The Last Duskblade Wrote:
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> This is a tough one for me to figure. If Carol is
> in her Binary form, I'm voting for her to win this
> one. Otherwise it may have to go to Supergirl.
>
> Thoughts?


I think I have to agree here. If its Binary vs this Supergirl, Id say binary takes it. As Ms Marvel the fight would be impressive but Supergirl wins in the end. Same hold true if Linda is the Angel of Fire Supergirl.

Thanks for the feedback brother. That is how I thought it would go too, but not knowing too much about Supergirl, I didn't want to assume. Actually got the idea because I noticed they both had the name Danvers. Apparently more of the DC/Marvel rivalry, where they tease each other by making references to each other's work.

Or the names could be a coincidence since there are surely more names first and last that get used between the two companies, or even in the same company (The last name for the original Dr. Fate is Kent same as the family that adopted Kal-El for example yet I really doubt that they're related in any fashion beyond the level all humans are). Scaling Supergirl/Linda Danvers/Matrix to Marvel I think she has an edge over Ms. Marvel just in her general design and range of powers, Binary though she'd have no real chance other than the traditional 'Hero fighting on the right side always wins' rule.

How about Mephisto vs. Loki?

No home dimension advantage.

Say on earth, like Wisconsin maybe.

Yosef

Yosef Wrote:
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> How about Mephisto vs. Loki?
>
> No home dimension advantage.
>
> Say on earth, like Wisconsin maybe.
>
> Yosef
On neutral ground thats a hard one to call, in physical combat i think mephisto would win, but i think this would be a battle of magic, and i guess with Odin being dead, loki would probably be the sorcerer supreme of the asgardians, so he might know of a magical way of binding or banishing an elder demon like mephisto.also i recall Mephisto once had Loki trapped in his dimension so im sure he has some kind of magic or plan to deal with him so that dosnt happen again.

Daikumanoken Wrote:
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> Actually you may be mistaken. Remember that issue
> of Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7 where the Thing
> fight The Champion of the Universe? Colossus never
> even makes it a round! He hasn't done much better
> since and the Thing has tussled with some big time
> foes and cosmic beings at that! Taken alone with
> no history I believe the match should go the way
> you think it should, but given the history of both
> and the abilites beyond mere strength, Ben is the
> stand out to win. Besides, when did mere strength
> determine a fight over experience?


Tyson vs Spinx...?

My match-up would be Juggernaught vs The Hulk.
They really couldn't do anything but pound on eathother, not really doing any damage to anything except wherever they were fighting...
I guess one could knock the other into orbit, but that would only call for a re-match after re-entry.

they have fought a few times in the past i believe the Hulk always won

I know they have, but either one winning is just silly.
I've read their stats, they really can't do much if anything to one another.

Elektra vs X23 in a pit full of jello....lol j/k about the jello, but i think this could be a great match up i think experence Elektra has it but then again X23 has proven to be a match for even wolverine, and the healing factor could be a big advantage

Marrow defeated Wolverine as well... proving that bad writing is everywhere.

Elektra has the sheer skill to win, but X23 has Adamantium claws and a frightening healing factor. I think it could go either way, honestly. All in all though, it's a moot point since we don't know how long that Skrull's been posing as Elektra.

Vrykolas2k Wrote:
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> Daikumanoken Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually you may be mistaken. Remember that
> issue
> > of Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7 where the Thing
> > fight The Champion of the Universe? Colossus
> never
> > even makes it a round! He hasn't done much
> better
> > since and the Thing has tussled with some big
> time
> > foes and cosmic beings at that! Taken alone
> with
> > no history I believe the match should go the
> way
> > you think it should, but given the history of
> both
> > and the abilites beyond mere strength, Ben is
> the
> > stand out to win. Besides, when did mere
> strength
> > determine a fight over experience?
>
>
> Tyson vs Spinx...?


Well, according to actual boxing [fighting period!] history, experience has far outclassed strength..Ali vs Liston, Ali vs Foreman, Hopkins vs Tarver, Holmes vs Cooney, Leonard vs Herns, Holyfield vs Tyson, De La Hoya vs Vargas, Leonard vs Hagler, Jones Jr vs Diaz, Holyfield vs Douglas, Foreman vs Moorer, Hopkins vs Trinidad, Mayweather vs Corales, Mayweather vs Gatti, Courture vs Ortiz, Couture vs Liddell I, Couture vs Sylvia, Couture vs Gonzaga, Silva vs Jackson, Wilson vs Alexio and on and on..........

And the little known response of Sphinx is that he took the dive, for the pay and to avoid getting hurt! Most of Tyson's opponents did?! Watch his fights! Most fighters accept this fact[of life], it's what you know, not how strong you are! Sometimes it's not the case, but that's cause everyone has an off day...not because it isn't true!

Just wanted to add a late bit of info. Previously someone posted a fight on Gladiator vs Hyperion vs Sentry....well I felt Gladiator would win hands down, but I was looking through my books and saw a fight between Gladiator and Hyperion. Hyperion was choked out! Flat out lost! It's in a Quasar series.... Go figure?! The BIG G went head to head with Supreme too, but they fought to a stalemate as G decided to play dead to prevent a ridiculously long fight that would only to satisfy ego!

As far as Juggy and Hulk, well I think of Juggy much differently than most just as I do with BIG G, and I give Hulk full credit to his orgins so add it all up and Hulk wins! Not gonna go into it unless asked. I give everyone full credit to their origins and evolution as long as it follows continuity, but the breaks in continuity create a void of relativism that just makes conversation pointless!

>Previously
> someone posted a fight on Gladiator vs Hyperion vs
> Sentry....well I felt Gladiator would win hands
> down, but I was looking through my books and saw a
> fight between Gladiator and Hyperion. Hyperion was
> choked out! Flat out lost! It's in a Quasar
> series.... Go figure?!

So you ended up being right about that in this case. Gladiator did beat Hyperion, and most agree that Hyperion would smoke the Sentry. Man, Gladiator choked out Hyperion! That must have been a killer fight between those two.

Hawkeye vs Punisher?

Very low key i know, both ranged, both don't mind killing, so split it into three then:

1) Fist fight

2) Ranged fight

3) Anything goes in a burning down building

The Last Duskblade Wrote:
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> >Previously
> > someone posted a fight on Gladiator vs Hyperion
> vs
> > Sentry....well I felt Gladiator would win hands
> > down, but I was looking through my books and saw
> a
> > fight between Gladiator and Hyperion. Hyperion
> was
> > choked out! Flat out lost! It's in a Quasar
> > series.... Go figure?!
>
> So you ended up being right about that in this
> case. Gladiator did beat Hyperion, and most agree
> that Hyperion would smoke the Sentry. Man,
> Gladiator choked out Hyperion! That must have
> been a killer fight between those two.


No Joke, it was a decent story as far has the reason he won. The fight was a little cheesey, but hey....it was a Quasar book!? It was more like what exactly ended up hapening to Gladiator when he fought Supreme. Well, the choke part, cause the fight was just too long and neither was actually winning over the other. Supreme is more of a hot head and Gladiator isn't. Sad that he is shown that way so that writers can justify their simple-minded reasons for having him lose to lesser characters. Ugh, maybe I should just let it go with talking about him. To me he's like Cap, except he never had the chance he deserved to be a real valuable character. Venom [Eddie Brock]is another one! Shame, it's a shame....

Punisher in all of-em! He's more tenacious and more skilled! He's an all around Batman without the hood and cape! Check out his mini-series that Mike Zeck and Steven Grant put out. I mean he went to prison and the inmates were still pissin in their pants that he was there! Please, Old Oliver never had it goin on like that! Even Daredevil noticed the man is a machine! His stamina and conditioning were amazing to him! It was like Van Helsing, when Dracula noticed his heart was steady as opposed to the frantic heart beats of lesser men!

That's what i thought as well, Punishers always been a favorite of mine.

How about Bullseye vs. Hawkeye?

Yosef

Yosef Wrote:
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> That's what i thought as well, Punishers always
> been a favorite of mine.
>
> How about Bullseye vs. Hawkeye?
>
> Yosef


Hey Yosef, you're twisted man! How you keep bringin up these tough fights?! I know that I picked Punisher and all, but I had to think about it. I mean, who would or should actually win. No disrespect to either character....like say Batman vs Carnage. It happened and it sucked! Carnage could never lose to Batman unless Batman found out his vulnerability to high frequency sonics. But instead like never before, the symbiote exposed his face so Batman could knock Kasady out. Ugh?!

But, I guess I would have to say Bullseye here, cause he never misses?! Well I guess he does, but hardly ever. And even if Hawkeye beats him from a distance, he is completely vulnerable hand-to-hand. Odds are not on Clint's side...a toughy for sure!

Yosef Wrote:
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> Hawkeye vs Punisher?
>
> Very low key i know, both ranged, both don't mind
> killing, so split it into three then:
>
> 1) Fist fight
>
> 2) Ranged fight
>
> 3) Anything goes in a burning down building


I think in a fist fight hawkeye would win, i think he is better trained than the Punisher, he has been sparring with the avengers and captain america for ever.I like that he is Ronin now and is shwoing his fighting skills more often,

in a ranged attack i say punisher. guns are better than a bow any day, i never did like characters like th green arrow or hawkeye using bows, imean if your that good of a marksman with a bow you would probably also be very good with a gun so why not use a gn instead. or if your gong to use a bow at least let it be some kind of cool magic bow

I really can't imagine Punisher losing to Hawkeye in a punch-it-up, not when Hawkeye's main means of combat is a ranged weapon and the majority of his combat activity is ranged not melee. I can see Hawkeye winning a fight of ranged combat though, as he's a specialist with that bow of his and Punisher is more a generalist and also contrary to some feelings a bow is just as deadly as a gun (and as we see in Secret Wars he had no problems putting an arrow into one of the Wrecking Crew after noting at close range in particular a shot from his bow is just as damaging as a bullet) even if the reload rate is much lower. As some point out it's not how much you throw out it's how accurate you are with what you do throw out. A well-placed arrow from Hawkeye will take someone out as easily as a bullet and has the benefit that it's a totally silent weapon (one would require some extremely sensitive hearing or a Danger Sense of some sort to even detect a bow-shot to try and react).

Morph vs. Slapstick

Madcap vs. Sabretooth

Madcap vs. Joker

im just the oposite i cant imagine the punisher beign able to beat hawkeye in a fist fight. as i stated Hawkeye has had much better training, Recently in the Avengers Clint was shown going toe to toe with Hand Nijas while in the latest issue of the War Journal, Frank was pretty much getting tooled by the hand and pretty much saying that his fighting skills were not up to fighting ninjas. Since becoming Ronin Clint has shown that he is a very gifted in hand to hand combat.
and while a arrow shot from a compound bow and deliever more force than a bullet, it is still by no means better than a gun. I know comic writers like to write silly stuff like that but haivng shot both in real life i would take gun over a bow any day and as far as stealth, guns can have siliencers put on them hell you can stick a potato or apple on the end of a gun and get at least one shot that wont make much noise (any kids on here please dont try this at home i come from a family of cops and have been able to experiment under trained supervision). Using a bow as your super power is about as lame as using a sword or machete.
Nightmask Wrote:
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> I really can't imagine Punisher losing to Hawkeye
> in a punch-it-up, not when Hawkeye's main means of
> combat is a ranged weapon and the majority of his
> combat activity is ranged not melee. I can see
> Hawkeye winning a fight of ranged combat though,
> as he's a specialist with that bow of his and
> Punisher is more a generalist and also contrary to
> some feelings a bow is just as deadly as a gun
> (and as we see in Secret Wars he had no problems
> putting an arrow into one of the Wrecking Crew
> after noting at close range in particular a shot
> from his bow is just as damaging as a bullet) even
> if the reload rate is much lower. As some point
> out it's not how much you throw out it's how
> accurate you are with what you do throw out. A
> well-placed arrow from Hawkeye will take someone
> out as easily as a bullet and has the benefit that
> it's a totally silent weapon (one would require
> some extremely sensitive hearing or a Danger Sense
> of some sort to even detect a bow-shot to try and
> react).

i would like to see a rematch between the black panther and the Silver Surfer, it bugs the hell out of me that the Panther was able to subdue the Surfer. the martial arts move he used to "over come" the surfers strenght advantage was lame and would have never worked. yes it might have worked if the panther had applied it to some one like Captain America to over come his strenght advantage, but some one as strong as the Surfer would have been able to over come the leverage advantage and even if he couldnt. he had his hand on the Panthers arm should have had the muscle in his hand to crush the panthers arm. As cool as the Panther is he should not be able to last 10 seconds with the Surfer.

Using a gun as a super-power isn't any more lame than the bow and Frank Castle's been regularly portrayed as an intensively trained combatant functioning at almost peak human physical capabilities in all categories. Just because some writers now are trying to make him out as more a wimp relative to Hawkeye doesn't negate the reality that Castle's been battling non-stop in far more combat situations than Hawkeye and a lot more intensively trained using all weapons in melee combat relative to Hawkeye. They may be trying to make him out to be a Batman for Marvel now with the ability to handle dozens of attackers at once but of the two Punisher's the one who's qualified for that not Hawkeye.

the punisher has mostly beat up street level thugs, Clint on the other hand has went hand to hand with alot more super powered induviduals kree military, ninjas and while he has always lost he has been able to give Captain America a run for his money on several occasions in pure hand to hand combat..Both the Punisher and CClint have been described as being near peak physical conditioning, so i think it comes down to training and the punisher just hasnt had the level of training the Clint has.
and IMO a gun is a much better weapon than a bow, knives sword or anything like that. the invention of the gun is why armies stopped using that stuff to begin with. although with all the high tech gear that seems to be readily avalible in the MU i find it hard to believe that the Punisher dont use more weapons like lasers and what not i mean even a lowley AIM or Hydra thug seems to have a blaster.

You seem to think that 'oh street level thugs are nothing and no kind of learning experience' given your wording on that and that's just not the case. Dealing with large numbers of them (who are generally not the retarded apes people like to think of them as) is a challenge to test anyone including Captain America and he's been taken down and captured by such low-level thugs many times. Again Clint hasn't anywhere near the Hand-to-Hand combat experience that Frank has and just because he's fought a few kree or other low-level superhumans isn't going to make him magically the better fighter just because his foes were somehow tougher. You take someone portrayed as engaged intensively in hand-to-hand combat and regularly exploiting everything in a fight to win and someone who's mainly portrayed as taking out his opponents with a ranged weapon (bow OR gun) and put them against each other in melee combat and the guy with the hand-to-hand combat experience is going to win unless he's having a very bad day. Clint may be tough and courageous but Frank's given Spider-man trouble and has his own share of experiences with superhumans that has forced him to adapt to such as well.

low level super beings!? Hawkweye single handedly defeated the Collector he has also defeated Deathbird. and Viper. He beat the Thunderbolts He has battle demons including Mephisto gave Captain America a run for his money. His combat training is still far better than Franks. as stated before his hand to hand was looking much better agaisnt Hand Ninjas than Franks was. Im not dissing street thugs but i think Hawkeye has consistantly fought and beaten a higher level of opponents. not to mention he has beaten his fair share of street thugs as well.Not to mention i think the average Kree soldier would be better trained than a street thug or a vietnam milityary person. In pure hand to hand combat id say Clint Barton beats Frank Castle 9 times out of 10

Hawkeye has no more chance of really beating the Collector in combat than he does the Silver Surfer or the Watcher, any upset victories he has are purely writers ignoring the differences and just wanting him to win a fight he can't. Hawkeye simply does not have the combat training or experience Punisher does, has not fought through Vietnam and the ugliest of things a human can do to another and if a writer wants to show Punisher having a bad day against some Hand ninja and Hawkeye having a good day those exceptions aren't what makes things it's the body of their experiences. Punisher wades through small armies of thugs and criminals who're often well trained in combat and often doesn't break out in a sweat even whereas Hawkeye's rarely battling groups and if he does he's doing it at a distance firing net and glue arrows to restrain them because he can't handle them in a straight-up fight. Even game-wise Castle's been shown at Incredible to Amazing Fighting and Clint at Best only Good to Excellent because he is specialized in a ranged weapon and avoids hand to hand.

I love discussions about the lower level characters, i.e. Punisher, Hawkeye, Bullseye, etc.

Here's another heavyweight match-up: Hulk v. Count Nefaria. The Count has some pretty strange power stunts, so how does this go?

Clint has easily shown In fighting ability since his rebirth and taking the Ronin identity and you say he dont have the combat training he was trained by Captain America and recieved Shield training from his wife not to mention he trained with Avengers such as Thor and Hercules, that is far better training than US special forces get. When did the punisher ever fight in the middle of the the Kree Skrull or Shiar armies hawkeye has fought and done well against them all and they are much more dangerous than the vienam army. and its not the number of fights you have its the quality of opponents yo uhave faced and Clint has faced and beaten a much higher level of opponents than the Punisher could ever dream of.
Look at real life fighters Travis Fulton and Ben Rothwell when they last fought it was Travis fultons 244th fight and it was Ben Rothwells 32 fight now by your logic travis should have tooled Ben but becasue Ben had fought a higher quality of opponents and trains with a better fight camp he won in the second round by locking on a kimura and getting Travis to submit. Years ago when the punisher first broke onto the scean he might have beaten Clint, but not today Clint has gained far to much training threw much better sources than the Punisher