civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like it, although I don't care for how the list
> assumes that everyone higher can beat everyone
> lower on the list; it seems to me that there is no
> transitive property in comics. (A beats B, B beats
> C, but that doesn't mean A beats C).

That was one of my problems with it as well. Also, depending on the day, some of those fights could go the other way.

> I'm not so
> sure Silver Surfer would beat the magic characters
> so easily; magic-type characters have powers that
> seem to operate in a much different way in comics
> than the standard bruisers, depending on the
> writers.

I see your point, but Norrin is not exactly your standard bruiser either. It has never even crossed my mind that Dr. Strange would be able to defeat the Silver Surfer.

He's better off just Summoning him when he needs help. The Power Cosmic is no joke and not trivial in it's application. (as I'm sure you know)

> Rules wise, though, it'd be interesting to
> actually run these fights under a judge's favorite
> rule-sets and house rules just to see if the
> outcome of the list is accurate.

That would be cool.

Only problem is getting everyone to agree on what the stats for each character are, what rules to play by, how the characters would behave in battle (read: how they fight).

Now for my own little atom bomb: Thor and Silver Surfer are a flat out tie to me.

Taarna’s all marvel tournament.

I am thinking about running a tournament of 32-marvel hero’s or villains in head-to-head match up type of game. I am picking out some of the best non-demi god, non-cosmic, and non-immortals to do battle.

The rules ( which I will be tweaking ) are this.

1 ) For a twist we use Ben Riley’s page as a default to settle stat arguments.

2 ) Assume they are no karma loss, non-death type of matches where the loser and winner instantly regains full health once the match ends.

3 ) Assume the matches take place in a class 5000 room that is 5 areas wide, 5 areas across, and 5 area’s high with an earth like Atmosphere, a small amount of water, boulders, and trees, etc….

4 ) Assume there is a time limit of 1 hour for each match, and if a hero or villain plays keep away by flying away or using speed to not engage, he or she forfeits the match.

5 ) Each match has a voting period of 4 days, and to speed things up, I will be listing two matches at a time until the final four. If you vote, you are welcome to say why you picked so and so to win

6 ) Once the hero’s are picked, I will be doing a random draw.

7 ) I would like this to be a separate thread, if Skycutter is ok with the idea.

Gimmie some names…….

Punisher v. Hawkeye (does the fighting area have any kind of cover?)
Captain America v. Batman (I wasn't happy with the Amalgam result)
Iron Man v. Cyborg (Teen Titans, not Superman)
Timber Wolf v. Wolverine
Deathstroke v. Taskmaster

"Taarna’s all marvel tournament."

Im thinking all Marvel means no DC characters civet5285. Even though I like your matchups there. Except for CYborg, Iron Man would totally own him.

Ok Taarna, here are some of my favs.

Doom vs Ironman

Doom vs Dr Strange

Hyperion vs Hulk

Taskmaster vs Wolverine

Doop vs Holacaust

Blade vs Wolverine

Dracula vs Belasco

Mr Happy Wrote:
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> "Taarna’s all marvel tournament."
>
> Im thinking all Marvel means no DC characters
> civet5285. Even though I like your matchups there.
> Except for CYborg, Iron Man would totally own
> him.
>
> Ok Taarna, here are some of my favs.
>
> Doom vs Ironman
>
> Doom vs Dr Strange
>
> Hyperion vs Hulk
>
> Taskmaster vs Wolverine
>
> Doop vs Holacaust
>
> Blade vs Wolverine
>
> Dracula vs Belasco

At this point I just want 32 names. The battles will be random.

Kinda hard to exclude the superheavyweights, though; those are the battles most people want to see.

Ultimately the Punisher. He wouldn't go into a fight against a guy who was trained by Captain America and led his own Avengers team without a lot of preparation before hand. Combine that with Castle fighting dirty as sin, hawkeye gits a bullet through the liver.

Captain America beats the Dark Knight, but not without about a 3 issue fight. The shield is the ultimate equalizer, though Batman fighting dirty will turn the tide in his favor several times throughout. But Cap being at that threshold of being nearly superhuman will compensate.

Iron Man beats Cyborg using an old suit of armor while his current one is getting waxed. He's smarter, more experienced, and he has the Extremis in him. Cyborg winds up becoming the new security guard at Stark Tower.

Wolverine murders timberwolf and then goes to have a beer about it. A teenager who hangs out with guys who wear pink would not be ready for how brutal and savage Logan would make that fight.

Slade wipes the floor with Taskmaster. While physically tasky has a lot going for him, he's like a kid with downs syndrome compared to an intellect like Deathstroke's.



civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Punisher v. Hawkeye (does the fighting area have
> any kind of cover?)
> Captain America v. Batman (I wasn't happy with the
> Amalgam result)
> Iron Man v. Cyborg (Teen Titans, not Superman)
> Timber Wolf v. Wolverine
> Deathstroke v. Taskmaster

Cool. How about:

Hulk v. Count Nefaria

Thor v. Juggernaut

Punisher v. Hawkeye

Wolverine (modern amped-up version) v. Angel (Apocalypse version)

Wolverine (human-realistic version) v. Daredevil (Ultimate)

Dr. Strange (Sr.) v. Silver Surfer (two very different ultra-power sets)

Hulk (Green Scar) v. Thor (Ultimate) (just to see, be creative)

Ultimate Dr. Doom v. Marvel Zombies (cosmic version(I really wanted to see this fight))

Hyperion v. Wonder Man (present Ionic version)

Taskmaster v. Sabretooth (I don't know why I want to see this)

Shang-Chi v. Wolverine (human-realistic version)

Wolverine (h-r) v. Conan (as long as we're dreaming, and Conan was once a marvel title)

Elektra (from Elektra Assassin) v. Remo Williams (a one-shot a long time ago, I think).

Captain America v. Elektra (whichever version)

Here it is, the battle of the Lizard Kings... At stake, the title of King of the Monsters...

Personally, as much as I like Godzilla, I gotta give this one to Fin Fang Foom. Godzilla's tough, but so is Foom, and Foom is far more intelligent and has a distinct tactical advantage in being able to fly...

God help the landscape....

civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cool. How about:
>
> Hulk v. Count Nefaria
>
> Thor v. Juggernaut
>
> Punisher v. Hawkeye
>
> Wolverine (modern amped-up version) v. Angel
> (Apocalypse version)
>
> Wolverine (human-realistic version) v. Daredevil
> (Ultimate)
>
> Dr. Strange (Sr.) v. Silver Surfer (two very
> different ultra-power sets)
>
> Hulk (Green Scar) v. Thor (Ultimate) (just to see,
> be creative)
>
> Ultimate Dr. Doom v. Marvel Zombies (cosmic
> version(I really wanted to see this fight))
>
> Hyperion v. Wonder Man (present Ionic version)
>
> Taskmaster v. Sabretooth (I don't know why I want
> to see this)
>
> Shang-Chi v. Wolverine (human-realistic version)
>
> Wolverine (h-r) v. Conan (as long as we're
> dreaming, and Conan was once a marvel title)
>
> Elektra (from Elektra Assassin) v. Remo Williams
> (a one-shot a long time ago, I think).
>
> Captain America v. Elektra (whichever version)


Good names. I am thinking of a top end type of battle royal. This means guys like Daredevil, and Shang-Chi will not be in it. I do think Wolverine can make the cut.

Any more names?

The Hulk. Count Nefaria has a wide and diverse power set, and is capable of taking on whole teams by himself, no doubt. But this is the hulk. The embodiment of Rage. Nefaria does some things that keep hulk off balance for a while, but at the end of the issue, Hulk Smash.

Juggernaut winds up rubbing his backside and hitting himself in the head to remind himself that he should stick to fighting X-Men. Thor is just smarter than Juggy, while Juggy still uses the counting sticks method to do math. Physically it's a wash, but when juggernaut makes a mistake, like he always does, Thor capitalizes.

Already did Punisher v. hawkeye. outcome's still the same

If you mean by the apocalypse version of Angel as in Death/Archangel, then he beats Wolverine. Archangel's blades were just as lethal as wolverine's, plus he could use them at a distance, and most importantly, fly. Wolverine had a big problem with Warren when they clashed in inferno, and it went to Rogue to make the save.

Wolverine beats Daredevil, however, Ultimate or otherwise. Daredevil is very much Wolverine's match when it comes to fighting ability. However, Matt bleeds and the damage he takes is the damage he keeps. Wolverine's bones can't be broken, and he will heal the bruises that Matt delivers without much of a problem. oh, and did i mention the claws?

Dr. Strange/can/ beat the Silver Surfer, but it really depends on how far Strange wants to take things. If he absolutely has to win, Strange isn't above summoning a powerful Demon of the Mephisto/Satanish caliber. But he's only willing to do that sort of thing when his back's against the wall. Since the two are some of the closest friends in the marvel U, the good doc wouldn't pull out all the stops until forced, if even then. The Surfer takes it.

Ultimate Thor has been shown not to be nearly as powerful in the physical sense as his mainstream counterpart. he's been beaten up by ultimate Colossus, ultimate Venom, and lost to the ultimates hands down. The Green Scar beat all of the major teams of the Marvel U by himself. Green Scar uses Ultimate Mjolnir to build himself a new castle.


I have to give the fight to the Marvel Zombies over ultimate Doom. They aren't very smart, and they're rotting corpses, but they're persistant. If they found a way to eat the surfer and eat galactus, ultimate Doom is an appetizer.

I guess it depends on the Hyperion we're talking about, the Supreme Power version, or the cartoony JLA rip. either way though, hyperion is essentially Superman, and Wonderman is a joke that wears a 70's red coat. I give it to hyperion.

I think Sabertooth beats taskmaster. Again healing factor is the edge in this one.l but let's face it, Taskmaster is 0 for infinity against Deadpool. i seriously don't think he stands a chance against sabertooth.

I want to say Shang Chi could beat wolverine. he's definately the better fighter of the pair. but Shang is ultimately human, and wolverine still can heal, and still has unbreakable bones. Shang would beat on wolverine and beat on him, and beat on him, but eventually, wolvy scores a hit with his pig stickers and shang is down for the count.

However Conan the Barbarian could beat the canucklehead.
Conan has faced threats that existed in a time undreamed of. Threats which could devour the primordial world that had a lot more advantages than being hard to hurt and having super sharp knives coming out of their hands. Conan is just as fierce and brutal as wolverine, and once he realized that the sword of crom wasn't enough to do lasting damage, Conan probably douses wovie in oil and roasts him. Then conan finds some hot chick and bangs her by the fire.

The Destroyer beats Elektra. A guy who has been taught some of the deepest secrets of martial arts beats a Skrull in my book.

The same thing with Captain America. only faster.


civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cool. How about:
>
> Hulk v. Count Nefaria
>
> Thor v. Juggernaut
>
> Punisher v. Hawkeye
>
> Wolverine (modern amped-up version) v. Angel
> (Apocalypse version)
>
> Wolverine (human-realistic version) v. Daredevil
> (Ultimate)
>
> Dr. Strange (Sr.) v. Silver Surfer (two very
> different ultra-power sets)
>
> Hulk (Green Scar) v. Thor (Ultimate) (just to see,
> be creative)
>
> Ultimate Dr. Doom v. Marvel Zombies (cosmic
> version(I really wanted to see this fight))
>
> Hyperion v. Wonder Man (present Ionic version)
>
> Taskmaster v. Sabretooth (I don't know why I want
> to see this)
>
> Shang-Chi v. Wolverine (human-realistic version)
>
> Wolverine (h-r) v. Conan (as long as we're
> dreaming, and Conan was once a marvel title)
>
> Elektra (from Elektra Assassin) v. Remo Williams
> (a one-shot a long time ago, I think).
>
> Captain America v. Elektra (whichever version)

I do just love that description covering Conan's victory conditions especially the caveat of how he spends his time afterwards. So point on.

Remember that Elektra from "Elektra Assassin" had some insane abilities, including making bullets bounce off her hand and crazy mind tricks. That's the version I was referring to, and I think it'd be closer.

I agree about Conan. He'd probably take a sh*t in the ashes, too, and laugh about it. He was that kind of guy. His sense of humor was a little cruel, no doubt.

Well Conan wouldn't be that crude but for his era he was what passed for a hero, when the world was still primitive and moral development was still slow on the spread through humanity. In the modern era if he were transplanted he could fair well with some adaptation time and learning not to kill (although more than likely he'd be more like Punisher, targeting only the parasites on society as he'd view them).

When did Thor lose to Venom? I missed that one.

There was actually a "what if" about Conan in the MU, and he encountered Captain America. Pretty cool, although not as gory as it would have been if Conan really found his way there; it would be very difficult for him to restrain himself from killing and maiming, for sure.

Elektra (assassin) v Remo would be, I think, closer than one might think; in that limited series, Elektra basically was like Sinanju, pretty much unbeatable no matter the numbers or weapons against her.

In "Conspiracy of Dunces" Daredevil actually stopped Wolvie cold with a throat shot. It didn't kill or injure him, but it sure stopped him. He couldn't fight while he was struggling to breath. I can't help but wonder if DD could somehow knock or choke Wolvie unconscious. Otherwise, I agree Logan outlasts Matt.

Ultimate Doom isn't flesh and blood anymore, is he? He has nothing the zombies could actually eat (according to the FF crossover), and he has that alien parasite that makes him powerful enough to mow down the zombie FF with ease. I'm not so sure it'd be as cut-and-dried for the cosmic flesheaters.

Isn't Wonder Man pretty near invulnerable, especially with his new Ionic powers? I would have thought he could draw with Hyperion.

Does the hypothetical battlefield have cover? Without it, it'd be a quick-draw contest b/t Punisher and Hawkeye, which might be closer; on reaction speed, I would think they're close (if not a slight edge for Hawkeye). For smarts, tactics, strategy, and meanness, of course, Frank, but in a quick-draw contest, maybe he has problems.

Leaving out the general fan and movie requirements when it comes to Godzilla and go just by their general power levels I'd have to give it to Fin Fang Foom, since he's far more intelligent, agile, and as you point out has his flight capabilities to let him get some range and attack Godzilla with some softening up attacks before going in for the kill.

Doom -=VS=- Ironman


That’s a Good One….

Dr. Doom         | Iron Man        |
                 |                 |
F: RM:30         | F: IN:40        |
A: EX:20         | A: RM:30        |
S: RM:30         | S: MN:75        |
E: IN:40         | E: UN:100       |
R: IN:40         | R: IN:40        |
I: AM:50         | I: EX:20        |
P: AM:50         | P: TY:06        |
                 |                 |
HP: 120 / 120    | HP: 245 / 245   |
KP: 140 / 140    | KP:  66 /  66   |

Dr Doom looks a little out Classed (At 1st) compared to Iron-Man’s “Bruteness”… But Doom’s Power’s are pretty much right on par with Iron-Man….

Doom’s Armor is Generally Rated higher than Iron-Man’s…... (?????)

Their Weapon Systems are nearly equal at AM:50 to MN:75…. Iron Man can break loose with some SX:150 stuff… And Iron-Man has a little more Targeting Range….


But Doom has ‘Magic’ at RM:30 to AM:50 which could grossly play to Doom’s Favor…


By simple specs; I’d say Iron-Man would win… but just by the skin of his teeth….

A power-stunt savvy Player could have Doom just ruin Iron-Man’s Day….


That’s a TUFF-FIGHT…

Doom would really take down Stark fairly easily in a full-on 'no comic writer skewing the results' conflict between the two of them. Doom's armor is simply not depicted with the level of technology in it that it should be, even with the Dr. Doom Boxed Set's efforts it's still not really shown where it should be. Superhumans are a problem because their powers are inherent but of the two Doom is the master of technology not Iron Man and would easily unleash some anti-tech weapons that would leave Stark as powered down as he was after his spat (Stark was so outclassed you can't call it a fight) wih the revived Thor.

Actually, Doom and Iron Man clashed fairly recently in the pages of Mighty Avengers. In terms of tech and armor, even with extremis on Tony's side, Doom's armor was still unhackable, and on a level of power output, seemed to be really on an even field. Going full tilt on each other it was pretty much a deadlock with doom's shield systems draining at a slightly faster rate than tony's. but Doom's magic totally threw tony off and advantage went ultimately to Doom. Then he played tricks with the time platform.

While surfing the Archive Forum I found this battle in the Discussion board. Couldn't help myself....here:

[www.classicmarvel.com]

LOL!!!!!

I say ‘Homer J. Simpson’…….. Simply for vintage and being the longest running Cartoon Series ever published….


Griffin is cool and all, and will probably run as long as the Simpson’s…. And I love Stewie…… But The Simpson’s pioneered the whole ‘Dysfunctional American Family’ Icon..


Plus Homer has been depicted with a some slight ‘Powers’ in True Invulnerability, Super Human Strength, Demon Possession, and an unbreakable Will to pull-off some really Risky Stunts…….

Well, maybe the Will-Power comes from lack of intelligence……. But riding a ‘Chopper’ upside-down in a glass dome with your son hanging on to a sub-atomic bomb takes some ‘SKILLZ’…… Or Ka-Honnies the size of melons…


Other Match-ups

Snake-Eyes -=VS=- Bat-Man

Bat-Man -=VS=- Punisher

Punisher -=VS=- Snake-Eyes










This is another GOOD Match-Up

Blade -=VS=- Wolverine

Blade            | Wolverine       |
                 |                 |
F: IN:40         | F: IN:40        |
A: RM:30         | A: RM:30        |
S: EX:20         | S: GD:10        |
E: EX:20         | E: RM:30        |
R: GD:10         | R: GD:10        |
I: GD:10         | I: MN:75        |
P: TY:06         | P: IN:40        |
                 |                 |
HP: 110 / 110    | HP: 110 / 110   |
KP:  36 /  36    | KP: 125 / 125   |
                 |                 |
Powers:          | Powers:         |
                 |                 |
Fangs:           | Skeleton:       |
GD:10 Damage     | CL:1000         |
                 |                 |
Berserker:       | Claws:          |
UN:100 to Stun   | MN:75 Damage    |
                 |                 |
Vampire Immunity | Animal Empathy  |
UN:100           | AM:50           |
                 |                 |
Occult Intuition | Senses:         |
IN:40            | MN:75 Odor      |
                 | IN:40 Audible   |
Equipment:       |                 |
Swords           | Regeneration:   |
IN:40 Damage     | AM:50           |
                 |                 |
Various Guns:    | Berserker:      |
GD:10 to MN:75   | IN:40           |
                 | Stuns Ignored   |
Regeneration:    | Attacks [+1cs]  |
IN:40 by Blood   |                 |
                 |                 |

Batman has been shown in a couple of different cross overs beating the crap out of the punisher, i think he would do the same with snake eyes as well, the Punisher vs Snake Eyes could be interesting though.
As far The Simpson’s pioneered the whole ‘Dysfunctional American Family’ Icon.. they may have done it for animation but id say "The Honeymooners" was the first true pioneer while it might not seem like a big deal today back in 1955 when the show aired it was very ground breaking, also "All in the Family" with Archie Bunker was a pretty dysfunctional family back in 1971

Batman's shown beating Superman, the Martian Manhunter, and just about everyone this side of Galactus so what company crossovers we occasionally see really aren't examples of Batman's superior talent to Punisher it's just an example of 'Batman has to beat everyone except Captain America' writing.

In a straight up fight, Bat-Man's gonna have a hard time with Snake Eyes. The Silent Master is capable of doing some rather incredible things, plus he has no compunction against killing. That slight edge might help Snake Eyes take an early advantage over Bat-Man, but this one is definately a good fight. I give the slight edge to Snake Eyes, but really this one is a coin flip and over an extended series of fights it'll probably be a dead heat.

Punisher gets the living snot out beat out of him the first time. like hands down, gets embarassed. Then in the second fight, the Punisher gets beat down again, except the Punisher lets Batman know at the last minute that he uncovered Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, and all of Batman's supporting cast's secret ID's and planted bombs at all their houses. but thenhe tells Batman he'll let them live as they both should wage their wars on crime, but not each other. Frank also leaves out the part about rigging the batcave to blow at any point in time.

Punisher and Snake Eyes... hmmm. This one is actually really good because the playing field is the most even, and the two's mindsets are uncanilly similar. They'll both kill if they need to. hand to hand, Snake Eyes is the man, but Frank would know he's dealing with the military's best and he's going to ensure he has the ground advantage before Snake Eyes even knows where he is. So this one is a protracted game of cat and mouse, but ultimately I see Frank winning the initial encounter, by having some sort of ace in the hole he'll be able to pull one time. But in the rematch, it's anyone's game.

The battle of former sidekicks Nightwing vs Winter Soldier. I think this match up has the potential to be a classic
both were trained by 2 of the best hand to hand fighters of their respective Earths.
both are masters of stealth attacks.
They have simular fighting styles
Nightwing probbaly has more gadgets to fight with but Winter Soldier probbaly has the more lethal weapons.

Winter Soldier doesn't even need the lethal weapons. he was trained to be a black ops soldier before there were black ops at about the same age that nightwing was flying across the trapeeze. Considering the Winter Soldier was little more than a myth in the SHIELD records for about 60 years before they could even confirm his existence, speaks volumes about how ill prepared Nightwing is for this one.

Winter Soldier wins it in half an issue, while Nightwing has some mid-twenties crisis about how Bruce doesn't love him.

You'd also have to like Winter Soldier's arsenal vs. the utility-belt style that Nightwing has. Can't bring a gas grenade to a gun fight; Winter Soldier takes down Nightwing.

How about the Beast when he was Blue and furry, vs the Lizard. That would be a very good one.

that would be a great match up, i think in the end the beast would find a way to out smart the lizard

Yeah, I agree. Lizard is physically tougher, has better armor, and probably a more savage fighter, but Beast is a near genius, with Agility in Spider-Man's class. Even without the danger sense, Beast should be able to stay out of trouble until he can figure out how to beat Lizard. If they fought in a phone booth, though, Lizard eats Beast.