I don't know, Lizard's done a pretty good job taking out Spider-man over the years, being stronger and more durable and enjoying that armored skin of his plus his prehensile tail for an extra attack. Beast isn't in Spider-man's class (he's not that close to Spider-man in agility) and brains will only carry you so far in a battle for survival which is what you'd be in fighting the Lizard as he's a kill-or-be-killed type. Some incarnations of the Lizard also make some or full use of the genius of the human side so Beast doesn't have as much of an advantage as he'd favor in that zone either.

Havok Vs. Absorbing Man

Reason i thought of it, sides being a huge Havok fan (newly converted to since i was never really an X-Fan till recently), is that these two seem like a pretty good match up. A guy who can become anything and a guy who asborbs energy and converts it to another. Match that seems to loop in my mind, even if AM makes the mistake of changing into the energy type ol Havok absorbs he can still reform later upon release, hell maybe even inside ol Havok, joy.

Good points NM. Spider-Man has always come out on top, though, and the Beast has to be more agile than Lizard (at least in terms of acrobatic movement and reaction speed). In a punch-up, I agree Beast would lose (bloodily), but that's the last strategy Beast would employ. I still gotta lean towards the brains.

I don't recall Lizard being that smart, but I could have missed some incarnations. I'll defer to your judgment on those.

Thanks, although the Beast doesn't have to be faster than the Lizard, as he's deceptively fast and reptiles can be surprisingly fast although he does have limitations like his vulnerability to heat and cold since his metabolism becomes cold-blooded when transformed rather than warm-blooded. I imagine for a meeting between the two the Beast would underestimate his opponent (as Spider-man did when they first met) and get nailed for the same reasons Spider-man did and end up on the defensive trying to recover and find a way to cope. Since Lizard goes in and doesn't let up Beast would be hard-pressed to find that time to recover.

the would be interesting to see what would happen if absorbing man became energy and got absorbed into Havok.

I also wonder what would happen if Sandman and Dust ever met. I know when sandman and hydroman met they became an almost mindless mass of living wet sand, but being as Dust and Sandman are both would it have the same effect or would it becoem a battle of the minds to see who would control who

Given that Absorbing Man absorbing Havok's power wouldn't let him do any harm to Havok (he's immune to his own attacks along with his brother's) he'd likely go after other materials that'd let him attack Havok on a more physical level (although with some idiot writer deciding AM was a retarded idiot dumber than the Green Hulk and a drug addict a baby could outwit him at this point). Going by him at his more intelligent AM does have a chance against Havok if he's in an environment with materials he could absorb that'd let him move the fight to the physical level where he'd have the advantage over Havok who's not much above the human norm for his FASE.

I thought it was an intersting story making AM a cocaine addict and having him absorb and become cocaine i thought it was a very original idea. Drugs are a big problem in the real world. Be it things like cocaine and herion or prescription drugs. Id like tosee more stories that involved super heroes and villians and drugs. Take steriods alot of people think steriods are taken just to make you stronger and look like hulk hogan, but what they dont realize is alot of athletes take steriods to accelerate their healing process. Not every hero has a healing factor like Wolverine, or have a mutant with healing powers like the x-men to help heal everyones battle wounds. Characters like the Punisher, Hawkeye, Night Thrasher, Daredevil,Nightwing,...ect ect have no healing abilities the way they fight im sure they would have torn muscles, blown ACLs, all kinds of broken bones. It would stand to reason that characters like this might be getting a little help in healing their wounds or maintaining that peak human ability they have. maybe they have a slight dependency to pain killers. Speedball for example has been said to be on medication, well most medication that is given for depression Schizophrenia, bi polar disorder and other simular mental disorders is very habit forming. One of the best story lines ever was Tony Stark and his problem with the booze. Its not uncommon for cops to become addicted to drugs like meth, cocaine or herion, becasue they are always around it and have easy access to it from drug bust and what not. so why should it be any differnt for the street heroes to sometimes mess up and develope an addiction

There was actually an interesting storyline about that such thing in Young Avengers. The original writer himself had a difficult battle with steroids and wanted to do an analogous story. Anyways I digress. When Iron Lad came from the future, one of the new heroes he sought to recruit was the grandson of the Original Super Soldier. However the grandson he was looking for had disappeared, and instead found Eli Bradley, who in truth had no powers whatsoever, whereas his brother did inherit super soldier traits. Eli claimed he had the same abilities and used MGH [mutant growth hormone] to compensate. Eventually, the MGH stopped working and he tried to get his hands on Mr. Hyde's formula. Anyways, not to blow the whole story, it was a good allegory to performance enhancers.

Yep, it's a late response, but I don't know what version of Godzilla would lose to Foom? Except for the dumb one that fought King Kong! Godzilla is a freak of nature and more than just some lizard! Only the retarded Godzilla in the American version with Matthew Broderick is a lizard! If anything the most likely connection that has been made to what Godzilla is, has been a T-Rex [we do know that dinosaurs are more like birds than lizards]. Ultimately the name Gojira has a meaning and it is an amalgamation that means Gorilla Whale! So folks can "kindly" stuff that lizard implication.

that was a good story, and id like to see more lik eit except using real world drugs. Im sure there has to be a few hero or villians with pain killer addictions, mabe even a hero die from substance abuse. I think if doen right it could be a meaningful story and maybe at the same time make some younger readers aware that drugs is more than just cocaine and weed. Look at pro wrestlers there are alot who have died bfore the age of 50. I rember a few years ago the wrestler known as Crash Holly died becausue he at a bunch of pain killers and drinking and wound up throwing up in his sleep and drowned in his own puke. Another real world problem i would like to see adressed his heroes and villians becomming perminatly punch drunk. They say one of the things that made Chris Benoit snap was a combination of drug abuse and the fact his brain was severly damaged from so many blows to the head. Joe Frasier, and Muhamid Ali are also examples of what happens when you get hit to many times....but enough on my soap box im getting off topic of the versus thread

Except the story of Absorbing Man being a cocaine addict made no sense and was very much a discontinuity for the character. He was shown with little intelligence and with a drug addiction he'd never previously shown and after he'd been very romantically tied with Titania and so grateful to Thor for curing her of her cancer he pledged himself to supporting Thor and while the Reigning was averted before it became a humanity-smothering event there was no reason for Creel to go back to doing evil and especially nothing to explain or justify why he'd take up something as stupid as drug use (beyond drinking and while he might have had a few periods of drunkenness he's never been shown even having a problem with drinking let alone harder drugs). The writer might have liked the idea of 'oooo let's turn Creel into cocaine and have people snorting him and getting his powers briefly' but his storytelling left much to be desired for actual content with how he went about it. Plus the 'public gets random powers and causes much difficulty for the lone hero trying to contain them' has been somewhat overdone and too close in time to the events with the Wellspring in Thunderbolts causing countless humans to get random superpowers.

you do realize alot of people all it takes is trying cocaine one time and they become hooked and it can make you act real dumb, plus its not like creel was a rocket scientist to begin with, he seems to be a career criminal and alot of criminals will reform only to fail back in with the wrong crowd and revert to their old ways, and i thought titania broke up with him and thats what lead to him going back to crime and falling into drug use

civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good points NM. Spider-Man has always come out on
> top, though, and the Beast has to be more agile
> than Lizard (at least in terms of acrobatic
> movement and reaction speed). In a punch-up, I
> agree Beast would lose (bloodily), but that's the
> last strategy Beast would employ. I still gotta
> lean towards the brains.
>
> I don't recall Lizard being that smart, but I
> could have missed some incarnations. I'll defer to
> your judgment on those.

This is how I see it. The Lizard has the edge. The Beast would need to use resources around him to win. I'll go with the Lizard, but what a battle it would be.

on Beast vs. Lizard, Beast any day of the week. Physically, they're a bit of a wash, both incredibly strong, and incredibly tough, and Lizard has a slight edge with resilience. Downside for Doc Connors is that as the lizard, he's just a dumb animal, and Beast's advantage is he's a genius. beast isn't dumb enough to underestimate an opponent. He's been training for combat since he was what, 15? He's been through both the Xavier school of warfare as well as trained as an Avenger. And the Lizard? well, he's a big lizard. beast's experience alongside his sheer intellect has him tricking the lizard into following him right into a cold storage of some sort.

Being a genius isn't a guarantee of success, especially a hands-down victory. Look how often everything from NYC to the Multiverse have been at stake because Reed Richards was so focused on being clever he lost sight of the objective? Main continuity may not be able to show such losses but versions of him like the Dark Rider show how easy it is for a genius to screw things up. Being smarter isn't just going to provide more options but also more opportunities to mess up especially for anyone who feels he has to show how smart he is or too smart to see the simple route to victory.

Creel wasn't dumber than a box of rocks either and he's been clever enough to cause trouble for the Avengers putting him in the Typical Reason rank and not the Feeble level demonstrated during the drug-abusing Creel storyarc. Just because he talks crude doesn't mean he's stupid (otherwise all those who speak ghetto must be stupid because it certainly doesn't let you sound smart) and being a brute doesn't mean he has to be stupid either. There are plenty of fairly smart people in prison who wasted that going the thug route and the lazy route to money by robbing people or stealing things. If he were going to lose it he's far more likely to go on a destructive rampage instead of drugging himself up as violence is his patterned response to problems.

Like i said, his intellect isn't the only advantage. he's also recieved top tier combat training since he was in puberty, and lizard? well he's still just a big dumb Lizard.


Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Being a genius isn't a guarantee of success,
> especially a hands-down victory. Look how often
> everything from NYC to the Multiverse have been at
> stake because Reed Richards was so focused on
> being clever he lost sight of the objective? Main
> continuity may not be able to show such losses but
> versions of him like the Dark Rider show how easy
> it is for a genius to screw things up. Being
> smarter isn't just going to provide more options
> but also more opportunities to mess up especially
> for anyone who feels he has to show how smart he
> is or too smart to see the simple route to
> victory.

We may have covered this before, but I'm asking because I saw a picture from an Ultimates comic recently where it looked like Hyperion was owning Thor, and I began to weep. Any thoughts on how this thing would play out? Minus the Odin Force, of course. I realize that the Ultimates line may stat a bit differently than 616. I'm looking for mainstream Thor in this fight against Hyperion.

Well ultimate Thor isn't as unbeatable as 616 Thor, so it makes sense that Hyperion [Supreme Power Version] would have the upper hand for most of it. And as an aside, ultimate Thor gets his getbacks a bit later.

As for 616 Thor vs. Supreme Power Hyperion, hot damn that would be a good fight. But I think the achiles heel of 616 Thor is his honor. In might, he's a match for Supreme Power Hyperion, maybe even a bit more than Hyperion. But the Supreme Power guys are a bunch of underhanded cheaters, the lot of them. I see Hyperion crossing lines that Thor wouldn't cross, at least initially, and it winds up costing the God of Thunder. Of course, i need to see how he fares against Red Hulk next month to be sure what the current 616 Thor is capable of.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well ultimate Thor isn't as unbeatable as 616
> Thor, so it makes sense that Hyperion would have
> the upper hand for most of it. And as an aside,
> ultimate Thor gets his getbacks a bit later.

Good to know. Hate it when my boy get's knocked around like that.

> As for 616 Thor vs. Supreme Power Hyperion, hot
> damn that would be a good fight. But I think the
> achiles heel of 616 Thor is his honor. In might,
> he's a match for Supreme Power Hyperion, maybe
> even a bit more than Hyperion. But the Supreme
> Power guys are a bunch of underhanded cheaters,
> the lot of them. I see Hyperion crossing lines
> that Thor wouldn't cross, at least initially, and
> it winds up costing the God of Thunder. Of
> course, i need to see how he fares against Red
> Hulk next month to be sure what the current 616
> Thor is capable of.

Honestly, I've never really seen definitive statistic on the various versions of Hyperion. But from what your saying, it sounds like that Supreme Power version is the cat's meow, and not to be trifled with. The ranks for Hyperion, and sometimes even the powers, vary too much for me to make this determination on my own. Which is why I asked. Otherwise I just default on "Thor crushes him, 'cause he's my favorite!" type of thing.

Actually a good write-up on the various Hyperion's is in order I think here.

That'd be somewhat extensive as I think Marvel's had at least 5 versions by this point, including the original Squadron Sinister version, the Squadron Supreme version he was copied from later on, Supreme Power's version, a more recent version that showed up during the Wellspring Storyarc in Thunderbolts and the version the Exiles met. Oh and it's possible of the two Hyperions we saw to deal with the Evil version in Exiles is a sixth version (since he did have cybernetic eyes perhaps showing him to be a Hyperion from an earth where he burned his eyes out battling his duplicate like we saw but they didn't cross over to a variant of Earth-616 so never learned how to regrow his eyes like the original Hyperion did).

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That'd be somewhat extensive as I think Marvel's
> had at least 5 versions by this point, including
> the original Squadron Sinister version, the
> Squadron Supreme version he was copied from later
> on, Supreme Power's version, a more recent version
> that showed up during the Wellspring Storyarc in
> Thunderbolts and the version the Exiles met. Oh
> and it's possible of the two Hyperions we saw to
> deal with the Evil version in Exiles is a sixth
> version (since he did have cybernetic eyes perhaps
> showing him to be a Hyperion from an earth where
> he burned his eyes out battling his duplicate like
> we saw but they didn't cross over to a variant of
> Earth-616 so never learned how to regrow his eyes
> like the original Hyperion did).

That's why I think it's so important. He's gotten a significant amount of show time in the last few years and we've only got really old write-ups on him. Although Skycutter does have a pretty good coverage of Hyperion (Earth-31916), downloadable here:

[www.mediafire.com]

I'd love to know the fundamental differences between the versions, as demonstrated in the comics.

Quote
CapoCastillo Wrote:
CapoCastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Like i said, his intellect isn't the only
advantage. he's also recieved top tier combat
training since he was in puberty, and lizard?
well he's still just a big dumb Lizard.

The Lizzard is stronger, runs faster, has an extra tail attack, better body armor, and is rather agile and a good fighter himself. In fact, the Lizard jumps higher, and can wall climb just as well the Beast. While the Beast is hard to catch, he is up against a rather athletic and speedy opponent here.

The Beast would need to use ingenuity to win. Who has the Beast beaten by himself without the aid of some scientific invention or trap?

Well for openers he defeated Captain America in some annual where the Avengers and Defenders fought back in the day. That's not to say the beast hasn't beaten plenty of foes himself, but I think Captain America could take the Lizard out too, and usually is considered a hell of an opponent to beat in and of himself.

And you say beast would need to use ingenuity to beat the Lizard. I guess that's where the genius level intellect comes into play. Not to say the Lizard isn't dangerous, or that the Beast might not be evenly matched. but a Tyranasourus Rex is strong, fast, agile, and lethal too, and Beast has been to the Savage Land and back more times than i can count and has come out of it just fine. i doubt a smaller, less dangerous version of a dinosaur is up to the task.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CapoCastillo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Like i said, his intellect isn't the only
> advantage. he's also recieved top tier combat
> training since he was in puberty, and lizard?
> well he's still just a big dumb Lizard.
>
>
>
> The Lizzard is stronger, runs faster, has an extra
> tail attack, better body armor, and is rather
> agile and a good fighter himself. In fact, the
> Lizard jumps higher, and can wall climb just as
> well the Beast. While the Beast is hard to catch,
> he is up against a rather athletic and speedy
> opponent here.
>
> The Beast would need to use ingenuity to win. Who
> has the Beast beaten by himself without the aid of
> some scientific invention or trap?

Hard to say, the protoplasmic clone had a problem with pushing itself to the limit, the main hyperion couldn't handle using his atomic vision at full power for too long, and the Exiles version wasn't quite organic in the general sense given how he regenerated and while his boast of taking Galactus was likely taking and getting lucky with a starving one he did have the ability to trash an incarnation of the Hulk with ease so he's definitely running around the Shift X strength range normally. Afraid I haven't really seen any of the Supreme power stuff since it's not anything close to representing heroes to interest me so can't speak to their power levels.

I don't think I'd go rating the Lizard as less dangerous and the comparisons somewhat flawed since the Beast hasn't engaged in any one-on-one battle with any large dinosaurs as he knows he'd lose he runs and understandably hides in such a situation. With the Lizard though running and hiding aren't going to work for very long and he's superior in a number of areas to Beast.

That's actually the kind of information I was looking for. It seems they have run all over with him in the various stories. If people continue adding their understanding of the various versions, I'll compile the data and make some write-ups out of it. Something that's hopefully comprehensive and comparative.

Your tidbits are appreciated.

Well you know how it goes, Marvel's on its 'reimagining' kick so the powers for divergent reality versions go all over the place.

Okay I got one.

I've seen The Champion fight Thor, the Thing, and a couple others, but I have never seen a fight with Champion and Hulk.

It's hard to say who would win in my opinion because Champion is a experienced brawler and has tactical intelligence while hulk just goes around smashin and fights with anger and no tactics in sight. Yet the more angery the hulk gets the stronger he is and I've heard hes gotten his strength up to SHY.

In the end I would have to say Hulk, because he can raise his strength to insane levels with his anger.


Mr. Wolf
Fuzzy but Fierce

Hulk. Champion would frustrate hulk with wrestling holds and things like that, but the Hulk is the strongest there is, and he won't be stopped. And if we're talking Red Hulk, then i still give it to him, because he could outsmart the champion and bash his skull in.