Didnt the SSS also have a Thunder God simular to Thor

Powersurge Wrote:
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> Classic Alpha Flight vs. classic "Soviet Super
> Soldiers"???
>
> I'm not sure if AF could contend with this line-up
> if the SSS have BOTH Crimson Dynamo and titanium
> Man.

At one point the SSS did have Perun in their line-up, who was a different pantheon counterpart to Thor. If that version went against Alpha Flight likely the win would be for the SSS. The original SSS with Darkstar, her brother, and the bear guy on the other hand would have had a hard time against Alpha Flight particularly when she's vulnerable to the light flash of the twins.

I'm think the line-up that appeared in the first X-Men/Avengers mini-series. This line-up included Vanguard, Darkstar, Ursa Major, Crimson Dynamo, and Titanium Man.

The classic AF line-up would of course be ... Weapon Alpha, Sasquatch, Shaman, Northstar and Aurora.

Powersurge Wrote:
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> I'm think the line-up that appeared in the first
> X-Men/Avengers mini-series. This line-up included
> Vanguard, Darkstar, Ursa Major, Crimson Dynamo,
> and Titanium Man.
>
> The classic AF line-up would of course be ...
> Weapon Alpha, Sasquatch, Shaman, Northstar and
> Aurora.

Hmmm, a five-on-five match. AF edges out a bit on the top end of Strength with Sasquatch but SSS have more high strength/high damage characters and someone who can deflect enemy attacks and attempt to use them against others. I think it goes to the SSS, who have a wider range of offensive and defensive features.

Shaman's too much of a trump. He could have an oak tree growing out of both Titanium man and Crimson Dynamo. Add a duo of speedsters to the mix (plus you guys are forgetting Puck, a good spoiler) and Guardian... the SSS just is outclassed.

Shaman could be a big factor but he could also be the first to fall. Magic users are an unknown in any fight. One second they can be going toe to toe with an elder demon, the next they are getting knocked out by a person with no powers

I know it already happened in a "What If", but that issue was kind of written with a popularity bias toward Wolvie imo.

How do you guys think it would really go down? Dracula vs normal Wolverine and Dracula vs Vampire Wolverine?

Dracula vs Nomal Wolverine = Dracula vs Vampire Wolverine 3 days later = Wolverine Lord of the Vampires

Dracula vs. the "entire" X-Men happened as well, in the legit timestream. Ummm, UXM #159 or thereabouts if I remember correctly. Pre-170 anyway, pre-Brood arc too. Anyway, Wolvie didn't fare too well. Colossus neither. In fact, you could say that Drac handed them their ... bumper. lol

RE; Shaman ... I have to agree with geekgirl ... Shaman could be a huge asset in the fight, or he might go down really quick. Of course, this is a team fight, and one would think the prudent thing to do would be to run interference for him until he could pull something out of his (medicine) bag o' tricks.

I'm still favouring the SSS, despite my inherent bias towards AF.

Shaman tends to try and hide back where people will overlook him so he can use his magic bag of tricks for surprise attacks and because he knows he's the most vulnerable of the team. Only human average stats on the FASE end and no real combat experience or protective armor as a part of his costume. He's more the Cypher or Cyclops of the team, shouldn't be in the main fight needs to stay back. But since he has to make an attack that will draw the attention of the SSS to him unless it's something that puts them all at an overwhelming disadvantage the SSS will have someone target him and he's down quite fast at that point.

Wolverine loses against Dracula, he simply hasn't what it takes to overmatch a powerful undead vampire who's even older than he is. The only reason he wins a rematch as a vampire is because vampire vs vampire is much like 'let the most evil prevail' situation and Wolverine as we saw in his classic encounter holds a towering berserker rage and feral beast inside. Once that was augmented by the curse of Vampirism you have 'normal human augmented by vampirism' vs 'reasonably powerful mutant augmented by vampirism'. Dracula loses the edge he had to start and simply doesn't have what it takes to win against an unleashed Wolverine.

To me, it's not just Shaman that's an important key to victory, but also the duo of Northstar and Aurora as speedsters. The big assets I see the SSS having over OG Alpha are Titanium Man and Crimson Dynamo - two tanks that are tough enough to give Iron Man tough moments individually. But the rest of the team would probably get cancelled out in terms of effectiveness by counterparts in Alpha Flight.

Enter Northstar and Aurora - Now here we have two people who can mitigate the effectiveness of every member of the SSS wexcept the two armored characters. But that's ok. It keeps folks like Darkstar, Vanguard, and Ursa Major from being able to focus directly on the Guardians, Marinas, Pucks, Sasquatches, etc. of Alpha Flight, giving an edge to the Alpha frontline.

Enter Shaman - Now TT and CD probably have sophisticated enough sensors to track Northstar and Aurora in combat (maybe not, they were using substandard Soviet tech, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt). Here's where Shaman is key. His powers being rooted in magic can probably pull off effects that the two armored Russians can't even detect. But Shaman's magic is showy, so let's say they just see some crazy crap visually and decide to target Shaman - Alpha will be more effective at calling audibles to have the Alpha front line protect Shaman, while Northstar and Aurora keep the SSS Front Line occupied via superspeed.

Alpha Flight just has more tools at their disposal. They might lack the physical toughness of a Titanium Man or a Crimson Dynamo, but I really don't think it matters, because the SSS have no good answer for two speedsters and a mage,

I know Thor would beat Storm in an all out fight but what would happen if Thor and Storm fought over control of the weather. both seem to have about the same level of weather control. Myself i think Thor would win due to the fact he is much older than Storm and has been controling weather on a much greater scale than Storm for a much longer time.

Thor, he magically summons and controls the weather Storm has to manipulate things within the boundaries of the environment. A single command and Thor's creating a torrential downpour Storm on the other hand is still trying to draw in the elements needed to create one and will never make it work in a desert.

Nightmask Wrote:
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> Thor, he magically summons and controls the
> weather Storm has to manipulate things within the
> boundaries of the environment. A single command
> and Thor's creating a torrential downpour Storm on
> the other hand is still trying to draw in the
> elements needed to create one and will never make
> it work in a desert.


what if it was for control of an existing storm. I read once where dracula and Thor had a battle of wills over control of a storm. Dracula was powered up at the time,but im not sure even a powered up dracula would have as much control as Storm does

geekgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thor, he magically summons and controls the
> > weather Storm has to manipulate things within
> the
> > boundaries of the environment. A single
> command
> > and Thor's creating a torrential downpour Storm
> on
> > the other hand is still trying to draw in the
> > elements needed to create one and will never
> make
> > it work in a desert.
>
>
> what if it was for control of an existing storm. I
> read once where dracula and Thor had a battle of
> wills over control of a storm. Dracula was powered
> up at the time,but im not sure even a powered up
> dracula would have as much control as Storm does

Dracula's Weather Control is actually superior to Storm's, as is Thor's. Thor does after all happen to be the God of Thunder, master of the storm. Both Dracula and Thor are magical creatures as well, so unless she was in the midst of a power rush (such as when she was turned to organic chrome and created a Category 5 hurricane on the East Coast) Storm really doesn't measure up to them. Dracula on the other hand is just close enough to Thor to make it a heavy contest where perhaps a 'no mortal can defy me!' bit of arrogance might have Dracula win the contest (but not the follow-up).

i guess magic does out class mutant powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2011 03:24AM by geekgirl.

Not always but characters like Dracula and Thor outclass Storm both in strength and nature of their control. They can literally conjure up with their control whatever elements are absent to generate the weather effect that they want, Storm has to work with what's there. It doesn't mean she's weak just that strong as she is they're stronger.

Nightmask Wrote:
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> And my point was that Superman whined every time
> he was struck by something magical in the DCU,
> didn't matter if it was someone who was magically
> boosted and it was just a normal fist for the most
> part hitting him, magical yet blunt staff, sword,
> book, etc. He was always complaining about
> everything that had magic about it being able to
> bypass his Invulnerability or at least inflict
> some harm where a non-magical attack of the same
> intensity wouldn't phase him. Mjolnir's at least
> as inherently enchanted if not moreso than many of
> the items Superman complained about in the DCU.
> Which makes it more of a 'Superman has to top Thor
> even if it violates the long-standing rules for
> him' by shrugging off Mjolnir when he'd have not
> done so and hasn't at any point in his history a
> similar item in the DCU.


This is true, I remember Superman being cut by a vampires finger nails... anytime i run superman I treat magical items damaging him as if he doesn't have any protection.

Considering MOST magical items and weapons still deal "conventional" damage, while a magical dagger hurts superman... it's not like he hurts him that badly because he has nearly 500 health points.

geekgirl Wrote:
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> Shaman could be a big factor but he could also be
> the first to fall. Magic users are an unknown in
> any fight. One second they can be going toe to toe
> with an elder demon, the next they are getting
> knocked out by a person with no powers


True, but Shaman does have 4 people more then capable enough to buy Shaman time to pull off some major damage.

I was surprised Wolverine could even turn into a vampire.

I thought for sure his healing factor would cancel out being undead.

Kasz216 Wrote:
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> I was surprised Wolverine could even turn into a
> vampire.
>
> I thought for sure his healing factor would cancel
> out being undead.

Yes one would think that but for some odd reason vampirism which works by killing the host is something Marvel writers seem to think his Healing Factor is totally helpless against while things that don't harm or damage him in any way it will fight vehemently. Really need to teach some basic courses in logic and common sense to the writing pool at Marvel.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kasz216 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was surprised Wolverine could even turn into
> a
> > vampire.
> >
> > I thought for sure his healing factor would
> cancel
> > out being undead.
>
> Yes one would think that but for some odd reason
> vampirism which works by killing the host is
> something Marvel writers seem to think his Healing
> Factor is totally helpless against while things
> that don't harm or damage him in any way it will
> fight vehemently. Really need to teach some basic
> courses in logic and common sense to the writing
> pool at Marvel.


i think it was explained that Dr Nemisis used nanites to shut his healing factor down so that he could be turned and then at the right moment they turned his healing factor back on and it fought off the vamprism

geekgirl Wrote:
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> i think it was explained that Dr Nemisis used
> nanites to shut his healing factor down so that he
> could be turned and then at the right moment they
> turned his healing factor back on and it fought
> off the vamprism

They've shown Wolverine being vampirized even in situations where it's just a vampire went after him, including in some what-ifs. Same goes with the zombie virus from the Marvel Zombies stuff. It's a complete Deus Ex Machina that affects everyone without fail no matter how impossible infecting said victim would be. Character has super-regeneration able to reconstruct their body from nothing? Infected. Totally invulnerable to harm to the point they could survive being tossed into the sun or a black hole unscathed? Infected. Totally alien physiology rendering them immune to all terrestrial diseases? Infected. Total wallbangers to have such things affect Wolverine but something like Lycanthropy which doesn't harm the host and in fact enhances it is shown being resisted vehemently. Talk about failing logic forever. Seems like the only reason that they do it is because 'well Wolverine's already a beast so we don't think it'd be anything but cliche for him to become a Werewolf too'.

616 reality trumps What-if alternate U's.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
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> 616 reality trumps What-if alternate U's.

Not always, it depends on the question. Traditional what-ifs such as in the original run of What-If are predicated on the fact that only one factor is changed and events are tracked from that everything else should fit into canon. Something that's caused problems with some what-ifs such as that retcon regarding Alicia Masters and her relationship with Johnny Storm because some were unhappy with her being with anyone but Grimm (even though Grimm managed to find and date others without complaint it seemed). The Inferno what-if with Alicia's and Johnny's son became derailed due to that retcon to make it really a skull infiltrator.

More recent what-ifs show little ability to hold to this premise, such as the Secret Wars what-if that while a pretty story was derailed because firstly Doom with the Beyonder's powers would have beaten the Celestials with little more than a wave of his hand, and he's explicitly shown taking the Infinity Gems to top that off which again as absolute master of reality he'd just shut the Celestials down with but a thought and certainly wouldn't have fought a battle over centuries or done the impossible of actually depleting the gems let alone the Beyonder's power he stole.

No. 616 is marvel reality. What-if's are What-if's. Let me say it again. 616 is marvel REALITY.

CapoCastillo Wrote:
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> No. 616 is marvel reality. What-if's are
> What-if's. Let me say it again. 616 is marvel
> REALITY.

No, 616 is a great deal more than that. It's also every setting that interacts with it including the what-ifs. Especially when a what if is 'everything in 616 until this branch point, everything else being equal'.

NM,

No, once a reality diverges/becomes a What If..It is no longer 616..Thats why each of the What If realities have their own designation.

I agree with Gene and Capo, The Marvel Universe is separated into an infinite # of Realities, each as real as the last but completely different from the last. The just happen to use #616 as their main publishing brand. The Ultimate Universe happens to be #1610.

Night Mask, I suggest reading the The Exiles V1; Great series from beginning to end starring Blink, Mimic, Nocturne and Morph. Eventually Spider-Man 2099 becomes a main character through their adventures. I suggest the series highly! Its been my 2nd favorite outside of the first Runaways series.