Since I started playing Marvel many moons ago, something has always bothered me: combat.
I can't stand how combat is handled without taking into account the target.
For instance, I firmly believe Spider Man would be harder to hit than Aunt May,
and a fighter like Captain America should be able to block without using up an action.
That being said, I like the simplicity of Marvel's combat mechanics.

Taking all of this into account, I wanted to figure out a dice mechanic that still
felt like Marvel yet accounted for the skill and ability of the target.

This is what I have come up with...

Instead of simply rolling on the Universal Table for success or failure, compare
the attacker's intensity versus the intensity of the defender's defense. This will
be different for each combatant. If Captain America has a choice he will defend
using his Fighting, Spider Man with his Agility, and Quicksilver using his speed.
This determines what color result is needed to hit using the normal Marvel feat rules
(below rank = Green, Equal = yellow, up to +1CS Higher = Red).

For Example:

Captain America (MN Fighting with Martial Arts tries to hit Aunt May. She
decides to defend with her PR Agility. Cap needs a Green result to hit her.

He then decides to take on Silver Surfer. The Surfer decides to be graceful and
defend with his Agility (MN). MN vs MN = Yellow result.

Cap then takes on Thor and needs a Red result to make it through Thor's superior
defenses.


Now, you may be asking "But what about the actual effect of the attack, like Stuns
and slams?" To account for this, I've altered the Universal Table a bit (see the link).

Let's say Cap rolls a 36 in his epic battle with Aunt May. On the MN column, this is
a Green(Yellow) result. This means IF Cap hits, the effect of the attack is a Yellow result.

Against Silver Surfer he rolls a 51 which is a Yellow(Green) result. So IF he hits
it's a Green Result.

Against Thor he rolls a 95, Red(Yellow). He hits and it's a possible Stun.


You'll see that with some lower stats some Red effects are no longer possible;
Aunt May will never get a Slam result against Cap!

This does not preclude the use of normal defenses. A Dodge could still lower the attacker's column by up to -6CS which would GREATLY change the Attackers ability to hit.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2015 02:54PM by barna10.

The table messes with the numbers somewhat on potential for stuns and slams.

For example, Captain America with Monstrous Fighting (Amazing + Martial Arts B), would normally have a 35% chance of a slam
and a 15% chance of a stun under the original system. But with the modified table, against a foe of lesser skill, he only has a 30%
chance to Slam and a 11% chance to Stun.

Should we also adopt a similar system so that Strength higher than the opponent's Endurance forces the target to score higher on their
Endurance roll to avoid a Slam or Stun, while those whose Endurance is higher can more easily avoid it (if it's required at all because of
Martial Arts A or D in the case of Body Armor)?

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
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> The table messes with the numbers somewhat on
> potential for stuns and slams.
>
> For example, Captain America with Monstrous
> Fighting (Amazing + Martial Arts , would
> normally have a 35% chance of a slam
> and a 15% chance of a stun under the original
> system. But with the modified table, against a
> foe of lesser skill, he only has a 30%
> chance to Slam and a 11% chance to Stun.

This isn't correct, and that's mostly my fault. Against a lesser opponent, Cap would indeed score a Stun on a roll of 36-45.
However, using this alternate method, he'd choose to Stun or Slam a lesser opponent on a roll of 51 or higher. Does
this make combat much easier for characters with higher attack stats...yes, but why shouldn't it be that way? If I'm play
fighting with my kids, chances are pretty good I can toss them around at will. If I spar with my kids' Tae Kwon Do
instructor, chances are pretty good I'm a dead man.

>
> Should we also adopt a similar system so that
> Strength higher than the opponent's Endurance
> forces the target to score higher on their
> Endurance roll to avoid a Slam or Stun, while
> those whose Endurance is higher can more easily
> avoid it (if it's required at all because of
> Martial Arts A or D in the case of Body Armor)?

In short, yes. The Hulk should have an easier time resisting a Stun result from Aunt May than
if Thor smacked him.

This does not make sense to me.

212019156 Wrote:
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> This does not make sense to me.


How can I help it make sense?

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How can I help it make sense?


Keep it simple? Because I find that the simple play style of the Marvel system is one of it's greatest strengths.

Here's my take on the difficulty factor. Yes, it should be easier for Captain America to hit Aunt May than it would be for Aunt May to hit
Captain America. This is not only reflected in the columns they roll on, but also the fact that one of them can hit more times. Aunt May
can defend against an attack from one of the greatest fighters ever and possibly cause him to miss (and as a judge, I'd chalk it up
to a combination of luck & underestimating a lesser foe), but she can only defend once in a turn and then cannot even counter-attack.

Meanwhile, Captain America can defend against her Feeble attack with ease and also counter attack up to two times. If you have to start
comparing Fighting ranks to determine difficulty to hit or complicate the Universal Table to show how much better a fighter Captain America
is, then maybe you're just not using the system as it's presented or it it's best potential. But changing things up in this way seems like it
would slow down play in my opinion.


barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In short, yes. The Hulk should have an easier
> time resisting a Stun result from Aunt May than
> if Thor smacked him.

The ease of resistance comes in the form of 1) Aunt May can't stun him because she has neither the Strength nor the Martial Arts talents
necessary, and 2) if she possessed the talents to make her strength not an issue, the Hulk still has an easier time resisting her stuns in
that she cannot inflict a stun check as often as Thor could due to her very low Fighting rank. So yes, as it stands, Thor does already have
an easier time stunning the Hulk than Aunt May does.




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2015 12:57PM by Thrudjelmer.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> barna10 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How can I help it make sense?
>
>
> Keep it simple? Because I find that the simple
> play style of the Marvel system is one of it's
> greatest strengths.

....Isn't this exactly what this rule does? The attacker rolls once and this accounts for the defender's defense?

>
> Here's my take on the difficulty factor. Yes, it
> should be easier for Captain America to hit Aunt
> May than it would be for Aunt May to hit
> Captain America. This is not only reflected in
> the columns they roll on, but also the fact that
> one of them can hit more times.

Er...this is half the argument. It should be easier for Cap to hit Aunt May than it is for him to the Runner. Right now, he has the same chance to hit, slam, or stun each...also the same chance for him to hit the side of a house...it should also be harder for Aunt May to hit Cap than to hit an elderly gentleman in a wheelchair...

>Aunt May
> can defend against an attack from one of the
> greatest fighters ever and possibly cause him to
> miss (and as a judge, I'd chalk it up
> to a combination of luck & underestimating a
> lesser foe), but she can only defend once in a
> turn and then cannot even counter-attack.
>
> Meanwhile, Captain America can defend against her
> Feeble attack with ease and also counter attack up
> to two times.

Interesting house rule (characters must choose to attack OR defend, not mix and match, Advanced Players Book pgs 27 - 28)...but a bit more complicated than what I am presenting

> If you have to start
> comparing Fighting ranks to determine difficulty
> to hit or complicate the Universal Table to show
> how much better a fighter Captain America
> is, then maybe you're just not using the system as
> it's presented or it it's best potential. But
> changing things up in this way seems like it
> would slow down play in my opinion.
>

Er..the entire system is built around comparing ranks...failing to see how reusing similar mechanics in combat would slow things down. It's still only one roll to hit then you compare the result to the effects table...hardly complicated.

I've used the system, as written, for 3 decades. This used to not bother me, but now it's just TOO simple. I'd rather be able to actually make a Martial Arts hero that can survive in combat purely due to his Fighting skills instead of having to beef him up with Body Armor just so he can make it to round 2 versus normal thugs. This system is a great enhancement towards characters like Shang Chi or Iron Fist being able to hang with the big boys.

With the base system, a few normal thugs will beat the crap out of Cap in a few rounds. With my system Cap will beat the crap out of dozens of normal thugs, like he should.

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thrudjelmer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > Aunt May can defend against an attack from one
> > of the greatest fighters ever and possibly cause
> > him to miss (and as a judge, I'd chalk it up to a
> > combination of luck & underestimating a lesser foe),
> > but she can only defend once in a turn and then
> > cannot even counter-attack.
> >
> > Meanwhile, Captain America can defend against her
> > Feeble attack with ease and also counter attack up
> > to two times.
>
> Interesting house rule (characters must choose to
> attack OR defend, not mix and match, Advanced
> Players Book pgs 27 - 28)

It's a simple, easily workable house rule.

Quote
Advanced Player's Book, page 27:
Dodging is an Agility Ability, and reduces the attacking column shift. A character who is Dodging may move only half
his speed in any turn, may not engage in a charging attack, and may perform only one other action that turn, maximum
(including making an attack).

A character who is Dodging makes an Agility FEAT at the start of the turn, as soon as Initiative is determined. That
FEAT will determine the reduced effect of attacks on the character. The result may be no shift, a -2, -4, or -6CS shift
on any attacks stated in the first part of the round.

Quote
Advanced Player's Book, also on page 27:
Evading is an effective defensive tactic only against adjacent attackers, such as those engaged in Slugfest or wrestling
combat. Only a single opponent may be Evaded.

Quote
Advanced Player's Book, page 30:
Multiple Targets: A character may affect multiple targets by making a single attack that will affect multiple targets, or by
making separate attacks against the attackers.

Quote
Advanced Player's Book, also on page 30, with regard to multiple combat actions:
The above (multiple combat actions) applies to Slugfest attacks and Shooting only. Certain Powers may permit multiple
attacks as Power Stunts without invoking this rule.

The way I read it, you can Dodge and make a single attack, and an Evasion is only good against a single attack. I extend
the multiple actions rule to allow for multiple defenses, thus allowing someone to Dodge ranged attacks and Evade one
melee attack, or if they have more than one combat action, or make more than one Evasion attempt. I also allow players
to stack the benefits of multiple actions with multiple targets... thus, Captain America with his effectively Monstrous rank
Fighting can check for multiple attacks and get up to 3, then use 1 of them for evasions against all adjacent attackers and
follow up with 1 or 2 attacks against multiple targets, effectively allowing him to duck all the thugs and possibly knock them
out in a whirlwind of motion. Doing so is a decidedly harder effort than striking just one foe, however. After succeeding at
a multiple attacks roll, Cap gets a -1CS to each attack/Evasion plus an additional -4CS for attacking/Evading multiple targets
with each action, for a total of 3 actions with a -5CS penalty on each (putting him on the Good column).

The house rule is just extending attacks to combat actions in general. One Dodge / one attack or one Dodge / one Evade,
and any combination of attacks / Evasions up to the maximum number of actions they can perform. It maintains the standard
use of the Universal table, even if it does add a couple extra rolls in combat. In the end, my group felt it was a good way to
deal with people who have better reflexes while keeping the standard combat chances open, because they don't like the idea
of repeatedly facing foes who have higher Fighting ranks forcing them to spend Karma just to improve their own Fighting
(and/or Agility) just to compete with more combat-oriented villains.


> With the base system, a few normal thugs will
> beat the crap out of Cap in a few rounds. With
> my system Cap will beat the crap out of dozens
> of normal thugs, like he should.

With my house rule, Cap can beat a few normal thugs in just one or two rounds without modifying the Universal table or use of the same. If yours works better for you, then go for it. I like to keep changes simple.




Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2015 03:59PM by Thrudjelmer.

And this is simple?

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And this is simple?


Expanding combat actions covered by multiple actions to include Evade compared to reworking how the Universal Table works? Yes, that is simple.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> barna10 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And this is simple?
>
>
> Expanding combat actions covered by multiple
> actions to include Evade compared to reworking how
> the Universal Table works? Yes, that is simple.

I agree, but requiring the rolling of multiple combat actions to achieve what you could do in just one roll is not more simple. It also doesn't account for someone having a high Agility but low Fighting.

Yes, the more combat rolls isn't as simple, it's the change that is. My group has been playing with this variation since the 90s, however, and it hasn't made the game unplayable or really slowed down combat as a result. It's made combat more interesting by expanding options.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, the more combat rolls isn't as simple, it's
> the change that is. My group has been playing
> with this variation since the 90s, however, and it
> hasn't made the game unplayable or really slowed
> down combat as a result. It's made combat more
> interesting by expanding options.

Sounds good. I guess I'm left wondering how this house rule that works for you has any bearing on this one that I proposed?

I was addressing your suggestion that under the base rules that Captain America would be defeated by average thugs in a few turns, and how I handle the combat problem.

If I understand:
If the defender is surprised (not conscious of the attacker) then the normal rules apply (e.g. Cap makes a normal attack using Monstrous fighting using the normal chart (not your modified one).

If the defender is not surprised (is conscious of the attacker) he can always opt to have a passive defense of either his Fighting or Agility which is used as an intensity level to hit. So if Cap is punching Thor (Cap’s Monstrous fighting vs. Thor’s Unearthly fighting requires a red result to hit and if he rolls 86 to 94 it has a green effect, 95 to 99 has a yellow effect and 100 has a red effect.

If Thor decides to actively defend he would make his evasion roll as normal.

If Aunt May is punching Thor (Aunt May’s feeble fighting vs. Thor’s Unearthly fighting requires a red result (100) to hit and can only have a green effect.

If someone with Incredible fighting is punching Thor (Incredible fighting vs. Thor’s Unearthly fighting requires a red result to hit and if he rolls 91 to 97 it has a green effect, 98 to 99 has a yellow effect and 100 has a red effect.

Am applying your house rule properly?

If I am understanding it properly, I like it in concept but I think you would have to adjust the percentages on the chart further, which would end up changing it a lot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2015 07:02AM by 212019156.

212019156 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you are correct. How do you think the percentages would need to change? thanks

It just drastically reduces the chances of people hitting at all. For example in the normal rules someone with an Incredible fighting attacking someone with Amazing fighting would at least 70% of the time (31 to get a green). With your house rule They need a red to hit at all which about 10% of the time. That is a pretty huge difference. I mean Would someone with Amazing fighting be that much better than someone with Incredible fighting?

But again I think you are on to something.

Maybe a better solution would be to subtract column shifts instead. So in the above scenario the incredible fighter would subtract 1 rank because Amazing is 1 rank higher, and roll as if at Remarkable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2015 08:11AM by 212019156.

I actually experimented with column shifts, but it was difficult for people to handle (not me, but others....long story). This idea evolved from that.

And yes, I think a 10% chance of hitting someone better than you is realistic. Combats in the real world are often a ton of parries and feints. They are hardly two guys sitting there slugging each other over, and over, and over.....

think of a boxing match. Two world class boxers might land 10 or so good punches in 10 minutes!

barna10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually experimented with column shifts, but it
> was difficult for people to handle (not me, but
> others....long story). This idea evolved from
> that.
>
> And yes, I think a 10% chance of hitting someone
> better than you is realistic. Combats in the real
> world are often a ton of parries and feints. They
> are hardly two guys sitting there slugging each
> other over, and over, and over.....
>
> think of a boxing match. Two world class boxers
> might land 10 or so good punches in 10 minutes!

I agree with the assessment about the boxers, but the problem is there is a huge disparity between equal combatants and those only one rank difference.

212019156 Wrote:

> I agree with the assessment about the boxers, but
> the problem is there is a huge disparity between
> equal combatants and those only one rank
> difference.

Not when you are talking supers. Each rank is roughly twice as good as the rank below it (an idea copied from the DC MEGS system, though not faithfully followed everywhere in Marvel). So, Captain America is roughly twice as good of a combatant as Wolverine (not accounting for talents).

It's not as if each rank is "one step better", each is 2X better than the one below it (or half as good if going down a rank). That's the intention anyway.

I was thinking about this last night. You could just give characters such as Captain America a combat sense power like Spiderman has. Of course they would not necessarily have it at the same power rank as Spiderman but give them free defensive rolls (evade or dodge) at whatever power rank you assign the power. If they wanted to use their actual Fighting or Agility (say it was a higher than their combat sense power rank), they could but their number of attacks that round would be limited (1 attack for dodge and 0 attacks for evade). In addition you could add a defensive martial arts talent that grants the character a -1CS to be hit. I think this solution would solve the problem you are talking about in your original post, is simple and does not mess with the rest of the rules system.

In the case of Captain America he would probably have this defensive talent and he might have a combat sense power of something like Excellent. This would provide him the passive defense that he probably would have without breaking the system.

My intent was simplicity.

Yes, your suggestions might add to realism, but they might also detract from the game. Extra rolls, added powers, etc adds to complexity and slows down the game. I was trying to avoid that.

Actually I think with my suggestions you don't risk "breaking" the system, plus they are pretty simple. The new talent does not require any special rolls and the combat sense power is already something that exists in terms of what Spider does within the game. The chart and combat resolution system is such a big part of the game that changing it may have unforeseen consequences game mechanics wise.

212019156 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually I think with my suggestions you don't
> risk "breaking" the system, plus they are pretty
> simple. The new talent does not require any
> special rolls and the combat sense power is
> already something that exists in terms of what
> Spider does within the game. The chart and combat
> resolution system is such a big part of the game
> that changing it may have unforeseen consequences
> game mechanics wise.

To each his own. I like how my system still resolves combat with one roll. Yes, it weights things toward the better combatant, but that seems more realistic to me.

I also like how this handles evenly matched opponents. How would your "combat sense" be handled when the two combatants are equal, or the facing a superior opponent?

If two opponents are equal stat-wise but one has combat sense and the other doesn't then statistically the opponent with combat sense should win more often than the other that doesn't have that ability.

Really the current system as is weighs things towards the better opponent.

I don't see the point in giving Cap Combat Sense just to simulate him being better at fighting, that's what the Fighting state is for.

Every addition adds complication, I'm trying to avoid that.

yes, my house rule changes some dynamics, but it adds very little complication while adding more reality.

Well, you were complaining about fighters like Captain America being too easy to hit. Combat sense is a very uncomplicated solution that does not change the backbone of the system. It provides a superhuman level of defense for a superhuman fighter like Captain America. Plus it already is in the existing rules, so you don't have to write it up. I'm not saying your way is wrong, I was just brainstorming a solution to the initial problem you posted. Heck I have not played in years. Examining game mechanics is just a fun diversion for me.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this idea, but a suggestion proposed to me that might be of interest goes like this:

If a character's Fighting rank is two or more ranks below his opponent's, then all of his attack results are reduced by one color result.
If a character's Fighting rank is equal or within one rank of his opponent's, then attacks resolve normally.
And if a character's Fighting rank is two or more ranks above his opponent's, then all of his attack results are increased by one color result.

In the case of fighting someone who has a danger sense power, the attacker's Fighting rank is compared to the danger sense, but a character with the danger sense power still uses his Fighting rank to determine his own attacks against the other character... because danger sense allows you to avoid attacks more easily, not target them better.

This gives a very distinct advantage for those whose Fighting rank is noticeably superior, but the equal or within one rank keeps things competitive in a wider range than just those who have the same rank. Also, while making it much more difficult for "inferior" combatants to even hit (by reducing a Green FEAT to a White), it has the additional advantage of removing a critical hit which would allow a weaker foe to possibly stun a greater foe and then beat them senseless for 1 to 10 rounds.

Likewise, a superior fighter is going to autohit every time since White FEATs will be bumped up to Green (this is the part that I don't like since everyone should still have a chance to miss), and their critical range is essentially now Yellow and Red (with Yellow being bumped up to Red, and Green being bumped up to Yellow).


Personally, I would recommend that --whether in this or another alternate rules set promoting advantages/penalties based on differences in Fighting rank-- circumstance modifiers to Fighting FEATs be taken into account when making the comparison. So someone who has the advantage of being able to see in the dark while his normally superior Fighting opponent doesn't, would have his normal rank compared to his opponent's darkness penalty modified rank... or if someone makes a good enough Evasion FEAT to grant themselves a +1CS or +2CS bonus on their next attack, then that next attack is made not just with the bonus but also with his Fighting rank considered that high when comparing ranks. This would help simulate the back and forth nature of combat for two roughly equally-matched opponents as well as giving inferior opponents the ability to duck (Evade) and wait for their opportunity to strike with possibly better than usual results.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2015 05:24AM by Thrudjelmer.

I like that...reconsidering....

Talking with the guy who suggested that system, the autohit possibility for those with superior fighting skill can still miss if the defending character successfully evades the attack. I'm still not sure I like the idea of someone whose Fighting rank is 2 higher than others' always automatically hitting.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2015 11:38AM by Thrudjelmer.