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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

I would argue that since they're exerting their willpower to control the powers that let them lift those things that the false argument would be for them to have Shift-Z and CL5000 Psyche, not Strength.

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Nightmask
That would be false. This case for example, Reed's Agility represents his natural agility WITHOUT his powers doing anything or substituting, and his natural agility is NOT Olympic class and has NEVER been shown being that exceptional. Reed makes power feats to dodge because his POWERS are doing the work NOT his agility, because he's not that agile.

Never?! I've uploaded scan after scan showing Reed's agility and quickness for which he has trained long hours increasing whether he was using his stretching or not. His powers don't just do the work for him; they make him into what he is. They've empowered his physical abilities.

Johnny Storm has Excellent agility. Is he an Olympic level athlete?

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Nightmask
That's the kind of logic you see out of a conspiracy nut, when they go 'some conspiracies are real so this conspiracy must be real' when it's not.

So everyone who disagrees with you is a conspiracy nut?! Nobody here is accusing Marvel Comics or the game of the conspiracy of nerfing Reed Richards's abilities. There were a whole lot of characters to list within a limited amount of time so mistakes were made. These things happen.

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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

Graviton and Molecule Man use a form of telekinesis based on gravity and transmutation respectively. Neither of these guys physically picks things up the way Reed has done. Reed's stretching allows him to take hold of objects several yards away. If his elastic body had not increased his strength in some way, he would not have been able to take hold or pick up such heavy objects like the Thing or mechanical devices he has carried around without any kind of strain.

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

I would argue that since they're exerting their willpower to control the powers that let them lift those things that the false argument would be for them to have Shift-Z and CL5000 Psyche, not Strength.

It applies just as well to the flawed argument we're getting that Reed should have ridiculously high stats for his Agility and Strength for things his powers are doing, particularly since Graviton isn't making a Psyche feat he's making a power feat just like Molecule Man would be. When the powers are what's doing it then claiming that they should have a stat increase to match is ridiculous in any case. It's not like Ben whose powers explicitly increase his Strength and Endurance while in his rocky form.

I admit I have not played nearly enough MSH to be a good judge on this matter... But if I was the Judge here I'd allow him to use his power rank instead of his agility for certain dodge feats if applicable maybe at a reduced rank of -1 or -2 depending on what exactly he is trying to dodge.

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Howlet
I admit I have not played nearly enough MSH to be a good judge on this matter... But if I was the Judge here I'd allow him to use his power rank instead of his agility for certain dodge feats if applicable maybe at a reduced rank of -1 or -2 depending on what exactly he is trying to dodge.

And you would not be wrong to do so. Mr. Fantastic has been seen stretching and bending his body to avoid attacks. I would allow him to do so at his full power rank because trying to hit someone who can move like this should be much harder than hitting even a normal person of Remarkable Agility.

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Nightmask

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

I would argue that since they're exerting their willpower to control the powers that let them lift those things that the false argument would be for them to have Shift-Z and CL5000 Psyche, not Strength.

It applies just as well to the flawed argument we're getting that Reed should have ridiculously high stats for his Agility and Strength for things his powers are doing, particularly since Graviton isn't making a Psyche feat he's making a power feat just like Molecule Man would be. When the powers are what's doing it then claiming that they should have a stat increase to match is ridiculous in any case.

I get that they aren't actually needing to make Psyche FEATs, just pointing out the powers they're using aren't something they're doing physically with their body like Reed Richards does with his; Graviton uses his powers by force of will, so it would make more sense (even though wrong) to assert his willpower (Psyche) must be as high as what his powers are capable of to effectively use them. Again, a blatantly wrong argument, but it's the same kind of wrong as saying someone who seems more agile because of how crazy they can bend and move their body would somehow give them a higher Agility rank.

Bump.

Distracting discourse

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

I would argue that since they're exerting their willpower to control the powers that let them lift those things that the false argument would be for them to have Shift-Z and CL5000 Psyche, not Strength.

It applies just as well to the flawed argument we're getting that Reed should have ridiculously high stats for his Agility and Strength for things his powers are doing, particularly since Graviton isn't making a Psyche feat he's making a power feat just like Molecule Man would be. When the powers are what's doing it then claiming that they should have a stat increase to match is ridiculous in any case.

I get that they aren't actually needing to make Psyche FEATs, just pointing out the powers they're using aren't something they're doing physically with their body like Reed Richards does with his; Graviton uses his powers by force of will, so it would make more sense (even though wrong) to assert his willpower (Psyche) must be as high as what his powers are capable of to effectively use them. Again, a blatantly wrong argument, but it's the same kind of wrong as saying someone who seems more agile because of how crazy they can bend and move their body would somehow give them a higher Agility rank.

When a power is part of a body, such as super strength its not a power stunt to me, rather part of the character's FASERIP.

I think Reed has Superhuman strength baked into his body at the Remarkable level.

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Taarna

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

I would argue that since they're exerting their willpower to control the powers that let them lift those things that the false argument would be for them to have Shift-Z and CL5000 Psyche, not Strength.

It applies just as well to the flawed argument we're getting that Reed should have ridiculously high stats for his Agility and Strength for things his powers are doing, particularly since Graviton isn't making a Psyche feat he's making a power feat just like Molecule Man would be. When the powers are what's doing it then claiming that they should have a stat increase to match is ridiculous in any case.

I get that they aren't actually needing to make Psyche FEATs, just pointing out the powers they're using aren't something they're doing physically with their body like Reed Richards does with his; Graviton uses his powers by force of will, so it would make more sense (even though wrong) to assert his willpower (Psyche) must be as high as what his powers are capable of to effectively use them. Again, a blatantly wrong argument, but it's the same kind of wrong as saying someone who seems more agile because of how crazy they can bend and move their body would somehow give them a higher Agility rank.

When a power is part of a body, such as super strength its not a power stunt to me, rather part of the character's FASERIP.

I think Reed has Superhuman strength baked into his body at the Remarkable level.

And that's where you fail in your argument, Reed doesn't have Super-strength, it's not part of him he's faking it with his powers. Since he's faking it it is inherently not part of his FASERIP. Doesn't matter whether someone's using tactile telekinesis to lift something, control over magnetism or like Reed using his elasticity to fake it it's still faking it it's not part of their Strength. You never see Reed moving anything super-heavy without using his powers to do it, he's never shown maintaining his normal physique in such cases he's always stretching or distorting his body in some fashion therefor it's not part of his Strength stat. ALL of Reed's write-ups and descriptions over the years have made it clear that he has normal human strength for someone of his build and does moderate exercise, that his powers are doing the work to fake anything higher. If you're faking it you don't have it.

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Thrudjelmer

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Howlet
I admit I have not played nearly enough MSH to be a good judge on this matter... But if I was the Judge here I'd allow him to use his power rank instead of his agility for certain dodge feats if applicable maybe at a reduced rank of -1 or -2 depending on what exactly he is trying to dodge.

And you would not be wrong to do so. Mr. Fantastic has been seen stretching and bending his body to avoid attacks. I would allow him to do so at his full power rank because trying to hit someone who can move like this should be much harder than hitting even a normal person of Remarkable Agility.

100%. The agility or dodging displayed is probably at the incredible to amazing level.

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Nightmask

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Taarna

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask

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Thrudjelmer

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Nightmask
If things worked how you argue then Graviton would have Shift-Z Strength because he can use his powers to lift entire mountains and Molecule Man would have CL5000 Strength since HIS powers can move entire galaxies if he feels like it. Obviously that's absurd and so is Reed with Remarkable Agility or Excellent Strength.

I would argue that since they're exerting their willpower to control the powers that let them lift those things that the false argument would be for them to have Shift-Z and CL5000 Psyche, not Strength.

It applies just as well to the flawed argument we're getting that Reed should have ridiculously high stats for his Agility and Strength for things his powers are doing, particularly since Graviton isn't making a Psyche feat he's making a power feat just like Molecule Man would be. When the powers are what's doing it then claiming that they should have a stat increase to match is ridiculous in any case.

I get that they aren't actually needing to make Psyche FEATs, just pointing out the powers they're using aren't something they're doing physically with their body like Reed Richards does with his; Graviton uses his powers by force of will, so it would make more sense (even though wrong) to assert his willpower (Psyche) must be as high as what his powers are capable of to effectively use them. Again, a blatantly wrong argument, but it's the same kind of wrong as saying someone who seems more agile because of how crazy they can bend and move their body would somehow give them a higher Agility rank.

When a power is part of a body, such as super strength its not a power stunt to me, rather part of the character's FASERIP.

I think Reed has Superhuman strength baked into his body at the Remarkable level.

And that's where you fail in your argument, Reed doesn't have Super-strength, it's not part of him he's faking it with his powers. Since he's faking it it is inherently not part of his FASERIP. Doesn't matter whether someone's using tactile telekinesis to lift something, control over magnetism or like Reed using his elasticity to fake it it's still faking it it's not part of their Strength. You never see Reed moving anything super-heavy without using his powers to do it, he's never shown maintaining his normal physique in such cases he's always stretching or distorting his body in some fashion therefor it's not part of his Strength stat. ALL of Reed's write-ups and descriptions over the years have made it clear that he has normal human strength for someone of his build and does moderate exercise, that his powers are doing the work to fake anything higher. If you're faking it you don't have it.

I view strength like natural body armor if your power grants it to you.

But putting that aside for the moment, when using his powers what do you think Reed's strength level is? And wouldn't you say if he does have superhuman strength when using his powers, he should hit for more than typical damage?