(It occurs to me that the PEACH acronym may not be familiar: Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.)

"Through his fighting disciplines, the Kingpin has Poor Body Armor." - Concete Jungle and Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe, Vol. 2.

This line has caused a lot of discussion over the years in various MSH communities. Body Armor is a superpower. But the Kingpin is an unpowered human. How can he have a superpower? He has trained to have Body Armor. Then he's not an unpowered human. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I've got an idea. What about a Talent that could cover this situation?

Body Hardening: Through esoteric physical training, a character has made his body resistant to damage. He gains a form of Body Armor with a Power rank number -5 CS from his Endurance. For example, a character with Incredible Endurance would have Poor Body Armor. This Talent is a Mystic and Mental Skill.

Notes: The Trance, Mesmerism, and Resist Domination talents provide precedents. They all grant weaker versions of powers.

The basic handbook lists Amazing as "Highest rank possible for anything considered human." and Incredible as "Enhanced human ability." The Kingpin has Incredible Endurance; I think his training qualifies as "enhanced." Therefore, the -5 CS.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that extreme training can grant "super" powers, especially if we're talking low levels like Kingpin has in Body Armor, but also in exceeding human norms (like an Incredible Endurance). As I see it, training oneself to that level qualifies the individual as an altered human. No need for every altered human to have a radioactive element to their transformation, or implanted cybernetics, or magical altering of their person. It's a fuzzy line that some people dislike, but there are altered humans who can pass for normal "unpowered" humans, just as there are humans who are not mutants and do not have a transformative event but still have some measure of power (see Stan Lee's Superhumans for evidence of real world examples).

As such, I don't think we need a talent to cover an ability that can be explained as a low-level altered human that has been altered through extreme training.

The problem with your talent as written, however, is that it provides Body Armor equal to the character's Endurance rank -5CS. Given that the purpose of this is to explain "normal human" characters with Body Armor, it still falls flat because the people it is meant to appease (those who want those rigid definition of normal human vs altered human) will insist that the normal humans have a cap on Endurance of Remarkable rank --as defined in the Advanced Set Judge's Book, page 5. And some people will even insist that Excellent is the cap for normal human Endurance (although I'm less certain why when the Judge's book clearly illustrates what normal humans can achieve, I suspect it's for the Player's Handbook random ranks table having a maximum of Excellent rank for starting characters). Because of this, a normal human with the talent you are proposing could only ever have an effective Feeble rank Body Armor (Remarkable Endurance -5CS), or none at all if a Judge does decide to cap Endurance at Excellent for "normals."

But now let's look at the other side of this: as a talent, why wouldn't superhumans all get this? It's a cheap way to add damage resistance after character creation, and someone with a Monstrous starting Endurance (Aliens, Altered Humans, Mutants, Robots could all start with this level of Endurance), giving them Good rank Body Armor for the cost of 1 talent slot at creation or 1000 to 2000 Karma. Does such a person literally have harder, more difficult to injure skin? I mean, at that level characters are low-level bulletproof and stab proof.

Additionally, how does this affect a character who already has Body Armor if they take the talent afterwards? What if the character has the talent and then layers on artificial Body Armor?

There's a lot to take into account to make such a talent balanced with other aspects of gameplay, and personally I think it's just easier to separate the idea of "normal humans" from character generation and in-game context. "Normal humans" from character generation means that the character rolls on column 2 of the random ranks table and doesn't get any starting powers. "Normal humans" within the context of story means that someone who has not been artificially altered by some triggering event, but does not preclude the ability to have powers if properly explained. Training to gain skill-based power, such as a quasi-mental/mystic ability to harden the body has been established over the years as attainable by "normal humans," usually Shao Lin monks or similarly trained individuals who have spent their lives honing such discipline. Likewise, the Ultimate Skill power, providing the use of a talent at Unearthly rank, is still a power, but someone who saves up their Karma for it should be able to have that power even if they are just a "normal human." I would also go so far as to allow a "normal human" to have mental powers like Hypnotism or Emotion Control (fear through Batman-style intimidation, for example) based on training.

Again, it's all about giving a credible explanation. Can someone "normal" learn to project energy? Sure, if you run your game in a Street Fighter style world where chi can be harnessed by anyone properly trained to so. Telepathy? Sure, why not? Doctor Doom, a high tech villain with magic training also learned a very specific psionic discipline in his ability to switch minds with a target. Weather Control? Animal Communication? Flight? Mileage may vary depending on your explanation and what the Judge allows. But my take is that if a Judge does not like the idea of "normal humans" having Body Armor, then introducing it as a talent won't convince them anyhow.

First, my apologies for letting this sit so long. Life Intruded.

Second, Thrudjelmer, thanks for the eloquent and in depth analysis. You make some good points. You're right, I am overthinking this. The talent is too complex.

But I think there's a hole in the Mystical Talents group. We've got mind control, a healing factor, and unbreakable will. A resistant body would complete the set. I think there's enough lore in pulp fiction, martial arts fiction, and Marvel itself to include such a talent.

How about...

Body Hardening: Through training, your body is resistant to damage. You gain a form of Body Armor with a Power Rank of Poor. If you have any other stronger form of protection (Resistance, Body Armor, Force Field, etc), this Body Armor is not used and does not apply. This Talent is a Mystic and Mental Skill.

I'd still call that more suited to powers than talents. While there are always exceptions, I would look at filling that gap in the mystical talents with something that just adds a column shift bonus. For example, in my game, I introduced a talent called Tough which adds a +1CS bonus to Endurance for Stun and Slam checks, as well as to Strength for Block checks.

While we're on the subject, blocking already provides body armor based on a Strength FEAT. That's body hardening in a nutshell right there. Give someone the Tough talent and they get a little better at it, as well as being able to reduce being knocked around or unconscious.

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Thrudjelmer
I'd still call that more suited to powers than talents. While there are always exceptions, I would look at filling that gap in the mystical talents with something that just adds a column shift bonus. For example, in my game, I introduced a talent called Tough which adds a +1CS bonus to Endurance for Stun and Slam checks, as well as to Strength for Block checks.

Fair enough. Chalk that up to differences in design style.

Am I at least making my design intent clear?

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Thrudjelmer
While we're on the subject, blocking already provides body armor based on a Strength FEAT. That's body hardening in a nutshell right there. Give someone the Tough talent and they get a little better at it, as well as being able to reduce being knocked around or unconscious.

Is that a house rule, or a canon rule? If canon, can you provide a page number, because I've sure missed it all these years.

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thorr-kan

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Thrudjelmer
I'd still call that more suited to powers than talents. While there are always exceptions, I would look at filling that gap in the mystical talents with something that just adds a column shift bonus. For example, in my game, I introduced a talent called Tough which adds a +1CS bonus to Endurance for Stun and Slam checks, as well as to Strength for Block checks.

Fair enough. Chalk that up to differences in design style.

Am I at least making my design intent clear?

Yes, I believe so.

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thorr-kan

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Thrudjelmer
While we're on the subject, blocking already provides body armor based on a Strength FEAT. That's body hardening in a nutshell right there. Give someone the Tough talent and they get a little better at it, as well as being able to reduce being knocked around or unconscious.

Is that a house rule, or a canon rule? If canon, can you provide a page number, because I've sure missed it all these years.

Well, as I said, the Tough talent is a house rule of my own. However, Blocking as a defensive action can be found in the Advanced Player's Handbook on page 28, as well as the Revised Basic Set's Rule Book on page 24. I never use the original basic set, so I'm not sure if there's mention of it in there or not.