I remember ages ago some one asked about using their powers to make money and we all got into it over how collection worked but the thought hit me today, what if one of your players came up with a use of a power that made sense and didn't break laws? Precog could see lotto numbers and Link Senses/Clairvoyance to see another player's poker hand but that would be an abuse so I'm not going into that sort of thing. I'm talking about say you have a character who can use gateway any where in the US (he has set locations in each state he can open one). So he acts as a hub in some state, has scheduled times when he opens a gateway to one place for people to go through to him or from him and then opens the next to the next state. A one man air port with no travel time and no security guards searching your bags. Just hand him money and walk through. Would you allow some thing like that in your game as the reason for the character's resource rank? Keep in mind people would get ticked when their gateway didn't open because their hub is out saving the world with other heroes. There's so many powers which lend themselves to the movie business and why not let some one who can actually talk to the dead have a talk show on TV? Just imagine using super speed in a manufacturing job or Plant Growth/Control to be a super farmer?

Also, doesn't Daredevil use his powers against people to make money in the court room? Nothing better then knowing if a witness is lying by listening to his heart beat. Dazzler had her own band using her powers.

Killjoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember ages ago some one asked about using
> their powers to make money and we all got into it
> over how collection worked but the thought hit me
> today, what if one of your players came up with a
> use of a power that made sense and didn't break
> laws? Precog could see lotto numbers and Link
> Senses/Clairvoyance to see another player's poker
> hand but that would be an abuse so I'm not going
> into that sort of thing. I'm talking about say you
> have a character who can use gateway any where in
> the US (he has set locations in each state he can
> open one). So he acts as a hub in some state, has
> scheduled times when he opens a gateway to one
> place for people to go through to him or from him
> and then opens the next to the next state. A one
> man air port with no travel time and no security
> guards searching your bags. Just hand him money
> and walk through. Would you allow some thing like
> that in your game as the reason for the
> character's resource rank? Keep in mind people
> would get ticked when their gateway didn't open
> because their hub is out saving the world with
> other heroes. There's so many powers which lend
> themselves to the movie business and why not let
> some one who can actually talk to the dead have a
> talk show on TV? Just imagine using super speed in
> a manufacturing job or Plant Growth/Control to be
> a super farmer?

There isn't anything particularly illegal about using Collection to collect junk or things that aren't wanted by people, to help with recycling for example gathering up lost pennies or scrap aluminum cans.

> Also, doesn't Daredevil use his powers against
> people to make money in the court room? Nothing
> better then knowing if a witness is lying by
> listening to his heart beat. Dazzler had her own
> band using her powers.

Daredevil's a defense lawyer, he's using his powers to try and get off innocent people from a crime and just happens to get paid for it. For Dazzler her powers had nothing to do with her singing ability, she could use it for enhancing light shows but her powers wouldn't have done anything for her if she wasn't a fine singer.

The main problem with the previous thread was a lot of effort put into finding unrealistic justifications for why no hero ought to ever benefit from his powers especially in a financial manner. For the farmer example you cite someone would most likely argue that the guy with Plant Control and Plant Growth has an unfair advantage over the regular farmers so shouldn't be able to use them to farm without so many penalties it's worthless to try. Wouldn't surprise me if someone said you shouldn't be able to use Catalytic Control to bake stuff without using up fuel from a stove because you're having an unfair advantage over a bakery that has to pay to use gas or electricity to cook.

To be honest, most Super-Heroes are written as if they were total blithering idiots on the money frontier… Especially since most comic book Characters are the very few among a population of Billions of normal people….


Spider-Man would be a multimillionaire stage name if he signed up to the UFC or the Marvel Universe equivalent of a Fighting Circuit…. Or even a Circus or the Olympics….

No.. Instead Spider-Man turns down any business offers to pay rent for a shoe-box size apartment and listen to police scanners…….. Dood, at least sign-up to the Police Force and get on the SWAT Team…. Those guys make pretty good money…..


Then there are guys like Jugga-not, Colossus, and Sasquatch …. Holy Moly they’d make Awesome Football Players…. Teams would be throwing truck-loads of money at them….

Naaa… Instead those 3 goons are gonna leech off Professor X…..


Wolverine could be a Cook Show Host or a Ginsu Cutlery Salesman….. Either way he’d be a famous face on Marvel T.V. slinging stuff that cuts….


I guess it goes to what NiteMask said… Super-Heroes go out of their way to avoid Money Making….

But it’s totally dumb…. A wealthy person can be a better Hero than some guy struggling to pay his utility bills…

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be honest, most Super-Heroes are written as if
> they were total blithering idiots on the money
> frontier… Especially since most comic book
> Characters are the very few among a population of
> Billions of normal people….
>
>
> Spider-Man would be a multimillionaire stage name
> if he signed up to the UFC or the Marvel Universe
> equivalent of a Fighting Circuit…. Or even a
> Circus or the Olympics….
>
> No.. Instead Spider-Man turns down any business
> offers to pay rent for a shoe-box size apartment
> and listen to police scanners…….. Dood, at
> least sign-up to the Police Force and get on the
> SWAT Team…. Those guys make pretty good
> money…..

Well given his high level of moral responsibility and losing his uncle for his thinking about number one and money too much the idea he'd go on the UFC or such isn't very realistic, plus after Webs as he was going along he was making more money and living comfortably (at least before OMD returned to those wasted angst filled days). Also being a SWAT cop would prevent his being as effective as a hero as he's been so far.

> Then there are guys like Jugga-not, Colossus, and
> Sasquatch …. Holy Moly they’d make Awesome
> Football Players…. Teams would be throwing
> truck-loads of money at them….

Again hard to be a hero as a high-recognition football player, and Juggernaut's not particularly worried about not getting what he wants when he wants it with his powers.

> Naaa… Instead those 3 goons are gonna leech off
> Professor X…..
>
>
> Wolverine could be a Cook Show Host or a Ginsu
> Cutlery Salesman….. Either way he’d be a
> famous face on Marvel T.V. slinging stuff that
> cuts….
>
>
> I guess it goes to what NiteMask said…
> Super-Heroes go out of their way to avoid Money
> Making….

That's not what I said (and it's Nightmask), I said that GM tend to go to unrealistic lengths to justify why a hero shouldn't be able to use their powers to make money just like everyone else.

> But it’s totally dumb…. A wealthy person can
> be a better Hero than some guy struggling to pay
> his utility bills…

Something we agree on, as the better funded you are as a hero the more effective you can be helping others.

TankerAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spider-Man would be a multimillionaire stage name
> if he signed up to the UFC or the Marvel Universe
> equivalent of a Fighting Circuit…. Or even a
> Circus or the Olympics….

Spider-Man did go into the fight circuit, that's how uncle Ben died.

> Then there are guys like Jugga-not, Colossus, and
> Sasquatch …. Holy Moly they’d make Awesome
> Football Players…. Teams would be throwing
> truck-loads of money at them….

Beast used his emerging mutant abilities on the football team didn't he?

While not actual powers, Tony Stark and Reed Richards have both used their big brains to make money. Spider-Man makes money taking pictures of himself. There is a super powered fight circuit that many heroes and villains have been in. Doctor Strange was a actual doctor wasn't he? Guessing he never used his magic to heal any one?

I don't see why powers couldn't be used to explain resources so long as actual effort was put into maintaining the secret ID. Example: You have a hero who can heal others by touching them. He or she has gone through the training to get an actual medical degree (always useful if your powers fail) and becomes a doctor. While he must use his talent during surgeries and such, he could use his power during check ups and such. A hero with molding still needs a talent in art of some sort in order to sculpt so he or she could be a sculptor in his secret ID. I'm not talking about radical uses of powers which would attract attention, just mundane things. Why wouldn't a character with radiation powers work around radioactive materials? Who'd be a better fire fighter then some one resistant or immune to fire?

Ummm, Sasquatch was a pro football player. lol

Killjoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TankerAce Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Spider-Man would be a multimillionaire stage
> name
> > if he signed up to the UFC or the Marvel
> Universe
> > equivalent of a Fighting Circuit…. Or even a
> > Circus or the Olympics….
>
> Spider-Man did go into the fight circuit, that's
> how uncle Ben died.

Well not quite, he was getting his debut there but quickly went into entertainment but the criminal he let go during his brief wrestling career killed his uncle during the robbery of their house.

> > Then there are guys like Jugga-not, Colossus,
> and
> > Sasquatch …. Holy Moly they’d make Awesome
> > Football Players…. Teams would be throwing
> > truck-loads of money at them….
>
> Beast used his emerging mutant abilities on the
> football team didn't he?

He did, but as a genius he was more interested in science and simply used the scholarship to fund his education rather than make a career of it.

> While not actual powers, Tony Stark and Reed
> Richards have both used their big brains to make
> money. Spider-Man makes money taking pictures of
> himself. There is a super powered fight circuit
> that many heroes and villains have been in. Doctor
> Strange was a actual doctor wasn't he? Guessing he
> never used his magic to heal any one?

Stark and Reed are rarities, and for Stark as a normal human his 'power' is as much his wealth from his Incredible Reason applied into his engineering acumen without it he can't excel as much as someone without such wealth. Spider-man's also not making himself very wealthy with his pictures (and with the retcon he's probably making no money off himself and instead being a sleezy tabloid photographer) but was probably around Good to Excellent Resources at his peak with the Webs portfolio income.

Dr. Strange never used magic as a doctor as he didn't learn it until well after his crippling hand injuries and never returned to a medical career after that point (although did help on occasion with his medical knowledge and had one event during his masked magician phase where he had to do surgery on someone). He was also explicitly shown in one issue when his accountant mentioned his finances and worrying about paying the bills he went to a safe, pulled out a bar of gold, mentioned he had around 20 more and could get more if he ever needed it so had no need to worry about money.

> I don't see why powers couldn't be used to explain
> resources so long as actual effort was put into
> maintaining the secret ID. Example: You have a
> hero who can heal others by touching them. He or
> she has gone through the training to get an actual
> medical degree (always useful if your powers fail)
> and becomes a doctor. While he must use his talent
> during surgeries and such, he could use his power
> during check ups and such. A hero with molding
> still needs a talent in art of some sort in order
> to sculpt so he or she could be a sculptor in his
> secret ID. I'm not talking about radical uses of
> powers which would attract attention, just mundane
> things. Why wouldn't a character with radiation
> powers work around radioactive materials? Who'd be
> a better fire fighter then some one resistant or
> immune to fire?

It comes down to the question of how much of the hero's base Resources he wants defined by his powers and how much he'd like to be able to 'pump them up' at other times. The medical doctor example you use his powers aren't going to really improve his Resources although could help his popularity by having an astoundingly high success rate, the Molding artist can move his artistic construction rate to minutes though and produce great works of art for sale but you'll have the GM defining how valuable they are and a stingy one will have you a pauper artist no matter how much effort you put into it. The other examples again aren't going to help you make money better just make you better at that particular job (and unless you're open about your radiation powers they aren't going to help with radioactive materials and might even make people unnecessarily fearful of you).

Powersurge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ummm, Sasquatch was a pro football player. lol

I'd had the impression he had been but been so long since I've read the material on him I wasn't certain.

Like I said, I wasn't attempting to justify an increase in wealth but an explanation for the current rank. While most of the major super heroes wouldn't need to bother, minor heroes might. Example: Kritter Kid only has Communicate with Animals as a power so he takes on a job at the Central Park Zoo as an animal handler. Captain Rad has Hard Radiation Control and Emission and takes a job at the nuclear power plant (use of his abilities to prevent accidents there as well as making the place run smoother). Aqua Dude rolls up Waterbreathing and Water Freedom so he takes on a job as an underwater welder (those guys make big bucks and no one can figure out how he can stay down there so long on just one tank of air). Multiplex only has Self-Duplication and runs his own theater with his "Brothers" saying they are quadruplets.

As you can see these heroes might not be too effective saving the world but not every hero is Spider-Man or Thor you know. They are just making their way through life in their secret IDs and using their powers to do their jobs, not for a quick buck.

Now should it come to the need for a quick buck, I'd allow heroes to make a one time resource feat at +1cs of their normal using their powers or skills, though they might take a Karma loss on it. Spider-Man breaks up one of King Pin's drug shipments and happens to get a picture of the big man himself at the scene. Aunt May needs surgery and the money the DB is paying Peter just won't cut it. While it might be out of character some what to offer King Pin the picture in exchange for some cash (King Pin wouldn't want his 'good name' tarnished and would of course go after Spider-Man after) it might be the only way to save Aunt May at the time. Spidey takes a loss in Karma and now has a villain paying more attention to him but saves Aunt May. I'm sure there would be other ways to save Aunt May but this was just a quick example to explain my point.

Killjoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like I said, I wasn't attempting to justify an
> increase in wealth but an explanation for the
> current rank. While most of the major super heroes
> wouldn't need to bother, minor heroes might.
> Example: Kritter Kid only has Communicate with
> Animals as a power so he takes on a job at the
> Central Park Zoo as an animal handler. Captain Rad
> has Hard Radiation Control and Emission and takes
> a job at the nuclear power plant (use of his
> abilities to prevent accidents there as well as
> making the place run smoother). Aqua Dude rolls up
> Waterbreathing and Water Freedom so he takes on a
> job as an underwater welder (those guys make big
> bucks and no one can figure out how he can stay
> down there so long on just one tank of air).
> Multiplex only has Self-Duplication and runs his
> own theater with his "Brothers" saying they are
> quadruplets.
>
> As you can see these heroes might not be too
> effective saving the world but not every hero is
> Spider-Man or Thor you know. They are just making
> their way through life in their secret IDs and
> using their powers to do their jobs, not for a
> quick buck.

Oh I know, although Spider-man for too much of his career has been the perpetually poor guy in spite of his powers and abilities. But in a game for the PC there is a lot of resistance to them benefiting at all from their powers financially even with mundane jobs (like someone with Hyper-Invention running a successful automotive repair business).

> Now should it come to the need for a quick buck,
> I'd allow heroes to make a one time resource feat
> at +1cs of their normal using their powers or
> skills, though they might take a Karma loss on it.
> Spider-Man breaks up one of King Pin's drug
> shipments and happens to get a picture of the big
> man himself at the scene. Aunt May needs surgery
> and the money the DB is paying Peter just won't
> cut it. While it might be out of character some
> what to offer King Pin the picture in exchange for
> some cash (King Pin wouldn't want his 'good name'
> tarnished and would of course go after Spider-Man
> after) it might be the only way to save Aunt May
> at the time. Spidey takes a loss in Karma and now
> has a villain paying more attention to him but
> saves Aunt May. I'm sure there would be other ways
> to save Aunt May but this was just a quick example
> to explain my point.

From the responses I received in my Resources and Powers thread you wouldn't get that from most of the GM who responded to it. No reason one shouldn't be able to do it (other than Spider-man pre-OMD wouldn't engage in that kind of behavior), just as someone with Elemental Conversion should be able to turn a plastic spoon set from Walmart into gold or silver and sell them for quick cash since there isn't anything immoral or criminal about that. An adept with Tekekinesis could do a lot of work in a store moving and stacking things far faster than a normal human could do.

I always tried to handle this without heavy handed rules.

I figure if Periodic Man wants to use his genetic gift to make himself stupid-rich, awesome. But he's got to pay for that increase in his Resources rank. Say he has Remarkable (30) Resources, but wants to live the Monstrous (75) lifestyle, he better start saving up his Karma, or else his monetary gains are subject to the Plot.

firebomb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always tried to handle this without heavy handed
> rules.
>
> I figure if Periodic Man wants to use his genetic
> gift to make himself stupid-rich, awesome. But
> he's got to pay for that increase in his Resources
> rank. Say he has Remarkable (30) Resources, but
> wants to live the Monstrous (75) lifestyle, he
> better start saving up his Karma, or else his
> monetary gains are subject to the Plot.


I'd think it would depend on the use or over use of power. Lets say the Punisher tracks down a bunch of drug dealers and wastes them all, leaving the mountain of drugs by the bodies for the cops to take care of but snags a bag of bills for himself to fund his mission. Since the Punisher doesn't have an actual job that I know of this sort of resource justification would be acceptable to me; drug deals have a lot of cash usually and he's not going to blow it all on guns in one day. Mister Fantastic gets talked into coming out of the lab for a publicity shot on a game show, what's to stop him from using that big brain to win the million dollar prize? Not a big deal UNLESS he makes a living off game shows and more then likely he wouldn't be invited onto them if he won too much.

Now lets get into some abuse situations and explain their justification. Say a hero has some sort of Precog or probability manipulation which they use in casinos to make some money, just enough to maintain their life style without calling to much attention. Is that any different hen some one who can count cards? Now the problem, casinos don't like it when people win money and even though you're only winning a little, they'll notice after a while you only win and casinos keep in touch with one another. It won't take long before you get banned from most of them the same way a card counter does. Second, when some one tends to win a lot and the word gets out, some one is going to come looking for you to find out how you do it and that some one is usually in the criminal line of work. Third, every time the 'hero' gambles and uses his powers, he's committing a misdemeanor and loses 10 points of karma. Even if the casino he hits is owned by King Pin, he's a hero so he loses Karma.

Another thing you have to think about is if the hero has a secret ID or not and in which he does the things that he does. Spider-Man stop a criminal who's kidnapped some rich guy's kid and after leaving the kidnapper dangling some where that the cops can find him web swings the kid home to his father. Every one is happy and Spider-Man goes home with some Karma for his efforts. Now same situation, Spider-Man takes down the kidnapper and leave him hanging but, changes out of his costume before freeing the kid so that Peter Parker is the man who shows up with the kid at the father's estate, telling him that he saw Spider-Man fighting with some gunman and was told to get the kid to safety. Sort of a white lie but basically true. Now since Peter Parker is just 'some kid' and not a hero, there would be a reward in it for him along with his picture in the paper (taken by himself of course) and all the perks that come along with 'normal' folks who do heroic stuff. This sort of thing might be out of character for Spider-Man as he's in it for the good he can do, not the glory so much (other then getting his picture in the paper all the time) but there's other heroes who might not mind the publicity. Cool, DareDevil saved some kid from a villain, happens every other week and DareDevil doesn't hang around for photos but if Matthew Murdock the blind lawyer happen to show up with the kid, imagine how much it'd help his business as a lawyer? Nothing like being a local hero to promote work.

firebomb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always tried to handle this without heavy handed
> rules.
>
> I figure if Periodic Man wants to use his genetic
> gift to make himself stupid-rich, awesome. But
> he's got to pay for that increase in his Resources
> rank. Say he has Remarkable (30) Resources, but
> wants to live the Monstrous (75) lifestyle, he
> better start saving up his Karma, or else his
> monetary gains are subject to the Plot.

Which doesn't really make much sense, as Resources are reflective of what you can readily access. Periodic Man is already starting out pretty wealthy there and with his trash-into-treasure he's not trying to arrange to get the stuff he's making it from scratch.

> I'd think it would depend on the use or over use
> of power. Lets say the Punisher tracks down a
> bunch of drug dealers and wastes them all, leaving
> the mountain of drugs by the bodies for the cops
> to take care of but snags a bag of bills for
> himself to fund his mission. Since the Punisher
> doesn't have an actual job that I know of this
> sort of resource justification would be acceptable
> to me; drug deals have a lot of cash usually and
> he's not going to blow it all on guns in one day.
> Mister Fantastic gets talked into coming out of
> the lab for a publicity shot on a game show,
> what's to stop him from using that big brain to
> win the million dollar prize? Not a big deal
> UNLESS he makes a living off game shows and more
> then likely he wouldn't be invited onto them if he
> won too much.

Definitely matters on the situational layout of things, if your base Resources aren't dependent on your powers arranging windfalls with said powers should provide bonuses some hefty to ones Resources since it'd be over and above your normal income from your job. Making it your job though and your base Resource rank is tied to your powers so boosts generally aren't possible from that point.

> Now lets get into some abuse situations and
> explain their justification. Say a hero has some
> sort of Precog or probability manipulation which
> they use in casinos to make some money, just
> enough to maintain their life style without
> calling to much attention. Is that any different
> hen some one who can count cards? Now the problem,
> casinos don't like it when people win money and
> even though you're only winning a little, they'll
> notice after a while you only win and casinos keep
> in touch with one another. It won't take long
> before you get banned from most of them the same
> way a card counter does. Second, when some one
> tends to win a lot and the word gets out, some one
> is going to come looking for you to find out how
> you do it and that some one is usually in the
> criminal line of work. Third, every time the
> 'hero' gambles and uses his powers, he's
> committing a misdemeanor and loses 10 points of
> karma. Even if the casino he hits is owned by King
> Pin, he's a hero so he loses Karma.

Uh no, those casinos and lotteries are legal so it isn't a crime to engage in the gambling. It'd only be a crime if you were engaging in gambling where it was illegal, like tossing $20 into the betting pool at work on the NFL. For the winning angle you simply make yourself lose on occasion. Even though your net winnings are a profit you simply arrange losses to make it appear you're either lucky or got a working 'system'. Gambling in general though isn't immoral, mostly that's a leftover from certain religious beliefs still holding in the laws (like the anti-prostitution laws). Now if you're a religious person that it's immoral for then you still should lose karma even gambling where it's illegal because you feel it's wrong but do it anyway.

> Another thing you have to think about is if the
> hero has a secret ID or not and in which he does
> the things that he does. Spider-Man stop a
> criminal who's kidnapped some rich guy's kid and
> after leaving the kidnapper dangling some where
> that the cops can find him web swings the kid home
> to his father. Every one is happy and Spider-Man
> goes home with some Karma for his efforts. Now
> same situation, Spider-Man takes down the
> kidnapper and leave him hanging but, changes out
> of his costume before freeing the kid so that
> Peter Parker is the man who shows up with the kid
> at the father's estate, telling him that he saw
> Spider-Man fighting with some gunman and was told
> to get the kid to safety. Sort of a white lie but
> basically true. Now since Peter Parker is just
> 'some kid' and not a hero, there would be a reward
> in it for him along with his picture in the paper
> (taken by himself of course) and all the perks
> that come along with 'normal' folks who do heroic
> stuff. This sort of thing might be out of
> character for Spider-Man as he's in it for the
> good he can do, not the glory so much (other then
> getting his picture in the paper all the time) but
> there's other heroes who might not mind the
> publicity. Cool, DareDevil saved some kid from a
> villain, happens every other week and DareDevil
> doesn't hang around for photos but if Matthew
> Murdock the blind lawyer happen to show up with
> the kid, imagine how much it'd help his business
> as a lawyer? Nothing like being a local hero to
> promote work.

Spider-man's accepted money from grateful wealthy people on occasion, which has been a problem getting the check cashed being made out to Spider-man (was an occasional running gag for extra angst, his getting rewarded for saving the day and being unable to cash the check). He and Daredevil and heroes like them however wouldn't go along with that scenario as it makes their secret IDs too heroic, ironically. Part of their ability to convince people that they aren't Spider-man/Daredevil is by not appearing too much like their alter-egos. Spider-man once had some problems because a co-worker had seen him be actively heroic in his secret ID and during a later encounter with thugs she got irate at his holding back and he suddenly realized he'd outed himself to the degree that he was a capable fighter to her already but had forgotten and then quickly dealt with the thugs.

i see no problem with using your powers to earn money as long as it dosent hurt anyone or is illigel. like take the martial arts thing were if you can break these bricks useing chi you get a million bucks, or if long shot was a poker player. hell my charecter who would be telekentic could take take alote of diffrent jobs. Like construction, or even demolision, or some sorta mover. i would love to be multiple man, get 40 diffrent jobs, get 40 diffrent pay checks, then make the clones go away. hehehe lots of money.

StrykerSigma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i see no problem with using your powers to earn
> money as long as it dosent hurt anyone or is
> illigel. like take the martial arts thing were if
> you can break these bricks useing chi you get a
> million bucks, or if long shot was a poker player.
> hell my charecter who would be telekentic could
> take take alote of diffrent jobs. Like
> construction, or even demolision, or some sorta
> mover. i would love to be multiple man, get 40
> diffrent jobs, get 40 diffrent pay checks, then
> make the clones go away. hehehe lots of money.

Who says he doesn't? Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he were doing something like that since as long as he can absorb and recreate them at a thought he can eliminate the need for feeding, bathing, etc. the entire mess leaving a lot of free cash handy. But the IRS wouldn't be too happy with him as he'd be cheating them majorly by having the income of 40 different jobs but only reporting it as 40 separate individuals instead of the one individual he is.

Nightmask said:

> Which doesn't really make much sense, as Resources are reflective of what you can readily access.
> Periodic Man is already starting out pretty wealthy there and with his trash-into-treasure he's not trying
> to arrange to get the stuff he's making it from scratch.

Makes perfect sense. If he wanted that high level of resources, he should've arranged it during character generation. I treat it the same way I treat characters who 'confiscate' enemy gear or get sudden 'temporary' powers they'd like to keep. If they don't pay the Karma for it (beyond the loss for theft in the first place) it's subject to the whims of fate.

That doesn't mean it'll get taken away, it just means I'm more than happy to screw with it. Maybe they tried to push too much of a material that the value goes down in global markets. Maybe illicit people 'take interest' and start to rob him blind. Maybe his usual buyer starts to get suspicious and he has to get another, sucking up valuable time.

Etc, etc. If you don't make characters pay for that, they'll just run roughshod over the system. Now if he's just using his powers to justify an existing Resources rank, that's perfectly cool with me. Heck, it beats an office job. I'm just talking about someone trying to go above their means without paying for it. It's all about balance.

> Makes perfect sense. If he wanted that high level
> of resources, he should've arranged it during
> character generation. I treat it the same way I
> treat characters who 'confiscate' enemy gear or
> get sudden 'temporary' powers they'd like to keep.
> If they don't pay the Karma for it (beyond the
> loss for theft in the first place) it's subject to
> the whims of fate.

I think I had a similar conversation with Capo, regarding using powers to achieve higher Resources than one started with without having to burn absurd amounts of karma to do it.

> That doesn't mean it'll get taken away, it just
> means I'm more than happy to screw with it. Maybe
> they tried to push too much of a material that the
> value goes down in global markets. Maybe illicit
> people 'take interest' and start to rob him blind.
> Maybe his usual buyer starts to get suspicious and
> he has to get another, sucking up valuable time.
>
> Etc, etc. If you don't make characters pay for
> that, they'll just run roughshod over the system.
> Now if he's just using his powers to justify an
> existing Resources rank, that's perfectly cool
> with me. Heck, it beats an office job. I'm just
> talking about someone trying to go above their
> means without paying for it. It's all about
> balance.

I think the difficulty comes from what you're calling balance vs what I'd see as balance. Particularly given a super-hero game isn't like AD&D or similar fantasy games with a goal that generally revolves around conquering/ruling the world or higher or amassing the most magical power possible. Heroes are putting their efforts into helping people and putting their resources into that neverending battle. You don't generally see complaints about Stark having too much money or Bruce Wayne and they don't even have powers that'd easily justify that (although Stark does have his technical genius to market). Hmmm now I wonder how much insider trading Batman does since as the 'guy who knows everything' you'd have to imagine that'd include information on his various business competitors letting him outwit them at every turn to get what he wants.

After that 60 Minutes episode last Sunday I think a hero with powers like Hyper-Invention, Elemental Conversion,and Molecular Conversion would be a premium value dealing with the massive amounts of waste we generate when it comes to computers and treating things like cell phones as such disposable garbage. The reminder of the hideous living conditions people in places like China and other countries with little to no legal protections from that kind of hell would make for some serious good karma putting such powers to use recycling as much of that as possible. With Hyper-Invention alone a lot of that broken waste could be refurbished and put to use in places where while it's treated as obsolete here would still provide valuable service in other places.

Just as a clarification. The previous debate on this topic wasn't that Heroes shouldn't use their powers to make money, it was that they shouldn't get a free resources boost from their power without spending karma to increase their resources score. If your power could potentially generate AM resources, but your PC only has it at Remarkable, then that means that for whatever reason, your hero isn't making the full potential resources score, be it paying taxes, donations to charity, they can't spend all the time they want generating wealth because they're out heroing, or whatever. If a player wants to make money from their powers, that's a fine IC justification for a karma spend to up resources. You just shouldn't get the increase without paying for it, otherwise noone would invest in a resources score at creation.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as a clarification. The previous debate on
> this topic wasn't that Heroes shouldn't use their
> powers to make money, it was that they shouldn't
> get a free resources boost from their power
> without spending karma to increase their resources
> score. If your power could potentially generate
> AM resources, but your PC only has it at
> Remarkable, then that means that for whatever
> reason, your hero isn't making the full potential
> resources score, be it paying taxes, donations to
> charity, they can't spend all the time they want
> generating wealth because they're out heroing, or
> whatever. If a player wants to make money from
> their powers, that's a fine IC justification for a
> karma spend to up resources. You just shouldn't
> get the increase without paying for it, otherwise
> noone would invest in a resources score at
> creation.

That's more in the realm of an assumption than a certainty. Including the assumption that everything eats karma and powers no matter how obviously suited for it give no Resource help at all other than justifying spending all the karma to raise the Resource rank even though someone without any powers and the same Resource rank could move it up just as easily 'because he spent the karma'.

Someone running the trifecta of of powers with obvious Resource applications (Molecular Conversion, Artifact Creation, Mechanical Creation) and able to create anything and everything he needs rather than purchase things and chooses to go that route actually doesn't need a Resource rank and wouldn't have to make any investments in a Resource rank if he didn't want to. It's completely contrary to logic that he'd be unable to use his powers to create what he wants/needs without a Resource rank or augment an existing Resource Rank by adding what his powers can create onto what he could purchase from his day job's income.

Even less sensible that someone can take talents like Business/Finance or Engineering for the Resource Boost they apply without any complaint yet be told a power that's far and above beyond what the talent can do can't gain any Resource help at all or suffer severe penalties trying to do so.

Nightmask Wrote:
> That's more in the realm of an assumption than a
> certainty. Including the assumption that
> everything eats karma and powers no matter how
> obviously suited for it give no Resource help at
> all other than justifying spending all the karma
> to raise the Resource rank even though someone
> without any powers and the same Resource rank
> could move it up just as easily 'because he spent
> the karma'.

Um no. They could have different justifications. no Judge who's worth a damn just allows a player to spend karma 'just because'. You have to have a reason for the spend to be valid. Now a temporary +CS boost is fine in the short term, but if you want permanent access to that level then Karma should be spent to reflect the permanent increase.


>
> Someone running the trifecta of of powers with
> obvious Resource applications (Molecular
> Conversion, Artifact Creation, Mechanical
> Creation) and able to create anything and
> everything he needs rather than purchase things
> and chooses to go that route actually doesn't need
> a Resource rank and wouldn't have to make any
> investments in a Resource rank if he didn't want
> to. It's completely contrary to logic that he'd
> be unable to use his powers to create what he
> wants/needs without a Resource rank or augment an
> existing Resource Rank by adding what his powers
> can create onto what he could purchase from his
> day job's income.


Sure he /could/ do it, but probably isn't for reasons such as: 1) He doesn't want to start generating levels of wealth that will alert the IRS and potentially compromise his secret ID, 2) He is using his powers at that level, but his Resources rank isn't increasing because the taxes are more of a beast than he expected and doesn't have the time in the day to make up for the loss to uncle Sam as well as still go out and superhero, 3) He gives himself temporary boosts to his Resources score when the needs justify, but doesn't want to start pissing off the Gold producing nations of the world by creating a lot of gold he can sell for himself, but ultimately devaluing the commodity. If you haven't spent the karma to permanently increase the resources score, than any of the above should explain why your score is at 20 insrtead of 75

>
> Even less sensible that someone can take talents
> like Business/Finance or Engineering for the
> Resource Boost they apply without any complaint
> yet be told a power that's far and above beyond
> what the talent can do can't gain any Resource
> help at all or suffer severe penalties trying to
> do so.

Um actually this is not at all logical. If you have the above powers without the above talents, then that probably means your character /doesn't know how/ to maintain wealth at that level. it's the lotto curse, you got a bunch of money you don't know how to handle and two years later you're back in the poor house.

> Um no. They could have different justifications.
> no Judge who's worth a damn just allows a player
> to spend karma 'just because'. You have to have a
> reason for the spend to be valid. Now a temporary
> +CS boost is fine in the short term, but if you
> want permanent access to that level then Karma
> should be spent to reflect the permanent
> increase.

Well now you argue that someone must spend karma to gain any Resource benefits, then dismiss someone trying to do so 'just because' when the karma's being spent to explain an increase in Resources.


> Sure he /could/ do it, but probably isn't for
> reasons such as: 1) He doesn't want to start
> generating levels of wealth that will alert the
> IRS and potentially compromise his secret ID, 2)
> He is using his powers at that level, but his
> Resources rank isn't increasing because the taxes
> are more of a beast than he expected and doesn't
> have the time in the day to make up for the loss
> to uncle Sam as well as still go out and
> superhero, 3) He gives himself temporary boosts to
> his Resources score when the needs justify, but
> doesn't want to start pissing off the Gold
> producing nations of the world by creating a lot
> of gold he can sell for himself, but ultimately
> devaluing the commodity. If you haven't spent the
> karma to permanently increase the resources score,
> than any of the above should explain why your
> score is at 20 insrtead of 75

I think you might have missed the point that in the example given he's not buying anything from anyone, he's creating it all himself. He wants a new deluxe Cell-phone he just creates it with his powers, or a steak for dinner, or new furniture for his living room. He's not making gold and trying to sell it or trade it for something he wants he just does it himself and bypasses everyone else. It's no different than an Amishman building his own house and furniture from his own available raw materials his farm supplies to him, just gets it done faster.

> Um actually this is not at all logical. If you
> have the above powers without the above talents,
> then that probably means your character /doesn't
> know how/ to maintain wealth at that level. it's
> the lotto curse, you got a bunch of money you
> don't know how to handle and two years later
> you're back in the poor house.

Except that's not what those talents mean. Business/Finance you're better at managing your money, taking the money at the level you have it at and finding the quality bargains that others without it can't find. Engineering talent isn't giving you any more money to buy parts to build something with it's improving your ability to take what you do have and make it work without some of the excess someone without the talent would include. Similar to how you can make a logic gate out of a lot of discrete components but cost you a lot more because you didn't use the cheap IC chip for the job instead. The powers that can give Resources help are renewing and available every day of the week so always there to provide you with Resource improvements any and every day you want. Just as Wolverine's Immorality is always there for him granting its benefits, or Reed Richards Genius.

Honestly Nightmask. i think you should really just say that you think that certain powers should allow for free Resources ranks, period. end. stop. That's fine if that's your philosophy, but trying to say that paying Karma for advancing a rank is somehow unfair just rings really hollow.

Nightmask Wrote:
> Well now you argue that someone must spend karma
> to gain any Resource benefits, then dismiss
> someone trying to do so 'just because' when the
> karma's being spent to explain an increase in
> Resources.

I don't understand how you don't get this. To advance you need two things 1) an in character justification to advance and 2) the karma to spend to increase your score. They work hand in hand, and are not mutually exclusive. If you have one and not the other, you cannot advance. You must have both. Hope that clears this point of contention up.

>
> I think you might have missed the point that in
> the example given he's not buying anything from
> anyone, he's creating it all himself. He wants a
> new deluxe Cell-phone he just creates it with his
> powers, or a steak for dinner, or new furniture
> for his living room. He's not making gold and
> trying to sell it or trade it for something he
> wants he just does it himself and bypasses
> everyone else. It's no different than an Amishman
> building his own house and furniture from his own
> available raw materials his farm supplies to him,
> just gets it done faster.

And the Resources rank is reflective of the level of items he can create as permanent fixtures and have readilly accessible from that point forward. Even if it's not monetary wealth, the IRS will still go after you if you own a great deal of luxury items without the income to justify it. It needn't be money, but that's just the easiest example to work with.

> Except that's not what those talents mean.
> Business/Finance you're better at managing your
> money, taking the money at the level you have it
> at and finding the quality bargains that others
> without it can't find. Engineering talent isn't
> giving you any more money to buy parts to build
> something with it's improving your ability to take
> what you do have and make it work without some of
> the excess someone without the talent would
> include. Similar to how you can make a logic gate
> out of a lot of discrete components but cost you a
> lot more because you didn't use the cheap IC chip
> for the job instead. The powers that can give
> Resources help are renewing and available every
> day of the week so always there to provide you
> with Resource improvements any and every day you
> want. Just as Wolverine's Immorality is always
> there for him granting its benefits, or Reed
> Richards Genius.

But what does Wolverine's healing factor grant him the ability to do beyond heal? What does Reed Richards' reason score allow him to do beyond make a roll to try and develop something? The fact of the matter is though, you're missing the point. Not having the talents in question can help explain why you have yet to advance your resources score based on a power-justification. yes you can use your power to create wealth of a certain stripe, but it doesn't last because you lack the ability to maintain the wealth whatever shape it takes. Further, pruchasing the talent (after an IC justification of course) could further serve as yet another justification to begin increasing your resources score. But of course, this still means you don't get it for free.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Honestly Nightmask. i think you should really
> just say that you think that certain powers should
> allow for free Resources ranks, period. end.
> stop. That's fine if that's your philosophy, but
> trying to say that paying Karma for advancing a
> rank is somehow unfair just rings really hollow.

I never said that, I've stated that some powers are quite justified in it, when there's no complaint at all for a talent allowing for it it rings hollow to state that someone with powers suited to it don't.

> I don't understand how you don't get this. To
> advance you need two things 1) an in character
> justification to advance and 2) the karma to spend
> to increase your score. They work hand in hand,
> and are not mutually exclusive. If you have one
> and not the other, you cannot advance. You must
> have both. Hope that clears this point of
> contention up.

That's fine as the conventional way of doing it, but that isn't or shouldn't be considered the only way of doing it. Resources are no where near that static in the real world and even less-so in the comics. We've seen Spider-man go up and down, and Stark's had a yo-yo job from Incredible down to Shift-0 drunk on the street back up to Monstrous that just can't be justified in the game because it'd be impossible for one to earn that kind of karma for one and because Resources are only set up in the game to go up if you stick only to the rules in the book.

> And the Resources rank is reflective of the level
> of items he can create as permanent fixtures and
> have readilly accessible from that point forward.
> Even if it's not monetary wealth, the IRS will
> still go after you if you own a great deal of
> luxury items without the income to justify it. It
> needn't be money, but that's just the easiest
> example to work with.

Uh no, the Resource rank has nothing to do with what he can produce permanently with his powers. His powers define that. His Resource rank is what he can purchase from others outside of himself and having a house stocked with expensive items doesn't mean anything since for one the IRS has no reason at all to be involved in knowing you have them and taxes are based on purchasing items, occasionally on how you're gifted something, simply having an item doesn't mean you are required to pay taxes on it. Trying to sell it to someone later obviously taxes would be involved but for your personal use no.

> But what does Wolverine's healing factor grant him
> the ability to do beyond heal? What does Reed
> Richards' reason score allow him to do beyond make
> a roll to try and develop something? The fact of
> the matter is though, you're missing the point.
> Not having the talents in question can help
> explain why you have yet to advance your resources
> score based on a power-justification. yes you can
> use your power to create wealth of a certain
> stripe, but it doesn't last because you lack the
> ability to maintain the wealth whatever shape it
> takes. Further, pruchasing the talent (after an
> IC justification of course) could further serve as
> yet another justification to begin increasing your
> resources score. But of course, this still means
> you don't get it for free.

it seems like the breakdown between us is you feel anything you get that hasn't been a karma-draining event is an unfair deal of 'getting it free' when it isn't. You use powers to turn junk into a home entertainment center the idea it somehow evaporates because you didn't spend karma to justify it just doesn't make sense. Just because to the outside world you've got a Good Resource Rank from your Car Repair Shop nothing about that means you shouldn't be able to use your powers to enjoy stuff that's only purchasable with Incredible Resources publicly.

My original (and at the time SOLE) copy of the UPB got lent to a guy who was going to help me compile a list of commercial ventures appropriate for each power. I never heard from him again and it was 5 years before I had another copy of my own book.
(Nowadays I keep 6 on hand, plus numeropus PDF copies.)

My feeling is that in a world of plentiful superpowers, most folks will find a way to make money off them. A certain percenatge will technically become supercriminals as they use theor powers for petty theft, smuggling, or extortion. A very few will become superheroes. But most folks will try to find a way to make a safe steady paycheck possible.
Every time I see a moving van, I think how useful Shrink Rays would be. Or Gravity Manipulation.

My own pet superpower fanatsy involves Portal Rings. Imagine making a ring. Now slice the ring into two rings. But because of (insert super-science or magic here) the rings are still dimensionally linked. Anything passes into one half disappears and immediately reappears in the matched ring half.
Set a network of clearly labelled rings around the world in post offices.
Set a ring in a river near the sea. Set the other half in a desert.
Set a lot of rings outside an Arctic base. Set the other sides in hot places.
Set a ring outdoors. Set the other half in a sub.
Set a ring near a factory complex. Take the other half to the Moon.
.....and so forth......

DavidEMartin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My own pet superpower fanatsy involves Portal Rings. Imagine making a ring. Now slice the ring into two rings. But because of (insert super-science or magic here) the rings are still dimensionally linked. Anything passes into one half disappears and immediately reappears in the matched ring half.
> Set a network of clearly labelled rings around the world in post offices.
> Set a ring in a river near the sea. Set the other half in a desert.
> Set a lot of rings outside an Arctic base. Set the other sides in hot places.
> Set a ring outdoors. Set the other half in a sub.
> Set a ring near a factory complex. Take the other half to the Moon.

The post office one would still take them a few days to get your mail to you cuz its the post office and they'd charge you more for some reason.

The river one would put lots of water onto sand, which would cause not much, though if you put the other end into a well in the desert by a village.... Storm found out in the cartoons that bringing water to one area of the desert stole it from another, every thing has balance.

Arctic rings would cause a problem as it'd melt ice (which people are complaining about already) if it was hot enough on the other end (portal in volcano) or wouldn't be hot enough to do any thing (leave your window open on your house in the winter, does it heat the outside or cool your house off?) Put a hot portal inside an Arctic base and I'm sure it'd help then.

The ring in the sub would be tough as the sub moves and rings need to be set in a single place normally.

I honestly don't know how dumping pollution on the moon would work out, though having a portal near the sun, that's different.

The thing with your idea for this, which have some good points, is would the use of this or any other power put a lot of people out of a job? A guy who has super speed can assemble some thing in a few seconds that would take an hour and can do a days work in a half hour lets say, How many less people would the company need? You can only sell so many things after all and warehouse fill up fast at this speed. If you can hand an item through a portal, who needs to pay truck drivers? Now I'm sure if you offered up your services to the government (Open a portal to pass secret papers lets say) then you'd make money and not put too many folks out of work.

> The post office one would still take them a few
> days to get your mail to you cuz its the post
> office and they'd charge you more for some
> reason.

Well they likely wouldn't charge more but even with truck-sized gates for the distribution of things you still require time to sort out the packages and disperse them particularly if the gates are fixed destination gates because it's a physical impossibility to set up enough fixed gates in every location to allow direct point A to B transfer, you'd most likely have it as you see in RL with point A to point D over to point G down to point I and finally over to point B.

> The river one would put lots of water onto sand,
> which would cause not much, though if you put the
> other end into a well in the desert by a
> village.... Storm found out in the cartoons that
> bringing water to one area of the desert stole it
> from another, every thing has balance.

That much is quite true, and as we've seen with California the huge demands to make that desert area into fertile land has resorted in turning one river into such a victim that if not for international law requiring we allow some of the water into Mexico the river wouldn't even make it to the border nowadays.


> I honestly don't know how dumping pollution on the
> moon would work out, though having a portal near
> the sun, that's different.

That's mostly just trying to avoid the problem of pollution and work to get as close to 100% recycling as possible (and Moonbase One can tell you what happens when you store too much nuclear waste on the moon...), and the sun portal would likely be hazardous since you'd have all that radiation from the sun coming through it back to earth.

> The thing with your idea for this, which have some
> good points, is would the use of this or any other
> power put a lot of people out of a job? A guy who
> has super speed can assemble some thing in a few
> seconds that would take an hour and can do a days
> work in a half hour lets say, How many less people
> would the company need? You can only sell so many
> things after all and warehouse fill up fast at
> this speed. If you can hand an item through a
> portal, who needs to pay truck drivers? Now I'm
> sure if you offered up your services to the
> government (Open a portal to pass secret papers
> lets say) then you'd make money and not put too
> many folks out of work.

You'd still need truck drivers, albeit not as many, to move goods around from the areas set up for rapid transfer to those that aren't. The Hyper-Speed character example is interesting since while on a personal level he's improving himself quite a bit the contribution overall depending on the product isn't going to be great. Plus as has been noted for Hyper-Speed you still tire at the same rate so doing 8hrs of work in a minute means you're now fully exhausted and have to recover before you can do more. Also there's a little too much focus on people going out of work if a super-hero's powers let him do a particular job easier than a non-super as the increase in efficiency from his work is causing a range of benefits for everyone and if we blocked innovation because it put people out of work we'd have never developed society beyond the village level.

I had not thought of the reason Moonbase Alpha was there.
My thought was BUILDING Moonbase Alpha.
Harry Harrison in one of his Nine Steps From Earth teleportation stories brought that to mind. You take a small ship and crew, say, an Apollo mission, and take the Portal Ring to the Moon. Once you are there, the aforementioned industrial complex starts shoving the prefab parts of MoonBase Alpha through the ring and fabricating the rest of the structure as needed.