Training by Captain America isn't some magic bullet that makes anyone just as capable as he is at winning against impossible odds. He has no magical ability to instill Incredible or Amazing Fighting rank into anyone and Clint just has not had the starting potential or training and experience to reach that level. Punisher functions in much the same fashion as Batman does in the DC universe, a human trained to the peak in everything in order to handle anything thrown at him, Hawkeye doesn't have that. His restoration to life doesn't carry any magical power-ups either, seems more like some writer or editor decided he was just silly running around fighting with a bow and wanted to rewrite him and just stuff him with a range of stuff he hasn't the background for just to 'update' him and make him a battle monster. Not the first time Marvel's tossed aside continuity in recent years and written characters vastly different just because they felt like it (Spider-man, Speedball, Hepzibah, Machine Man, etc.).

The downplaying of Punisher's Vietnam experiences is somewhat troubling as well, that was a ruthless and no-rules conflict that only the toughest or luckiest survived and Punisher isn't one of the lucky ones. You're also assuming a lot of training that's not in evidence for Hawkeye and never has been from his time with the Avengers. Sure Captain America did his best to have group training sessions and Hawkeye had similar during his stint running the West Coast Avengers but he was working his bow talent more than his melee skills. Being an instant master in these areas doesn't fit with Hawkeye's history and Punisher is most certainly a well-experienced master in contrast and only someone Captain America's level could challenge him so easily and Hawkeye isn't even close.

I have to say, despite liking Hawkeye a bit, and generally disliking Castle on account of the borderline sociopath he's often depicted as, that I can only see Clint *maybe* having a chance if he keeps his distance and snipes. Even then, it'd be extremely tough for Clint, since Frank's more than used to dealing with sniper tactics, and given his Special Forces training is likely to be well versed in even coping with bow snipers, since they're not uncommon for even modern jungle warfare. If the fight takes place over distance, in an alien environment Clint's used to and that Frank's never experienced and has no analogue for, that improves Clint's odds and gives him a fighting chance, though I'd still wager on Castle for the win. In my opinion, Castle is more skilled and a far fiercer and more vicious opponent than Hawkeye. Frank's the kind of guy who'd level a building to nail a sniper if he thought it tactically useful, and he usually carries grenades with him, so he's likely equipped for serious carnage -- mentally as well as in terms of armament.

Hawkeye may be well trained, but he doesn't have the same type of training Frank's had. Only another soldier like Cap, who himself served in nasty situations and missions, has an idea how somebody like Castle thinks.

As for melee? I'm sorry, but, IMO, Clint's toast. Frank'll bust him up bad. Frank's meaner and far more acclimated to nasty close-up combat.

Just thought of something better than Madcap vs. Sabretooth.

Madcap vs. Deadpool.

im not downplaying the vietnam war, im just saying it vietnam soldiers dont compare to Kree or Skrull soldiers, vietnam soilders fought in a jungle in a small country . Kree and Skrulls have fought battles that involved entire planets. they have seen things that the average vietnam soldier couldnt comprehend.when they both started out hawkeye may not have been on the same level as the punisher, but to say hawkeye dosnt have the background to devolope past is absurd. You compair the Punisher to Batman but Batman got to be where he is becasue he trained with the best in the world, the Punisher has not trained with the best his world has to offer he trained with the US military, and became a top soldier. hakeye is more in line with batman becasue he has trained with the best in the world.Besides Captain America, you have the Black Panter, Wolverine, Spiderman,Ecco, Luke Cage, Thor, Hercules, Moon Knight,Black Widow,Mantis,Beast, Moon Dragon,Tigra,US Agent, Namor,Hellcat, and all the other Avengers. Who has the Punisher trained with that is on that level to give him that peak level of human fighting like Batman. Hawkeye has been described by several writers to be at peak level of human abilities. to be an archer at the level that he is he would have to have "peak level relflexes" those reflexes could easily convert to figting skills with proper training, and i think i have more than proved that he does have the background to recieve such training. And lets not forget Clint was the first choice to be Captain America after Steves death. Im not taking anything away from the Punisher, he might have been in more scraps than Clint, but he does not have the training, and as a martial artist, and licienced boxing and MMA judge and referee i see guys all the time who have a lot of fights get beat by by guys who dont have the fight experience but have recieved much better training. And i do not see how you can think the Punisher has recieved better training than Hawkeye.
Clint has evolved so far past his Hawkeye days if anything he was the victom of writers fogetting that he was an acrobate before he was a bow master and just making him a generic robin hood, and forgetiing his training as a hand to hand fighter.

The Punisher has the unfortunate downfall of people overlooking his traiing as well. Frank hasbeen trained as a ninja master/martial artist. He has previous experience with Marine Long Range Recon Patrol. It has been documented in several of his comics that he trains on taking hits, beating,falls, etc. I am not saying that Clint is not a good fighter but in a no holds barred fight Frank has the edge. I can see your point about Clint but based on what I have seen from the Frank is that simply because Captain is a higher profile person does not mean that Frank has not recieved training that might be equivalent, plus Frank's fighting style is the sum total of his life experience blended together. He is almost always training, Clint on the other hand maybe recently has been doing this but it was not something that he was known for with the exception of bow practice. It has been my experience as a martial artist and someone who currently works in law enforcement that frequent training in many different forms of fighting will beat someone who was trained by a uber-fighter. The definitive edge that Frank has over Clint is that Frank is like Bucky or Nick Fury, by this I mean that this is who he is and not something that he does. This however is just my opinion.

besides his military training Punisher is trained in Jujutsu and thats the japanesse form witch is very inferior and nothing like the brazillian form of Jujutsu that the Gracies developed and made popular.And to my knowledge the only marvel character that uses gracie jujutsu is the new Tarantula from the Heros for Hire. and while he does train he normally trains alone and thats not the same thing as training with others. and in recent years Clint has been shown to be very diligent in his training. Even in the yearly years he seemed to train more in his acrobat skills than his bow.
I still say him regularlly training with world class training partners and the skills he has shown in hand to hand since his rebirth and the decline in ability that has been shown in the Punisher, remember he has never been reconned and is portrayed as a man in his 50s i think Clint takes it, but i guess im not going to change anybodys minds and nobody is going to change mine so i guess all we can do is hope that someday they throw down in a comic so we can get an answer.

Kree and Skrull soldiers fight in the same kind of terrain everyone else does, save for the option of battles in outer space. The jungles of Vietnam would be as much a problem for them as one of their jungles would be for someone from earth without the experience. Save for special circumstances the terrain features you find on Earth exist on pretty much every other planet in the Marvel Universe and aren't anything special or exclusive to Earth alone. Other than evolving on a world that relative to earth gives Kree a few extra ranks in Strength and Endurance they aren't that special and most Kree just aren't that creative or adaptable anyway due to their regimented society.

Again you're over-emphasizing Clint's experience, he's not intensively trained by any of those you've listed and much of his training against them has involved use of his bow in combat against them and not hand-to-hand. Plus many of them aren't better than Remarkable Fighting and many are Excellent Rank with a range of Martial Arts talents to compensate. Going by your argument many villains ought to be running at Amazing Fighting because they've fought (and effectively trained against) all of those and at least as often as Clint has if not moreso which just isn't the case. Actual live combat is the best source of experience and Frank has that all over Clint under a range of almost non-stop conflict situations. Whatever intensive training Hawkeye might be doing now it's a pale shadow compared to what Punisher has lived and devoted his existence to, however much you like Hawkeye he just doesn't rate at Punisher's level of combat experience or training.

I really wish people didn't toss out the 'this brand of martial art is superior to all others so if X knows it it must make him the best', expecially when they do that with a 'non-oriental combat training is a wimp compared to oriental martial arts'. Everything has strengths and weaknesses and Frank's got a lot more training to him than just the skills you list for him. Frank's also had a bit of a rejuvenation after his own death and rebirth when he was briefly an angelic hit man (not so laughable when you consider Wolverine's now shown to be immortal because he battles an Archangel to return to life whenever he's killed) so his age isn't that much of a factor. If you had something that actually demonstrated Hawkeye was worthy of an Incredible or Amazing Fighting rank I'd consider it but you really aren't presenting any information that validates Hawkeye as being a world-class fighter like Captain America or the Punisher, not even a 'well it's a gift from Scarlet Witch after House of M to make amends for killing him' deux ex machina.

well im done debaing about hawkeye and the punisher neither of us are going to budge on our stance so its pointless, but but as far as the Kree and the Skrulls what i was refering to is the kinds of threats they have faced. for the most part the vietnam soldier has only faced humans local jungle life and maybe a handful of super humans while kree and skrull soldiers would have faced sll kinds alien threats with their more advanced tech im sure they have bio weapons and other weapons of mass destruction far greater than anything seen in Nam. they have fought with the likes of the brood and the bandoon. where a couple million slodiers and civilians died in Nam people have died by the billions in the Kree/Skull War
In the Annihilation wave i recall reading that the death toll was in the upper billions, lower trillions. Im sure the average kree or Skrull soldier has seen and done things that the average vietnam vet soil his pants if he seen

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really wish people didn't toss out the 'this
> brand of martial art is superior to all others so
> if X knows it it must make him the best',
> expecially when they do that with a 'non-oriental
> combat training is a wimp compared to oriental
> martial arts'. Everything has strengths and
> weaknesses and Frank's got a lot more training to
> him than just the skills you list for him.
> Frank's also had a bit of a rejuvenation after his
> own death and rebirth when he was briefly an
> angelic hit man (not so laughable when you
> consider Wolverine's now shown to be immortal
> because he battles an Archangel to return to life
> whenever he's killed) so his age isn't that much
> of a factor. If you had something that actually
> demonstrated Hawkeye was worthy of an Incredible
> or Amazing Fighting rank I'd consider it but you
> really aren't presenting any information that
> validates Hawkeye as being a world-class fighter
> like Captain America or the Punisher, not even a
> 'well it's a gift from Scarlet Witch after House
> of M to make amends for killing him' deux ex
> machina.

I dont know anything about your personal back ground but i has some one who has trained in mixed martial arts and is a ring/cageside judge and referee in both boxing and MMA i can tell you that styles do make matches and some martial arts are more effective than others. Karate and TKD for example is not very good agaisnt wrestling, sambo or judo. and to say that it dosnt make a difference shows a very uneducated view point about martial arts.Hollywood liked to portray martial arts like Kung Fu as the end all be all of martial arts but the truth of the matter, is Kung Fu is about the most worthless martial art to use in a fight. Sumo is another one that is absolutly worthless in a real fight. Look at the early UFCs back then most fighters just trained in one martial art and there were no weight classes a little guy by the name of Royce Gracie schooled Karate masters, boxers, and wrestlers left and right with his BJJ only to years later get schooled by Matt Hughes becasue he had not evolved and become a true mixed martial artist and Matt was a more evolved fighter than Royce., and now Matt Hughes has been beaten badly in his last 2 fights becasue martial arts has again evolved and his style of fighting is just not as effective agaisnt the young guys who are comming up.

I’m a Cable Fan…..

Yoked like a Fuggen Truck and enough high tech weapons to make a NAVY SEAL envious….

Cable -=VS=- Wolverine

Cable -=VS=- Bat-Man

Cable -=VS=- Silver Samurai

Cable -=VS=- Punisher

Cable -=VS=- Bullseye

Cable -=VS=- Spider-Man

Cable -=VS=- Dare Devil

Cable -=VS=- Cap’n America

Cable -=VS=- Venom

That baby looks terribly un-protected.

While I agree with your statements about mixed martial arts, I have never seen Clint trained in a specific martial art like for example BJJ. There are a few fighters in the Marvel universe that I would consider in the class that you are talking about like Captain America, the Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc. I liken Frank to be similar to Randy Coutre(who is in his mid-40's). I agree that we will not change each others mind but I enjoy debating the the subject with others such as yourself. As always I remain Weapon T!

Okay, we're a little OT here, but I've got to weigh in on this in regards to mma matches and so on:

Styles make matches in MMA as in every combat sport. A beats B, B beats C, but maybe C turns around a beats A. There's no transitive property in fighting, which is what makes it exciting.

Martial arts all have techniques that can work in MMA; it depends on how you train in them. When people say karate doesn't work in mma, they may be saying (hopefully) that "pure" karate doesn't work in MMA, or pure tkd. Nowadays, pure muay thai, pure graciejj, pure submission grappling or pure wrestling don't work either. It doesn't mean fighters with those pure skills couldn't beat someone, but they won't excel at the high levels. Karate and tkd, for example, can be good against grappling styles provided the practitioner knows enough grappling to defend it, and can keep the fight in their arena.

Kung fu being worthless is something Cung Le might have something to say about. We can ask Frank Shamrock about how "worthless" san shou and fast wrestling were against him.

Sumo is something that, while I'm a fan of, I am not knowledgeable about. A pure sumo stylists would do as well as any pure stylist named above, but since I'm largely ignorant about Sumo technique, I'm not going to say there's nothing there for an MMA fighter to use.

Royce schooled some fighters who were pure karate, wrestling or boxing guys. However, if you look in modern MMA camps, what coaches are in every (and I mean EVERY) modern MMA camp? A boxing coach, a wrestling coach. The idea that boxing and wrestling have nothing to offer the MMA fighter is completely and totally wrong. They, like all the other pure styles, had to be adapted to MMA, but then it was clear they had a lot to offer.

Karate is starting to go the same way. (Ask Tito Ortiz how "useless" karate is in a real fight; he really beat up Machida, didn't he?) People said the same thing about Judo not to long ago, then Yoshida, Parisyan, and Fedor started (and continue) to use judo techniques to school their opponents.

It's ignorant and short sighted to claim any martial art is "worthless" for a real fight. Pure styles of any kind don't do well in MMA. Many many styles have something to offer MMA provided they are adapted.

Matt Hughes didn't lose because MMA style evolved beyond him. If that were true, wrestling, explosive athleticism and ground and pound would no longer be effective in MMA, a patently stupid claim to make. He lost because Alves' particular mix of styles was better on that night, and he was better on that night, than Hughes.

No one is good at everything; MMA athletes specialize, as do every kind of athlete. Some are good at wrestling and boxing, some at muay thai and jujitsu, others at some other hybrid of variants. Doesn't make any of them worse or better.

Personally, I have some experience in amateur MMA (pancrase-style), am ranked in judo, was a former amateur boxer and wrestled in h.s. I am not now nor would I ever claim to be a bad-ass or tough guy (there are a lot tougher out there), but to the extent someone might feel personal experience validates an opinion, I have the background to at least back up my opinion.

Sorry to go further OT. I love this thread.

As an aside, much of the debate of Hawkeye v. Punisher may be based on a fundamental weakness behind MMURG's use of the "Fighting" stat, and the fact that it goes into the Health score.

I was refering to TMA vs MMA and Chung Le has an extinsive wrestling back ground not to mention he is a Sanshou master and not a kung fu fighter. Sanshou has roots in Kung fu but is not the same think iKung fu actually translates into "the soft art" and frank is way past his prime. Lyoto uses a karate style but he is also a blackbelt in BJJ and crosstrains in wrestling and judo. As far as Matt Hughes goes him and Robbie Lawler has a school in Granite City IL thats about an hour from my house, i have met both and and contrary to what people say matt is not the ass everyone makes him out to be. He is also the first to admit that the sport has passed his generation by and he has to work extra hard to compete with the newer guys comming up what i mean by that is Matt started out a pure wrestler when he came into MMA he had to unlearn alot of wrestling moves becasue they dont work in MMA and leave you vunerable to submissions or getting Knocked out by a stand up artist. Same as a boxer has to unlearn the traditional boxing stance becasue it leaves you vunerable to leg kicks and takedowns. Same with pure Judo guys who cross train or pure anything. well now that MMA has gotten popular schools are poping up that train MMA as a whole. Like when i trained i was never a high school wrestler i never took TKD or Karate and i have never taken BJJ, but instead what i trained was a hybrid of all fighting arts. Classes now take what works from each fighting style and throws out what dosnt. Myself i would get tooled in a Karate Tournamat like what was on the Karate Kid, but put me in with karate black belt in a mma match and the odds shift in my favor. Matt Hughes beat the crap out of Royce gracie in a MMA fight but if they fought in a BJJ only fight i think Royce would have the edge and win.Guys like Alves and GSp they are the new generation of fighters comming up they got to start training a better style of MMA at a younger age its getting rarer and rarer that you have a pure wrestler guy trying to learn striking and submsiion, now its guys that started out learning a balanced system. Sorry for my MMA rant, but one of the things i do to help the sport of MMA grow is to try and help educate the casual fan into learning more about real martial arts and break the stereo type of martial arts that hollywood created. and sometime i get caught up in it a little to much. And i know my spelling is probably worse than usual(it never is good) but i have spent several hours helping the lower part of my town evacuate and helped with building a makeshift damn to try and stop the Mississippi who has decided to she wants to flood again. We are expecting water levels to be as bad as the great flood of 93
civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay, we're a little OT here, but I've got to
> weigh in on this in regards to mma matches and so
> on:
>
> Styles make matches in MMA as in every combat
> sport. A beats B, B beats C, but maybe C turns
> around a beats A. There's no transitive property
> in fighting, which is what makes it exciting.
>
> Martial arts all have techniques that can work in
> MMA; it depends on how you train in them. When
> people say karate doesn't work in mma, they may be
> saying (hopefully) that "pure" karate doesn't work
> in MMA, or pure tkd. Nowadays, pure muay thai,
> pure graciejj, pure submission grappling or pure
> wrestling don't work either. It doesn't mean
> fighters with those pure skills couldn't beat
> someone, but they won't excel at the high levels.
> Karate and tkd, for example, can be good against
> grappling styles provided the practitioner knows
> enough grappling to defend it, and can keep the
> fight in their arena.
>
> Kung fu being worthless is something Cung Le might
> have something to say about. We can ask Frank
> Shamrock about how "worthless" san shou and fast
> wrestling were against him.
>
> Sumo is something that, while I'm a fan of, I am
> not knowledgeable about. A pure sumo stylists
> would do as well as any pure stylist named above,
> but since I'm largely ignorant about Sumo
> technique, I'm not going to say there's nothing
> there for an MMA fighter to use.
>
> Royce schooled some fighters who were pure karate,
> wrestling or boxing guys. However, if you look in
> modern MMA camps, what coaches are in every (and I
> mean EVERY) modern MMA camp? A boxing coach, a
> wrestling coach. The idea that boxing and
> wrestling have nothing to offer the MMA fighter is
> completely and totally wrong. They, like all the
> other pure styles, had to be adapted to MMA, but
> then it was clear they had a lot to offer.
>
> Karate is starting to go the same way. (Ask Tito
> Ortiz how "useless" karate is in a real fight; he
> really beat up Machida, didn't he?) People said
> the same thing about Judo not to long ago, then
> Yoshida, Parisyan, and Fedor started (and
> continue) to use judo techniques to school their
> opponents.
>
> It's ignorant and short sighted to claim any
> martial art is "worthless" for a real fight. Pure
> styles of any kind don't do well in MMA. Many many
> styles have something to offer MMA provided they
> are adapted.
>
> Matt Hughes didn't lose because MMA style evolved
> beyond him. If that were true, wrestling,
> explosive athleticism and ground and pound would
> no longer be effective in MMA, a patently stupid
> claim to make. He lost because Alves' particular
> mix of styles was better on that night, and he was
> better on that night, than Hughes.
>
> No one is good at everything; MMA athletes
> specialize, as do every kind of athlete. Some are
> good at wrestling and boxing, some at muay thai
> and jujitsu, others at some other hybrid of
> variants. Doesn't make any of them worse or
> better.
>
> Personally, I have some experience in amateur MMA
> (pancrase-style), am ranked in judo, was a former
> amateur boxer and wrestled in h.s. I am not now
> nor would I ever claim to be a bad-ass or tough
> guy (there are a lot tougher out there), but to
> the extent someone might feel personal experience
> validates an opinion, I have the background to at
> least back up my opinion.
>
> Sorry to go further OT. I love this thread.
>
> As an aside, much of the debate of Hawkeye v.
> Punisher may be based on a fundamental weakness
> behind MMURG's use of the "Fighting" stat, and the
> fact that it goes into the Health score.

Courtesy Bump...

No response on the Cable inquiry……

Maybe some one can explain the ordeal about the Infant Child in Cable’s harness…. I dunno… But I think the Baby is Psychic or has the mind of an Adult…..

I dunno, but that Baby is not as fragile as it seems…

Maybe Cable uses the Child like a ‘Hot-Spot’….. Like exposing his chin and saying

“Hit me as hard as you can…. Gimme Everything you got buddy”





But now I gotta respond to the “Fighting” thing between Punisher and Hawk-Eye….

Just looking at the ‘Numbers’ and equipment between Punisher and Hawkeye…..

Hawkeye          | Punisher        | Wolverine       | Cap'n America   | Skrullian       |
                 |                 |                 |                 |                 |
F: EX:20         | F: IN:40        | F: IN:40        | F: AM:50        | F: EX:20        |
A: RM:30         | A: RM:30        | A: RM:30        | A: IN:40        | A: GD:10        |
S: GD:10         | S: EX:20        | S: GD:10        | S: EX:25        | S: GD:10        |
E: EX:20         | E: RM:30        | E: RM:30        | E: RM:35        | E: EX:20        |
R: TY:06         | R: EX:20        | R: TY:06        | R: EX:20        | R: EX:20        |
I: RM:30         | I: IN:40        | I: MN:75        | I: IN:40        | I: GD:10        |
P: GD:10         | P: IN:40        | P: IN:40        | P: AM:50        | P: TY:06        |
                 |                 |                 |                 |                 |
HP: 80 / 80      | HP: 120 / 120   | HP: 110 / 110   | HP: 150 / 150   | HP: 60 / 60     |
KP: 46 / 46      | KP: 100 / 100   | KP: 121 / 121   | KP: 110 / 100   | KP: 36 / 36     |

I have to say Punisher would ‘ROCK’ Hawkeye’s AZZ then move on to beat the living snot out of an average Skrullian…..


Fighting Styles and Disciplines are irrelevant and designed for a specific Arena or Environment of rules…

It’s why Judo, Jujitsu, Kick-Boxing, and Wresting styles dominate the Octagon…..

Put these Styles in a Traditional “Boxing Ring” and these Styles would get trumped….

Same thing with Traditional Gung-Fu / Kung-Fu / Wu-Shu / TKD / Karate / Ninjitsu … These styles are more designed for “Street Wise” Self Defense with moderate Melee weaponry… Where you also have the element of surprise in an uncontrolled ‘Environment’




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2008 04:12PM by TankerAce.

From what I've read the child is the first mutant born after M Day and everyone's fighting to gain possession of it for various dark or noble ends depending on the individual or group. Cable's taken up safeguarding it for the good of the future (since they have to keep retconning his history and why he's back as new stories rewrite his future history and therefore his motivations for returning to the present time period).

Okay, last OT foray, I promise.

I agree about TMA v. MMA, but the problem with TMA is not the techniques but the training. You see the same techniques (punches, kicks, throws, chokes & submissions) in TMA as ever appear in MMA, with some exceptions, but the problem is that most TMA don't train "all-in" to challenge their techniques.

San Shou and Jiao Di (sp?) are very closely related. Cung Le does not throw like a wrestler, particularly when he blocks and counters with throws; he throws like a JD fighter, which is what he is. I'm not denying that his wrestling comes in handy in MMA, but he doesn't throw like a wrestler (and I am a former wrestler).

Lyoto on his feet, striking-wise, fights exactly like a karate fighter. Karate, unlike Muay Thai (where much of the training is meant to "toughen up" your body so you can check or even take a strike and counter) relies a great deal on footwork to stay out of range until you counter (I'm speaking of Shotokan, and to a letter extent Kyokushin, Ashihari & Enshin). His BJJ blackbelt wasn't what he used to beat Tito on their feet.

I've met Matt Hughes, he seems a lot nicer in person than he seems on screen, for some reason. Royce Gracie (whom I've also met) is the same way, very charming in person, but seems a little d#ckish on television.

I don't think that there's been a quantum shift in MMA technique since Matt's prime (which, if it passed, did so within the last two or three fights). Matt himself may be past his prime, but a young Matt Hughes coming up would still be a threat. He always needed more work on stand-up and submission, but I don't agree at all that the styles have changed that much simply because Alves beat him. Alves, style-wise, was a tough fight for Matt, and age probably was a factor.

What you say about pure wrestling, pure boxing, etc. is all true, and restates what I already said. Pure stylists don't work in MMA unless they adapt their style to the rules of MMA. Of course, most MMA fighters, even top ones, if they competed in a different format, would have a problem (unless they had trained in that format, i.e. Jens Pulver in boxing, etc). That's obvious, I think everyone could intuit that.

Anderson Silva, a great MMA fighter, would almost certainly lose to Roy Jones Jr in boxing (which we won't ever see, more's the pity). Jones would get smashed in the ufc.

Your background may have biased you against all TMA simply because some pure TMA styles didn't succeed in MMA. Remember that the early ufc had part-time martial artists in it (Royce and Ken were probably of the few full-timers in there). Nowadays MMA is the place for the professional athlete; amateurs don't cut it in there any more. I don't have any problem with a balanced approach, it works in MMA, but even in MMA no on is equally good at everything. They have things they're good at and add on what they need to supplement. That will be true whether a fighter starts in a TMA or in MMA from the beginning. TMA techniques, when adapted into MMA, have helped the evolution of MMA as much as the so-called "new" MMA guys. Now we see spinning backfists, hammer fists, spinning back kicks, and so on, techniques that originated in TMA. As guys get into it earlier, we'll see more techniques from TMA creep in, once they're tested for MMA.

Thanks for your post, which I enjoyed reading. I don't disagree with you about the "hollywoodization" of the martial arts; movies and television are fine as long as people don't take them seriously. I think the rise of MMA has diminished the rise of the shlock-fest fakirs out there (chi power and all that nonsense), but don't discard the baby with the bathwater. Yes, TMA has been rife with fraud and shlock, but there've been (and will continue to be) Octagon-worthy techniques coming from TMA.

Nowadays, too, I'm sorry to say MMA has it's share of fakes and frauds, too.

All that aside, though, I think Punisher, in a straight-up MMA match, no weapons, takes Hawkeye out without too much trouble. Their respective fighting ranks (Am to Ex, I think) are, I believe, accurate measures of their respective skills in hand-to-hand. In a firefight, Punisher has the edge because, lets face it, guns are generally better than bows, even the new high-tech compound bows we have nowadays, both in rate of fire, accuracy, and damage. Hawkeye could ge a lucky shot, but I'd still bet on Punisher.

In a fist fight Castle wins hands down. His hand to hand experience, plus his mindset when it comes to fighting gives him a serious edge. In an all out battle of all avaiable skills and weapons the fight is a lot closer.

Both have long range weapons, and Clint's trick arrows can equal Castle's ordinance. Both are skilled with these weapons, but Clint is the better marksman. However he cant match Frank's rate of fire. Both have proven themselves as tacticians, but I expect the Punnisher to win in the end. He will use warfare tactics and lay boobytraps as well as straight fighting. I think his great experince and flexibility in combat will win out in the long run in what would be an intense fight.

Two heavyweight match-ups I'd like to see your respective takes on:

Superman (any era) vs. Dr. Manhattan (Watchmen)

Count Nefaria vs. Hulk (Green Scar form)

Which version of Nefaria? Original release or Ionic Man version? Original Nefaria vs Hulk would be close, although I think Hulk would win both due to his rage increase and because he's a far more experienced fighter than Nefaria who relied on others before his empowerment. I think they (and I rarely say this) underpowered him somewhat in the write-ups for him with his Strength at Unearthly, I think it was Shift X given the power templates he had grafted onto him before the ionic energies he was infused with from Goliath/Atlas took over and dominated everything else about him. For Nefaria to win he'd have to get lucky and manage a serious surprise strike on the Hulk if not several in rapid succession.

Oooh I have one.

Taskmaster vs Deathstroke.

Taskmaster would probably squeak by courtesy of his ability to predict an opponent's moves after he's studied them, and he would have surely included someone like Deathstroke in his study list if they were existing in the same world. If they met up due to some cross-dimensional caper and were in conflict I think it would be harder to predict who'd win but given they're both pretty much amoral and ruthless it'd be closer to a draw as they beat each other within their last few Health before leaving to lick their wounds (Taskmaster in particular if he finds no profit in something will just leave it as he sees nothing wrong with abandoning a fight).

Taskmaster.

Also, it would be cool if everyone could remember to put the title of the match-up in the subject line of their post. It just makes it nicer for new people who are looking for battles that have already been done. Thanks, to Nightmask for accidentally reminding me of that.

I think Deathstroke, unlike Taskmaster, had superhuman strength and reflexes; I'd actually back him to win.

I was speaking of the original Nefaria; I'm not up on his "ionic" days. I agree that his strength is probably Shift-X (or Unearthly (124)) simply because he was giving Thor all he could handle, even though he had the fighting skills of a mafia don (which is to say, little to none), which meant his raw power was staggering. I'm not so sure Hulk would put him down so quickly, if at all. He's got some energy discharge powers that are very high (energy is something Hulk's resistence to is far less than to physical damage) and he can fly. In power terms, he outclasses a calm (or irritated) Hulk. If he can give Thor a hard time, I'm not so sure Hulk's fighting skills (which are less than Thor's, wherever you put Thor's base Fighting skill, his skills with Mjolnir rock) would enable him a victory. I'm leaning towards Nefaria in this one.

Oh, and the other heavyweight match-up, I'd say Manhattan beats Superman rather easily.

Actually Nefaria can't fly, his appearance was much like a 1950's Superman, so he had leaping ability to rival the Hulk and super-speed/running thanks to what he copied at augmented levels from Whirlwind on top of his laser vision and superhuman strength and durability. He only got that after they changed him to be a purely ionic being like Wonder Man or Goliath and decided to make flight part of the package. Still while he's statted as being at his base stronger and more durable than the Hulk the damage he inflicts is low enough that the Hulk has time to get enraged enough to put the beat-down onto Nefaria in the end.

As far as the other contest goes I've no knowledge of the Watchmen character to do a reasonable comparison.

Dr Archeville Wrote:
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> Morph vs. Slapstick

Not familiar enough with Slapstick to say.

> Madcap vs. Sabretooth

This would be a long, long, fight. But in the end I would give it to Sabertooth.

> Madcap vs. Joker

Madcap!

dacat75 Wrote:
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> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I really wish people didn't toss out the 'this
> > brand of martial art is superior to all others
> so
> > if X knows it it must make him the best',
> > expecially when they do that with a
> 'non-oriental
> > combat training is a wimp compared to oriental
> > martial arts'. Everything has strengths and
> > weaknesses and Frank's got a lot more training
> to
> > him than just the skills you list for him.
> > Frank's also had a bit of a rejuvenation after
> his
> > own death and rebirth when he was briefly an
> > angelic hit man (not so laughable when you
> > consider Wolverine's now shown to be immortal
> > because he battles an Archangel to return to
> life
> > whenever he's killed) so his age isn't that
> much
> > of a factor. If you had something that
> actually
> > demonstrated Hawkeye was worthy of an
> Incredible
> > or Amazing Fighting rank I'd consider it but
> you
> > really aren't presenting any information that
> > validates Hawkeye as being a world-class
> fighter
> > like Captain America or the Punisher, not even
> a
> > 'well it's a gift from Scarlet Witch after
> House
> > of M to make amends for killing him' deux ex
> > machina.
>
> I dont know anything about your personal back
> ground but i has some one who has trained in mixed
> martial arts and is a ring/cageside judge and
> referee in both boxing and MMA i can tell you that
> styles do make matches and some martial arts are
> more effective than others. Karate and TKD for
> example is not very good agaisnt wrestling, sambo
> or judo. and to say that it dosnt make a
> difference shows a very uneducated view point
> about martial arts.Hollywood liked to portray
> martial arts like Kung Fu as the end all be all of
> martial arts but the truth of the matter, is Kung
> Fu is about the most worthless martial art to use
> in a fight. Sumo is another one that is absolutly
> worthless in a real fight. Look at the early UFCs
> back then most fighters just trained in one
> martial art and there were no weight classes a
> little guy by the name of Royce Gracie schooled
> Karate masters, boxers, and wrestlers left and
> right with his BJJ only to years later get
> schooled by Matt Hughes becasue he had not evolved
> and become a true mixed martial artist and Matt
> was a more evolved fighter than Royce., and now
> Matt Hughes has been beaten badly in his last 2
> fights becasue martial arts has again evolved and
> his style of fighting is just not as effective
> agaisnt the young guys who are comming up.

Ok, I am just sick and I have to say something! Dude I read your posts all the time, but this stuff you got here is just blasphemy! I don't like personal attacks, but you have made claims here that are just plain FALSE!

1) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu DOES NOT EXIST! THE GRACIES WERE TAUGHT BY A JAPANESE MASTER! ROYCE'S GRAND FATHER BEGGED HIM TO TAKE HIM IN AS A STUDENT AND HE WAS TAUGHT UNDER "ONE" CONDITION, HE WAS TO KEEP IT IN HIS FAMILY, NOT TO MAKE A PROFIT WITH IT! THAT LOW CLASS MAN IGNORED HIS PROMISE AND TODAY THE GRACIES DON'T EVEN ADMIT THIS FACT OPENLY! THEY ARE NOTHING, BUT A DISGRACE TO MARTIAL ARTS, IF YOU CARE ANYTHNG ABOUT HONOR?! I KNOW THIS CAUSE I STUDIED AND RESEARCHED MARTIAL ARTS BEYOND THAT FARCE THE MMA IS!
2)UFC IS NOTHING, EXCEPT A DISPLAY OF EGOTISTICAL INDIVIDUALS CLAIMING TO BE MARTIAL ARTISTS!
3)PRACTICING OR JUDGING MMA IS NOTHING EXCEPT TO SAY THAT YOU'RE OPINIONATED! ANYONE CAN JUDGE AND THAT MAKES THEM EXPERTS?! I DON'T THINK SO...
4)Just cause you think a martial art is worthless, doesn't make it so and you are no authority either! Today's form of fighting is more accurately called pit fighting which is mainly pugilistic! It only goes to the floor because the fighters are poor practitioners! Real masters finish before they even go to the ground wrestling. And fighters always have bad days not to mention bad techniques! This is why you think the way you do, you have been watching poor examples.
5)Hollywood aside, your discipline should be to respect and develop your art, not to tear anyone or any other kind down! That says you had a poor teacher, sensei, sifu!

As far as the precious Gracies, did you happen to see that none of them do well in PRIDE? The first Gracie brother to fight in PRIDE got torn apart by a mere Japanese wrestler! LOL! Dude, I may hate the Gracies and I admit it! But the martial arts are not so cut and dry as you make them out to be. Lastly, MMA is not example of any martial art! That's like watching Evander Holyfield today and suggesting that Heavyweight Boxers are worthless! What you have seen isn't even the real thing!

To address the actual topic at hand: Punisher has an edge in two main areas! He has been established as a uniquely trained fighter[sort of speaking], but as a man [as Nightmask asserted] he is near or at peak human capabilities. Daredevil confirmed this [with his enhanced senses] a long time ago when the Punisher took him out with a rubber bullet![Daredevil 183] [www.coverbrowser.com] Clint is in no way close to this!

The second is that the Punisher's skills and knowledge have been shown as effective in all areas of combat [acknowledging continuity] to such a high degree, that only Captain America has ever been shown to be able handle [consistently] the number [and skill level] of foes that the Punisher has bested! Clint has been shown as a a fighter in a class far above normal and to his credit is no pushover, yet he is most efficient fighting in a group and seldom does well alone! That is the factual history on Hawkeye and by these two factors alone the scales slide towards Frank. I, however, am inclined to agree!

civet5285 Wrote:
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> Okay, we're a little OT here, but I've got to
> weigh in on this in regards to mma matches and so
> on:
>
> Styles make matches in MMA as in every combat
> sport. A beats B, B beats C, but maybe C turns
> around a beats A. There's no transitive property
> in fighting, which is what makes it exciting.
>
> Martial arts all have techniques that can work in
> MMA; it depends on how you train in them. When
> people say karate doesn't work in mma, they may be
> saying (hopefully) that "pure" karate doesn't work
> in MMA, or pure tkd. Nowadays, pure muay thai,
> pure graciejj, pure submission grappling or pure
> wrestling don't work either. It doesn't mean
> fighters with those pure skills couldn't beat
> someone, but they won't excel at the high levels.
> Karate and tkd, for example, can be good against
> grappling styles provided the practitioner knows
> enough grappling to defend it, and can keep the
> fight in their arena.
>
> Kung fu being worthless is something Cung Le might
> have something to say about. We can ask Frank
> Shamrock about how "worthless" san shou and fast
> wrestling were against him.
>
> Sumo is something that, while I'm a fan of, I am
> not knowledgeable about. A pure sumo stylists
> would do as well as any pure stylist named above,
> but since I'm largely ignorant about Sumo
> technique, I'm not going to say there's nothing
> there for an MMA fighter to use.
>
> Royce schooled some fighters who were pure karate,
> wrestling or boxing guys. However, if you look in
> modern MMA camps, what coaches are in every (and I
> mean EVERY) modern MMA camp? A boxing coach, a
> wrestling coach. The idea that boxing and
> wrestling have nothing to offer the MMA fighter is
> completely and totally wrong. They, like all the
> other pure styles, had to be adapted to MMA, but
> then it was clear they had a lot to offer.
>
> Karate is starting to go the same way. (Ask Tito
> Ortiz how "useless" karate is in a real fight; he
> really beat up Machida, didn't he?) People said
> the same thing about Judo not to long ago, then
> Yoshida, Parisyan, and Fedor started (and
> continue) to use judo techniques to school their
> opponents.
>
> It's ignorant and short sighted to claim any
> martial art is "worthless" for a real fight. Pure
> styles of any kind don't do well in MMA. Many many
> styles have something to offer MMA provided they
> are adapted.
>
> Matt Hughes didn't lose because MMA style evolved
> beyond him. If that were true, wrestling,
> explosive athleticism and ground and pound would
> no longer be effective in MMA, a patently stupid
> claim to make. He lost because Alves' particular
> mix of styles was better on that night, and he was
> better on that night, than Hughes.
>
> No one is good at everything; MMA athletes
> specialize, as do every kind of athlete. Some are
> good at wrestling and boxing, some at muay thai
> and jujitsu, others at some other hybrid of
> variants. Doesn't make any of them worse or
> better.
>
> Personally, I have some experience in amateur MMA
> (pancrase-style), am ranked in judo, was a former
> amateur boxer and wrestled in h.s. I am not now
> nor would I ever claim to be a bad-ass or tough
> guy (there are a lot tougher out there), but to
> the extent someone might feel personal experience
> validates an opinion, I have the background to at
> least back up my opinion.
>
> Sorry to go further OT. I love this thread.
>
> As an aside, much of the debate of Hawkeye v.
> Punisher may be based on a fundamental weakness
> behind MMURG's use of the "Fighting" stat, and the
> fact that it goes into the Health score.

civet5285: Thank you so much for this! If I had read that far before responding I would have just said "I AGREE WITH THIS!"