There are obvious similarities between my Martial Supremacy re-write, Nightmask's expansion of the power and the conclusions reached by Redman II.

Before I get into the information in the link, which I appreciate, I wanted to address a few things:

1. If my re-write of the Martial Supremacy power allows for an overpowered hero, then The Ultimate Martial Artist archetype attributed to Gary Hall, Tormain, Ty States, and Aunt Petunia also allows for an overpowered hero, as it is possible to roll a hero with Excellent Strength, Focus Energy (up to +3CSto Strength), Chi (+1CS to Strength), and any of the specialized attacks which provide a +2CS to damage also hit at Shift-X. The +1CS to Strength provided by Chi, must be done through a Power Stunt, but that is easily done through Karma expenditure. Excellent Strength… +3CS for Focus Energy… +1CS for Chi… +2CS for any one of the Special Martial Artist attacks that give a +2CS to damage… Shift-X. Day 1. Boom… or… Excellent Strength… +3CS for Focus Energy… +1CS for Chi… +Hyper-Attack — roll three attacks into one, which receives a +2CS to damage… Shift-X. Day 1. Ka-Boom.

2. There is a lot of information in my re-write. The information, though extensive, is very basic. The most complex mechanics of the entire re-write require nothing more than carrying a one. It merely requires some reading, and the Reading Comprehension Talent.

3. Modeled characters could become overpowered as a result of modeling a character and gifting the modeled character a combination of the Martial Supremacy Powers within my re-write. No kidding. That’s exactly what the Advanced Player’s Book author warns of:

Quote
Advanced Player's Book
There is a tendency for all players to "overrate" their individuals.

The author offers a pair of fixes:

Quote
Advanced Player's Book
1. keep this in mind: a super-powerful character requires super-powerful foes, and the stakes go up as you progress in power. And

2. The Judge may review a character's abilities, and downgrade them at his option.

At the risk of translating English to English, allow me to simplify: upgrade/change the bad guys or downgrade the good guys.

As to the link to Nightmask’s post on the forum, it is obvious that I’m not the only one to reach the conclusions of adding Martial Supremacy Power Ranks to Strength for damage or to Fighting for a chance to hit. Whether done as a Power Stunt (requires a check) or as mechanics defined within a power (requires a check), the mechanics, calculations, and results are indistinguishable.

The standard adjustment, and the one that many seem to be more psychologically comfortable with, is a CS for Talents. My re-write is an attempt to give the Martial Supremacy Power legitimacy, by giving it a substantive definition, differentiating the sub-types (A-E) from one another and by granting it combat bonuses beyond what the Martial Arts Talents allow, thereby distinguishing them from and elevating them above their Talent counterparts.

Where Nightmask and Redman II did not actually re-define the power, they did add Power Stunts with mechanics identical to a few of mine.

Fighting Accuracy:

Quote
Nightmask
For example Warfare possesses Remarkable Fighting ability and Remarkable Martial Arts Supremacy in Martial Art B, resulting in a net Fighting rank of Amazing in unarmed combat instead of Incredible rank compared to a regularly trained Martial Artist.

Quote
Redman II
Increased Fighting Rank: In its most common form, Martial Arts Supremacy adds it power rank to the character’s Fighting rank for purposes of determining the character’s success at striking foes in melee combat.

Brymin: Martial Arts A - Success means subsequent attacks against that opponent are performed at Fighting Rank Number + Martial Arts Supremacy Rank Number.

Martial Arts B - Success means all unarmed Fighting FEATs, including Evasion, against that opponent in the present Round and all subsequent Rounds are performed at Fighting Rank Number + Martial Arts B Rank Number + Martial Supremacy Rank Number.

Damage Boost:

Quote
Nightmask
Add the power rank number to strength to determine damage inflicted in combat, as well as allow them to strike on either the blunt or edged columns due to their training. Some GM may choose to allow a minimum of +1CS to the damage from Strength if the power rank number of MAS doesn’t allow for a full CS or better but this is up to individual GM whether they feel that someone should benefit from a full CS to damage when the power rank number fails to allow for such an increase in damage.

Quote
Redman II
Enhanced Damage: Martial Arts Supremacy may be used to augment the character’s normal amount of damage inflicted by unarmed combat (or weapon), adding its power rank to the usual damage rating.

Brymin: Martial Arts A — damage modified by Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts A Rank Number and resolve Attack results on Edged Attack Column.

Martial Arts B - Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts B Rank Number Damage.

So, I’m not the only one that believes adding the Power Rank of a Martial Arts power to Strength for calculated damage is a good interpretation of the power. Whether or not the method is through a Power Stunt or an inherent mechanic, is irrelevant when the mechanics and outcomes are identical.

Thanks to the dissent, I was able to make a few changes to the Martial Supremacy Re-write, and I am much happier with it now. Thanks for the opinions.

I would make a few changes to my own definition:

Martial Arts A: The Power can only be triggered by a raw die roll, not a die roll modified by Karma. The subsequent check to the trigger, however, can be modified by Karma.

Martial Arts B: 1) The "check" to activate the power cannot be modified by Karma. It either works or it doesn't.
2) The Fighting Accuracy Bonus of the power should be Fighting + Martial Supremacy Rank Number

Martial Arts C: 1) Allow the hero to substitute Fighting in lieu of Strength for a Grappling Attempt.
2) Delete the shift Green Results +1 color shift bonus.
3) Grappling attempts calculations: Strength (or Fighting) + Martial Supremacy (Can be modified by the Wrestling Talent)
4) Grappling damage calculations: Strength + Martial Arts C (Or +1CS Strength, whichever is higher).

I wouldn't change a thing on the Martial Arts D or E definitions.

To address concerns of creating an out-of-the-box world breaker, I would add the following note within the Power Definition:

To stay within the spirit of the rule in the Advanced Player's Book "Unless noted otherwise, no ability may be modified in any fashion below Feeble or above Monstrous", PC's, which would have abilities modified beyond Monstrous (85) as a result of the Martial Supremacy mechanics, can choose to reduce the Power Rank of the applicable Martial Supremacy Power, the applicable Primary Ability, or a combination thereof.

Easy, peezy, lemon squeezie.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2015 02:30PM by Brymin.

After playing with a few of characters with Martial Supremacy, I made significant changes to the A and B variants of this power. I feel these changes have made these variants of Martial Supremacy far more useful, gratifying and just plain fun. Critiques are welcome, but if you are not willing to experiment with the powers and mechanics before rendering critique, your words are that of an expert swimmer who has never been in a pool.

Martial Arts A – Once a hero with this form of Martial Supremacy lands a heavy blow on an opponent, he smells blood and becomes far more deadly. A raw die roll that scores a Slam or Stun triggers this version of Martial Arts Supremacy. In an unarmed attack subsequent to which a PC scores a Slam or Stun on an opponent, perform a check at Martial Supremacy Power Rank. Success means the following attack against that opponent is performed at Fighting Rank + Martial Supremacy Rank for damage modified by Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts A Rank Number. This can result in periods of highly modified damage and can even carry over into subsequent rounds.

• Each Martial Supremacy Attack must be preceded by the trigger
• The attack roll result (regardless of applied Karma) must be a Slam or Stun to trigger this variant of Martial Supremacy
• Resolve Martial Supremacy A Attacks on the Edged Attack Column
• Kills Results do not trigger Martial Supremacy A Bonuses

• Example: Iron Wolf has a Fighting Rank of Remarkable, Strength of Excellent and has Martial Arts Supremacy of Incredible and Martial Arts A of Remarkable.

o Round 1 – Iron Wolf is in a fight with Scorpion and, after the appropriate Fighting check, attacks the villain twice in one Round. His first roll results in a Slam, which Scorpion resists. The Slam result triggers Iron Wolf’s Martial Supremacy A Power. The player makes a check at Martial Supremacy Rank of Incredible and rolls a Green Result. Iron Wolf’s following attack is rolled at Spectacular (70) Intensity (Fighting Rank Number (30) + Martial Supremacy Power Rank Number (40) = 70) for Amazing (50) Edged Attack Damage (Strength Rank Number (20) + Martial Arts A Power Rank Number (30) = 50). Rolling under Spectacular Intensity Fighting, Iron Wolf scores a Yellow Result, which Stuns Scorpion for 1 Round, and also triggers Iron Wolf’s Martial Supremacy again. Because Iron Wolf is out of attacks this Round, the Martial Supremacy check is rolled in the subsequent Round.

o Round 2 – Iron Wolf is in combat with a downed opponent and automatically wins the Initiative. The player rolls the Martial Supremacy check and comes up White (fails)! The PC’s Fighting Rank and Damage output are unmodified in this first attack, but the player’s first roll is a Slam, triggering Iron Wolf’s Martial Supremacy power. The player rolls a check and fails. Boo! No bonus. The next attack roll is Red, a stun easily resisted by Scorpion, but the Red Result triggers the Martial Supremacy Power again. This time the player spends Karma to ensure a successful check. The following attack on poor, downed Scorpion is rolled at Spectacular Fighting for Amazing Edged Damage for a Yellow Result, stunning the villain for yet another Round. Iron Wolf has conducted the maximum number Fighting FEATs this round and the Martial Supremacy check must again be performed in the following round.

o Round 3 - Iron Wolf’s Yellow Result in the last round, resulted in Scorpion being Stunned again in this round. The PC automatically won the initiative and spends Karma on his Martial Supremacy check: Success! The following attack Roll Result is Red! This is a Kill (gasp)! Scorpion’s Endurance check fails and he begins losing Endurance Ranks. Iron Wolf is forced to provide first aid until relieved by emergency services workers.

Optional Power: Regeneration






Martial Arts B – This form of Martial Supremacy accesses the power of the mind to amplify a PC’s Fighting accuracy. If the PC’s Psyche is not at least Excellent, elevate it to Excellent. It includes the bonus power of Iron Will at Psyche Rank. Maximum number of Martial Supremacy B Attacks per Round is determined by the PC’s Psyche, instead of Fighting.

In the non-combat phase of each Round perform a check at Martial Supremacy Rank. If the PC is engaged with multiple enemies, the player must conduct a check modified –1CS per additional opponent to a maximum of –3CS. Only one check is done per group of combatants. Success means all unarmed Fighting FEATs, including Evasion, against a specific, declared opponent(s) in the present Round are performed at Fighting Rank Number + Psyche Rank Number = Effective Fighting Intensity. Though the Fighting Intensity is elevated, the PC’s maximum number of simultaneous actions receives no bonus and is calculated at the base Psyche Rank. While Martial Supremacy is active the actual Fighting attacks are not penalized the standard -1CS for simultaneous Fighting FEATs. The PC receives no bonus for the Martial Arts B Talent for Martial Supremacy Attacks, as the Martial Arts B Talent’s effects are taken into account within this definition of the Martial Arts B Power. If the Martial Supremacy check fails, the PC receives the Martial Arts B Talent +1CS to hit bonus and all other Fighting Talent bonuses are calculated normally.

Damage is variable upon the raw die roll Color Result. Karmic expenditure does not trigger damage bonuses.
• Green Results +1CS Strength Damage

• Yellow Results = Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts B Rank Number or Strength Rank +2CS, whichever is higher
o Slam distances doubled

• Red Results Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts B Rank Number +1CS or Strength Rank +3CS, whichever is higher
o Stun duration doubled
o Opponent Resists Stun at -1CS Endurance

• Example – Stone Hand is engaged with Blackout and Deathwatch. Our hero has Excellent (20) Fighting, Excellent (20) Strength, Fantastic (60) Martial Supremacy, Incredible (40) Martial Arts B, and Remarkable (30) Psyche.
•

o Round 1 – Stone Hand originally decided on a pair of melee attacks, 1 apiece for the villains, but the hero loses the Initiative. Stone Hand changes his roll with a Yellow Agility FEAT, then makes a check at Martial Supremacy Rank -1CS (the penalty is due to multiple attackers.) His check Result is Green and Stone Hand Evades Blackout at Amazing (50) Intensity, which was calculated as Remarkable (30) Psyche + Excellent (20) Fighting for Amazing (50) Intensity Fighting. Deathwatch lands a blow for Remarkable (30) Slugfest Damage. Stone Hand’s Iron Will absorbs 20 points of damage from the blow. Ten points of Damage are calculated normally, and resetting the Iron Will for next round takes another 10 points from Stone Hand’s Health.

o Round 2 – Stone Hand decides on a pair of attacks again, this time winning the Initiative and successfully conducts a Remarkable Intensity Psyche Check (Yellow Result) for the two planned melee attacks. The Martial Supremacy Check at Amazing (Fantastic -1CS) is Green, which elevates his Fighting Accuracy to Amazing (50). Stone Hand’s attack on Blackout produces a Yellow Result. The slugfest damage is calculated as Strength Rank Number (20) + Martial Arts B Rank Number (40) for Fantastic (60) Blunt Attack Damage. The Slam is irresistible, which results in a Grand Slam. The Slam distance of 6 Areas is doubled, launching the villain 12 Areas and through a wall. Stone Hand’s attack on Deathwatch produces a Red Result. The slugfest damage is calculated as Strength Rank Number (20) + Martial Arts B Rank Number (40) +1CS for Spectacular (65) Blunt Attack Damage. Deathwatch’s Endurance is Remarkable with a -1CS Penalty for the Stun Check, returning a Green Result. Unfortunately for the villain, the Attack Intensity necessitating the Stun Check is Spectacular, which makes the Stun irresistible. A 1d10 roll produces a 1, which is doubled for a 2 Round Stun. Stone Hand can effectively tee off on Deathwatch for the next 2 Rounds while he waits for Blackout to return to the fight from his recent 12 Area flight.

Bonus Power: Iron Will at Psyche Rank

Minor rant

With the prissy way you started your last post ("Critiques are welcome, but if you are not willing to experiment with the powers and mechanics before rendering critique, your words are that of an expert swimmer who has never been in a pool" makes you sound like an utter ****, and is off putting) I'm not sure if you really want feed back or not: I will assume you do as you say you do, and I will assume you don't just want to have platform to show of your own 'brilliance' (*sarcasm*). if you don't want feedback, and just want a platform to post your ideas, please don't say its welcome in future.

Ok rant over - now to get to the point of your post


I quite like your M-arts A rules mechanic though I am not into your flavor text: I see Mart-A as simulating the 'internal' martial arts like aikido or judo, and they are usually portrayed as being less aggressive and using an opponents strength against themselves - but each to their own.

I dont see the rational for the increase in psyche on M-arts B, or why it suddenly includes Iron will as a free power. seems a bit OTT to me for a single power slot. As for the way you have written up the power, seems overwrought to me. Have you actually tried this at the gaming table? how did your players respond to this? In my games house rules Martial supremacy on Marts-B is a fairly straight forward 'adds onto your fighting stat'. no need for additional rules and the players liked it fine.

I would be very interested in hearing your take on the application of Martial Supremacy on Marts-C,D & E though; the 'A' version you posted has real merit (IMO of course).

Minor rant indeed.

Well allow me to retort. Prissy? Not me. I'm a tough guy. grrrrr Brilliance? Why, thank you, young man! *obligatory sarcasm note*... I'll bet the girls just swoon over your scathing, caustic wit. You complete me.

It was just an attempt to analogize the critiques of those who had never or would never try the variations out as written. It's a little frustrating to put in the work and not be able to tweak things because no one would at least try it out. Obviously there were 5 variations and I had just written them and they were a bit raw and needed tweaking and without direct play and then some feedback it required much more time on my part. So, yes, it was an actual request for a critique, but I did want a someone to directly experience my rendition of Martial Supremacy first.

Martial Supremacy A - The original way I had written this up seemed fair and fine to me as a legendary kung-fu master with this power would be pretty bad ass. But at the higher levels (Spiderman) levels it became overpowered pretty quickly. At the Wonderman levels it was unstoppable (nearly). So, I changed quite a bit and I, too, am happy with this rule set. I've seen it in action against large groups and single combat. And sometimes it misses completely. A Kill roll won't make it proc, and a PC can never use this power on his opening attack. So, it has about a 30-45% (dependent on Fighting Rank) chance to proc with each roll, but once it HAS proc'd and IS active it only has about a 20-30% chance to proc again. It can be pretty funny from a judge's perspective to see it miss a few times or fail to proc completely. It's usually Roll... Proc... Check... BIG HIT! Roll... Proc... Check fail! Roll... No Proc... Roll... Proc... Check... BIG HIT!! Fight over! If you like to play craps, you would love this power.

Martial Supremacy B - I made the changes because the original narrative and mechanics were EFFING OP'd! It was a little...stupid as I had originally written it. I agree the most recent narrative "prangs" a bit. I wanted a way to include strength of will to augment the PC's fighting abilities, which it does. It also was a way to slow a PC's advancement into the Eternal level, as there are several attributes to advance in order to become a great Martial Supremacy B hero [Fighting, Psyche, Strength, Martial Supremacy, and Martial Arts B]. It would be quite difficult to generate a great "straight out of the box" PC that is a great Martial Supremacy B Fighter from day one. Finally, it was an attempt to further differentiate the "B" variant from the "A" variant, which the narrative and mechanics do quite well, but perhaps not quite as smoothly as I would like.

The Talent listing for Martial Arts B says it includes disciplines such as boxing. I would say kick-boxing wouldn't be very far away. I would say the "B" form uses the strength of the PC's mind to concentrate large amounts of energy behind each punch. The accuracy bonus (Fighting + Psyche) could be viewed as a split-second's concentration to ensure your blow lands... Yea, it still prangs a bit... But, it is greatly differentiated from Martial Supremacy A.

Okay, so the rationale for the increase in Psyche is twofold:

1. Psyche is an integral part of the Martial Supremacy B mechanics. If you roll a PC with Typical or Poor Psyche, the associated rank numbers are not going to be enough of a boost to the PC's Fighting to shift into the next Fighting Rank, making part of the power useless for a "day one PC".

2. The simultaneous actions limit for a Martial Supremacy B PC is limited by his Psyche, not his Fighting. So, the PC would not even be able to perform 2 Martial Supremacy B FEATs in one round until attaining Excellent Psyche. The fact that 2 simultaneous actions in one round is listed as a Remarkable Intensity FEAT, means that a PC with Martial Supremacy B and Excellent Psyche would need a Red Psyche check just to pull off 2 in one round. In my mind, if a PC can't even do 2 FEATs of what is probably his defining power in one round, then he's not very super, or martial artist-y. lol

Iron Will as a bonus: I guess I could change that to an optional power. I have seen some debate here as to whether Bonus Powers should count against a PC's total number of powers. From the Expert Powers Book:
This is a power that is automatically
included as part of the package with
certain other powers.The hero must
take a stated bonus power and place
it in one of his remaining power slots.
If none are available, he must discard
an already chosen power or the power
to which the bonus power is attached.

So, maybe it is a bit generous to include Iron Will as a Bonus Power, but if it takes up a slot it makes no actual difference whether it is a Bonus or Optional Power. I think most players that would like to play a Martial Supremacy character are definitely going to want some type of defense. Berserker includes some pretty big bonuses and Iron Will and it is a 1 slot power. I guess this could be a two slot power or show Iron Will as an optional power.

Martial Supremacy B was honestly not quite as fun to play or watch as Martial Supremacy A. Sometimes it seems like an "auto-win" power and sometimes it doesn't proc at all during a 2 round fight. It can be pretty funny to see the disappointment on a player's face when Stone Hand (the Martial Supremacy B hero) whiffs for two rounds after spending Karma to ensure the activation of the power, contributes very little to a fight, and when the dust clears all the other players are like, "What did you say that guy's power was again?" And then in the very next fight that same PC will save the entire party. It definitely has its ups and downs.

I have yet to play or see played a PC with Martial Supremacy C or D. I have just done a few experiments and quick battles to test it. Maybe you could oblige me and roll one street level PC and maybe a Spiderman level PC and test the mechanics of each so I can tweak them.

I play a PC with Martial Supremacy E, who carries a spear and has the Weapons Master and Sharp Weapons Talents. I added the Martial Supremacy E Power through advancement, but I didn't have enough Karma to purchase Power Ranks above Typical for Martial Supremacy and Martial Arts E. The Initiative bonus is nice! And with Spectacular Fighting, this PC would normally only be allowed 3 attacks per round with his spear, but he is capable of 4 with a Green Fighting check, 5 with a Yellow and 6 with a Red. It comes in handy when fighting some DB with TI (if you use the original mechanics in the original narrative).

It makes it a bit of a tough choice with this PC when electing a blunt attack with the shaft of the spear or a sharp attack with the spear's blade. The blunt attack carries the +1CS Damage Bonus, but the number of attacks are considerably less, as the Martial Supremacy E mechanics are calculated:
Blunt Attacks:
Spectacular Fighting (75) shifted by applicable talents to Monstrous (77) + Martial Supremacy Typical (6) + Martial Arts E Typical (6) = Wondrous (89) This makes him capable of performing 3 attacks automatically, 4 with a Yellow Fighting check and 5 with a Red. All with a +1CS Damage Bonus

Sharp Attacks:
Spectacular Fighting (75) shifted by applicable talents to Wondrous (87) + Martial Supremacy Typical (6) + Martial Arts E Typical (6) = Unearthly (99). This makes him capable of performing 3 attacks automatically, 4 with a Green Fighting check, 5 with a Yellow, and 6 with a Red. But no Damage Bonus...

Did I forget to mention I use a modified simultaneous actions table? lol Why? Because the table under column A is too restrictive at low levels and too generous at high levels. So I use my own:

RM 2 / AM, FN, SP 3 / MN, WN 4 / UN 5 / SHX 6 / SHY 7 / SHZ 8

Some of us are experienced enough with the game and its rules that we can form opinions without having to try something new out. Also, you yourself stated that you were happier with your revisions after the critiques, implying that you weren't as satisfied as you could be and that those critiques from people who didn't try out your version still helped you.

I'd have to agree that you're sending out mixed messages with your welcoming critiques but only under your terms. And how would you know if anyone is actually trying it out? I could just say "Yes, my group tested it out and we hate your system. Try again." Would you actually give that more credence than the previous opinions that explained what it was about the way you rewrote the power that wasn't liked?

That said, I'm not going to lie to you and say I tried this out. Here's my problem with it: it seems like you're trying to reinvent the wheel by doing too much with the power. It would be like if I decided to rewrite the weather control power and added all of the power stunts as automatic bonus powers that activate with each use of the power, plus throw on an extra power just because.

Example: Character uses weather control on target. Lightning deals power rank damage, the target must make a slam check due to the excessive winds & suffers a -1CS penalty on attacks due to temperature extremes and/or rain. Additionally, controlling the weather requires great willpower and so the character gains the Iron Will power at the same rank as Weather Control. This is not a power stunt, all effects happen simultaneously whenever the power is used.


I feel confident enough with my game experience that I could read this and know, without ever trying it out, that this does not belong in my game and why? Because it gives too much to the power, throwing it severely out of balance with other powers.

A critique under my terms? Yes, that's what I wanted. So what? I wanted feedback both logical and factual, not whimsical editorials. It would sure be less work for you to just read through and not respond rather than saying, "I read it and think it is blah, blah, blah based on my experience which is zero with this particular power set, and still yet I feel like responding just because I can to tell you that I can and to tell you that I would never try out these powers... etc"

Thanks. Wonderful. You have the freedom to opine without being any help at all. I get it.

I found the critiques (even yours as it made me streamline 2 of the variants) somewhat useful, yes. But it wasn't until I saw the Power Sets played or played them directly myself that I was able to observe some of this issues and correct them. If you'll notice the changes that I proposed after our last exchange and the final revision were vastly different.

Whether a group tried it out and said they "hated" it, I would lend more credence to it if they could say why with specific examples. If the reason was they thought it was too complicated, I would probably just assume they aren't very bright, as it isn't complicated.

I think the Player's Book and the rules for the whole universe are a bit too simplistic (not simple), but simplistic, and could use some more fleshing out. I play with modified rules for combat. I think the description in the UPB for Martial Supremacy is, well....stupid. This PC can split battleships in half, but can only do +1CS Damage and only through a Power Stunt, because people get confused otherwise.

I found your example incongruous and obtuse. Perhaps you were being hyperbolic, but it's really hard to tell.

*edited for typos*

Brymin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
*snip by me*

> Martial Supremacy B -

*snip again*

> It would be quite
> difficult to generate a great "straight out of the
> box" PC that is a great Martial Supremacy B
> Fighter from day one. Finally, it was an attempt
> to further differentiate the "B" variant from the
> "A" variant, which the narrative and mechanics do
> quite well, but perhaps not quite as smoothly as I
> would like.

-----

OK, I have not had the same experience of that - I have had several great Marts characters in games in the past created from scratch, but to be fair our creation rules are house ruled a little (its not 100% random) - so not a problem for our group(s); but house rules.

----

>
> The Talent listing for Martial Arts B says it
> includes disciplines such as boxing. I would say
> kick-boxing wouldn't be very far away. I would
> say the "B" form uses the strength of the PC's
> mind to concentrate large amounts of energy behind
> each punch. The accuracy bonus (Fighting +
> Psyche) could be viewed as a split-second's
> concentration to ensure your blow lands... Yea,
> it still prangs a bit... But, it is greatly
> differentiated from Martial Supremacy A.
>

-----------

fair enough - I don't agree exactly but I certainly see your POV

-------

> Okay, so the rationale for the increase in Psyche
> is twofold:
>
> 1. Psyche is an integral part of the Martial
> Supremacy B mechanics. If you roll a PC with
> Typical or Poor Psyche, the associated rank
> numbers are not going to be enough of a boost to
> the PC's Fighting to shift into the next Fighting
> Rank, making part of the power useless for a "day
> one PC".
>
> 2. The simultaneous actions limit for a
> Martial Supremacy B PC is limited by his Psyche,
> not his Fighting. So, the PC would not even be
> able to perform 2 Martial Supremacy B FEATs in one
> round until attaining Excellent Psyche. The fact
> that 2 simultaneous actions in one round is listed
> as a Remarkable Intensity FEAT, means that a PC
> with Martial Supremacy B and Excellent Psyche
> would need a Red Psyche check just to pull off 2
> in one round. In my mind, if a PC can't even do 2
> FEATs of what is probably his defining power in
> one round, then he's not very super, or martial
> artist-y. lol
>

-----

I use the ultimate powers book ( 'UPB' ) - I don't recall any mention of Psyche in Martial Supremacy - are you using different core rules to me? or is the addition of psyche in your games a house rule? Or are you saying you decided to add the psyche in for this set of rules in this thread (I think you are but its not 100% clear to me)? : - in which case you bring back to my original question. Why add Psyche into the mix at all for Martial supremacy? the Rules as written ( 'UPB' ) don't require it ( as I recall), so why add it? seems unnecessary to me I am afraid. making the power stronger for no good reason. I would be concerned that players who think 'balance' is important would feel it was an unfair power with your rules - though you indicate it is not the auto-win-win-every-time it seems .

--

>
*snip by me*
>


I'm still interested in your ideas for Marts C,D & E though - if you care to develop them further?

Brymin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have the freedom to opine without being any
> help at all.
>
> I found the critiques (even yours as it made me
> streamline 2 of the variants) somewhat useful, yes.


I found "without being any help at all" and "somewhat useful" to be a quite funny dichotomy. Thank you for this morning's laugh.

I will add, however, that any and all critiques are going to come off as unfair to you because we're looking at an example in a vacuum. You say you play with modified rules for combat. Well, unless all of us who might engage you on this issue are playing with the same house rules, then our experience will differ from your's. I'm sorry if I'm not willing to change all the rules of my game just to test the rules of your game, so all analysis of it is based on the rules as written and how it fits into that.

Maybe from now on instead of complaining that people need to try your rule before they give an opinion, state outright that you are playing with modified combat rules and explain what those modifications are.

I'm no newbie to the game mechanics, I don't need to experience them to understand how they will play out. However, I can't meet your demand anyway since any attempt to use your proposed martial arts supremacy in a standard game would only justify the things I've already said. So instead of whining about people needing to try it first, how about you at least provide the proper context of your house rules so that the proposed change can be critiqued in the proper light?

I'm not against house rules and changes, and I've recently changed the grappling rules in my own game word-for-word with your modifications because I like it. That doesn't mean I'll like or approve of all your changes, but without the proper context of your changes it would be difficult for anyone to give you positive feedback.

Thrudjelmer:

Quote

I found "without being any help at all" and "somewhat useful" to be a quite funny dichotomy. Thank you for this morning's laugh.

Well, I aim to please

1. The modified combat mechanics I made for my game are not necessary to play any of the Martial Supremacy variants that I created in order to get a feel for my Martial Supremacy rendition.

2. It is impossible to know how the Martial Supremacy mechanics will play out without actually doing it. I understand your opinion on the subject. I'm not dismissing your tabletop gaming experience that you are using to draw a conclusion to form an opinion. I am merely saying without the act of playing, the opinion is notional; not factual.

Yes, I really, really, really, really want you to at least try out one of the variants and then render an opinion.

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NikMak
I use the ultimate powers book ( 'UPB' ) - I don't recall any mention of Psyche in Martial Supremacy - are you using different core rules to me? or is the addition of psyche in your games a house rule? (I think you are but its not 100% clear to me)? : - in which case you bring back to my original question. Why add Psyche into the mix at all for Martial supremacy? the Rules as written ( 'UPB' ) don't require it ( as I recall), so why add it? seems unnecessary to me I am afraid. making the power stronger for no good reason. I would be concerned that players who think 'balance' is important would feel it was an unfair power with your rules - though you indicate it is not the auto-win-win-every-time it seems .

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NikMak
Or are you saying you decided to add the psyche in for this set of rules in this thread

I was saying I decided to add Psyche in for this set of rules in this thread for Martial Supremacy B. As to why: my goal was to differentiate MS-B from MS-A and make the B variant dependent on and augmented by Psyche... It is NOT an autowin power...hahaha. Not even close. It was in my initial variant located on the first page of this thread. It was insanely overpowered. Now, not so much... It can be a bit frustrating if the color results just aren't happening and your PC is not hitting those bonuses.

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NikMak
I'm still interested in your ideas for Marts C,D & E though - if you care to develop them further?

I have a Martial Arts E PC that I have played for a while and I like it quite a bit. The C&D variants on the first page of this thread are available for your perusal. I have a feeling that the C variant is OP'd, but I have yet to play it. I'm not sure the D variant has enough "meat" to it.

Brymin Wrote:
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>

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NikMak
> I'm still interested in your ideas for Marts C,D &
> E though - if you care to develop them further?
>

>
> I have a Martial Arts E PC that I have played for
> a while and I like it quite a bit. The C&D
> variants on the first page of this thread are
> available for your perusal. I have a feeling that
> the C variant is OP'd, but I have yet to play it.
> I'm not sure the D variant has enough "meat" to
> it.

Sorry, I had forgotten about the conversation at the start if the thread. If/when you make changes I look forward to hearing about them.

Brymin Wrote:
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> I was saying I decided to add Psyche in for this
> set of rules in this thread for Martial Supremacy
> B. As to why: my goal was to differentiate MS-B
> from MS-A and make the B variant dependent on and
> augmented by Psyche.


You mean like how most ranged attack powers are dependent on Agility and so have a bonus power function that boosts Agility so that the power isn't hampered? Except that isn't how other powers work. If Psyche is that important to the Martial Arts B version of Martial Supremacy, then the power should stand as is with the player being required to work on their Psyche rank or maybe don't make the power dependent on Psyche. Maybe instead of pushing the issue of adding Fighting and Psyche ranks, how about just add the Martial Supremacy rank to Fighting? But regardless, giving Iron Will as a bonus power still seems like overkill to me. I won't play this to justify my opinion; You are tacking on a whole extra power. If someone wants Iron Will on their Martial Supremacy power, then that should be acquired as a separate power... or, yes, I'll say it again... developed as a power stunt of the Martial Supremacy power with a negative column shift modifier.

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You mean like how most ranged attack powers are dependent on Agility and so have a bonus power function that boosts Agility so that the power isn't hampered? Except that isn't how other powers work.

True.. Obviously there was some special mechanics in play here, but I was pushing a bit too hard, I think.

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Maybe instead of pushing the issue of adding Fighting and Psyche ranks, how about just add the Martial Supremacy rank to Fighting?

Point taken. Right before I posted the change, I had the idea to use Psyche in order to differentiate "A" from "B" in a mechanistic way. But perhaps, because both types of arts are mainly striking arts, the mechanics should be more similar than I wanted.

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But regardless, giving Iron Will as a bonus power still seems like overkill to me. I won't play this to justify my opinion; You are tacking on a whole extra power. If someone wants Iron Will on their Martial Supremacy power, then that should be acquired as a separate power... or, yes, I'll say it again... developed as a power stunt of the Martial Supremacy power with a negative column shift modifier.

Okay, okay, okay... Iron Will should be either be an "Optional Power" or perhaps a Power Stunt at -XCS.

One question... Do you treat Bonus Powers as not taking a power slot? There was some debate on the subject buried deep in the threads.

Brymin Wrote:
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> One question... Do you treat Bonus Powers as not
> taking a power slot? There was some debate on the
> subject buried deep in the threads.

Bonus means just that bonus, as in doesn't cost you anything. If something costs you then it isn't a bonus. 'Buy one get one free' isn't free if you're also paying for the 'free' one as well. So it's a gross error whenever you see 'bonus power, automatically fills and uses up the next slot if you have no slots you get no bonus power' because that's not a bonus power that's a required power. It should read 'bonus power, automatically gets this power at no cost'. For which Iron Will wouldn't be a bonus power even a Martial Arts Master would still have to learn and develop it it's not going to be an automatic feature of being an ultimate master of a martial art.

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Bonus means just that bonus, as in doesn't cost you anything. If something costs you then it isn't a bonus. 'Buy one get one free' isn't free if you're also paying for the 'free' one as well. So it's a gross error whenever you see 'bonus power, automatically fills and uses up the next slot if you have no slots you get no bonus power' because that's not a bonus power that's a required power. It should read 'bonus power, automatically gets this power at no cost'.

Agreed, though I know this opinion is not shared by all.

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For which Iron Will wouldn't be a bonus power even a Martial Arts Master would still have to learn and develop it it's not going to be an automatic feature of being an ultimate master of a martial art

I present Toad from Five Deadly Venoms... haha... Toad had more of a Body Resistance than Iron Will. Berserker includes Iron Will at Berserker Power Rank while the PC is Berserk. Berserker is a single slot power. Martial Supremacy B could be a 2-slot power or include Iron Will as an Optional Power instead of a Bonus Power. No biggie to me either way. Thanks for opining.

I cleaned up Martial Supremacy C, bringing its output down bit and making its mechanics a bit more like the other Martial Supremacy variants. Thanks to NikMak, Thudjelmer, and Nightmask for your input.

Martial Arts C – This form of Martial Supremacy is probably the least sexy. Prior to each Grappling Attempt perform a check at Martial Supremacy Rank. Success means the PC’s Grappling Intensity is calculated as Strength Rank Number + Martial Supremacy Rank Number.

In the case of a PC with low Strength and high Fighting, the player can choose to substitute the PC’s Fighting en lieu of Strength for Grappling at a penalty of -2CS. The Fighting/Strength substitution must be decided upon during creation and cannot be changed. Grappling Intensity would be calculated as Fighting -2CS + Martial Supremacy Rank Number. The penalty is reduced to -1CS in the case of a PC with the Wrestling Talent, but does not stack with the Martial Arts C Talent, as the Martial Arts C Talent’s effects are taken into account within this definition of the Martial Arts C Power.

Grappling Damage is determined as follows: Strength Rank Number + Martial Arts C Rank Number (or Strength +1CS, whichever is greater).

Martial Supremacy C also grants bonuses to Agility FEATs for the purposes of Dodging as follows: Agility Rank Number (or other, i.e. Danger Sense) + Martial Arts C Rank Number = base Rank Number for Dodging, which can be increased by Talents.

Martial Supremacy C Power Stunts can only be performed after a successful Martial Supremacy Check and while the PC has an opponent in a hold. Power Stunts must be developed sequentially.

Potential Power Stunts:
• Strangulation – Opponent must resist with Endurance FEAT or lose consciousness until PC releases hold. A strangulation hold becomes harder to resist the longer it is applied, meaning each subsequent round the Endurance check is conducted at -1CS per Round.

• Dislocation – Opponent must resist with Endurance FEAT or suffer a dislocated large joint (knee, elbow, or shoulder) for 1d10 Rounds. All Fighting and Agility FEATs are performed at -4CS for -3CS damage.

• Bone Breaking – Red Result Always Needed for this Power Stunt. Opponent must resist with Endurance Check -2CS or suffer a major broken bone, resulting in all FASE losing -2CS to include associated loss of health.

• Example: Power Bomb is engaged with the Hobgoblin. Power Bomb has the Wrestling Talent and has Good (10) Strength, Incredible (40) Fighting and possesses Martial Supremacy at Remarkable (30) and Martial Arts C at Incredible (40).

o Round One Hobgoblin wins the Initiative and attacks with his razor bats, inflicting Good (10) Damage on the hero. Power Bomb attempts to tackle the Hobgoblin from his glider as the villain passes and performs a successful check at Martial Supremacy Rank. Power Bomb substitutes his Good (10) Strength for his Incredible (40) Fighting at –1CS for Remarkable (36), which is added to his Martial Supremacy (30) and results in a base Grappling Intensity of Spectacular (66). This is modified +2CS for Power Bomb’s Wrestling Talent to Wondrous (87). The player rolls 83, a Red Result. Hobgoblin is tackled from his glider and takes Amazing (50) Damage, calculated by adding Power Bomb’s Good (10) Strength to his Incredible (40) Martial Arts C. Subtracting 20 for Hobgoblin’s body armor, the villain receives 30 points of grappling damage.

o Round Two Hobgoblin again wins the Initiative and decides on an escape attempt. The villain fails to escape Power Bomb’s hold. Power Bomb decides to attempt a Strangulation Power Stunt. Through Karma expenditure, Power Bomb’s Power Stunt attempt is successful and Hobgoblin is forced to spend all of his Karma to resist the Strangulation hold.

o Round Three Power Bomb wins the Initiative this round and pours on the pressure with another Strangulation Power Stunt. This time Power Bomb only needs a Yellow Result for the Power Stunt, which is successful. Hobgoblin receives a penalty to his Endurance this Round versus the strangulation hold, making the Endurance Check impossible, resulting in a loss of consciousness. Victory!

Optional Power: Resist Physical Damage