Stark tech didn't get much chance to go up against the Skrulls, they had things set up to sabotage his technology thanks to the retcon to create the Illuminati giving the Skrulls access to his unique technology to plan for it before the invasion. So while they mocked it as being 'inferior' to Skrull tech they made sure to disable it right out the door so they clearly were worried about it giving humanity too much of a chance to fight back.

Brotherless_one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In this corner...
> [www.comictreadmill.com]
> umb.jpg
>
> and in this corner...
> [league.jmkprime.org]
> /02/etrigan-1.jpg
>
> ...LLLLLL-Let's get ready to RUMBLE!


This is fun.... I pick Hulk. Yes I am biased, but I have seen Hulk overcome nearly everything including magic...even Dr Strange could not defeat the Hulk easily, resorting to banishing him to an astral plane....I think? Also, Hulk has a funny ability of being resistant to magic and can see magical things...go figure? If the fight is between the Hulk of an earlier time period as shown, then I can't say. I am not familiar with Etrigan from this time period. Maybe it would go to Etrigan?

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stark tech didn't get much chance to go up against
> the Skrulls, they had things set up to sabotage
> his technology thanks to the retcon to create the
> Illuminati giving the Skrulls access to his unique
> technology to plan for it before the invasion. So
> while they mocked it as being 'inferior' to Skrull
> tech they made sure to disable it right out the
> door so they clearly were worried about it giving
> humanity too much of a chance to fight back.


Ah thanks!

Daikumanoken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is fun.... I pick Hulk. Yes I am biased, but
> I have seen Hulk overcome nearly everything
> including magic...even Dr Strange could not defeat
> the Hulk easily, resorting to banishing him to an
> astral plane....I think? Also, Hulk has a funny
> ability of being resistant to magic and can see
> magical things...go figure? If the fight is
> between the Hulk of an earlier time period as
> shown, then I can't say. I am not familiar with
> Etrigan from this time period. Maybe it would go
> to Etrigan?

That was during Hulk's mindless phase, after Nightmare destroyed Banner's control reverting him to savagery once again. However Strange had been drained to a degree from the efforts to help Banner in his mind so wasn't at his full peak but that might not have made a difference in the end. Either way Hulk's proven surprisingly good at dealing with just about everything and I doubt Etrigan would have what it takes to win the fight, especially since Hulk unlike Superman hasn't got a vulnerability to magic.

Original post (from comicvine): BEAT MY TEAM OF POWERHOUSES

Again, I don't feel like joining just to take part in an old conversation, so here's the OP's rules:

Your Rules:
1. Your Team can only consist of up to 4 characters. There can be fewer than 4 though.
2. Your Team can have characters from any universe, but you can't have more than 2 from Marvel or more than 2 from DC.
3. Your Team cannot have any of the characters pictured below (Superman, Icon, Phoenix, and Thor).
4. Your Team cannot have reality warpers, omnipotents, or cosmic abstracts (this includes The Spectre).
5. Your team cannot have Silver Age characters or the Silver Age version of a character.
6. Your Team cannot have a power-up version of a character (RK Thor, Trion Juggernaut, etc.).
7. Your Team cannot have Superboy Prime or Monarch or Zoom.

Here's My Team (Superman, Icon, Phoenix, and Odin-force Thor)

...ok...so I guess we're supposed to ignore that he tried stacking the deck in his favor by blatantly ignoring his own rules # 4 and 6...regardless, if a lifetime of "studying" superhero tactics has taught me anything its that if your opponent operates under the assumption that the odds are in his favor, he's generally overlooking something that will cost him the battle.

so...I'm going to go with:
Atum/Demogorge The God Eater
Magneto
Larfleeze
Swamp Thing (end of vol.2 to start of vol.4)

Match Ups:
Superman vs Atum: The man of steel pitted against (essentially) the Elder God of the Sun. Actually, I think technically he's a Demi-Elder God...how's that work?...his father is the creator of the elder gods and his mother is an elder god...anyway, if all-star supes was solar-powered to death by over exposure to the yellow sunlight, then a few blasts from Atum should take his down fairly quickly...and if not, Atum could always suck it all out of him and go all god eater...

Icon vs Magneto: It shames me that I know nothing at all about Icon...but a quick look over at his wikipedia entry suggests most --if not all -- of his powers (flight, invulnerability, energy generation,etc ) are derived from the manipulation of positrons. Magneto controls the electromagnetic force. Really, its barely a fight at this point...

Phoenix vs Larfleeze: This took some thinking. (seriously...it was almost 5 whole minutes...). Pure Averice vs Raw Passion. I have no idea which way its going to go...

Thor vs Swamp Thing: Essentially an all-father...no...actually an all-father...Thor's power level is bordering on ridiculous. God of Thunder, Son of Jord/Gaea & wields the Odin-Force? How fair is that? So I tossed the representitive of the parliaments of trees, rock, water, air, & fire and new member of the parliament of worlds at him. Its Thor vs Ego...if Ego were a hero...and Midgard...and Asgard...and any other world he went to...

...any one else?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 04:23PM by Brotherless_one.

The Doctor vs Doctor Doom

I can't imagine anything quite as scary as the Doctor with a Cosmic Cube.

The Master with one?

Shouldn't be too surprised at his ignoring his own rules for his group, fairly standard behavior for many to present an 'unbeatable' team and set restrictions that they figure you can't present a competing team solely within those restrictions. But as you note it just gives the competitors the opportunity to own him by building a team within those restrictions demonstrating it's not the power levels as much as the selections working best together.

For team selection of my own I'd go with Gina Diggers and her adopted sister Brittany from the Golddigger comic. Gina's a super-genius whose been evolving into a master of magitech while she can't cast magic herself and can practically build a time machine from rocks and mud (she was locked in a medieval cell and built a forge from the scraps in the cell and was repairing her technology with it in just a few hours). She has a hyperspace storage pocket filled with some serious weapons and defensive devices and could easily own Icon and his super-tech ship and maybe even Phoenix depending on what's in her storage at the time. Meanwhile her sister is a were-cheetah augmented with additional magic items imbued into her and spellcasting ability and would make a very bad deal for Superman (to say the least). About the only thing she can't do is spread her lycanthropy as her adoptive father used his magic to remove that part of her enchantment (only to find out many years later it was a necessary component for the safe and painless birth of her daughter and nearly killed her as a result).

Hal Jordan while he was wearing both a Green and Blue Power Ring, giving him some extra power and the ability to channel Hope from those around him and not just the power of Willpower. Doesn't hurt he can spawn copies of the rings in an emergency either. Definitely not an easy opponent to defeat even for the Phoenix let alone Icon.

Quasar (Wendell Vaughn version), when not being written with the idiot ball to be owned by someone he should have curb-stomped he's got massive energy manipulating abilities and could be a problem for any of the earlier-listed team especially with his ability to drain energy being quite useful to drain off Superman's solar energy reserves (he had no problems draining the Silver Surfer he could do as well with Superman).

All together I think this makes for a very workable team to beat the 'unbeatable' and without needing reality warpers or cosmic beings or gods (otherwise would have included Bor, Thor's grandfather ;-) ).

Brotherless_one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Original post (from comicvine): BEAT MY TEAM OF
> POWERHOUSES
>
> Again, I don't feel like joining just to take part
> in an old conversation, so here's the OP's rules:
>
> Your Rules:
> 1. Your Team can only consist of up to 4
> characters. There can be fewer than 4 though.
> 2. Your Team can have characters from any
> universe, but you can't have more than 2 from
> Marvel or more than 2 from DC.
> 3. Your Team cannot have any of the characters
> pictured below (Superman, Icon, Phoenix, and
> Thor).
> 4. Your Team cannot have reality warpers,
> omnipotents, or cosmic abstracts (this includes
> The Spectre).
> 5. Your team cannot have Silver Age characters or
> the Silver Age version of a character.
> 6. Your Team cannot have a power-up version of a
> character (RK Thor, Trion Juggernaut, etc.).
> 7. Your Team cannot have Superboy Prime or Monarch
> or Zoom.
>
> Here's My Team (Superman, Icon, Phoenix, and
> Odin-force Thor)
>

::licks lips::

Siren (DC Comics) - mermaid; underwater breathing, resistance to cold, hyper-swimming, moderate super-strength, extremely powerful MAGICAL hypnotic voice / mind control

Aquarian (Marvel Comics) - power / strength negating force field

Eternal Warrior (Valiant / Acclaim Comics) Immortality, super-strength, regeneration, millennia of fighting skills, enchanted weaponry

Mr. Weatherbee (Archie Comics) - no powers; but talented leader / principal of Riverdale High when he's not suffering PTSD / Vietnam war flashbacks


=====

Mr. Weatherbee leads his team to fight these so-called "Power Houses" to the death.

Using the powers of her magical hypnotic songs, Siren directs Superman to fight Phoenix and Icon against Odinforce Thor, to fight each other to the death as Aquarian encompasses the wimpy team in a protective force bubble.

As the powerhouses are battling each other, the Eternal Warrior step out of Aquarian's force field to deliver the coup de grace on each one as they fall.

The survivors of the first hypnotically controlled matchups are then turned on each other by Siren. And Eternal Warrior steps out of the force bubble to finish off the last one standing.

The end.




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2011 06:15PM by Dead Sidekick.

My Team.

1-Ultron
2-Super Adaptoid
3-Brainiac
4-Amazo

-Death to all organics!

I had considered Amazo and the Super-adaptoid, but tech characters would run the risk of being suborned by Icon if he was able to tap into his ship's computers and have his AI (which would effectively be a cheat to let in a fifth member onto the guy's 'unbeatable' team) override their operating systems. It probably couldn't manage all four of yours at once just turning one of them would be massively useful from a tactical standpoint especially for the ones with power copying or composite entity super-powers like Amazo and Super-Adaptoid.

Lucifer

VS



Mephisto

*note: the links to both pictures contains 3 sixs...wOOooOOoooOOoo!!

In 3 distinct battles:

1) Raw power vs Raw Power
2) Guile vs guile
3) "Human" chess...literally...each gets a queen, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 kaniggits, and 8 pawns from their respective universes to pit against each other...ok, honestly I just want to see if anyone will play a superhuman chess match...

so...I suppose there's really just 2...

Lucifer hands down. Mephisto only pretends to be what Lucifer actually is and is just a pale shadow of Lucifer.

Brotherless_one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [upload.wikimedia.org]
> fer16.jpg
>
> Lucifer
>
> VS
>
> [upload.wikimedia.org]
> Mephisto-Final.PNG
>
> Mephisto
>
> *note: the links to both pictures contains 3
> sixs...wOOooOOoooOOoo!!
>
> In 3 distinct battles:
>
> 1) Raw power vs Raw Power
> 2) Guile vs guile
> 3) "Human" chess...literally...each gets a queen,
> 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 kaniggits, and 8 pawns from
> their respective universes to pit against each
> other...ok, honestly I just want to see if anyone
> will play a superhuman chess match...
>
> so...I suppose there's really just 2...


Mephisto wins.

In the Marvel Universe, Lucifer is just an "idea" Mephy came up with, and loaned a bit of his power in combination with other demons in gestalt to "create."

This fight is Tuesday afternoon vs. the History of the Universe.

Or Mr. Hat (sock puppet) vs. Mr Garrison (the puppeteer).

Okay, taking the inter-company fight semi-seriously....

"Lucifer possesses incalculable power; he can shape the matter of creation into anything he can imagine including matter, energy, and more abstract concepts such as time. However, he does have certain limitations. Simply put, he cannot create something out of nothing. He needs existing matter (and where that is unavailable, the Demiurgic power of the archangel Michael) to provide the foundation for him to shape. Only his brother Michael Demiurgos is his equal in power. However, in certain dimensions he is powerless and his mobility is limited without his angelic wings. [BWHAHAHAHA!] He is never without the formidable resources of his brilliant intellect and his unbending will however. Although Lucifer's overt exercises of power are limited in the books, if he is provoked to violence his preference always seems to be to use fire as a weapon. His original role was "God's lamplighter," using his unmatched will to condense clouds of hydrogen into star-masses, and setting them alight. As terrifying as they are brief, battles with Lucifer usually begin (and end) with him drawing down the flames of some superheated star and incinerating to ash anything in the immediate area."

Mephisto creates magical items and effects from nothing at will and whim with his own power at Shift Z rank (or Class 1000 when he's home), and that's not even tapping his Hell-Realm's dimensional energies for the big daddy (Class 3000 - Class 5000) effects. Mephy can create illusions that can even Yellow FEAT to confuse the Living Tribunal, the only being in the Marvel Universe that can permanently destroy him (since Topaz lost her mojo)

He could create a duplicate of DC's Lucifer to fight the actual DC Lucifer with the effort most people exert to hold off a sneeze if he wasn't bored enough with the challenge to let his kid Blackheart smite him while the popcorn was still cooking in the microwave.




Edited 13 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2011 09:32AM by Dead Sidekick.

assuming a shared universe take (as opposed to the "let's just pluck them out of their stories and pit them against each other" route that I intended to imply), and taking into account the established origins of each, then Lucifer isn't the created idea of evil. Lucifer is the Lucifer and Mephisto as the anthropomorhic personification of evil, is the fiction. Mephisto is the "idea", Lucifer is the "fact".

Mephisto, as an idea, would fall under the realm of Dream, and his (Mephisto's) realm as the idea of hell given form would as well. Lucifer is greater than Dream (but not hope, which is a point of discussion that could go on all day...), as stated by Dream himself in his own title. Since the idea of hell (in a judeo-christian sense) is a shadow of the actual hell - which exists on the edge or more likely outside the bounds of God's creation (all dimensions...if you take the approach that Mephisto is the personification of all evil and not a localized manifestation -- would fall under the heading of within God's creation...which Lucifer shaped...), I'm pretty sure its not one of the places Lucifer would be diminished in (and the place he went to where he was "powerless" didn't really affect him anyway...it was his egotistical insistence to respect the rules of the place that made him powerless...). While it's easy to write Mephisto's existance into Lucifer's universe, I suspect its actually impossible to work the situation from the other perspective, keeping Lucifer's established history and power levels in a "Mephisto came first scenerio".

...which is why a shared universe take is not necessarily the best approach, as it will inevitably lead to arguments over which univere's laws take precendence.

however, it really doesn't conflict in either case. Pitting the basic ideas of both characters: The Prince of Lies vs the embodiment of free will and rebellion against predestination is still an interesting story. And even still, if Lucifer is an aspect of Mephisto, he is his will to defy the rule of the One-Above-All made manifest & If Mephisto is a...well, in this context creation doesn't apply...universal reflection of the evil attributed to Lucifer, then DS, you're standard interpretation of a never-ending enduring evil applies...so long as Dream allows it (Lucifer really wouldn't care one way or the other...).

Which makes the battle in essence "is evil stronger than will or does willful action trancend evil even as it creates it?"

edit:
...come to think of it, one could say that Mephisto already exists in the Vertigo landscape.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2011 11:00PM by Brotherless_one.

It does beg the question as to whether or not the supreme maker of both multiverses can be considered the same one if so has Lucifer effectively fallen in all of them and how would two or more of them react to encountering each other?

As far as the MU goes I don't think they've ever had a true instance of Lucifer having been seen, only wannabes like Mephisto and Satannish claiming to be him. Santa Claus has more canonical instances in the MU by far, and a really bad retcon claims an encounter with Jesus by Johnny Blaze was actually Mephisto (shows you how stupidly they handle such things since it required by that logic Mephisto giving Johnny Blaze the information he needed to NOT fall into Mephisto's trap to damn his eternal soul). The only retcon dumber was that Quicksilver faked Lockjaw speaking to prank Ben when the entire point of Lockjaw speaking was to stop Quicksilver from using the Terrigen Mists on his daughter and risking turning her into a hideous mutant, apparently for no other reason than to go back to claiming Lockjaw was just an animal even though he's clearly not an animal and is a mutated Inhuman.

The reference to some attempt on the part of the various earth evils to make a Lucifer isn't really relevant, not like the premise was Mephisto facing off against that and even then he'd have to lose because it was the combined abilities and powers of a range of evil entities, which would make it still greater than Mephisto. Otherwise you get the absurd notion that he was part of making something more powerful than he was and yet it wasn't more powerful even though it was.

Brotherless_one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> assuming a shared universe take (as opposed to the
> "let's just pluck them out of their stories and
> pit them against each other" route that I intended
> to imply), and taking into account the established
> origins of each, then Lucifer isn't the created
> idea of evil. Lucifer is the Lucifer and Mephisto
> as the anthropomorhic personification of evil, is
> the fiction. Mephisto is the "idea", Lucifer is
> the "fact".
>
> Mephisto, as an idea, would fall under the realm
> of Dream, and his (Mephisto's) realm as the idea
> of hell given form would as well. Lucifer is
> greater than Dream (but not hope, which is a point
> of discussion that could go on all day...), as
> stated by Dream himself in his own title. Since
> the idea of hell (in a judeo-christian sense) is a
> shadow of the actual hell - which exists on the
> edge or more likely outside the bounds of God's
> creation (all dimensions...if you take the
> approach that Mephisto is the personification of
> all evil and not a localized manifestation --
> would fall under the heading of within God's
> creation...which Lucifer shaped...), I'm pretty
> sure its not one of the places Lucifer would be
> diminished in (and the place he went to where he
> was "powerless" didn't really affect him
> anyway...it was his egotistical insistence to
> respect the rules of the place that made him
> powerless...). While it's easy to write Mephisto's
> existance into Lucifer's universe, I suspect its
> actually impossible to work the situation from the
> other perspective, keeping Lucifer's established
> history and power levels in a "Mephisto came first
> scenerio".
>
> ...which is why a shared universe take is not
> necessarily the best approach, as it will
> inevitably lead to arguments over which univere's
> laws take precendence.
>
> however, it really doesn't conflict in either
> case. Pitting the basic ideas of both characters:
> The Prince of Lies vs the embodiment of free will
> and rebellion against predestination is still an
> interesting story. And even still, if Lucifer is
> an aspect of Mephisto, he is his will to defy the
> rule of the One-Above-All made manifest & If
> Mephisto is a...well, in this context creation
> doesn't apply...universal reflection of the evil
> attributed to Lucifer, then DS, you're standard
> interpretation of a never-ending enduring evil
> applies...so long as Dream allows it (Lucifer
> really wouldn't care one way or the other...).
>
> Which makes the battle in essence "is evil
> stronger than will or does willful action trancend
> evil even as it creates it?"
>
> edit:
> ...come to think of it, one could say that
> Mephisto already exists in the Vertigo landscape.


I did want to explore the chess game aspect. It would be a chess match. Mephisto rarely uses anything more powerful that a whispered appeal to selfish desires to accomplish his deeds. Rarely dirties his hands at all. Why use your own powers, when others' powers are sufficient?

If your players don't get up from the table and not want to speak to you for weeks if ever again, you're probably not running Mephisto as an NPC correctly.

About the only saving grace (probably a bad pun) I see for DC Lucifer is that in terms of origin, if true, he's is the same being as Marvel's Marduk Kurios (if his origin is true, heh) as well as the other Marvel demons who have played "Satan" (or combined themselves in gestalt form to create "Satan" for purposes of breeding with the natives.

The one ingredient always present in ALL of Marvel demonological gestalt couplings to form "Satan" in the mortal realm to impregnate a human or what have you has been Mephisto. And it's always Mephisto idea to gestalt with others to form this being.

That's what you'd expect from the embodiment of evil (as well as a vampire of it) with the added bonuses of shapeshifting, self-duplication, and time travel at his disposable. Mephisto tends his crops well. He's had a long time to influence the sentients of the Marvel Universe to choose to do things that increase his personal power. Mephisto's been with the company fir a long time. Can you believe the CEO of chaos started in the singing barbershop so many billions of years ago? Mephisto became "His Satanic Majesty" through hard work and sacrifice of everybody else.

Humans take to evil like ducks to water. But the great cosmic joke - so does everyone non-human else in the Marvel Universe with free will. They even choose to deny this fact

Illusion, baby. Unbelievably powerful. Who are you going to believe, the guy with a gun to your head or the imp in his ear telling him how much you deserve to die? So, you get shot and the shooter gets an insanity defense if he doesn't just shoot himself. Mephisto can't change thoughts, but perceptions are his ball park.

I wonder how many Marvel major events were Mephisto subtly guiding superheroes to take out his competition

So then it gets into what tactics DC Lucifer would use to employ and deploy his chesspieces (and who would be his chess pieces) vs. Mephisto's tactics and who he'd subtle along.

Which speaks to Mephisto's advantage, as he is Lucifer (and every other Marvel alien races' personification / reification of metaphysical evil)

You have Mephisto's origins (outside the Marvel Universe as well), a member of a race of demons created to serve Nemesis (of the Ultraverse) who later shattered herself into Marvel's Infinity Gems. Mephisto has been a student of magic longer than the Marvel Universe's Watchers has been around (chronologically speaking) and has had all that time to study up on all things occult. Most of the hidden secrets of the Marvel Multiverse itself are Yellow FEATs for Mephisto's Occult Lore. Heck, Mephisto knows how to distract and decieve bobblehead dolls with multiple universe What If? Tivos. Don't interefere with what, Uatu?

One of the first things on Marvel Earth's Mephisto fed on was the evil from the Demogorge's destruction of the Elder Gods. But he's been around tormenting other worlds a lot longer than that.

Mephisto's existence is tied to the existence of sentient life in the Marvel Universe, and the residual evil energies each of their free will choices make (for ever action there is a equal and opposite reaction). Residual and immanent evil are like Pac-Man power pills for Mephisto. He holds the souls of evil and corrupted dead both as power-ups and bargaining chips with other death gods and such.

I think Mephisto's got Lucifer beat in the subtle manipulation / chess strategy department. He knows the chessboard best, and that advantage would have to apply in a combined universe as well as seperate Marvel / DC turfs.

Accessing the occult lore of the DC Universe would just be a Red FEAT for Mephisto.




Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2011 05:46AM by Dead Sidekick.

Mephisto doesn't originate outside the MU and wasn't created by the original Supreme being, that was just a lie he was telling (and one that failed utterly to matter). He's quite canonically listed as one of the many demonic beings that formed well after Atum eliminated all but a few escaped Elder Gods, developing from the residue of evil once their more powerful existence was removed and the energies had to do something. He's definitely not some grand elder evil older than the Universe Entire and not the prime or first evil.

Meanwhile in the face-off depicted Lucifer is most definitely the creation of the Supreme Being and not some creation of Mephisto.

I just remembered what I woke up thinking about:

Regarding the First of the Fallen: you're talking about a being who could pop up uninvited on the JLA satellite, reach into Superman's chest, pull out his still beating invulnerable heart and bludgeon him to death with it while wearing the cape, cowl and decapitated head of Batman as a hat and wearing the helmet of fate as a condom to skull-@#$%&@* the spectre as he makes the phantom stranger eat his #$&^#@!, in a bid to corrupt, demoralize and shatter the mind of zatanna as part of a minor scheme to openly and blatantly piss off Constantine. And he'd do it all as an afterthought of a passing whim...

(Sorry for the description, mods...but this is a Garth Ennis character we're talking about...)

..That's some serious mojo right there...

When Lucifer fell, he just took hell from him.

Is the First of the Fallen someone who could harm or kill Lucifer? Most certainly. Carrey's series made a point of stating that even as the second most powerful being in creation, Lucifer wasn't completely untouchable. If you consider Marvel's Mephisto analogous to Vertigo's First of the Fallen, then it is perfectly in keeping of the idea of both that he/they have the power to destroy Lucifer. And since its in a demon's nature to scheme and quest for greater power, such an attempt is something that would happen. Or has happened.

Yet the First is someone Lucifer considers a footnote at best and a minor annoyance at worst. He doesn't care about evil or good or heaven or hell. Lucifer does whatever he wants to do, whenever he wants and the only time he doesn't is when he chooses to appear that that isn't the case. Lucifer is not content with being the negative aspect of God's creation and -- in continuation of the actions which led to his "fall" in the first place -- refused to accept that he should should live and rule in hell for all eternity just because God said he had to. He just left (eventually). And when god attempted to manipulate him into exileing himself from from creation he simply made another universe of the non place he was to be exiled to while leaving a huge honking gateway in the middle of LA so he could go back and forth between universes as he chose.

This falls back into aspects of the Thanos vs Mephisto debate, where evil is a consequence of actions and not the source of them. While having the desire to, I don't have the time (or admittedly access to all the resources) to fully debate the notion of evil...but within the confines of our subject matter, we can easily say that "Lucifer as an image/icon/personification of evil" is a reflected fear of Will unbound by considerations of consequence, consent or morality. Lucifer's "evil" is a subjective...although universally so...judgement of his actions. Lucifer is no more bound to or fueled by the concept of evil than...say, Doom was when he held the full power of the beyonder.

...I'm actually writing a monodrama* about the perception of the Devil vs the "character" of Lucifer, which is why I posited this scenerio, so I want to take a moment to thank everyone who is, has or will participate in this discussion.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2011 09:00AM by Brotherless_one.

Well no surprise the DC version of Lucifer at least gave up, I mean he was scripted to lose everything again (his first loss being Heaven and all that held) in the second coming and really who wants to go along with a script like that? Especially when he doesn't get the 'I'll bring you back' promise that Jesus had. Mephisto though is certainly not analogous to the first evil' creatures like Set and Chthon have been around long before he coalesced from the emanations of evil on Earth after the first beings evolved on earth that could feel evil (probably the Deviants since they along with the Eternals were the first known sentients on Earth until humanity truly evolved).

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mephisto doesn't originate outside the MU and
> wasn't created by the original Supreme being, that
> was just a lie he was telling (and one that failed
> utterly to matter). He's quite canonically listed
> as one of the many demonic beings that formed well
> after Atum eliminated all but a few escaped Elder
> Gods, developing from the residue of evil once
> their more powerful existence was removed and the
> energies had to do something. He's definitely not
> some grand elder evil older than the Universe
> Entire and not the prime or first evil.

Marvel Comics disagrees. It's canon now that Mephisto came from the Ultraverse.

Even so, Mephisto's not above pulling off illusion / time travel / shapeshifting combos to stack the game in his favor in ANY universe.


> Meanwhile in the face-off depicted Lucifer is most
> definitely the creation of the Supreme Being and
> not some creation of Mephisto.

Agreed. But Mephisto is also the creation of an alternate form of the Supreme Being from another universe, one that became ther Infinity Gems. The only real difference (and perhaps significant diffference) was that DC Lucifer was created with his powers and Marvel Mephisto has acquired his powers over eons.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2011 10:35AM by Dead Sidekick.

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marvel Comics disagrees. It's canon now that
> Mephisto came from the Ultraverse.

Sorry but nothing I've ever seen out of Marvel has ever supported that, even their website maintains he's a standard class 2 demon and no relation to the Ultraverse. Which is quite understandable since once Marvel bought and gutted their competitor they've done nothing to acknowledge the Ultraverse since and certainly no reason they'd go linking mephisto to it.

> Even so, Mephisto's not above pulling off illusion
> / time travel / shapeshifting combos to stack the
> game in his favor in ANY universe.

Except he can't really time travel, if he could he'd be pretty much unbeatable knowing what everyone would possibly do and he's clearly never been shown having that kind of information available to him.


> Agreed. But Mephisto is also the creation of an
> alternate form of the Supreme Being from another
> universe, one that became ther Infinity Gems. The
> only real difference (and perhaps significant
> diffference) was that DC Lucifer was created with
> his powers and Marvel Mephisto has acquired his
> powers over eons.

Except Mephisto isn't said creation, that was just a lie he told to try and trick Thanos into letting him 'help' the Titan master the Infinity Gauntlet claiming he knew tricks and secrets about it (which is an obvious lie since there's no way he could have seen the previous Supreme Being using the gauntlet since it didn't exist nor did the Infinity Gems until AFTER his Cosmic Suicide). At which point Thanos totally owned Mephisto after Mephisto thought he'd trick Thanos into reading all minds in the universe simultaneously and was sure it'd shut down Thanos' mind from the overload long enough to steal the Gauntlet. Instead he found himself being quickly strangled and Thanos going 'surely you didn't think such a transparent ruse would work on ME did you?'.

DC Lucifer obviously exceeds Mephisto, while scale conversions can occur between the universes they aren't going to help give Mephisto an edge or real chance. However much you love the character he's not unbeatable and has been taken down a number of times despite his best efforts (Franklin Richards having done so on several occasions) and the 'true' Lucifer is an evil and power well beyond what even Mephisto can grasp.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dead Sidekick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Marvel Comics disagrees. It's canon now that
> > Mephisto came from the Ultraverse.
>
> Sorry but nothing I've ever seen out of Marvel has
> ever supported that, even their website maintains
> he's a standard class 2 demon and no relation to
> the Ultraverse. Which is quite understandable
> since once Marvel bought and gutted their
> competitor they've done nothing to acknowledge the
> Ultraverse since and certainly no reason they'd go
> linking mephisto to it.

Note the first paragraph of Marvel's own published encyclopedia entry on Mephy [as horse's month canonical as it gets]



How did Mephisto "gain universal power and influence by affiliating with a demon race created at the universe's dawn by Nemesis (who later became the Infinity Gems)" if he wasn't around at the dawn of the universe? [Those demons, btw, are the "Vril." Mephy's Demon Elite, brought to Earth by the Nazis after Mephisto decieved one named Thule.]

The "Elder Gods" are obviously much younger than Mephisto.

Also note that Marvel's Lucifer is a "rival Hell-Lord."

A rival, but not THE top dog in Hell-Lord circles, which everyone knows is Mephisto.

And, stepping out of the Marvel Universe and into real world gnostic Christian, rabbinical Judaic, and even some pagan beliefs, "Lucifer" and "Satan" aren't even the same being.

Which is the case in Marvel Comics as well.



> > Even so, Mephisto's not above pulling off
> illusion
> > / time travel / shapeshifting combos to stack
> the
> > game in his favor in ANY universe.
>
> Except he can't really time travel, if he could
> he'd be pretty much unbeatable knowing what
> everyone would possibly do and he's clearly never
> been shown having that kind of information
> available to him.

Mephisto IS unbeatable, at least to 99.99999% of what the Marvel Universe could muster against him. He can be setback and delayed, even inconvenienced at times. But there has only been two threats to his existence. Topaz's soul, which she no longer possesses and it is indeed destroyed, and the Living Tribunal. The only permanent defeat he can or will face is when the One Above All instructs the Living Tribunal to bring final judgment upon the universe. That day will come, and Mephisto knows that day. It ain't today. Do you know what Mephisto loves about the Living Tribunal the most? The fact that he has three noses to tweak.

Mephisto certainly can time travel. He's even powered-up from all of the evil in an alternate timeline universe (leaving it an idyllic place of good) just to pull off some over-the-top effects in another timeline universe. Spider-Man One More Day was brought about by time travel. Mephy jumped back in time, caused a villian to be powerful enough to make Spidey late for his own wedding, and the butterfly effect on the timeline rippled from there.


>
> > Agreed. But Mephisto is also the creation of an
> > alternate form of the Supreme Being from
> another
> > universe, one that became ther Infinity Gems.
> The
> > only real difference (and perhaps significant
> > diffference) was that DC Lucifer was created
> with
> > his powers and Marvel Mephisto has acquired his
> > powers over eons.
>
> Except Mephisto isn't said creation, that was just
> a lie he told to try and trick Thanos into letting
> him 'help' the Titan master the Infinity Gauntlet
> claiming he knew tricks and secrets about it
> (which is an obvious lie since there's no way he
> could have seen the previous Supreme Being using
> the gauntlet since it didn't exist nor did the
> Infinity Gems until AFTER his Cosmic Suicide). At
> which point Thanos totally owned Mephisto after
> Mephisto thought he'd trick Thanos into reading
> all minds in the universe simultaneously and was
> sure it'd shut down Thanos' mind from the overload
> long enough to steal the Gauntlet. Instead he
> found himself being quickly strangled and Thanos
> going 'surely you didn't think such a transparent
> ruse would work on ME did you?'.

Mephy's just gotta love Thanos. Nobody commits the sin of pride like that impotent gorilla in a hockey helmet.

> DC Lucifer obviously exceeds Mephisto, while scale
> conversions can occur between the universes they
> aren't going to help give Mephisto an edge or real
> chance. However much you love the character he's
> not unbeatable and has been taken down a number of
> times despite his best efforts (Franklin Richards
> having done so on several occasions) and the
> 'true' Lucifer is an evil and power well beyond
> what even Mephisto can grasp.

Sure he grasps it. Except when he's tormenting Skrulls with their own personification of evil myths instead.




Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2011 04:16PM by Dead Sidekick.

*laughs* Says right there in the first paragraph Mephisto coalesced from the leftover primal energies shaped by human belief and LONG after Atum eliminated the original Elder Gods, so the very page you post copy of directly contradicts your claims Mephisto is some elder evil around longer than the universe. He's a newborn wannabe compared to all the real elder evils in the MU and the various cosmic powers. The stuff with the Nemesis gem isn't even treated as Canon in the MU and not surprising since it introduced an element that was clearly tacked on, since an entity committing cosmic suicide wasn't likely to leave behind its mind which was the entire point of suiciding in the first place.

Mephisto does get beaten in the MU, Daredevil beat him in his own domain just by remaining pure (and which makes his being turned into a monster in latest writings just a horrible mockery of his heroic resolve and devotion to good shown then, as once again Marvel displayed its 'we refuse to accept the idea anyone can ever really be good because we feel the world is crap'). Thanos has beaten him plenty of times and no matter how much you want to claim otherwise that's not the reality of things for Mephisto in the MU, and as far as Marvel goes the Lucifer listed is not the Lucifer of the Bible just as Mephisto isn't the biblical demon Mephistopheles, they're just demons who adopted the names to cash in on the human recognition factor which is also explicitly noted in such articles.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *laughs* Says right there in the first paragraph
> Mephisto coalesced from the leftover primal
> energies shaped by human belief and LONG after
> Atum eliminated the original Elder Gods, so the
> very page you post copy of directly contradicts
> your claims Mephisto is some elder evil around
> longer than the universe. He's a newborn wannabe
> compared to all the real elder evils in the MU and
> the various cosmic powers. The stuff with the
> Nemesis gem isn't even treated as Canon in the MU
> and not surprising since it introduced an element
> that was clearly tacked on, since an entity
> committing cosmic suicide wasn't likely to leave
> behind its mind which was the entire point of
> suiciding in the first place.

The Ultraverse is treated as Marvel Multiverse canon, in so much as it's even assigned an Earth-number (Earth-93060). Just as canonical as the various incarnations of Squadrons Supreme from their various alternate universes. Even the Exiles was first an intercompany Marvel - Ultraverse crossover. The Ultraverse is part of Marvel now, and cross-pollenization from each other has happened, This isn't the first time this has happened. The Serpent Crown of Set remains in the Marvel Multiverse despite Marvel no long having the license for Conan the Barbarian, for example.

As far as "wannabe" Elder God, that would be wannabe the entity trapped inside a mountain that can't intereact with the mortal realm unless someone picks up a book he mostly didn't write, or wannabe the entity that can't interact with the mortal realm unless someone puts on his snakey hat?

Puh-lease.

Mephisto came along and formed his physical manifestation(s) from their evil residue the same way he created Blackheat from the evil residue of a small town with a history of violent murders. He was there when Nemesis "suicided" herself in the Ultraverse. He's older than the "Elder" Gods.



> Mephisto does get beaten in the MU, Daredevil beat
> him in his own domain just by remaining pure (and
> which makes his being turned into a monster in
> latest writings just a horrible mockery of his
> heroic resolve and devotion to good shown then, as
> once again Marvel displayed its 'we refuse to
> accept the idea anyone can ever really be good
> because we feel the world is crap').

The Age of Mephisto is cool, innit? All this time you thought Daredevil won. You just weren't patient enough to see the plan come together



Thanos has
> beaten him plenty of times and no matter how much
> you want to claim otherwise that's not the reality
> of things for Mephisto in the MU

Thanos who? Purple gorilla in a hockey helmet? One of Mephisto's favorite pawns. Sort of like Hela, but more lippy.


, and as far as
> Marvel goes the Lucifer listed is not the Lucifer
> of the Bible just as Mephisto isn't the biblical
> demon Mephistopheles, they're just demons who
> adopted the names to cash in on the human
> recognition factor which is also explicitly noted
> in such articles.

Exactly. all of the "religious" names given for Marvel's demons are ruses, created by Mephisto for various reasons. Mephisto's just a bit more keen on appearing as the Satan-archetype for all sentient races in the Marvel Universe, not just those of Marvel Earth.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 03:34AM by Dead Sidekick.

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightmask Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > *laughs* Says right there in the first
> paragraph
> > Mephisto coalesced from the leftover primal
> > energies shaped by human belief and LONG after
> > Atum eliminated the original Elder Gods, so the
> > very page you post copy of directly contradicts
> > your claims Mephisto is some elder evil around
> > longer than the universe. He's a newborn
> wannabe
> > compared to all the real elder evils in the MU
> and
> > the various cosmic powers. The stuff with the
> > Nemesis gem isn't even treated as Canon in the
> MU
> > and not surprising since it introduced an
> element
> > that was clearly tacked on, since an entity
> > committing cosmic suicide wasn't likely to
> leave
> > behind its mind which was the entire point of
> > suiciding in the first place.
>
> The Ultraverse is treated as Marvel Multiverse
> canon, in so much as it's even assigned an
> Earth-number (Earth-93060). Just as canonical as
> the various incarnations of Squadrons Supreme from
> their various alternate universes. Even the Exiles
> was first an intercompany Marvel - Ultraverse
> crossover. The Ultraverse is part of Marvel now,
> and cross-pollenization from each other has
> happened, This isn't the first time this has
> happened. The Serpent Crown of Set remains in the
> Marvel Multiverse despite Marvel no long having
> the license for Conan the Barbarian, for example.
>
>
> As far as "wannabe" Elder God, that would be
> wannabe the entity trapped inside a mountain that
> can't intereact with the mortal realm unless
> someone picks up a book he mostly didn't write, or
> wannabe the entity that can't interact with the
> mortal realm unless someone puts on his snakey
> hat?
>
> Puh-lease.
>
> Mephisto came along and formed his physical
> manifestation(s) from their evil residue the same
> way he created Blackheat from the evil residue of
> a small town with a history of violent murders. He
> was there when Nemesis "suicided" herself in the
> Ultraverse. He's older than the "Elder" Gods.

He's right though. You've directly contradicted the source you use to support your claim. Though he could concievably interact, associate and/or command the demons from the ultraverse, he cannot be one of them if he and his brethren were produced from the primeval engergies shed from the demogorge after he destroyed the degenerate elder gods...which is what the entry says. If "horse's month = canonical as it gets", then your assertion cannot be supported.

Also, affiliation isn't equal to membership...if you affiliate with lots of women, that doesn't make you a chick...chick magnet maybe, but...

Brotherless_one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He's right though. You've directly contradicted
> the source you use to support your claim. Though
> he could concievably interact, associate and/or
> command the demons from the ultraverse, he cannot
> be one of them if he and his brethren were
> produced from the primeval engergies shed from the
> demogorge after he destroyed the degenerate elder
> gods...which is what the entry says. If "horse's
> month = canonical as it gets", then your assertion
> cannot be supported.

That doesn't make sense with the facts that:

a) Mephisto is weaker (slightly) on the mortal plane than when he's got home field advantage in his Hell-Realm

b) the presence / proximity of evil empowers him

c) Mephisto has no "true" form, all of his appearances are illusory, contrived, and shapeshifty (why send yourself, when a telepresent manifestation / illusion / solid hologram that can fool the Living Tribunal will do?)

d) Mephisto has acquired his vast powers through study and mastery of collected souls and knowledge over time, including the minor boost he got from Elder God energy residue from a backwater planet in the Sol System.

e) he was around to affiliate with Nemesis' demons at the dawn of time

f) just as he served Nemesis, he had to serve whoever's got all of the Infinity Gems gathered together [but not anymore as they don't work together anymore except in the Ultraverse]

Mephisto is not from the physical, mortal Marvel Universe, proper. He's just gathering the easy-pickings of power from the evil there, like an all the souls you can eat salad bar.

>
> Also, affiliation isn't equal to membership...if
> you affiliate with lots of women, that doesn't
> make you a chick...chick magnet maybe, but...

see e) and f) above.

Mephisto guided that dopey purple gorilla in a hockey helmet to gather six of the SEVEN Infinity Gems together (leaving out the detail of the lost Ego Gem in the Ultraverse) in order to acquire them for himself, and failing that, led events along so that the Living Tribunal ruled that the Infinity Gems could no longer work in conjunction with each other (i.e. another threat to Mephisto neutralized).

Mephisto is one conniving, manipulative sonuvabitch, ain't he?

Mephisto never loses. Everything is going precisely according to his long-range, bigger picture plan. The Age of Mephisto has been coming for a long time.








Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 11:14AM by Dead Sidekick.

Brotherless_one Wrote:
> He's right though. You've directly contradicted
> the source you use to support your claim. Though
> he could concievably interact, associate and/or
> command the demons from the ultraverse, he cannot
> be one of them if he and his brethren were
> produced from the primeval engergies shed from the
> demogorge after he destroyed the degenerate elder
> gods...which is what the entry says. If "horse's
> month = canonical as it gets", then your assertion
> cannot be supported.
>
> Also, affiliation isn't equal to membership...if
> you affiliate with lots of women, that doesn't
> make you a chick...chick magnet maybe, but...

I think we're at the point as always happen when Mephisto is brought up, DS asserting wildly contradictory things and presenting things that actually contradict his assertions and claiming it supports it instead because it's Mephisto and that's his 'must be unbeatable and no one could ever be better than and is really God' character, like Batman. No rational discussion can continue to occur because no matter what's shown canonically for Mephisto and what's shown for DC's Lucifer DS will handwave away everything that backs Lucifer and do the same with anything that presents Mephisto as weaker.

In the end Mephisto can't win because like with Thanos there is nothing Mephisto can really offer Lucifer to try and trick him or outright beat him and as has been shown Lucifer can and has walked away from other 'games' when he got tired of them which ends up a victory in the end.

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Ultraverse is treated as Marvel Multiverse
> canon, in so much as it's even assigned an
> Earth-number (Earth-93060). Just as canonical as
> the various incarnations of Squadrons Supreme from
> their various alternate universes. Even the Exiles
> was first an intercompany Marvel - Ultraverse
> crossover. The Ultraverse is part of Marvel now,
> and cross-pollenization from each other has
> happened, This isn't the first time this has
> happened. The Serpent Crown of Set remains in the
> Marvel Multiverse despite Marvel no long having
> the license for Conan the Barbarian, for example.

Which at no point makes Mephisto a creation of the Ultraverse once it became a marvel product, and your own posted page on Mephisto says you're wrong and presenting what you want as canon. There's a world of difference between rejecting canon and presenting your own fanon desires as if they were canon. Mephisto=puny class two demon formed from Elder God Residue, Mephisto >=< Nigh-Omnipotent elder god older than the universe itself and forged by the original Supreme Being.

> As far as "wannabe" Elder God, that would be
> wannabe the entity trapped inside a mountain that
> can't intereact with the mortal realm unless
> someone picks up a book he mostly didn't write, or
> wannabe the entity that can't interact with the
> mortal realm unless someone puts on his snakey
> hat?
>
> Puh-lease.

Elder Gods who had millenia of wizards, some backed by other powers like the Vishanti, casting spells to make their entry as difficult as possible into the mortal realm and at least one of them (Chthon) listed as being so powerful canonically that he requires a massive rift to even let him get back because he's so incredibly powerful. Mephisto's already limited in what he can do in the material world and his ties to the energies of evil that the Elder Gods didn't have since Mephisto's just food for them gives him a tie to the physical world the Elder Gods didn't have.

> Mephisto came along and formed his physical
> manifestation(s) from their evil residue the same
> way he created Blackheat from the evil residue of
> a small town with a history of violent murders. He
> was there when Nemesis "suicided" herself in the
> Ultraverse. He's older than the "Elder" Gods.

No, just no. Primordial energy residue=>mephisto/sattanish/etc and most assuredly NOT Supreme Being=>Mephisto=>Primordial energies. Mephisto's an infant compared to the majority of powers in the universe, a powerful one but still an infant, your own posted fact sheet proves that.

> The Age of Mephisto is cool, innit? All this time
> you thought Daredevil won. You just weren't
> patient enough to see the plan come together

Daredevil one, than a bad writer ripped his victory away for the angsty lutz.

> Thanos who? Purple gorilla in a hockey helmet? One
> of Mephisto's favorite pawns. Sort of like Hela,
> but more lippy.

Right, just as much a pawn as Death is. That's sarcasm btw in case you missed it. Thanos has always owned Mephisto, and rightly so because Thanos exists outside the rules and there is nothing Mephisto can offer to Thanos that Thanos could ever want. Just as Mephisto had NOTHING at all to do with Thanos going after the Infinity Gems, because Thanos was in Death's realm and learned of their full power in the Infinity Well and sought them for that reason. Plus of course Mephisto had to serve the wielder of the Gauntlet, it gave mastery over everything in the MU from the smallest atom to the most powerful of cosmic entities like Eternity and Death. No piddly little demon from a backwater like Earth is going to be immune to its mastery.

For the sake of accuracy it was Loki who gathered the Infinity Gems in the Ultraverse after they were scattered their by Rune, and he was tempted by someone being controlled by that Nemesis gem to gather it as well. We only know the gem claimed to be part of the Supreme Being, given Thanos never saw seven gems as part of a whole in the Well it's more likely it was just lying and seeking supreme power. So there's no really valid reason to accept the idea that the Nemesis Gem was part of the Infinity Gems, just as all the history of MU shows Mephisto isn't said Supreme Being's Creation and instead is a newbie power who constantly lies to himself that he's more powerful than he really is. He certainly wasn't in the Ultraverse when four of the gems ripped the Nemesis Gem apart and gained physical form (which given the gems aren't humanoid anymore and haven't been shown such outside their Ultraverse appearance more support for the fact that the Ultraverse's IG crossovers in the end aren't canon).

> Exactly. all of the "religious" names given for
> Marvel's demons are ruses, created by Mephisto for
> various reasons. Mephisto's just a bit more keen
> on appearing as the Satan-archetype for all
> sentient races in the Marvel Universe, not just
> those of Marvel Earth.

*laughs* Even as the entry states that the demons have usurped names from the Christian bible and other places to pretend to be the evils written there to cash in on the belief you state the exact opposite of what's in the entry. Please, we know Mephisto isn't gaining power from evil all over the MU, he's only tapping into the evil on Earth which is understandable what with his having been BORN their somewhere in the last 20,000 years or so as sentient life and evil arose on Earth.

Mephisto loses, he loses alot. He's lost time and time again in his ploys to get the Silver Surfer's soul, he lost to Daredevil, he's lost to Thanos, he's lost to Johnny Blaze. He's not unbeatable and he has been beaten and it's just fanwank to try and claim 'no no those were all planned by him and he never lost at all!'. He lost, just accept it. If he actually won he'd be Supreme Being over the MU now and he's not, because for all his grandiose schemes he's always lost on those grand attempts. Sure he wins alot of victories against the average sort of soul but he does not win against these grander sorts, indeed he must lose with any victories being seen in what-ifs (such as his corruption and final destruction of the Daniel Ketch Ghost Rider).