BelleReeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Gene and Capo, The Marvel Universe is
> separated into an infinite # of Realities, each as
> real as the last but completely different from the
> last. The just happen to use #616 as their main
> publishing brand. The Ultimate Universe happens to
> be #1610.
>
> Night Mask, I suggest reading the The Exiles V1;
> Great series from beginning to end starring Blink,
> Mimic, Nocturne and Morph. Eventually Spider-Man
> 2099 becomes a main character through their
> adventures. I suggest the series highly! Its been
> my 2nd favorite outside of the first Runaways
> series.

I have read the entire series of which at no point does being a what-if invalidate my earlier statements, which had included noting that Wolverine had been shown by some writers to have no benefits or protections at all to being turned into a vampire or zombie but had been shown inexplicably rejecting something that's not an illness or physically damaging item to be triggering his Regenerative ability. There is no logical reason why he'd be able to resist the one but not the others whether or not you're talking a what-if, since the main foundation of 'what-if' is 'all else being equal'. So unless that's the divergence Cyclops exists with an uncontrollable Optic Blast, Spider-man's still web-slinging around, etc. Otherwise it's not a what-if it's just an 'almost like the 616 universe for the most part but not quite and not really a divergent what-if but if you blink you'd think it was' universe.

NM,


The reason Wolverine is effected by Zombification and Vampirism, but not by Lycanthropy, as I have
said before...Is that they change the body after it is dead, whereas Lycanthropy works on a living body.
Regeneration (Not Immortality--Regeneration, which is what Wolverine is supposed to have) heals a
living body..It doesnt do squat for a dead one as it is a function of enhanced healing and the dead dont
heal by biological processes. So therefore, no matter how neat you think it would be for Wolveine to
get the tacked on powers of Lycanthropy it is canon that his body fights it off. Where as a Wolverine
killed by Zombie Bite or Vamp Bite (Also canon since your insistance that What Ifs are) is infected
and changes, again After Death.

I am not trying to be sarcastic but I do not see your logic in your arguement, and therefore this will be
the last time I wade in on this particular subject as In My Opinion, you are not being logical or listening
to people who are. Again, not being Insulting or Sarcastic..Just stating the facts as I see them. Just like
you are stating Your Opinion that Wolverine should be immune to Zombification/Vampirism and should
just get a boost from Lycanthropy.

Gene Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NM,
>
>
> The reason Wolverine is effected by Zombification
> and Vampirism, but not by Lycanthropy, as I have
> said before...Is that they change the body after
> it is dead, whereas Lycanthropy works on a living
> body.
> Regeneration (Not Immortality--Regeneration, which
> is what Wolverine is supposed to have) heals a
> living body..It doesnt do squat for a dead one as
> it is a function of enhanced healing and the dead
> dont
> heal by biological processes. So therefore, no
> matter how neat you think it would be for Wolveine
> to
> get the tacked on powers of Lycanthropy it is
> canon that his body fights it off. Where as a
> Wolverine
> killed by Zombie Bite or Vamp Bite (Also canon
> since your insistance that What Ifs are) is
> infected
> and changes, again After Death.
>
> I am not trying to be sarcastic but I do not see
> your logic in your arguement, and therefore this
> will be
> the last time I wade in on this particular subject
> as In My Opinion, you are not being logical or
> listening
> to people who are. Again, not being Insulting or
> Sarcastic..Just stating the facts as I see them.
> Just like
> you are stating Your Opinion that Wolverine should
> be immune to Zombification/Vampirism and should
> just get a boost from Lycanthropy.


never thought of it like that before, that makes sense to me. Now in the case of a zombie bite...If wolverine got bitten but not killed would he still die slowly like most people and comeback as a zombie or do you think his healing factor would fight the infection and not become a zombie

Depends on the 'intensity' of the zombie infection and if it could override his healing factor.

Gene Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NM,
>
>
> The reason Wolverine is effected by Zombification
> and Vampirism, but not by Lycanthropy, as I have
> said before...Is that they change the body after
> it is dead, whereas Lycanthropy works on a living
> body.
> Regeneration (Not Immortality--Regeneration, which
> is what Wolverine is supposed to have) heals a
> living body..It doesnt do squat for a dead one as
> it is a function of enhanced healing and the dead
> dont
> heal by biological processes. So therefore, no
> matter how neat you think it would be for Wolveine
> to
> get the tacked on powers of Lycanthropy it is
> canon that his body fights it off. Where as a
> Wolverine
> killed by Zombie Bite or Vamp Bite (Also canon
> since your insistance that What Ifs are) is
> infected
> and changes, again After Death.

I never said I thought Wolverine getting lycanthropy would be neat, only that some might find his being tacked on with vampirism or zombification neat and just ignore that his primary power is directly opposed to something like that happening, and lycanthropy would be rejected as too cliche a conversion even though it's right up his alley and isn't anything that ought to bother his Regeneration.

> I am not trying to be sarcastic but I do not see
> your logic in your arguement, and therefore this
> will be
> the last time I wade in on this particular subject
> as In My Opinion, you are not being logical or
> listening
> to people who are. Again, not being Insulting or
> Sarcastic..Just stating the facts as I see them.
> Just like
> you are stating Your Opinion that Wolverine should
> be immune to Zombification/Vampirism and should
> just get a boost from Lycanthropy.

I'm being quite logical Gene, since you have to actually kill someone first to turn them as a vampire, and you know what with his Regeneration it's really hard to kill Wolverine even in the classic days. So the vampire's bite is trying to kill his cells, meanwhile his Regeneration is fixing his cells and if it can't kill him it can't logically turn him. The same goes for the zombification virus. Even as little as I've looked at the Marvel Zombies I know that the zombies bite someone, infecting them with the disease and it converts them into a zombie. So it's an infection, so Wolverine Regenerates and has extreme resistance to infections, therefor turning Wolverine into a zombie with something that infects him and has to kill him is again not very logical. Meanwhile lycanthropy isn't an infection, it's not carried by any kind of agent, it doesn't harm any cells so again logically his Regeneration shouldn't notice it let alone fight it off. So on my end I can't see why you aren't following the logic that a man shown to regenerate and shrug off nearly all disease would be as vulnerable as any average human to things that are directly related to what his primary power is designed to resist.

Has it been presented just the opposite in the comics? Yes, but not everything in comics is presented with a foundation of logic behind it (not even comic book logic) a lot is done just for what sounds cool or would entertain but require you not think about things very much if at all.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm being quite logical Gene, since you have to
> actually kill someone first to turn them as a
> vampire, and you know what with his Regeneration
> it's really hard to kill Wolverine even in the
> classic days. So the vampire's bite is trying to
> kill his cells, meanwhile his Regeneration is
> fixing his cells and if it can't kill him it can't
> logically turn him. The same goes for the
> zombification virus. Even as little as I've
> looked at the Marvel Zombies I know that the
> zombies bite someone, infecting them with the
> disease and it converts them into a zombie. So
> it's an infection, so Wolverine Regenerates and
> has extreme resistance to infections, therefor
> turning Wolverine into a zombie with something
> that infects him and has to kill him is again not
> very logical. Meanwhile lycanthropy isn't an
> infection, it's not carried by any kind of agent,
> it doesn't harm any cells so again logically his
> Regeneration shouldn't notice it let alone fight
> it off. So on my end I can't see why you aren't
> following the logic that a man shown to regenerate
> and shrug off nearly all disease would be as
> vulnerable as any average human to things that are
> directly related to what his primary power is
> designed to resist.
>
> Has it been presented just the opposite in the
> comics? Yes, but not everything in comics is
> presented with a foundation of logic behind it
> (not even comic book logic) a lot is done just for
> what sounds cool or would entertain but require
> you not think about things very much if at all.


Well, I am going to have to agree with NM, and suggest/assert that his logic is sound! I offer the time when Wolverine was infected/implanted by the Brood and his regeneration ability resisted the transformation and he was able to purge himslef... as evidence. And as was already mentioned, Vampirism and Zombie-ism (lol) is often dependant upon the host (if you will) having previously died in order to manifest! Wolverine clearly has a resistence to tissue death, poisons, toxins, disease and aging, to name a few. Should the bite of a zombie or vampire, no matter how poweful, infect him it would not have an easy time causing tissue death or "his" death... Wolverine has been split in half, sliced through his core, burnt, and gutted...and has not died as a result (in 616). So if someone could explain how he would die in order for these conditions to take hold? I think the idea of nanites being introduced is novel, but I don't see why his regeneration abilities, often called a healing factor, would not resist them as well?! Especially when you conisder that the Brood is not simply a poison, but acts much like vampire and zombie bites, it seeks to transform the host.

Daikumanoken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I'm being quite logical Gene, since you have to
> > actually kill someone first to turn them as a
> > vampire, and you know what with his
> Regeneration
> > it's really hard to kill Wolverine even in the
> > classic days. So the vampire's bite is trying
> to
> > kill his cells, meanwhile his Regeneration is
> > fixing his cells and if it can't kill him it
> can't
> > logically turn him. The same goes for the
> > zombification virus. Even as little as I've
> > looked at the Marvel Zombies I know that the
> > zombies bite someone, infecting them with the
> > disease and it converts them into a zombie. So
> > it's an infection, so Wolverine Regenerates and
> > has extreme resistance to infections, therefor
> > turning Wolverine into a zombie with something
> > that infects him and has to kill him is again
> not
> > very logical. Meanwhile lycanthropy isn't an
> > infection, it's not carried by any kind of
> agent,
> > it doesn't harm any cells so again logically
> his
> > Regeneration shouldn't notice it let alone
> fight
> > it off. So on my end I can't see why you
> aren't
> > following the logic that a man shown to
> regenerate
> > and shrug off nearly all disease would be as
> > vulnerable as any average human to things that
> are
> > directly related to what his primary power is
> > designed to resist.
> >
> > Has it been presented just the opposite in the
> > comics? Yes, but not everything in comics is
> > presented with a foundation of logic behind it
> > (not even comic book logic) a lot is done just
> for
> > what sounds cool or would entertain but require
> > you not think about things very much if at all.
>
>
> Well, I am going to have to agree with NM, and
> suggest/assert that his logic is sound! I offer
> the time when Wolverine was infected/implanted by
> the Brood and his regeneration ability resisted
> the transformation and he was able to purge
> himslef... as evidence. And as was already
> mentioned, Vampirism and Zombie-ism (lol) is often
> dependant upon the host (if you will) having
> previously died in order to manifest! Wolverine
> clearly has a resistence to tissue death, poisons,
> toxins, disease and aging, to name a few. Should
> the bite of a zombie or vampire, no matter how
> poweful, infect him it would not have an easy time
> causing tissue death or "his" death... Wolverine
> has been split in half, sliced through his core,
> burnt, and gutted...and has not died as a result
> (in 616). So if someone could explain how he would
> die in order for these conditions to take hold? I
> think the idea of nanites being introduced is
> novel, but I don't see why his regeneration
> abilities, often called a healing factor, would
> not resist them as well?! Especially when you
> conisder that the Brood is not simply a poison,
> but acts much like vampire and zombie bites, it
> seeks to transform the host.


wolverine would die from blood loss, or depending on where the blood was being drained he could die much faster from lack of blood going to the brain. Even if he didnt stay dead from blood loss he could still "die" from it. a vampire bite is a magical infection so it could act more like a curse to where you only have to be dead for a few seconds for it to take hold. Although as i said earlier it eas shown in the mutants vs vamipres that his healing factor had be shut down alowing him to be turned and then when it was turned back on it destroyed the infection, so i dont know magic has its own rules...lol

geekgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wolverine would die from blood loss, or depending
> on where the blood was being drained he could die
> much faster from lack of blood going to the brain.
> Even if he didnt stay dead from blood loss he
> could still "die" from it. a vampire bite is a
> magical infection so it could act more like a
> curse to where you only have to be dead for a few
> seconds for it to take hold. Although as i said
> earlier it eas shown in the mutants vs vamipres
> that his healing factor had be shut down alowing
> him to be turned and then when it was turned back
> on it destroyed the infection, so i dont know
> magic has its own rules...lol

So does Wolverine, considering he goes from a modest but compared to everyone else impressive ability to heal to being able to reform his body from literally nothing at all. Clearly it's no longer a Regeneration factor and what he's got is some form of Immortality or he's some kind of undead already hence why it's possible for something like vampirism or zombie-ism to infect him, he's no longer alive really to resist like he could in his classic days and why a benign magical curse like Lycanthropy gets fought off instead of embraced.

Batman vs. Hannibal Lectar



vs



Could Bruce take down Hannibal and put him in Arkham? I'm thinking that Hannibal would present such a challenge that Batman would have to borrow a trick from Hannibal and go to the incarcerated Joker for help.



Maybe Hannibal could even deduce Batman's identity? Now that would be a fun movie, fitting the theme of the Hannibal movies but incorporating Batman's mythos into the story. I would watch this movie

Hannibal is insane but only clinically. Whereas the joker's a complete nutter, Lector follows a distinct methodology so 1)going to the joker wouldn't be helpful at all...someone like Vandal Savage or Kobra would be more useful, & 2) A young hannibal might arguably be a physical match for batman, but in the later years...even taking into account that great escape scene from silence of the lambs...he's out "muscled".

that being said...that would be the first movie I ever camped outside to get tickets for...

VS



EDIT

just to make sure this doesn't come off as horribly one sided, my vs match ups are:

Beta Ray Bill vs Diana (divine powers)
Gladiator vs Superman (duh)
Batman vs Ronan (gadgets...ronan has a better one, but its still a gadget...)
Hal Jordan vs The Silver Surfer (cuz vs Quasar is too expected)
Black Canary vs Quasar (I know, I know...but Dinah has him beat in hand to hand and the canary cry MIGHT be an equalizer...)




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 04:41AM by Brotherless_one.

I'd give that to Marvel any day of the weak.

Canary and even to an extent Batman are just too outgunned.

Even with the Cry it should take Quasar about 30 seconds to take out Canary.

After that it's just Dominoes. Every other matchup would take a long time.

So Quasar just tips the scale quite a bit in each match.

Though then again I suppose divine powers means Wonder Woman could tap into the godwave which would change things a bit.


One on one... Beta Ray Bill VS Wonder Woman depends on how much of her gear she has access to. Standard loadout sans godwave I think Beta takes it, but if she gets any of her "heavy duty" equipment....

Superman beats Gladiator... Gladiator I actually think is probably a bit stronger then soups at "Max confidence" since he was based off of Pre-Crisis Superman and at his height rips planets in half, but Superman's determination wears down Glads confidence.

Ronan beats Batman more often then not... though writers would likely come up with a creative way for him to win just because they aren't going to have Batman lose to a Marvel C-lister.

Green Lantern vs Surfer depends on how smart surfer is with his powers. Theoretically Surfer could counter everything Hal could throw at him via energy drain and the ring's power reserves could be dried. (They still need recharging right?) If he decides on a direct on blasty shooty fight, i'm not sure who wins.

And Well... Quasar just destroys Black Canary. Quasar is basically a slightly less powerful Green Lantern with less weaknesses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2011 03:59PM by Kasz216.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> geekgirl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > wolverine would die from blood loss, or
> depending
> > on where the blood was being drained he could
> die
> > much faster from lack of blood going to the
> brain.
> > Even if he didnt stay dead from blood loss he
> > could still "die" from it. a vampire bite is a
> > magical infection so it could act more like a
> > curse to where you only have to be dead for a
> few
> > seconds for it to take hold. Although as i said
> > earlier it eas shown in the mutants vs vamipres
> > that his healing factor had be shut down
> alowing
> > him to be turned and then when it was turned
> back
> > on it destroyed the infection, so i dont know
> > magic has its own rules...lol
>
> So does Wolverine, considering he goes from a
> modest but compared to everyone else impressive
> ability to heal to being able to reform his body
> from literally nothing at all. Clearly it's no
> longer a Regeneration factor and what he's got is
> some form of Immortality or he's some kind of
> undead already hence why it's possible for
> something like vampirism or zombie-ism to infect
> him, he's no longer alive really to resist like he
> could in his classic days and why a benign magical
> curse like Lycanthropy gets fought off instead of
> embraced.


I agree with NM, especially since one would think blood loss would also be a factor in the many states Wolverine has recovered from. As for death, how can that even be established? Brain death, tissue death, cell death all seem to be a mystery with Wolverine? At best you could say he can be rendered unconscious, but not dead momentarily. Otherwise you would have to say that Wolverine is immortal. I think its just not clear that Wolverine can die (naturally) nor is it clear that a werewolf bite is any more or less magical than a vampire or zombie bite. But in the interest of making sense, magic seldom makes any. So if we say that the bites are magic, then I guess I have no argument. If magic is the case, it kinda makes the need for nanites nonsensical doesn't it?

Kasz216 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Fair analysis.... I differ in these areas.


Beta Ray Bill vs Wonder Woman
Beta Ray for the win: Gear means a lot, I guess this new WW is tougher. I don't read much DC these days. But Beta Ray did best Thor w/o enchanments and he has fought all sorts of Cosmic beings. WW would have to summon some amazing things to best him. Fighting at peak, from the start I give it to Beta Ray. Even if Beta Ray goes easy at first, I still give it to him. But, WW could win it... with what, I can't say?


Gladiator vs Superman
Gladiator for the win: I know there are haters and people that consign Gladiator as a cheap superman, but he has demonstrated feats that match or best supes and held his own against many superman-type foes and won. His fight with Supreme was most telling. Though supes is tough and many grant him tons, Gladiator is a trained warrior and skilled in tactics. He also has one weakness so it depends on where the fight takes place and how long. Though everyone thinks Gladiator crumbles every time his power finds a match, then he might as well give up his claim as warrior! Though I am biased, I still pick Gladiator as a more skilled fighter, and a more viscious attack strategy.>


Silver Surfer vs Green Lantern
SS wins everytime no matter how they fight. SS like Galactus controls the power cosmic, and can control/absorb the ambient energy everywhere and in all things. Though he can be drained, he can easily replenish himself and nearly all forms of energy are at his disposal. He can also manipulate and reconstruct molecules. He has shown to have the ability to alter his size, and strength as well as phase through solid matter. While at times he has seemed lame in terms of strategy, he has seen and learned a vast amount of things far beyond the scope of anything a single Green Lantern could imagine/comprehend. I guess it depends on who is writing it?

I have to agree for the most part...I think the Batman/Ronan fight is the most interesting...one you take the Universal Weapon out of Ronan's hands, he's still pretty damn formidable...strong, well armored, and a skilled solider and military genius according to wikipedia...c-lister or not, he very well could hand bruce a loss. Bruce being Bruce, though, it's hard to say...(Ronan vs Dick = Ronan)

RE: Quasar vs Canary-
See...here's the thing. Quasar's just a regular guy. Like Hal...so if Canary fights smart, she's got a pretty good chance of holding her own. HOWEVER, she still loses because of the whole not being able to fly thing.

Well for one... Wonder Woman does have some Gauntlets that are a lot like Thor's belt. Though rather then making her twice as strong they make her ten times as strong.'

People don't give her credit but standard Wonder Woman is essentially every bit the fighter Superman is when you are talking about blunt and energy attacks and doesn't have the magic weakness that I would say makes him lose to foes like Thor and Beta Ray Bill. (Even if the most recent crossover disagrees.)


Gladiator vs Superman, I can just see going either way, Gladiator has some great feats, but he also has some awful ones... to be honest I see a 1on1 fight going a lot like Champion VS Thing... though less onesided. Gladiator getting the CLEAR better end of the fight for the first 70% of the fight, but eventually realizing that Superman's will just won't let him go down, causing him to lose faith just a crack, and lead in for Superman to start making a comeback and things getting out of control with Gladiator. I mean, it's a guy who's prone to getting weaker as fights go on (in more depictions then not) vs someone that's often portrayed as the Ultimate comeback kid.

I think Superman will be bloodied and barely able to stand after the fight,(and therefore useless in the next "round" but I see him pulling it off. It'd probably be the last battle to end.

SS vs GL - I mostly agree... it's just SS often fights dumb... despite cosmic senses and so many things he can do. Any other GL and I give it to surfer easily.... (except maybe Daxamite green lantern.)

Hal though... DC just loves Hal and his "unbreakable willpower." I just picture a situation where they trade a couple blasts then Surfer just tries to drain the Green Lantern ring, with Hal resisting through his "unbreakable willpower!" and somehow stops it so it's just draining a little bit of the power of the ring. With Silver Surfer talking about how "Hal's efforts are noble but in vain because no mere man could hold out against the power cosmic for long." With Hal then saying something like "I wasn't planning to!" and then reversing the flow releasing a large part of the rings energy if not all of it at Silver Surfer in one monstrous MEGA blast that pretty much forces Hal to recharge his ring... or try to depending on who would be finished first.

Wonder Woman actually should be considered a far superior fighter to Superman. Unlike Superman she's grown up with intensive combat training and nearly matched opponents forcing her to learn how to fight and fight excellently. Superman even post-Crisis didn't grow up with all that much combat training other than what scuffles you get as a teenager and some football education. I still think she'd lose to Bill but he'd have to really earn the victory, his victories over Thor were a bit of a handwave rather than obvious superiority.

I don't see Gladiator's 'confidence flaw' really coming into play against Superman, just because someone's not going to surrender and you have to pound him unconscious to win isn't going to cause you to lose confidence in yourself like that. Gladiator's flaw kicks in more when he's left with the feeling that his opponent's literally unbeatable, someone who by all rights ought to go down like when he thought he was pounding Reed but was really pounding Cap's shield. That rattled his confidence because here was someone he was sure was a nothing compared to him laughing at his power and mocking him as a weakling and was seemingly proving it.

Ronan all the way against Batman, leaving out the fanwank of an unbeatable Batman who apparently can't handle normal human level opponents but can outwit every super around including Superman Ronan just outclasses him in too many ways. Going 'Batman's got a gadget to beat everyone' is a cop-out that can be used for just about everyone especially the smarter characters like Reed Richards (who often has a gadget handy or can kitbash one on the spot), Spider-man, and Forge.

Silver Surfer did face off against Jordan while he was Parallax, as a GL it's pretty iffy who'd win. Quasar's beaten the Surfer by draining his powers but Hal doesn't really have that option and wouldn't know enough about Surfer to even try, and those emerald energies probably aren't the sort Surfer could absorb. I think it'd come down to a coin toss who'd win any particular day, maybe edging towards Surfer if written using his full potential instead of set up to lose.

Black Canary just isn't going to win out against Quasar, anymore than she'd take out Hal. He's create some protective headgear out of Quantum energy then imprison her in a bubble her sonic cry couldn't overcome.

Ok...clearly I have some Dinah love going on right now...

...For Quasar to make protective head gear he has to first know about the cry, which suggests she's already used it at least once. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Wendall doesn't fly around with a protective corona like Hal does, so (assuming he's near enough to ground level) Canary (hypothetically) gets in a stun from the sonic attack and then cold cocks him while he's recovering. And she's good enough to take him out in one punch.

Not that I think that's what would happen, only that it could happen and still be in character to the best of my knowledge for each of them. Just like it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for Quasar to just put the Canary in a Quantum cage and be done with the whole thing. Hence, it could go either way.

Same with Ronan, actually. Kree physiology is close enough to human that Batman out fighting him isn't all that unlikely. Your average Kree (I'm assuming) is about as tough as Killer Croc (but with a thinner hide). Granted Ronan's not your average Kree...and is just as capable without his hammer as Bruce would be without his belt. Ultimately, its a question of strategy and tactics which determines the victor in that contest (which is why I matched them up...batarangs ain't gonna have too much of an effect on Ronan but his "attack edge" is fairly obvious and would be the first thing anyone with even a slight amount of common sense would separate him from). So...using all the relevant data available on both subjects & ignoring each of their respective records (otherwise Ronan would lose simple because he usually does against hero types) and instead focusing on their documented abilities and attributes, one can reasonably come to the conclusion that they are rather evenly matched in every area save technologically.

Or, more directly, it's not "fan wank" to suggest a character is capable of doing things which they've been consistently portrayed as doing. In that regard, it would not be outside of the realm of possibility that Batman could beat Gladiator by exploiting his weakness and, in fact, would be more consistent with Kallark's previous portrayals (merely substituting Wayne for Richards) than it would with playing the "batman beats everybody cuz he's batman" game.

However, I do have to give this particular fight to the Annihilators..and yes, with Ronan and Quasar the victor of their respective matches (Ronan fights smarter than Killer Croc), but with Diana over Bill (DC's gods are just more powerful than Marvel's and WW beats them more often than not) and a double ko between Supes and Gladiator (Kallark has more skill, but I like to think Kal has learned a thing or two about holding back against people that hit like him after the whole death thing). A GL ring is versatile but Hal wouldn't be able to defeat Darkseid by his lonesome & Norrin's at least at the same level of power.

Ronan however is wearing heavy armor that also augments his physical capabilities, he's not Kree Normal FASERIP and he's never to my knowledge ever been shown out of it so he's not going to be mano-a-kreeo with Batman, he's still going to have the edge in his stats and durability by a wide margin. There are no weak spots to exploit really, no way he could find and hit a Kree's pressure points (if they even have them), and debatable that he could even bind him with his bat rope given Ronan's strength.

Black Canary also is hindered by her not using her attack where she'd risk killing someone, she'd go for the safer level of attack first and most likely before everyone paired off she'd have used it on one of the obvious tanks first given Quasar reason to prepare. Even if he didn't he actually does tend to go around with a protective energy sheath since he's like Hal and without said protection we'd have seen him dead a long time ago from the kinds of opponents he's gone up against.

I don't think Nightmask is saying the problem with Bruce Wayne is that he beats high powered opponents.

It's that he has problems vs weak opponents.

Batman will take down Amazo or Mongul or some other stupid high superman threat, and then will get his clock cleaned by Killer Croc only pulling out a lucky victory.

Kasz216 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think Nightmask is saying the problem with
> Bruce Wayne is that he beats high powered
> opponents.
>
> It's that he has problems vs weak opponents.
>
> Batman will take down Amazo or Mongul or some
> other stupid high superman threat, and then will
> get his clock cleaned by Killer Croc only pulling
> out a lucky victory.

That is one way of putting it. Go to Batman's titles and he's being challenged and frequently beaten and outwitted by the likes of the Joker or Killer Croc go to the Justice League and people that'd vaporize Batman's entire Rogue's Gallery with less than a thought are being outwitted and taken down by him all the time. You'd almost have to think him almost incompetent or really just not caring about the job when dealing with 'regular' criminals when he's dealing with such super-villains so easily. His level of success/competence is shown being backwards; instead of having increasing difficulty until he's no longer capable of really doing anything it's just the opposite. He starts out relatively easy to beat by opponents his level and becomes more difficult to beat the more powerful his opponents until he's handily defeating literal gods (remember he was depicted actually sneaking into and out of Hal Jordan's Spectre abode completely undetected yet he's frequently caught in the shadows of a warehouse by normal human henchmen while spying on some gang or Rogue's Gallery sort like Joker).

Kasz216 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well for one... Wonder Woman does have some
> Gauntlets that are a lot like Thor's belt. Though
> rather then making her twice as strong they make
> her ten times as strong.'
>
> People don't give her credit but standard Wonder
> Woman is essentially every bit the fighter
> Superman is when you are talking about blunt and
> energy attacks and doesn't have the magic weakness
> that I would say makes him lose to foes like Thor
> and Beta Ray Bill. (Even if the most recent
> crossover disagrees.)
>

Well I give WW very much credit. More so than supes. But when comparing the two, I would say that Thor is stronger than WW and the doubling the belt does is not merely strength, but endurance as well. I don't see any version of WW holding up to the version of Kurse that was powered by the Beyonder. Btw, this fight is between Beta Ray and WW. As for that, I am not one for the "kitchen sink" (anything that gives an edge)or "canon" POVs (inconsistent, but official retcons). I try to make the bare arguments as rational as can be allowed in comic-dom. To me, Beta Ray looks the better.

>
> Gladiator vs Superman, I can just see going either
> way, Gladiator has some great feats, but he also
> has some awful ones... to be honest I see a 1on1
> fight going a lot like Champion VS Thing... though
> less onesided. Gladiator getting the CLEAR better
> end of the fight for the first 70% of the fight,
> but eventually realizing that Superman's will just
> won't let him go down, causing him to lose faith
> just a crack, and lead in for Superman to start
> making a comeback and things getting out of
> control with Gladiator. I mean, it's a guy who's
> prone to getting weaker as fights go on (in more
> depictions then not) vs someone that's often
> portrayed as the Ultimate comeback kid.
>
> I think Superman will be bloodied and barely able
> to stand after the fight,(and therefore useless in
> the next "round" but I see him pulling it off.
> It'd probably be the last battle to end.
>
Gladiator is no way near the class of Thing, and the Thing didn't even get close to a 1% dominance in his fight with Champion. Though he has been soiled in the recent past (both in his performances with Cannonball and his assignment of the name Kallark), Gladiator is every bit the match for supes and more. He wasted the Thing in less than a second and went on to finish the entire FF in record time! He survived a nova level explosion (dead center) which resulted in the birth of a star. Only pre-crisis superman has been this tough. And if you saw his bouts with Hyperion or Supreme you would know he does not tire as fights go on.

As a hint, his weakness is not his confidence, it's his vulnerability to a certain rare form of radiation. Only Reed Richards surmised his power was psionically enhanced since he was able to fight out of Sue's containment bubble, where she experienced psionic feedback. Another clue was that when he lifted the Baxter building, it didn't crumble under its own weight, signifying that he was using something more than pure strength. And as NM said, it was something inconceivable that broke his confidence, since a mere mortal as Reed should not have been able to stand, completely unharmed from his assault. Though I hate to admit it, the mess with Cannonball was an equal event. Since then of course, he has shown to be less solid, but so has supes. One day supes struggles to lift a train or boulder and another he is moving a planet, and that was pre-crisis? It's unlikely that supes or anyone without past experience will have time to exploit this aspect of Gladiator's vulnerabilities.


> SS vs GL - I mostly agree... it's just SS often
> fights dumb... despite cosmic senses and so many
> things he can do. Any other GL and I give it to
> surfer easily.... (except maybe Daxamite green
> lantern.)
>
> Hal though... DC just loves Hal and his
> "unbreakable willpower." I just picture a
> situation where they trade a couple blasts then
> Surfer just tries to drain the Green Lantern ring,
> with Hal resisting through his "unbreakable
> willpower!" and somehow stops it so it's just
> draining a little bit of the power of the ring.
> With Silver Surfer talking about how "Hal's
> efforts are noble but in vain because no mere man
> could hold out against the power cosmic for long."
> With Hal then saying something like "I wasn't
> planning to!" and then reversing the flow
> releasing a large part of the rings energy if not
> all of it at Silver Surfer in one monstrous MEGA
> blast that pretty much forces Hal to recharge his
> ring... or try to depending on who would be
> finished first.

I will grant that Surfer has fought dumb in the past, as well as brilliantly. But he is usually facing cosmic beings that finesse is unlikely to get the win. Without enough raw power, someone like Tyrant, Morg or Thanos is likely to just laugh at you. Any Green Lantern is far less than this. With all due respect, the GLs are unique and their energy may be resistant to manipulation, but if it isn't, Hal would not be able to do anything if the Surfer decides to drain it. Remembering that all molecules are subject to his will, the Surfer need not drain but can also transform. As for a direct attack, the Surfer can fly through the heart of stars and black holes and even time-warp. I just don't see a Lantern with that talent/ability, acknowledging that the Surfer's powers don't drain with use. But it doesn't meant the fight can never go to a GL.

In this corner...


and in this corner...


...LLLLLL-Let's get ready to RUMBLE!

Beta Ray Bill vs Diana
- This one to me is a tough call. But i would probably give the edge to Diana, though it would be close and she would probably have taken one of the worst punishments of her existence. BRB is by no means a push-over, but i think the fighting prowess of Diana in conjunction with divine powers giving her a lot more staying power, would give her an edge. I think it would just break down on who could withstand more punishment in the long-haul. I believe she would manage a few extra hits over BRB.

Gladiator vs Superman
- This one i would have to give to Superman. Though this would be akin to a fight with doomsday to begin with. The fact that Gladiator bitchslapped Juggernaut is a true testament to his power. I think this would in fact just break down to a contest of wills. I think after Superman gave back as good as he got several times, the confidence of Gladiator would start to falter and so would his powers. But again, Supes would be black and blue.

Batman vs Ronan
- If it came to a "blink" both before each other, i think Ronan would just vaporize Batman. However, if Batman KNEW he was going to face Ronan and was able to formulate some attack plan, customize some special gadgets and so on.. then MAYBE he would have a chance. I do not believe that Batman can even hurt Ronan with his standard EQ, the best he could hope for would be to evade and escape.

Hal Jordan vs The Silver Surfer
- Ive always like Hal, but SS would paste him. Despite his power ring's wide range of effects and abilities, i believe it would have limited effect on the SS at the best of times. And if SS is in one of his "determined to kick your arse" mind sets, he would quickly swat aside anything Hal could throw at him. Likely just drain the power rings energy. Or just someone up on of his massive cosmic energy blasts that would just vaporize Hal and the ring. Heck i think SS could defeat pretty much anyone else in this battle.

Black Canary vs Quasar
- The only way BC would have a chance is if it was by complete surprise or she managed to get the drop on him. And even then, if she wasnt able to take him out in the first attack, Quasar could effectively just vaporize the entire city block she is standing in.

Here is an odd competition concept.

Stark vs. Wayne enterprises.

If these two were to go head to head in a tech based war who would win.

Not so much an Ironman vs. Batman but let's say each corporation was hired by an outside source say...LEXcorp or even Microsoft for whatever reason hired these two to make the best weapons in some sort of competition. Now of course Ironman and Batman would eventually some how come to conflict because that's how comics are.

So which company is capable of making the most state of the art technology? Which company would win if each decided to try to "take out" the opposition?

And if it all comes down to it....Ironman vs. Batman. Who has the gadget(s) to get the edge?

Fellupthestairs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is an odd competition concept.
>
> Stark vs. Wayne enterprises.
>
> If these two were to go head to head in a tech
> based war who would win.
>
> Not so much an Ironman vs. Batman but let's say
> each corporation was hired by an outside source
> say...LEXcorp or even Microsoft for whatever
> reason hired these two to make the best weapons in
> some sort of competition. Now of course Ironman
> and Batman would eventually some how come to
> conflict because that's how comics are.

> So which company is capable of making the most
> state of the art technology? Which company would
> win if each decided to try to "take out" the
> opposition?
>
> And if it all comes down to it....Ironman vs.
> Batman. Who has the gadget(s) to get the edge?

Tony Stark can't afford to get on the guest list of a Bruce Wayne party.

Stark is smart enough to be hired by Wayne Enterprises.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2011 07:46PM by Dead Sidekick.

Fellupthestairs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is an odd competition concept.
>
> Stark vs. Wayne enterprises.
>
> If these two were to go head to head in a tech
> based war who would win.
>
> Not so much an Ironman vs. Batman but let's say
> each corporation was hired by an outside source
> say...LEXcorp or even Microsoft for whatever
> reason hired these two to make the best weapons in
> some sort of competition. Now of course Ironman
> and Batman would eventually some how come to
> conflict because that's how comics are.
>
> So which company is capable of making the most
> state of the art technology? Which company would
> win if each decided to try to "take out" the
> opposition?
>
> And if it all comes down to it....Ironman vs.
> Batman. Who has the gadget(s) to get the edge?


1) DC universe is more technologically Advanced. Wayne Enterprises have just started rolling out Batman robots for example.

Like, the DC universe doesn't seem as paranoid as Marvel does.about technology and seems to incorporate futuristic and otherworldly stuff.

In fact there are specific subsidiaries in Wayne's company to study and reproduce alien tech. So Wayne Corp would make the better weapon.

2) If they both decided to take each other out? Well does Stark Enterprises do much outside of Ironman suits for Tony anymore? I mean, even if they mass suits of battle armor there are the aforementioned Batman robots, Wayne Industries makes Warships for the Navy, they just bring more to the table.

3) In this kind of Battle, where Tony knows he's facing Batman, and Batman knows he's facing Tony... I think Batman would get the one up and create a better kind of suit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2011 12:12PM by Kasz216.

Kasz216 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3) In this kind of Battle, where Tony knows he's
> facing Batman, and Batman knows he's facing
> Tony... I think Batman would get the one up and
> create a better kind of suit.

Or creep up into his high security mansion and wake Stark in bed with a bucket of water just to let him know what's up.

Kasz216 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) DC universe is more technologically Advanced.
> Wayne Enterprises have just started rolling out
> Batman robots for example.

DC actually isn't more advanced technologically, it only appears that way because Marvel in keeping closer to the real world doesn't let its advanced technology be as widely available.

> Like, the DC universe doesn't seem as paranoid as
> Marvel does.about technology and seems to
> incorporate futuristic and otherworldly stuff.

This is why the DCU has the appearance of greater technology, because it lets it be more prevalent in the public instead of restrained by the 'Reed Richards is Useless' trope.

> In fact there are specific subsidiaries in Wayne's
> company to study and reproduce alien tech. So
> Wayne Corp would make the better weapon.

You really think Stark Industries doesn't have branches devoted to studying and reverse engineering unique as well as alien technologies? Batman is also generally anti-weapon especially guns so it's a lot less likely he'd be having that much devoted study to making weapons, unlike Stark who even when he went out of the munitions business can't help but spend his time developing more and more powerful and diversified weapons.

> 2) If they both decided to take each other out?
> Well does Stark Enterprises do much outside of
> Ironman suits for Tony anymore? I mean, even if
> they mass suits of battle armor there are the
> aforementioned Batman robots, Wayne Industries
> makes Warships for the Navy, they just bring more
> to the table.

Stark's helped produce some of the Sentinels for the government, and his own mass-produced items aren't to be sneezed at especially when Batman's not a Doom-like producer of Batbots (even the OMAC stuff was on the wallbanger end of things for the character) and Stark does produce a lot of Iron Man suits that do have independent AI functions in case of things like pilot injury or death and with an impressive array of weapon systems.

> 3) In this kind of Battle, where Tony knows he's
> facing Batman, and Batman knows he's facing
> Tony... I think Batman would get the one up and
> create a better kind of suit.

That's really not going to happen. Stark is the ultimate expression of a devoted power armor designer and pilot, it and his always being at or above the bleeding edge of technology is his thing. Batman on the other hand is most certainly not, rarely using power armor and really just isn't as good at it as Stark who's practically as one with piloting power armor as Captain America is at using his shield. When you see Batman's power armor appearances his suits almost always end up crippled or destroyed with him barely escaping and taking out his foe only after it was worn down by the suit. Likely because trope-wise they don't find showing Batman making his victories with power armor to be really Batman so the suit always buys it at some point.

Fellupthestairs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is an odd competition concept.
>
> Stark vs. Wayne enterprises.
>
> If these two were to go head to head in a tech
> based war who would win.
>
> Not so much an Ironman vs. Batman but let's say
> each corporation was hired by an outside source
> say...LEXcorp or even Microsoft for whatever
> reason hired these two to make the best weapons in
> some sort of competition. Now of course Ironman
> and Batman would eventually some how come to
> conflict because that's how comics are.
>
> So which company is capable of making the most
> state of the art technology? Which company would
> win if each decided to try to "take out" the
> opposition?
>
> And if it all comes down to it....Ironman vs.
> Batman. Who has the gadget(s) to get the edge?


I sometimes wonder if the people that post comments actually read the comics they are commenting on? Not to take away anything from this post or the comments I disagree with, in Marvel we have Reed Richards who can basically build anything. We have Doom which also builds Doombots that act much like Doom. We have the Kree and the Skrulls and the Shi'ar which are largely purely technology based cultures. Don't believe me, look it up. Then we have S.H.I.E.L.D. which is certainly equiped with Stark Industries tech. I don't see how anything outright, suggests DC has an advantage? That just falls into misinformation.

As for who is better or who would take out one or the other....that I really can't say. Someone said that Marvel Tech is less available and less widely used...and that is why it appears DC has an edge. Yet, to deal with the Kree and Skrulls who pay visits all the time, I don't think S.H.I.E.L.D. would like to be caught severely out matched. Now I admit, I didn't read the recent storyline regarding the Skrull invasion...so can anyone tell me how S.H.I.E.L.D. fared? Up until then, Stark tech has held it's own especially in Civil War and as for this topic, I would pick Stark Industries.

On the face, all things being equal, I would pick Iron Man defeating Batman. Batman has gadgets, Iron Man has more. One of Batman's "common" gadgets would need to carry something powerful enough to render Iron Man defenseless to get the win and I doubt he does. "Knowing" who they were facing, I would pick Iron Man. Tony has no reason to fight up-close and Batman would need a suit to close the distance. That is Iron Man's territory. Should Tony become over confident and close the distance, Batman has an edge and could use the environment as a weapon to overwhelm Iron Man to get the win.

If the question was between Stark Industries and Lexcorp, I would pick Lexcorp. Just sayin.