An idea for the "With Great Power" Character Point System: Arrays/Multipowers (i.e., a slightly different version of Power Stunts), as seen in Champions/the HERO System and Mutants & Masterminds.

Sometimes a character will have two or more powers that draw from the same source, or are different manifestations of the same power, and using one means the others are locked out. Examples would be Iron Man's "Uni-Beam" (which can be a hologram projector or a laser or a tractor beam, but only one at a time), or Spider-Man's webshooters (which can do webs, Snaring Missile, and web balls, doing Blunt damage at range, but not at the same time). Or a Star Trek phaser, which has settings from Stun (Stunning Missile) to Kill (Energy blast) to Disintegrate (Disintegration/Disruption) and can be set to a narrow beam hitting one target or a wide sweep hitting everything in an area.

Since you can't use more than one of those powers at a time, I'd suggest a discount on buying them: the 'base' effect (the highest ranked power) is at its normal cost, but the other "settings" cost 1/10th normal, rounded down.

For example, Stark's Uni-Beam

Quote

Uni-Beams: Multi-band light and force beam emitter. Can be adjusted for a variety of effects such as:

• Heat Beam: Amazing/50 Energy damage
• Laser: Amazing/50 Energy damage
• Light Beam: Monstrous/75 Light
• Tractor Beam: Monstrous/75 Telekinesis
• Holographic Projector: Excellent/20 Illusions

Paying for each individually, that'd be [(10+50) +(10+50) +(10+75) +(10+75) +(10+20)] = 320 CPs
Under my proposal, it would be [(10+50)/10 +(10+50)/10 +(10+75) +(10+75)/10 +(10+20)/10] = [6+6+85+8+3] = 108 CPs

Or a suit of power armor where power can be channeled to the weapons system or to the suit's servos:

Quote

Energy Systems: Can use suit's power in a number of offensive ways:

• Laser: Ex/20 Energy damage at Ex/20 range
• Strength Enhancement: Ex/20 Hyper-Strength (increases Strength by 20 points)

Those two separately would be [(10+20) +(10+20)] = 60 CPs.
Under this system, it would be [(10+20) +(10+20)/10] = 33 CPs.

Or a psychic with various mental abilities, each usable one at a time

Quote

Psionic Abilities: Vast mental powers:

• Clairvoyance: Gd/10
• Mind Control: Ty/6
• Psionic Attack: Gd/10
• Telekinesis: Gd/10

All those separately would be [(10+10) +{(10+6)x2} + (10+10) +(10+10)] = 92 CPs (remember that Mind Control is a * power and so costs double)
Under this system, they would be [(10+10)/10 +{(10+6)x2} + (10+10)/10 +(10+10)/10] = [2+32+2+2] = 38 CPs

Or some sort of Earth Elemental-type character, who can have their body be soft and pliable like clay or hard and durable like stone:

Quote

Earthen Body: Can shift their bodily composition in the following ways:

• Clay Form: Ty/6 Elongation, Gd/10 Plasticity, and Pr/4 Wall-Crawling
• Stone Form: Gd/10 Body Resistance and Gd/10 Hyper-Strength (increases Strength by 10 points)

All those powers separately would cost [{(10+6) +(10+10) +(10+4)} +{(10+10) +(10+10)}] = [50+40] = 90 CPs
But if one of those forms is the "base" and the other is a different "setting" (with the proposed discount), it would cost [{(10+6) +(10+10) +(10+4)} +{(10+10) +(10+10)}/10] = [50+4] = 54 CPs

What do you think of this?

I'd propose something more along the lines of purchasing one power and then squeezing as many in as power stunts as possible through game play. It's far more effective than purchasing individual powers, even at a discount.

In the case of Iron Man's unibeam projector, let's call it Energy Generation. "Energy" is a broad-spanning term and encompasses mostly everything mentioned above... light (including lasers and holograms), heat, and pure force or energy damage. The tractor beam is the odd power in this one as it's more of a telekinesis or gravity manipulation power, but it could be acquired separately with a limitation that it cannot be used at the same time as the Energy Generation power because they're using the same power and output source and see if the judge will give a +1CS boost to the initial rank for the usage restriction.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd propose something more along the lines of
> purchasing one power and then squeezing as many in
> as power stunts as possible through game play.
> It's far more effective than purchasing individual
> powers, even at a discount.

That's fine for characters who've just started, sure, something like "Year One" versions, or first year students at some superhero school. Or characters with a fairly simple and straightforward powerset. But what about experienced characters, ones who've been around for a while and know how to use their powers (and would have developed power stunts), or ones whose concept calls for starting with several powers (even if low level ones, like the Psionic powerset form my initial post)?


> In the case of Iron Man's unibeam projector, let's
> call it Energy Generation. "Energy" is a
> broad-spanning term and encompasses mostly
> everything mentioned above... light (including
> lasers and holograms), heat, and pure force or
> energy damage. The tractor beam is the odd power
> in this one as it's more of a telekinesis or
> gravity manipulation power, but it could be
> acquired separately with a limitation that it
> cannot be used at the same time as the Energy
> Generation power because they're using the same
> power and output source and see if the judge will
> give a +1CS boost to the initial rank for the
> usage restriction.

So would that +1 CS boost to initial rank be on all the "Uni-Beam" powers?

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So would that +1 CS boost to initial rank be on
> all the "Uni-Beam" powers?


I would only apply it to one power --energy generation or whatever is used for the tractor beam, whichever power rank is lower to bring them both up but I would allow it to be applied to the higher power to give it a little more oomph if that's what the player wanted (depending on how high the rank is to start with).

As for creating characters that have been around a long time who should have more powers, if it's an NPC the GM can just give it the extra power stunts... if it's a player character whose concept is having been around a long time, I'd say "Too bad." I wouldn't make an exception to get more power (higher ranks) or more powers (number of powers) to satisfy an origin. For me, the idea is you take what you get with character creation and make the character concept fit it... not the other way around.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would only apply it to one power --energy
> generation or whatever is used for the tractor
> beam, whichever power rank is lower to bring them
> both up but I would allow it to be applied to the
> higher power to give it a little more oomph if
> that's what the player wanted (depending on how
> high the rank is to start with).

Okay, but if the limitation "can only use one at a time" is applicable to all the Uni-Beam settings, why doesn't every power in it get that Limitation?


> As for creating characters that have been around a
> long time who should have more powers, if it's an
> NPC the GM can just give it the extra power
> stunts... if it's a player character whose concept
> is having been around a long time, I'd say "Too
> bad." I wouldn't make an exception to get more
> power (higher ranks) or more powers (number of
> powers) to satisfy an origin. For me, the idea is
> you take what you get with character creation and
> make the character concept fit it... not the other
> way around.

Sure, if it's one player wanting to make an experienced character when everyone else is a starter -- like if someone wanted to make a 5th level char for a D&D or Pathfinder game when everyone else is making a 1st level char -- then that player's being unreasonable and should change their thinking or go home. But not every MSH game is going to be "you all just got powers, what do?" or X-Men: First Year Hijinx, some would start with chars who have some idea what they're doing. Yes, absolutely make your character to fit within the campaign/Judge's guidelines, but different campaigns/Judges have different guidelines.

Plus, it's not even strictly an origin story thing, it's a game mechanics/balance thing. If you have three or four different abilities that you can only use one per round (like different phaser settings), it seems unfair to have to pay the full amount for all those powers; having a few powers whose use is mutually exclusive, like the power sets in my initial post, is less useful than having a few powers all usable at the same time (like flight, force bolt, and force field), so there should be some discount. (Also -- and I really should've mentioned this in my initial post -- by being tied together this way, if one of the 'settings' is nullified or reduced in rank, all the 'settings' are, so there is some downside to this.) Yes, there is versatility in having different attack options -- if Iron Man's fighting the Human Torch, he won't use his Uni-Beam's heat beam, but could use its tractor beam to hold him at bay, and if facing Daredevil he's not going to bother with holograms -- but is that enough to warrant paying full price for all the Uni-Beam's powers?

Since this is a point buy issue, for a campaign with more experienced characters I would just give all the players more points to reflect being around longer and having more abilities.

As for assigning a +1CS bonus for the limitation of being mutually exclusive, it really depends on the ranks of the powers tied together, using the limitations in the Player's Book as a guideline for how much benefit a character can get and whether or not a rank can be increased. As for being mutually exclusive, I would only allow a +1CS bonus for it since most characters wouldn't get the benefit of using multiple attack powers simultaneously, the main restriction on such a limitation is that if something negates the power source (say blocking the uni-beam or damaging it) it effectively negates all those powers. But yeah, given the circumstances, the above is how I would handle combining powers and the +1CS is the boost I would allow. But maybe that's just me.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since this is a point buy issue, for a campaign
> with more experienced characters I would just give
> all the players more points to reflect being
> around longer and having more abilities.

Sure, and even the WGP page gives guidelines on that:

Quote

Discuss with your players the kind of campaign you want to have and then experiment with different point totals before deciding how many CPs to give your players. For Avengers style campaigns, I'd suggest 300-350 CPs per hero. For low-powered, gritty, "realistic," or pulp campaigns, I'd give out about 200 CPs. If you want to play a high-powered or cosmic campaign, I recommend handing out at least 500 CPs.

But I'm finding that doesn't work. I've been working on some character ideas, who -- in my opinion -- are better than "street-level" heroes yet aren't quite powerful enough to be Avengers league (but could be with some training and mentorship and experience), but they're coming out to 350-400 CPs. But using the Multipower/Array system I've described, they're coming out to around 275-300.

From my other thread:

Quote
Nightmask
Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Partly because I'm hoping continued reference to
> it will get some more comments on that system
> (aside from Thrudjelmer, the only one who's
> commented so far). Also, because I think the
> system -- or something like it -- makes sense.

See that's what really doesn't make sense to me because this just isn't a game where you can create any sort of balance by going 'well with X amount of points every character will be roughly the same power level/ability', you just can't. The CP system makes it easy to access some extremely powerful abilities far cheaper than other more limited abilities and just results in imbalances overall.

Okay, so, are you saying the "With Great Power" system is incapable of making a group of characters which are roughly equal to each other? Or are you saying that the Marvel Super Heroes game itself is so unbalanced that you can't make a group of characters who are roughly equal (and any sort of point-based creation system, which are generally used to ensure the PCs are roughly equal, would be doomed to failure)?

If the former, do you think the WGP system could be altered to allow for the creation of a group of roughly-equal characters? If the latter, do you think the MSH game could be altered to allow for the creation of a team of roughly equal characters, or do players just need to accept that some of them will have weaker characters and some get the Superpower Lottery?

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From
> [url=http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/phorum/re
> ad.php?9,77152]my other thread[/url]:
> [quote=Nightmask]Dr Archeville Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Partly because I'm hoping continued reference
> to
> > it will get some more comments on that system
> > (aside from Thrudjelmer, the only one who's
> > commented so far). Also, because I think the
> > system -- or something like it -- makes sense.
>
> See that's what really doesn't make sense to me
> because this just isn't a game where you can
> create any sort of balance by going 'well with X
> amount of points every character will be roughly
> the same power level/ability', you just can't. The
> CP system makes it easy to access some extremely
> powerful abilities far cheaper than other more
> limited abilities and just results in imbalances
> overall.[/quote]
>
> Okay, so, are you saying the "With Great Power"
> system is incapable of making a group of
> characters which are roughly equal to each other?
> Or are you saying that the Marvel Super Heroes
> game [i]itself[/i] is so unbalanced that you can't
> make a group of characters who are roughly equal
> (and any sort of point-based creation system,
> which are generally used to ensure the PCs are
> roughly equal, would be doomed to failure)?
>
> If the former, do you think the WGP system could
> be altered to allow for the creation of a group of
> roughly-equal characters? If the latter, do you
> think the MSH game could be altered to allow for
> the creation of a team of roughly equal
> characters, or do players just need to accept that
> some of them will have
> [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wh
> atKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway]weaker
> characters[/url] and some get the
> [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Su
> perpowerLottery]Superpower Lottery[/url]?

The CP system isn't really compatible with the MSHRPG because the game design just doesn't work with it. There are a wide range of powers available (especially if you include the UP and the utilitarian nature of the powers covers such a range that even if people all start with a set amount of CP some will end up far more powerful than the others in spite of the illusion that 'well they were all built using the same number of points'. It will also select against a range of powers because even though they're seen as common or the powers end up costing too much for what they provide eliminating certain character concepts.

While there are those who'll take a hit to create a particular concept it ends up punishing them in doing so (the various hyper-powers for example, little reason to take them when you can just increase the stat directly without having to waste 10 CP on the hyper-power unless you're determined to do a concept). So Regeneration is extremely pricey for its limited use while a majorly versatile power like Telekinesis is far cheaper in comparison. This comes because the weighting factors for the CP system are based on the weighting the game has based on completely different reasons and the idea of the power slot system where you have X number of slots for powers and probably from the idea that there's no real balance beyond how the GM runs the game and that a group is supposed to be working together as a group and not competing against each other. That's how a range of super-hero groups function, with a wide range of power levels on the parts of the members.

Quote
Nightmask
The CP system isn't really compatible with the MSHRPG because the game design just doesn't work with it. There are a wide range of powers available (especially if you include the UPcool smiley and the utilitarian nature of the powers covers such a range that even if people all start with a set amount of CP some will end up far more powerful than the others in spite of the illusion that 'well they were all built using the same number of points'. It will also select against a range of powers because even though they're seen as common or the powers end up costing too much for what they provide eliminating certain character concepts.

Ah, yeah, that is a key difference between MSH and point-buy games like Champions or Mutants & Masterminds (which I'm slowly realizing as I re-familiarize myself with the MSH system): those games are an effects-based system, so you'd buy one or more effects (each of which does one specific thing) to build a power. But many of the powers in MSH -- especially the ones in UPB -- have multiple effects built in at the start, even before adding on Power Stunts. So trying to balance things would require overhauling most of the powers, which... would be a big project.

Quote
Nightmask
While there are those who'll take a hit to create a particular concept it ends up punishing them in doing so (the various hyper-powers for example, little reason to take them when you can just increase the stat directly without having to waste 10 CP on the hyper-power unless you're determined to do a concept). So Regeneration is extremely pricey for its limited use while a majorly versatile power like Telekinesis is far cheaper in comparison. This comes because the weighting factors for the CP system are based on the weighting the game has based on completely different reasons and the idea of the power slot system where you have X number of slots for powers and probably from the idea that there's no real balance beyond how the GM runs the game and that a group is supposed to be working together as a group and not competing against each other. That's how a range of super-hero groups function, with a wide range of power levels on the parts of the members.

Well, yes, of course hero teams -- and players in an RPG -- should be working together, with each other rather than against each other. (Unless you're playing Paranoia, or Fiasco.) But that doesn't mean there shouldn't also be some balance of abilities among them, so they can all contribute to their activites. I mean, look at the classic X-Men: Angel can fly, but that's about it, but Marvel Girl can use her TK to move herself & others through the air, and do all sorts of other TK stuff (force fields, force bolts, holding foes immobile), and telepathic stuff; Jean's able to contribute much more to the team than Warren can, and I don't think Warren's player would be out of line to be upset that their character is so greatly overshadowed by what Jean's player has. Sure, the comics themselves have characters of wildly differing power levels on a team (and much the same happens in any work of fiction where there are multiple characters on a team; not all Starfleet officers or Star Wars Rebels are created equal), but that span is usually narrowed somewhat in games based on those for purposes of game balance.

I've never believed that the character point system creates balanced characters as one 300 point character can be vastly over-powered compared to another 300 point character. The balance is that it allows everyone the same opportunity to create whatever they want whereas random dice rolls can dictate one player's character may be vastly overpowered and all players may end up with characters they don't like because they may have a specific vision of a character they want to start with.

With character points, if someone builds a kickass build and another player says "no fair, my character isn't that powerful," then I tell them they could have done the same thing if they wanted to. Character point building is all about flexibility in character design --not balanced power level.

Quote
Thrudjelmer
I've never believed that the character point system creates balanced characters as one 300 point character can be vastly over-powered compared to another 300 point character. The balance is that it allows everyone the same opportunity to create whatever they want whereas random dice rolls can dictate one player's character may be vastly overpowered and all players may end up with characters they don't like because they may have a specific vision of a character they want to start with.

With character points, if someone builds a kickass build and another player says "no fair, my character isn't that powerful," then I tell them they could have done the same thing if they wanted to. Character point building is all about flexibility in character design --not balanced power level.

So if random die-rolling gives characters vastly differing levels of power (thus no balance in power level), and you say a CP system doesn't give balanced power levels, do you think balanced power levels are an impossibility in this system?

With the same amount of points, you can make one character who's more physical powerful than another, sure, but that other character may well have abilities the other one doesn't. That's what (IMO) balance means -- not that they can all hit the same & withstand the same, but that they can all contribute a roughly equal amount to the team and to their adventures/missions. Hulk and Thor are probably the most powerful member of the Avengers, with Iron Man close behind, but that doesn't mean Black Widow, Captain America, or Hawkeye are useless, they have lots of abilities the other three don't, other ways to contribute to the team.

And a CP system can be about power level, if you place limits on how much someone can spend on any powers or FASERIP scores or so on. Which is what most other points-based systems I know of do, give you a number of points and limits on how much you can spend in each area. (Though that's also for keeping the PC's from surpassing a certain level, so the GM/Judge can have some gauge of the team's power level and thus what sort of challenges would be easy for them, too difficult, or just right.)

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And a CP system can be about power level,
> if you place limits on how much someone can spend
> on any powers or FASERIP scores or so on. Which
> is what most other points-based systems I know of
> do, give you a number of points and limits
> on how much you can spend in each area. (Though
> that's also for keeping the PC's from surpassing a
> certain level, so the GM/Judge can have some gauge
> of the team's power level and thus what sort of
> challenges would be easy for them, too difficult,
> or just right.)


Even with point limits, you can end up with characters of significantly different power levels... but, again, the balance is that everyone has equal opportunity to make whatever they want. Saying point buy gives you characters that are roughly equal in power is a fallacy.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
Thrudjelmer
I've never believed that the
> character point system creates balanced characters
> as one 300 point character can be vastly
> over-powered compared to another 300 point
> character. The balance is that it allows everyone
> the same opportunity to create whatever they want
> whereas random dice rolls can dictate one player's
> character may be vastly overpowered and all
> players may end up with characters they don't like
> because they may have a specific vision of a
> character they want to start with.
>
> With character points, if someone builds a kickass
> build and another player says "no fair, my
> character isn't that powerful," then I tell them
> they could have done the same thing if they wanted
> to. Character point building is all about
> flexibility in character design --not balanced
> power level.

> So if random die-rolling gives characters vastly
> differing levels of power (thus no balance in
> power level), and you say a CP system doesn't give
> balanced power levels, do you think balanced power
> levels are an impossibility in this system?
>
> With the same amount of points, you can make one
> character who's more physical powerful than
> another, sure, but that other character may well
> have abilities the other one doesn't. That's what
> (IMO) balance means -- not that they can all hit
> the same & withstand the same, but that they can
> all contribute a roughly equal amount to the team
> and to their adventures/missions. Hulk and Thor
> are probably the most powerful member of the
> Avengers, with Iron Man close behind, but that
> doesn't mean Black Widow, Captain America, or
> Hawkeye are useless, they have lots of abilities
> the other three don't, other ways to contribute to
> the team.
>
> And a CP system can be about power level,
> if you place limits on how much someone can spend
> on any powers or FASERIP scores or so on. Which
> is what most other points-based systems I know of
> do, give you a number of points and limits
> on how much you can spend in each area. (Though
> that's also for keeping the PC's from surpassing a
> certain level, so the GM/Judge can have some gauge
> of the team's power level and thus what sort of
> challenges would be easy for them, too difficult,
> or just right.)

At issue is that word 'balanced', what people think it means or how one can achieve it or if it can be achieved. For many when they talk balance it is indeed all about power, that's seemingly the only metric that they measure by. If their character can't deal roughly the same amount of damage as a different player's character then it's weak and they feel it can't compete. This can be exacerbated depending on how the GM and other players interact or mitigated. When I ran Perceptor in Rook's game many years ago having the lowest-powered character in the game bothered me not a bit because of everyone else involved, it was exceptionally enjoyable since everyone was working together, being cooperative rather than competitive.

It ends up coming down to too much focus on numbers and thinking things can be easily quantified, that x points built character is basically equal to another x points character because they have the same number of points. The characters are just measured by the numbers and not by the abilities that they have. Now yes the purely random method isn't necessarily the best either, both for the disparity in things and because someone can end up with a character that for them just is not appealing or playable. What tends to work better is some measure of developing things as a selection process, with some randomness (like in numbers of powers, talents, and ranks) and emphasizing that everyone's working together and not measure themselves against each other in a competitive fashion.

Thrudjelmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dr Archeville Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And a CP system can be about power
> level,
> > if you place limits on how much someone can
> spend
> > on any powers or FASERIP scores or so on.
> Which
> > is what most other points-based systems I know
> of
> > do, give you a number of points and
> limits
> > on how much you can spend in each area.
> (Though
> > that's also for keeping the PC's from surpassing
> a
> > certain level, so the GM/Judge can have some
> gauge
> > of the team's power level and thus what sort of
> > challenges would be easy for them, too
> difficult,
> > or just right.)
>
>
> Even with point limits, you can end up with
> characters of significantly different power
> levels... but, again, the balance is that everyone
> has equal opportunity to make whatever they want.
> Saying point buy gives you characters that are
> roughly equal in power is a fallacy.

That's not balance though, that's just everyone getting to pick whatever tools that they feel like. Not the same thing.

You say tomato, I say ketchup.

I agree with Thrudjelmer, balance is an illusion.

Even if two characters have identical stats and powers, there can be a perceived balance problem if one player is luckier than another.

True balance in RPGs is achieved when everyone leaves the table happy. No out-of-the-box system will achieve that without a decent GM and some decent players. Sorry, you can't write rules to compensate for a bad GM or a bad group of players, not going to happen.

Even a horrible system can be enjoyable given the right group.

My advice: stop focusing on power levels and everyone being "equal". Instead focusing on everyone getting the opportunity to have fun. This can be one player playing Jimmy Olson with another playing Superman. If each chose their role and can have fun, then you've achieved "balance".

Yes, you can get this with random rolls or points. If a player rolls a character they're not happy with, let them do it again until they are happy. If you notice they are simply trying to get the most powerful character, LET THEM! It's important to remember it's EVERYONE'S game, not just the GMs or a few of the players, EVERYONE'S!

You may have to play through a few games before everyone finds what is fun. You may play a session or two with everyone insisting on playing Superman, so let them. Sooner or later they'll get bored and want something new. What have you lost by letting them try something?

The only thing I avoid is players and characters that intentionally attempt to steal the spotlight or to derail other players' fun. I'll let a guy play the Juggernaut if he will play it well and he'll add to everyone's fun. I'll also let a guy play a normal human in a group of gods, as long as it works for the group.

However, I have gone as far as asking a player to leave the group if they are disruptive, won't play a character that fits into the group, or are constantly trying to take over the game. That's just simply a bad player.

So, in your case, you have a concept where a guy has a ton of powers and can only use one at a time, so be it. As long as you are playing the character because it seems fun and not simply trying to squeeze as much power into your character as possible so you can be a one man army that really doesn't even need the group, I'll let you play it. The balance comes when I let EVERYONE do the what they want as well!

In short, there are no bad characters, only bad GMs and Bad Players.