Doom's
> knowledge beyond science gives him other
> advantages. With his powers, Reed's intellect for
> science goes beyond Doom's.

Well that's the thing, it really doesn't. It's not Reed's Reason it's the spark of creativity he has that drives him with an endless thirst for knowledge and learning and exploring. They even had a storyarc where a villain stole that from him rather than his genius and couldn't handle it long-term (it also resulted in Reed losing the ability to come up with anything new but being emotionally connected to his family again). Reed's powers have never included a boost to his genius (at best the one time he had issues of getting dumber you can write it off as something about why he lost his powers that one time also negatively impacted his Reason, while later and previous ways of losing them didn't inflict brain damage at the same time). It's that creativity of his that lets him outwit Doom not his Reason.

> > Heck maybe there should be a talent for
> creative
> > thinking, provides a +1CS bonus to Reason feats
> > for outwitting opponents, it's pretty much a
> staple
> > for experienced super-heroes like the FF or
> > Spider-man even when their opponents are
> otherwise
> > smarter.
>
> I would reserve that as a circumstance bonus for
> creative players who come up with clever ideas for
> outwitting opponents that might seem a bit
> far-fetched but along in line with that kind of
> comic book thinking from which the heroes usually
> often benefit.

Well to be fair you can't really expect players to be as creative as the heroes are in comics, that's almost as bad as expecting a player of a genius character to have to work out a complex math or physics problem and penalizing him if he has to use a Reason feat to solve it (as happens in several places in the Timewarp Trilogy).

I find this conversation interesting, but the main problem with Screaming Dean is the fact that pretty much everything he's put down is from the sixties and seventies. Reed Richards WAS a warrior and an ass kicker, but he isn't now. He's been somewhat retconned into a more sophisticated, less violent superhero. Someone mentioned a time slip; time stumble would be more accurate. Dean has spoken about how much muscles Reed had. That was in the past when manly men were supposed to lead. If you see the picture I put down, you'll notice Reed Richard's isn't muscular at all. This is how he is now. Look how weak and prissy Sue Richards was in comparison to what she is now. She's way tougher. Things change.(no pun intended) I believe it was when John Byrne started writing the Fantastic Four in the mid-eighties that Reed began to be less of a brawler and more of a sophisticated scientist relying more on his brains and less on his fists.

Nice try, Dean. No offense, alright?

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ERB
I find this conversation interesting, but the main problem with Screaming Dean is the fact that pretty much everything he's put down is from the sixties and seventies. Reed Richards WAS a warrior and an ass kicker, but he isn't now. He's been somewhat retconned into a more sophisticated, less violent superhero. Someone mentioned a time slip; time stumble would be more accurate. Dean has spoken about how much muscles Reed had. That was in the past when manly men were supposed to lead. If you see the picture I put down, you'll notice Reed Richard's isn't muscular at all. This is how he is now. Look how weak and prissy Sue Richards was in comparison to what she is now. She's way tougher. Things change.(no pun intended) I believe it was when John Byrne started writing the Fantastic Four in the mid-eighties that Reed began to be less of a brawler and more of a sophisticated scientist relying more on his brains and less on his fists.

Nice try, Dean. No offense, alright?

Nice post. Remember when Reed used Vibranium knuckles! He could be bad @ss if he wanted to be.

Hey I agree with the Mr. Fantastic, but.. if I can, I'm new here. I am sooooooo waiting for a few more extremely COOL CHARACTERS to be added.... LIKE: The White Tiger, Woodgod, Paladin, Steel Serpent (Iron Fist's enemy) and a few other cool ones... Who do we talk to about doing this. thanx Eddifox

White Tiger. Did he ever meet Black Panther?

[marvel.wikia.com])

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Screaming Dean
Quote
Thrudjelmer
I've actually looked at the pictures as well. I just don't agree with your interpretation
.

Then you're in total agreement with Nightmask?

This whole argument is hilarious. I could write a story from it alone. Hyuk. hyuk hyuk.

Keep up the banter!

So, after having read through the first 200 issues of the original classic Fantastic Four things to note regarding Reed Richards before they inflicted sliding timescale on things.

Reed served in WWII, has stated he's earned almost as many medals as Audie Murphy which would make Reed one of the most decorated vets of WWII in his universe. Has referred to having training in Judo and Boxing and is forced to make use of that during the last period of powerlessness leading into the reveal of the Doom Clone for the 200th issue climax. There are good odds that Reed has Martial Arts A and B or Excellent rank Fighting. As a veteran he's clearly got Military talent and Guns talent.

No write-up of him should have ANYTHING in it saying part of his genius comes from the Cosmic Rays that transformed him. It's obvious that he suffers no change in his Reason between having and not having powers. He remains as equal to Doom in Reason without his powers as without.

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Nightmask
So, after having read through the first 200 issues of the original classic Fantastic Four things to note regarding Reed Richards before they inflicted sliding timescale on things.

Reed served in WWII, has stated he's earned almost as many medals as Audie Murphy which would make Reed one of the most decorated vets of WWII in his universe. Has referred to having training in Judo and Boxing and is forced to make use of that during the last period of powerlessness leading into the reveal of the Doom Clone for the 200th issue climax. There are good odds that Reed has Martial Arts A and B or Excellent rank Fighting. As a veteran he's clearly got Military talent and Guns talent.

Sounds like you agree with me that Reed WAS a tough guy BEFORE the timeslip you were talking about.

Quote
ERB

Quote
Nightmask
So, after having read through the first 200 issues of the original classic Fantastic Four things to note regarding Reed Richards before they inflicted sliding timescale on things.

Reed served in WWII, has stated he's earned almost as many medals as Audie Murphy which would make Reed one of the most decorated vets of WWII in his universe. Has referred to having training in Judo and Boxing and is forced to make use of that during the last period of powerlessness leading into the reveal of the Doom Clone for the 200th issue climax. There are good odds that Reed has Martial Arts A and B or Excellent rank Fighting. As a veteran he's clearly got Military talent and Guns talent.

Sounds like you agree with me that Reed WAS a tough guy BEFORE the timeslip you were talking about.

Prior to them letting the timescale slide so that Reed and Ben no longer served in WWII or any other war yes Reed was considerably tougher in origin than he is now. He was likely on par with a highly trained soldier, perhaps equal to a modern day Special Forces elite military man. He wasn't some Martial Arts master like some think or able to rival an Olympic Athlete in Agility but he was definitely a tough guy who simply didn't see the need to act one, it was enough for him to know he WAS one. Much like Audie Murphy who never went around being a bully or fake tough guy he remained a quiet, soft-spoken man who could when he had to stare down a guy twice his size with ease.

Quote
Nightmask
Prior to them letting the timescale slide so that Reed and Ben no longer served in WWII or any other war yes Reed was considerably tougher in origin than he is now. He was likely on par with a highly trained soldier, perhaps equal to a modern day Special Forces elite military man. He wasn't some Martial Arts master like some think or able to rival an Olympic Athlete in Agility but he was definitely a tough guy who simply didn't see the need to act one, it was enough for him to know he WAS one. Much like Audie Murphy who never went around being a bully or fake tough guy he remained a quiet, soft-spoken man who could when he had to stare down a guy twice his size with ease.

Yeah. Reed was a badass back in the day. If you took away both of their powers, Ben Grimm wasn't that much tougher than Reed was before the timeslip. You can see the difference if you watch the F4 cartoon from the 60's and the F4 cartoon from the 2,000's. The previous Reed had a harder voice. The latest Reed is much more soft spoken.

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ERB

Quote
Nightmask
Prior to them letting the timescale slide so that Reed and Ben no longer served in WWII or any other war yes Reed was considerably tougher in origin than he is now. He was likely on par with a highly trained soldier, perhaps equal to a modern day Special Forces elite military man. He wasn't some Martial Arts master like some think or able to rival an Olympic Athlete in Agility but he was definitely a tough guy who simply didn't see the need to act one, it was enough for him to know he WAS one. Much like Audie Murphy who never went around being a bully or fake tough guy he remained a quiet, soft-spoken man who could when he had to stare down a guy twice his size with ease.

Yeah. Reed was a badass back in the day. If you took away both of their powers, Ben Grimm wasn't that much tougher than Reed was before the timeslip. You can see the difference if you watch the F4 cartoon from the 60's and the F4 cartoon from the 2,000's. The previous Reed had a harder voice. The latest Reed is much more soft spoken.

I liked the 60's ff cartoon which I first saw in the 1970's to early 1980's. I caught up with it 25+ years later seeing all episodes. Your right, Reed had a much harder voice, and better leadership, not to mention wasn't shy about combat back then.

Here's another scan from the comics about Reed's abilities. Note how he states that he has practiced long hours on his agility right over the scene where he's turned himself into a parachute holding Sue Storm up. This guy was a whole lot tougher and capable than his stats show him up to be.

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Screaming Dean
Here's another scan from the comics about Reed's abilities. Note how he states that he has practiced long hours on his agility right over the scene where he's turned himself into a parachute holding Sue Storm up. This guy was a whole lot tougher and capable than his stats show him up to be.

That's more a form of dexterity and not agility.

Quote
Nightmask
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Screaming Dean
Here's another scan from the comics about Reed's abilities. Note how he states that he has practiced long hours on his agility right over the scene where he's turned himself into a parachute holding Sue Storm up. This guy was a whole lot tougher and capable than his stats show him up to be.



That's more a form of dexterity and not agility.

Let me get this straight. Reed has spent hours training his agility only to increase his dexterity assuming there's a world of difference between agility and dexterity? Why don't you explain how Reed Richards had dexterity, not agility after practicing and developing his agility for long hours as stated in the scan I recently listed.

Quote

If all these scenes from the comics can't convince all of you out there that Reed Richards' Fighting, Agility, and Strength are simply fantastic, I got a little more to say on this subject.

THE LAST WORD

Now I'm going to compare Mister Fantastic to another elastic superhero named Plastic Man. Here's Plastic Man's stats.

Plastic Man
Eel O'Brian

Fighting Remarkable(30)

Agility Remarkable(30)

Strength Good(10)

Endurance Incredible(40)

Reason Good(10)

Intuition Excellent(20)

Psyche Excellent(20)

Health 110

Karma 50

Resources Good

Popularity 5

Powers

Shapechange: Plastic Man has Monstrous ability to transform himself into anything he wants including mechanical items that function (Like tvs, planes, gliders, ceilng fan, etc) however retains his red and yellow costume motif.

Elongation: Monstrous, up to 1500 feet

Plasticity: Unearthly

Form a bouncing ball or coiled spring with Monstrous Agility and Good land speed.

Form a glider with Feeble airspeed

Form parachute for up to 4 people

Good disguise ability

Formless puddle to flow through almost any opening

Amazing ability to assume any geometric shape

Amazing ability to become as thin as paper

Grapple with Remarkable strength up to 4 targets

Body Armor: Plastic Man's malleable body provides protection from brute force energy attacks.

-5CS damage from blunt attacks

Remarkable vs. other physical attacks

Excellent vs. energy attacks

I concur.

In the comics, Reed, when he wants to, is a better than just a good fighter. I hardly see him miss. He executes moves with speed and agility partly because he can be any form he wants, but also because of his powers argument his mobility/agility/dexterity/ etc...


Here's how I see his FASERIP

Fighting: Excellent
Agility: Remarkable ( Marvel game says Typical )
Strength: Excellent ( I've seen him pick up the Thing who is 500 pounds, and restain him )
Endurance: ( Excellent or Remarkable )
Reason Amazing ( If there was an in-between to Monstrous that would it it )
Intuition: Excellent
Psyche. Remarkable

Health: 100
Karma: 100


Other stuff, he probably has some version of quick striking for fighting, Martial arts A ( Judo ), and damage argumentation when he makes his hands turn into blunt weapons.

They do give him a wrestling skill, but don't include a choke out, which he should have. Perhaps that was too violent for the game?

I also think he should get a dodging skill from his power. Or a power stunt to do it.

He should also have the leadership skill, but the game doesn't give him that either.

I played Mr. Fantastic once for a campaign, and under the given data in the late 1980's and early 1990's, he was too underpowered and boring.

A poor translation into the game for sure. My version of what I see in the comics, however, would make a very interesting roll character to play.

Reed has never shown Remarkable Agility, he's never been close to looking like an Olympic athlete. He uses his powers to morph his body around to dodge things primarily.

Reed does not have Excellent Strength, when he restrains Ben he's using again his powers to do it NOT his strength. When he's shown the few times he's done so lifting Ben he's always using his powers to do it because again he's NOT possessed of Excellent Strength.

This goes along with Reed's write-up from Marvel during the time period of the game, in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe. He has the normal human strength and build of a man of his age, height and build who engages in moderate regular exercise. He is not a body builder and gains no strength up due to his empowerment like Spider-man or some other heroes manage.

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Nightmask
Reed has never shown Remarkable Agility, he's never been close to looking like an Olympic athlete. He uses his powers to morph his body around to dodge things primarily.

Reed does not have Excellent Strength, when he restrains Ben he's using again his powers to do it NOT his strength. When he's shown the few times he's done so lifting Ben he's always using his powers to do it because again he's NOT possessed of Excellent Strength.

This goes along with Reed's write-up from Marvel during the time period of the game, in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe. He has the normal human strength and build of a man of his age, height and build who engages in moderate regular exercise. He is not a body builder and gains no strength up due to his empowerment like Spider-man or some other heroes manage.

Agility is defined as the ability to move quickly and easily.

Threading a needle takes agility, dexterity and timing, someone with just typical agility could not do it on the fly.

My point is Reed's formless body give him agility naturally and in the comics he's often dodging attacks.

I've seen him pick the Thing, and support many people when he's making a bridge. Typical strength would not cut it. The mutation powered up his strength naturally.

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Taarna

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Nightmask
Reed has never shown Remarkable Agility, he's never been close to looking like an Olympic athlete. He uses his powers to morph his body around to dodge things primarily.

Reed does not have Excellent Strength, when he restrains Ben he's using again his powers to do it NOT his strength. When he's shown the few times he's done so lifting Ben he's always using his powers to do it because again he's NOT possessed of Excellent Strength.

This goes along with Reed's write-up from Marvel during the time period of the game, in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe. He has the normal human strength and build of a man of his age, height and build who engages in moderate regular exercise. He is not a body builder and gains no strength up due to his empowerment like Spider-man or some other heroes manage.

Agility is defined as the ability to move quickly and easily.

Threading a needle takes agility, dexterity and timing, someone with just typical agility could not do it on the fly.

My point is Reed's formless body give him agility naturally and in the comics he's often dodging attacks.

I've seen him pick the Thing, and support many people when he's making a bridge. Typical strength would not cut it. The mutation powered up his strength naturally.

I'll repeat myself one more time. You're wrong. Reed's powers do not give him an Agility or Strength boost, Marvel itself has stated officially that his Agility and Strength are those of a normal human of average ability. What he does is power stunts off of his powers and just like Magneto does not have Unearthly Strength just because his powers can lift over a 100 tons Reed does not have Excellent Strength or Remarkable Agility just because his powers can fake it. No matter how much you want to inflate the character's stats because you like it it simply does not have those stats (just like everyone that keeps writing just about every Transformer with Amazing+ Reason is dead wrong, just because they're robotic lifeforms does not make all of them super-geniuses).

Again, even Marvel's official write-up for him makes it clear he doesn't have those stats, he has powers that fake it, just like a character with Good Agility and an Amazing Danger Sense can fake an Amazing Agility for defensive dodging actions and fake an Amazing Intuition for Initiative even if he's only got a Typical one. The power is faking it, it's not actually giving him those stats. You'll not find a single scene where Reed's actually displaying those stats without his powers involved, because he doesn't have those stats he's got powers that give the illusion of it.

When your powers are part of your physical body, they should be reflected in FASERIP.

Marvel has its share of continuity errors and mistakes. The game is no exception.

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Taarna
When your powers are part of your physical body, they should be reflected in FASERIP.

Marvel has its share of continuity errors and mistakes. The game is no exception.

I don't agree with that. Mister Fantastic's powers already do an awful lot for him physically. Increasing his FASE scores because of a physical power would make him more durable in how much damage he can soak up, but his power already does this for him because of it's elasticity providing him effectively body armor.

He's able to dodge attacks not because he's agile but because of how his power allows him to stretch and bend in unusual ways, so in this case his elasticity power rank can substitute for Agility when dodging... and he's resilient to getting hit already in case his dodge fails. But let's say someone hits him with an effect that negates his stretching and elasticity powers. Does he lose his agility to? ONLY in that he can't use his powers to dodge; his actual Agility would remain unchanged.

If he was intended to have a higher Agility rank along with his powers, then he would have been given a higher Agility rank, like Spider-Man who has an Amazing danger sense power that lets him dodge attacks but also an Amazing Agility because even when his danger sense is negated he's still that agile.

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Taarna
When your powers are part of your physical body, they should be reflected in FASERIP.

That would be false. This case for example, Reed's Agility represents his natural agility WITHOUT his powers doing anything or substituting, and his natural agility is NOT Olympic class and has NEVER been shown being that exceptional. Reed makes power feats to dodge because his POWERS are doing the work NOT his agility, because he's not that agile.

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Taarna
Marvel has its share of continuity errors and mistakes. The game is no exception.

While that may be so THIS isn't either of those. That's the kind of logic you see out of a conspiracy nut, when they go 'some conspiracies are real so this conspiracy must be real' when it's not. Some mistakes exist, this is not one of them. Reed has always been shown to have normal human stats, he's never been shown having the stats you want him to have. That's because he doesn't have said stats, he's got powers that fake it and when it's the powers doing it it's NOT him doing it. All the examples you can give it's always Reed's powers that are actually doing things, it's not Reed doing it. If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.