Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brotherless_one Wrote:
> > He's right though. You've directly contradicted
> > the source you use to support your claim.
> Though
> > he could concievably interact, associate and/or
> > command the demons from the ultraverse, he
> cannot
> > be one of them if he and his brethren were
> > produced from the primeval engergies shed from
> the
> > demogorge after he destroyed the degenerate
> elder
> > gods...which is what the entry says. If
> "horse's
> > month = canonical as it gets", then your
> assertion
> > cannot be supported.
> >
> > Also, affiliation isn't equal to
> membership...if
> > you affiliate with lots of women, that doesn't
> > make you a chick...chick magnet maybe, but...
>
> I think we're at the point as always happen when
> Mephisto is brought up, DS asserting wildly
> contradictory things and presenting things that
> actually contradict his assertions and claiming it
> supports it instead because it's Mephisto and
> that's his 'must be unbeatable and no one could
> ever be better than and is really God' character,
> like Batman. No rational discussion can continue
> to occur because no matter what's shown
> canonically for Mephisto and what's shown for DC's
> Lucifer DS will handwave away everything that
> backs Lucifer and do the same with anything that
> presents Mephisto as weaker.

I haven't hand-waved away anything about DC Lucifer save for the fact that if his given origin is "true," then superimposed onto Marvel cosmology he's a relatively recent comer millions of years after even Chthon started studying dark magic. (which was a mere 3,499,993,985 years ago, to be precise)

Mephisto was around BILLIONS of years well before even that, by given Marvel canon, and when he wasn't capitalizing on chronologically recent human metaphysical fears of "Satan." (because the proto-Judeo-Christian beliefs that defined "Satan" wasn't even around yet until some 6,000 years ago), he was capitalizing on human (and other sentient races around the universe) fears of some other metaphysical evil boogeyman mythos.


> In the end Mephisto can't win because like with
> Thanos there is nothing Mephisto can really offer
> Lucifer to try and trick him or outright beat him
> and as has been shown Lucifer can and has walked
> away from other 'games' when he got tired of them
> which ends up a victory in the end.

From what I've seen of DC Lucifer, he's rather unaware that the DC Universe contains any extraterrestrial sentient races with their own theological progressions. He's content with the low-hanging fruit of human evil inclinations. He couldn't even stop Superman from taking over DC Hell.

On the other hand, Mephisto's ILLUSIONS were powerful enough to make the Living Tribunal try to tut-tut him and get laughed at for crying foul.

I give "the Devil" his due. He's a nice Halloween party mask for Mephisto.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 04:06PM by Dead Sidekick.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dead Sidekick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Ultraverse is treated as Marvel Multiverse
> > canon, in so much as it's even assigned an
> > Earth-number (Earth-93060). Just as canonical
> as
> > the various incarnations of Squadrons Supreme
> from
> > their various alternate universes. Even the
> Exiles
> > was first an intercompany Marvel - Ultraverse
> > crossover. The Ultraverse is part of Marvel
> now,
> > and cross-pollenization from each other has
> > happened, This isn't the first time this has
> > happened. The Serpent Crown of Set remains in
> the
> > Marvel Multiverse despite Marvel no long having
> > the license for Conan the Barbarian, for
> example.
>
> Which at no point makes Mephisto a creation of the
> Ultraverse once it became a marvel product, and
> your own posted page on Mephisto says you're wrong
> and presenting what you want as canon. There's a
> world of difference between rejecting canon and
> presenting your own fanon desires as if they were
> canon. Mephisto=puny class two demon formed from
> Elder God Residue, Mephisto >=< Nigh-Omnipotent
> elder god older than the universe itself and
> forged by the original Supreme Being.

I didn't post scans of the entire official Mephisto entry (it's six pages long) but I shouldn't have to. [It will be part of my coming "Let's Stat Mephisto" project updated with recent history and displays of power including OMD, which will be as thoroughly sorted and worked as my Superman stats]

Your argument crumbles when you ignore Marvel's own explanation of "class one demon, class two demon, etc." It;s not a sorting by power. There are "Class One" demons Mephisto would absolutely stomp to death without exerting even a fraction of the effort required to raise his eyebrow at them.


> > As far as "wannabe" Elder God, that would be
> > wannabe the entity trapped inside a mountain
> that
> > can't intereact with the mortal realm unless
> > someone picks up a book he mostly didn't write,
> or
> > wannabe the entity that can't interact with the
> > mortal realm unless someone puts on his snakey
> > hat?
> >
> > Puh-lease.
>
> Elder Gods who had millenia of wizards, some
> backed by other powers like the Vishanti, casting
> spells to make their entry as difficult as
> possible into the mortal realm and at least one of
> them (Chthon) listed as being so powerful
> canonically that he requires a massive rift to
> even let him get back because he's so incredibly
> powerful. Mephisto's already limited in what he
> can do in the material world and his ties to the
> energies of evil that the Elder Gods didn't have
> since Mephisto's just food for them gives him a
> tie to the physical world the Elder Gods didn't
> have.

If Mephisto is just "food" for the local "Elder Gods" of a planet in a backwater star system that wasn't even formed yet when he was born, then what's stopping them from doing so? When's Chthon going to get out of the ol' "we mortals bond you to a mountain because you're a poseur" trick?

I'd understand your dismissal if you were comparing Mephisto to some omnipotent Shuma-Gorath or some other Lovecraftian-esque cosmic horror, but you're not.


> > Mephisto came along and formed his physical
> > manifestation(s) from their evil residue the
> same
> > way he created Blackheat from the evil residue
> of
> > a small town with a history of violent murders.
> He
> > was there when Nemesis "suicided" herself in
> the
> > Ultraverse. He's older than the "Elder" Gods.
>
>
> No, just no. Primordial energy
> residue=>mephisto/sattanish/etc and most assuredly
> NOT Supreme Being=>Mephisto=>Primordial energies.
> Mephisto's an infant compared to the majority of
> powers in the universe, a powerful one but still
> an infant, your own posted fact sheet proves
> that.

Not if you read the entire entry, and are familiar with the 40+ years of Mephisto's published exploits. The pattern is very clear. Mephy got a power up from the formation of demons from Elder God residue, just like he got a power up from being near the Dire Wraith homeworld, just like he gets a power up anytime a significant level of evil is concentrated somewhere.


> > The Age of Mephisto is cool, innit? All this
> time
> > you thought Daredevil won. You just weren't
> > patient enough to see the plan come together
>
> Daredevil one, than a bad writer ripped his
> victory away for the angsty lutz.

So you admit you're the one cherry-picking and choosing what's canon and fanwanking, not me.


> > Thanos who? Purple gorilla in a hockey helmet?
> One
> > of Mephisto's favorite pawns. Sort of like
> Hela,
> > but more lippy.
>
> Right, just as much a pawn as Death is. That's
> sarcasm btw in case you missed it. Thanos has
> always owned Mephisto, and rightly so because
> Thanos exists outside the rules and there is
> nothing Mephisto can offer to Thanos that Thanos
> could ever want. Just as Mephisto had NOTHING at
> all to do with Thanos going after the Infinity
> Gems, because Thanos was in Death's realm and
> learned of their full power in the Infinity Well
> and sought them for that reason. Plus of course
> Mephisto had to serve the wielder of the Gauntlet,
> it gave mastery over everything in the MU from the
> smallest atom to the most powerful of cosmic
> entities like Eternity and Death. No piddly
> little demon from a backwater like Earth is going
> to be immune to its mastery.

Mephisto can [and has] created illusions that have fooled even the Living Tribunal, and your case is built on what a gorilla in a hockey helmet thought he saw in Death's scrying pool?


> For the sake of accuracy it was Loki who gathered
> the Infinity Gems in the Ultraverse after they
> were scattered their by Rune, and he was tempted
> by someone being controlled by that Nemesis gem to
> gather it as well. We only know the gem claimed
> to be part of the Supreme Being, given Thanos
> never saw seven gems as part of a whole in the
> Well it's more likely it was just lying and
> seeking supreme power. So there's no really valid
> reason to accept the idea that the Nemesis Gem was
> part of the Infinity Gems, just as all the history
> of MU shows Mephisto isn't said Supreme Being's
> Creation and instead is a newbie power who
> constantly lies to himself that he's more powerful
> than he really is. He certainly wasn't in the
> Ultraverse when four of the gems ripped the
> Nemesis Gem apart and gained physical form (which
> given the gems aren't humanoid anymore and haven't
> been shown such outside their Ultraverse
> appearance more support for the fact that the
> Ultraverse's IG crossovers in the end aren't
> canon).

What's published is canon, no matter how far you stick your fingers in your ears and sing "lalalalala."

Captain America and Bucky prepared to battle the Nazis by dressing up like girls. Deal with it.

Until an abrogational retcon or new material replaces "what happened." the addition of Mephisto as created servant of the Ultraverse's Nemesis stands.

> > Exactly. all of the "religious" names given for
> > Marvel's demons are ruses, created by Mephisto
> for
> > various reasons. Mephisto's just a bit more
> keen
> > on appearing as the Satan-archetype for all
> > sentient races in the Marvel Universe, not just
> > those of Marvel Earth.
>
> *laughs* Even as the entry states that the demons
> have usurped names from the Christian bible and
> other places to pretend to be the evils written
> there to cash in on the belief you state the exact
> opposite of what's in the entry. Please, we know
> Mephisto isn't gaining power from evil all over
> the MU, he's only tapping into the evil on Earth
> which is understandable what with his having been
> BORN their somewhere in the last 20,000 years or
> so as sentient life and evil arose on Earth.

We're just going to have agree to disagree whether or not that published Marvel continuity is more persuasive than Nightmask continuity.


> Mephisto loses, he loses alot. He's lost time and
> time again in his ploys to get the Silver Surfer's
> soul, he lost to Daredevil, he's lost to Thanos,
> he's lost to Johnny Blaze. He's not unbeatable
> and he has been beaten and it's just fanwank to
> try and claim 'no no those were all planned by him
> and he never lost at all!'. He lost, just accept
> it. If he actually won he'd be Supreme Being over
> the MU now and he's not, because for all his
> grandiose schemes he's always lost on those grand
> attempts. Sure he wins alot of victories against
> the average sort of soul but he does not win
> against these grander sorts, indeed he must lose
> with any victories being seen in what-ifs (such as
> his corruption and final destruction of the Daniel
> Ketch Ghost Rider).

Surely you can name a "grandiose scheme" of Mephisto's that didn't ultimately work out in his favor.

Beyonder? Gone... degraded.

Infinity Gauntlet? Gone... dismantled... permanently non-integrational.

Topaz's soul? Removed and destroyed.

And so on.

Dead Sidekick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That doesn't make sense with the facts that:
>
> a) Mephisto is weaker (slightly) on the mortal
> plane than when he's got home field advantage in
> his Hell-Realm
>
> b) the presence / proximity of evil empowers him
>
> c) Mephisto has no "true" form, all of his
> appearances are illusory, contrived, and
> shapeshifty (why send yourself, when a telepresent
> manifestation / illusion / solid hologram that can
> fool the Living Tribunal will do?)
>
> d) Mephisto has acquired his vast powers through
> study and mastery of collected souls and knowledge
> over time, including the minor boost he got from
> Elder God energy residue from a backwater planet
> in the Sol System.
>
> e) he was around to affiliate with Nemesis' demons
> at the dawn of time
>
> f) just as he served Nemesis, he had to serve
> whoever's got all of the Infinity Gems gathered
> together
>
> Mephisto is not from the physical, mortal Marvel
> Universe, proper. He's just gathering the
> easy-pickings of power from the evil there, like
> an all the souls you can eat salad bar.
>
> >
> > Also, affiliation isn't equal to
> membership...if
> > you affiliate with lots of women, that doesn't
> > make you a chick...chick magnet maybe, but...
>
> see e) and f) above.
>
> Mephisto guided that dopey purple gorilla in a
> hockey helmet to gather six of the SEVEN Infinity
> Gems together (leaving out the detail of the lost
> Ego Gem in the Ultraverse) in order to acquire
> them for himself, and failing that, led events
> along so that the Living Tribunal ruled that the
> Infinity Gems could no longer work in conjunction
> with each other (i.e. another threat to Mephisto
> neutralized).
>
> Mephisto is one conniving, manipulative
> sonuvabitch, ain't he?
>
> Mephisto never loses. Everything is going
> precisely according to his long-range, bigger
> picture plan. The Age of Mephisto has been coming
> for a long time.
>



I'm not arguing that a case can't be made from what you're saying, just that the evidence presented doesn't support it. The evidence also contradicts itself or, at the very least, questions its own validity. I quote:

"In addition, Mephisto apparently (my emphasis) gained universal power and influence by affiliating with a demon race..." etc.

So...are they not sure that he did? Is it something they just heard around the water cooler 5 minutes before writing the entry or what? When YOU say something to that effect, I may still independently research it but -- knowing the depth of research you put into your character analysis-- I assume there's something out there that lends weight to what you're saying. But if someone works for a company (that hasn't rebooted its continuity like 20 times in my lifetime) and doesn't know whether something happened or not, I have to assume that its not considered cannon.

There's also two things that makes...no, three things that makes Mephisto's claim...literally as it came out of his mouth...suspect.

1. When an omnipotent being...regardless of how simple minded it is...destroys something, it doesn't reform on its own. Otherwise, its just potent.

2. If what he said is true, then it's true for every other hell lord that reformed...which means he's not unique, his knowledge or relationship to the gems is not special and -- aside from either of those -- he existed as nothing for billions of years, then reformed a bunch of thousands of years ago and had no idea of any of that information until the gems were brought together.

3. Thanos was smiling while he told the story...

and, moving away from those few panels in SS #45
4. If HE was one of those demons and they were destroyed, how can they work for him now?

If the story don't fit, you must acquit.

hehe...I'm going to play Mephisto for a sec..."Of course I knew there was a seventh infinity gems. Its written even in the children's books of occult lore: Seven days of creation, lucky number 7...the "I Am", hidden in plain sight..."

...seriously though, that's a nice touch to the mythos but its still kind of pointless. Oh...yeah, sorry. I'm off on a tangent here...but a seventh gem is pointless. If either Mind and Soul don't provide mastery of Ego, ego's really not necessary. Ego is what controls the gems in the first place, so Warlock, Thanos, Nebula...there were all the seventh gem. Toss the actual seventh in and you get someone that is not you controlling you and the other 6 gems...that's just silly...

...anyway...everyone knows Sise-neg created the universe anyway...and Mordo's the devil...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 04:43PM by Brotherless_one.

Brotherless_one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dead Sidekick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That doesn't make sense with the facts that:
> >
> > a) Mephisto is weaker (slightly) on the mortal
> > plane than when he's got home field advantage
> in
> > his Hell-Realm
> >
> > b) the presence / proximity of evil empowers
> him
> >
> > c) Mephisto has no "true" form, all of his
> > appearances are illusory, contrived, and
> > shapeshifty (why send yourself, when a
> telepresent
> > manifestation / illusion / solid hologram that
> can
> > fool the Living Tribunal will do?)
> >
> > d) Mephisto has acquired his vast powers
> through
> > study and mastery of collected souls and
> knowledge
> > over time, including the minor boost he got
> from
> > Elder God energy residue from a backwater
> planet
> > in the Sol System.
> >
> > e) he was around to affiliate with Nemesis'
> demons
> > at the dawn of time
> >
> > f) just as he served Nemesis, he had to serve
> > whoever's got all of the Infinity Gems gathered
> > together
> >
> > Mephisto is not from the physical, mortal
> Marvel
> > Universe, proper. He's just gathering the
> > easy-pickings of power from the evil there,
> like
> > an all the souls you can eat salad bar.
> >
> > >
> > > Also, affiliation isn't equal to
> > membership...if
> > > you affiliate with lots of women, that
> doesn't
> > > make you a chick...chick magnet maybe, but...
> >
> > see e) and f) above.
> >
> > Mephisto guided that dopey purple gorilla in a
> > hockey helmet to gather six of the SEVEN
> Infinity
> > Gems together (leaving out the detail of the
> lost
> > Ego Gem in the Ultraverse) in order to acquire
> > them for himself, and failing that, led events
> > along so that the Living Tribunal ruled that
> the
> > Infinity Gems could no longer work in
> conjunction
> > with each other (i.e. another threat to
> Mephisto
> > neutralized).
> >
> > Mephisto is one conniving, manipulative
> > sonuvabitch, ain't he?
> >
> > Mephisto never loses. Everything is going
> > precisely according to his long-range, bigger
> > picture plan. The Age of Mephisto has been
> coming
> > for a long time.
> >
>
>
>
> I'm not arguing that a case can't be made from
> what you're saying, just that the evidence
> presented doesn't support it. The evidence also
> contradicts itself or, at the very least,
> questions its own validity. I quote:
>
> "In addition, Mephisto apparently (my emphasis)
> gained universal power and influence by
> affiliating with a demon race..." etc.
>
> So...are they not sure that he did? Is it
> something they just heard around the water cooler
> 5 minutes before writing the entry or what? When
> YOU say something to that effect, I may still
> independently research it but -- knowing the depth
> of research you put into your character analysis--
> I assume there's something out there that lends
> weight to what you're saying. But if someone works
> for a company (that hasn't rebooted its continuity
> like 20 times in my lifetime) and doesn't know
> whether something happened or not, I have to
> assume that its not considered cannon.

I think it's more a case of Marvel's owning Malibu Comics, but not wanting to wrangle with the legal hassles of paying royalties to the creators of the Ultraverse characters for their use and mention in Marvel Comics, or a more explicit reference to Mephisto's time and activities in the Ultraverse. They bought the publisher, didn't acquire the rights to freely use the characters. Nemesis "from the Ultraverse" was a Marvel creation used in the intercompany crossover and thus is mentionable in Marvel's encyclopedia handbooks. It's the same as retaining the Serpent Crown of Set as a Marvel property after they lost license to the Conan franchise. Marvel added the Serpent Crown of Set to Conan mythos. It was their property to keep after Conan was no longer a licensed "Marvel character." Same with Dire Wraiths re: the lost Rom Spaceknight franchise. Same with Doctor Demonicus and his giant radioactive dinosaur (Godzilla) after Marvel lost the license to do Godzilla stories.

So that "apparently" is not so much a question of what's canon, but what's contractually legal for them to say. Ain't business before pleasure a drag?

I for one believe Dum Dum Dugan used to head up SHIELD's anti-Godzilla unit. I know it, I saw him do it. So the question turns not on canonicity, but what's now real world legal wrangling permissible to say without some artist's schmuck kid coming back years later wanting to sue for something. It's "canon" that Godzilla rampaged across Marvel's United States and was stopped by SHIELD and a bunch of superheroes, Spider-Man included. It's "canon" that the Dire Wraith's greatest enemy is Rom the Galadorian Spaceknight. It's "canon" that Forge once removed Storm's powers with a weapon modeled on Rom's Neutralizer.

And thus, it's "canon" that Mephisto was the chief demon created among the demonic servants of Nemesis.

And so, Mephisto was a demon created to serve Nemesis in the Ultraverse before he was slumming in the Marvel Universe. It's a retcon, but one that disrupts nothing. Mephisto acquired a physical form in the Marvel Universe using the residual evil energies of the Elder Gods and the convenient nightmare visions of the Bible's "Satan" among humans. No contradiction in that, any more than Mephisto crafting a physical form for Blackheart from the lingering evil in a town with a history of murders. Before he did that, he was messing with Zarathos worshippers.

Mephisto gained his power the old fashioned way - by screwing over people.

> There's also two things that makes...no, three
> things that makes Mephisto's claim...literally as
> it came out of his mouth...suspect.
>
> 1. When an omnipotent being...regardless of how
> simple minded it is...destroys something, it
> doesn't reform on its own. Otherwise, its just
> potent.
>
> 2. If what he said is true, then it's true for
> every other hell lord that reformed...which means
> he's not unique, his knowledge or relationship to
> the gems is not special and -- aside from either
> of those -- he existed as nothing for billions of
> years, then reformed a bunch of thousands of years
> ago and had no idea of any of that information
> until the gems were brought together.

My research leads me to believe in a "shattered / splintered Hell-Lord" theory. Mephisto's the main piece of a fragmented entity. Satannish and the other Hell-Lords are also "pieces" of this fragmented entity. I hope to flesh this out further with my extensive Mephisto write-up, but no gestalt of Hell-Lords to form "Satan" for purposes of breeding with the natives ever misses the ingredient to the whole provided by Mephisto.

If "Satan" were the Voltron robot, the Hell-Lords would be the lion robots that form the arms and legs, Mephisto's the bigger one that forms the head and torso. Bad analogy, but I'm out of caffeine. Anyway, no "Satan" without Mephisto, just as there's no gestalt Voltron robot without the torso and head piece.


> 3. Thanos was smiling while he told the story...
>
> and, moving away from those few panels in SS #45
> 4. If HE was one of those demons and they were
> destroyed, how can they work for him now?

They weren't destroyed. They were locked in a dimension called the "Schwarzraum," and freed when Mephisto decieved the Nazi Thule into believing they were an alien master race of some sort... "Space Aryans" if you will, that he could learn secrets from.

> If the story don't fit, you must acquit.
>
> hehe...I'm going to play Mephisto for a sec..."Of
> course I knew there was a seventh infinity gems.
> Its written even in the children's books of occult
> lore: Seven days of creation, lucky number 7...the
> "I Am", hidden in plain sight..."

Heh.

> ...seriously though, that's a nice touch to the
> mythos but its still kind of pointless. Oh...yeah,
> sorry. I'm off on a tangent here...but a seventh
> gem is pointless. If either Mind and Soul don't
> provide mastery of Ego, ego's really not
> necessary. Ego is what controls the gems in the
> first place, so Warlock, Thanos, Nebula...there
> were all the seventh gem. Toss the actual seventh
> in and you get someone that is not you controlling
> you and the other 6 gems...that's just silly...

That's not how they worked. The Ego Gem simply reconstructed Nemesis' form into a Supreme Being.

Think Infinity Gauntlet with its own will, rather than just a cosmic bejeweled Michael Jackson glove any ol' gorilla in a hockey helmet could use. Nemesis was simply the Infinity Gauntlet with its / her own ego...

> ...anyway...everyone knows Sise-neg created the
> universe anyway...and Mordo's the devil...

Nun-uh. T'was Jack Kirby. I saw it in an issue of Fantastic Four.




Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 08:06PM by Dead Sidekick.

Superboy Prime VS King Hyperion

Superboy Prime VS King Hyperion

Now that's a brawl-for all!If I HAD to choose a winner(and not say double K.O.),I'd put my money on King Hyperion.Not taking anything away from Superboy-Prime,But HE just needed about 2-years worth of Therapy.King Hyperion,however,just Did what he did to Rule the World.
Winner:King Hyperion(By a Bloody Nose!)

Superboy Prime. No contest. Even when King Hyperion was fighting the other Hyperions, there was nothing really to suggest that he was more powerful, just alot more ruthless and using his abilities to their full, devestating potential. If Hyperion can do around Un100 damage when he's not holding back (and that's a magnitude of around 100 tons-ish) even Superman would not have any trouble overpowering him. King Hyperion might have the edge in fighting ability but Superboy Prime has way too much (in regards to power) to make it anything but a landslide victory.... Superman pastiche or no.

JLI (line up - Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, Mister Miracle, Guy Gardner, Dr. Fate (Eric and Linda Strauss) and Captain Atom)

vs

Paladin, Goldbug, Scarecrow, Doctor Spectrum (from the squadran sinister), Diablo, and Radioactive Man

The JLI lineup is significantly more powerful and versatile...Hate to do it but I vote them.

Someone on the Palladium forums had an interesting battle royale match-up. The Grandmaster for yet another of his lame sadistic contests acquires the Avengers and Justice League of America and for the JLA copies the mind of Reed Richards into all of them while he copies the mind of Batman into all of the Avengers. His standard 'battle to a win or this world of yours dies' rules. End result is, which group wins?

Myself I see the League Fantastic winning. Reed has experience cooperating with other versions of himself and working with others in general and without trust issues and with Martian Manhunter's powers to link everyone you've a networked mind of Reeds to increase their overall effectiveness. Meanwhile the Bat-Avengers suffers from every Bat-Avengers insisting only he can run things, the Bat Thor quickly reverts to Donald Blake because he's completely unworthy of wielding Mjolnir, and would simply fail to do the team tactics needed to defeat someone of Reed's caliber running the bodies of the JLA.

the Thor point is a good one....I suspect that he would not be the only one who's powers were effected by the mind swap. Dr.Strange and Zantana would be screwed Green Lantern also maybe? Green Arrow would also be at at disadvantage Reed is no Marksman.

Batman has extensive knowledge of the JLA base and of every one of his teamates powers, as proven in the "Tower of Babel" storyline he has already done the math on how to best skin the cat. He would take "his Avengers" to take back his bat cave grab his kryptonite ring and gear up his team with Bat stuff and then and go take down the RLA using some plan he came up with months ago.

Reed is smart but not the sneaky planner Batman is .....nor is he as skilled a combatant. Imagine Sersi, Hercules, Hulk, Red Hulk, She Hulk, Cage, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron Man, MS. Marvel, Ares, just to mention a few... all with his combat moves. Wonder Woman would be at a huge disadvantage with out her combat trained brain.

Nightmask, did it mention the team line ups or was it just anyone who has been on either team? and what universe it was in? For now I am leaning towards the Avengers with the Baman's mind but await some more info before I make a final call is made.

This is what the plotline for the JLA/Avenger crossover should have been.

monkeywrench Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the Thor point is a good one....I suspect that he
> would not be the only one who's powers were
> effected by the mind swap. Dr.Strange and Zantana
> would be screwed Green Lantern also maybe? Green
> Arrow would also be at at disadvantage Reed is no
> Marksman.
>
> Batman has extensive knowledge of the JLA base
> and of every one of his teamates powers, as proven
> in the "Tower of Babel" storyline he has already
> done the math on how to best skin the cat. He
> would take "his Avengers" to take back his bat
> cave grab his kryptonite ring and gear up his team
> with Bat stuff and then and go take down the RLA
> using some plan he came up with months ago.
>
> Reed is smart but not the sneaky planner Batman is
> .....nor is he as skilled a combatant. Imagine
> Sersi, Hercules, Hulk, Red Hulk, She Hulk, Cage,
> Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron Man, MS. Marvel, Ares,
> just to mention a few... all with his combat
> moves. Wonder Woman would be at a huge
> disadvantage with out her combat trained brain.
>
> Nightmask, did it mention the team line ups or was
> it just anyone who has been on either team? and
> what universe it was in? For now I am leaning
> towards the Avengers with the Baman's mind but
> await some more info before I make a final call is
> made.

Here's the specific line-up as cut and pasted from the thread at Palladium:


En Dwi Gast, the Grandmaster of the Universe, has come up with his latest and greatest game:

He has somehow managed to kidnap the premier teams from TWO comics universes, DC and Marvel, the Avengers and The Justice League of America, and pitted them against each other in free-for-all combat for the fate of worlds!!

Only THIS time, he added a special twist of his own.
THIS time, he decided to make use of one of the smartest men in one Comics Universe and pit his mind against that of one of the best Tactical Geniuses in the entire Megaverse.

THIS time, he has cloned and transplanted the mind and consciousness of Reed Richards into the bodies of The Justice League....and he has cloned and transplanted the mind and consciousness of Bruce Wayne into the bodies of The Avengers (temporarily and completely displacing the minds of the originals in the process).



The League Fantastic.
Superman
Aquaman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
The Flash (Barry Allen's power set)
Firestorm
Zatanna
Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)

The Bat-Avengers.
Thor
The Vision
Hulk
Iron Man (current, "extremis" version)
Quicksilver
Ms. Marvel ("Binary" powers and abilities)
Sub-Mariner
Quasar
Wonder Man
Ant-Man
Doctor Strange (current, non-Sorcerer Supreme version)

> This is what the plotline for the JLA/Avenger
> crossover should have been.

I liked the plot for the JLA/Avengers crossover myself, and remember that Batman's mind is in a range of unfamilar bodies so the handicapping is that while Reed knows the Bat's side of things and vise versa they have to figure out how to use the bodies that they're in and some have items that they simply couldn't make use of or would be seriously in trouble figuring out how to use.

It would be a good battle...again the mystics and Thor would most likely be unable to use their powers. I think the manhunter may have trouble keeping form as well
BUT Firestorm with Reed's mind is a very scary combo and could take down anyone..even Supes
. I am going to side with Reed's team.
I also enjoyed the crossover story (Batman and Captain America fight was awesome) but honestly mind clones of Batman and Reed in the bodies of some of the most powerful beings ever with the intent of smashing ..that would be pretty sweet. Who wouldn't rather see that?

monkeywrench Wrote:
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> It would be a good battle...again the mystics and
> Thor would most likely be unable to use their
> powers. I think the manhunter may have trouble
> keeping form as well
> BUT Firestorm with Reed's mind is a very scary
> combo and could take down anyone..even Supes
> . I am going to side with Reed's team.
> I also enjoyed the crossover story (Batman and
> Captain America fight was awesome) but honestly
> mind clones of Batman and Reed in the bodies of
> some of the most powerful beings ever with the
> intent of smashing ..that would be pretty sweet.
> Who wouldn't rather see that?
>
> [3.bp.blogspot.com]
> AAAAAAAABtU/IdZu7T46ZXo/s1600/Avengers_vs_JLA.jpg

Somebody had pointed out what a powerful combination Reed's Mind and Firestorm's powers makes as well. Of course there is also the impact a Reed mind with Superman's powers including his augmented intelligence would be like giving Reed a mega-boost, and Flash's superspeed powers for that version building anything he wanted to from what was available at superspeed. While the entire switch-up suggestion was because 'well DC is so much more powerful it's to make things more fair' it really just hands things to the Reed team. Probably would have been better facing the Teen Titans with Reed's mind off against a Batman-FF.

Ugh I just hate dealing with the fanboys for Batman, the poll for the fight on the Palladium forum is clogged with 'it's Batman!' votes and you know you're dealing with the fanboys when they handwave away Batman's many defeats by completely normal humans like Penguin (seriously, the guy's gimmick is umbrellas) as 'just a temporary setback they never really beat him' and play up Reed's defeats as 'being beaten by people who're all dumber than him' none of whom were normal humans and all of them being far more powerful than Reed. Such is the problem with Wolverine/Batman popularity, people will insist the character can't ever and was never beaten it was all 'part of the plan'.

Really this is the sad downside of putting a normal guy like Batman in the JLA, he had no more business there than Green Arrow. Even Black Canary had more point to being there since she had an actual super-power but otherwise is also really just not suited for it being otherwise just human normal in everything else (albeit well trained). Just leaves you going 'how can this guy who's so incompetent he can't clean up his city from all these human normal opponents ever defeat these physical gods?'.

[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

Nightmask, I think these prove your point. Poor Batman.

I Always Thought Batman was unimpressive.

This old debate based on can a normal but well trained human can stand against a super hero, i guess it boils down to what the person writing the comics wants to do, Rpgs i guess im old fashion and like the small run games, my best win was against scorpion not a stat higher than excellent it was a blast.

Galactus1 Wrote:
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> I Always Thought Batman was unimpressive.

He's good for what he was created for, battling crime at the relatively normal human level and being World's Greatest Detective rather than making him out as Mary Sue 'Greatest at Everything in the Universe' Batman (which was often treated with contempt and hatred for Superman yet Batman is just normal yet treated as even more capable than Pre-Crisis Superman). His character just isn't meant to be running around never failing to defeat physical gods and providing super-strategies to deal with incoming genocidal alien armadas yet being shown in his own titles being knocked out, tied up, and stuffed into death traps by mobsters and freaky looking people whose only abilities are insanity and gimmicks like exploding umbrellas.

I am on The Same Page as You Nightmask Batman is Great for Dealing with Human Criminals.Oh Yeah Your Cracks about exploding Umbrellas is So Damn Funny Love The Sarcasm hahahaha.

...Reed Richards wielding the power of firestorm...that is so awesome it's scary!

...but the OP over at Palladium (IMO) is just playing with everyone...the body/mind swapping distracts from the real question. I have every confidence that everyone on this board, given time, could beat either line up if they controlled the other and none of us are either batman or mr. fantastic. A more telling question would be "who's a better chess player: Bruce or Reed?" Then the contest becomes more concerned with applied intelligence than applied firepower.

...Just my .75c...

...that said, Reed's a better team player and that gives him the edge.

Brotherless_one Wrote:
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> ...Reed Richards wielding the power of
> firestorm...that is so awesome it's scary!
>
> ...but the OP over at Palladium (IMO) is just
> playing with everyone...the body/mind swapping
> distracts from the real question. I have every
> confidence that everyone on this board, given
> time, could beat either line up if they controlled
> the other and none of us are either batman or mr.
> fantastic. A more telling question would be "who's
> a better chess player: Bruce or Reed?" Then the
> contest becomes more concerned with applied
> intelligence than applied firepower.
>
> ...Just my .75c...
>
> ...that said, Reed's a better team player and that
> gives him the edge.

A very valid observation there, and also why I gave it to Reed. Batman in the end really isn't a team player, even when he's on a team he's frequently making plans and doing things on his own without heeding whoever is leading at the time. Now I'll admit when Reed was on the Avengers briefly he did go off and do his own thing rather than follow the leader's orders but not surprising as Reed's used to running things and giving directions (although as we saw in the Secret Wars Reed had no problems following orders and doing as directed by Captain America). Reed most often is shown working fine in a group, Batman is not, and when it's a group of Reeds against a group of Bruces having to work together to succeed I give it to the Reeds.

Here's an interesting match-up of iconic TV super-heroes: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man against the TV series David Bruce Banner, aka The Incredible Hulk. Is this a battle Steve can win, would this be a classic event whereby he fights after mistaking the Hulk as the bad guy and goes down in defeat only to learn later to team up with him, or would Steve simply go down in flames while the Hulk flees once again?

It would not be a quick match and it would be one I would gladly like to see but TV Hulk would beat him down. His far greater strength and healing powers would grant him the advantage.

monkeywrench Wrote:
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> It would not be a quick match and it would be one
> I would gladly like to see but TV Hulk would beat
> him down. His far greater strength and healing
> powers would grant him the advantage.

Well the TV Hulk's healing factor really only operates between changes, he's not doing obvious healing on the fly like what Wolverine's been turned into. When Banner's spine was severed in that car accident it required one complete set of transformations to go from no working legs to getting around with assistance (leg braces and crutches), and another complete transformation to finish repairing him.

While I think the TV Hulk's got the edge and would likely win a lot would depend on area. Steve couldn't defeat the Bionic Sasquatch because not only was it more powerful but he also didn't have anything around to help him improvise. When he fought the first robot on the other hand he was able to improvise weapons from the surroundings to finally win.

I think I remember that episode... but the Hulk was not injured Banner was. When the Hulk his body took a lot of damge and he kept on going. I do agree environment/would be a factor in this battle.

Did you know that the shows producers wanted to make the Hulk red? but Stan Lee talked them out of it. Good thing that never happend. A red Hulk is just insane.

monkeywrench Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I remember that episode... but the Hulk
> was not injured Banner was. When the Hulk his body
> took a lot of damge and he kept on going. I do
> agree environment/would be a factor in this
> battle.

No the Hulk was quite injured, while he briefly moved around he ended up on the ground beating on his useless legs unable to understand why they didn't work. Also remember that the Hulk was VERY mortal, while he was super-strong and had a bit of toughness a well placed rifle shot or bomb would have killed him (as happened to the other Hulk in the two-parter where Banner found the cure but the evil human counterpart of himself ended up destroying it). Being pounded on wasn't such a problem for him since he was after all more massive and people tend to be able to take beatings better than they can take stabbings (which in a sense a bullet does) but he wouldn't have just ignored such things nor heal on the fly.

> Did you know that the shows producers wanted to
> make the Hulk red? but Stan Lee talked them out of
> it. Good thing that never happend. A red Hulk is
> just insane.

I think a Red Hulk actually would have looked wrongit's his iconic color, but hey if they'd made him red in the TV series (which wouldn't have lasted long because of that) maybe we wouldn't have seen that awful red Hulk crap (in any color).

I could have sworn it was as Banner he was hit by a car and not as the Hulk. It was a long time ago my bad.

on the subject (sorta) anyone recall a episode of the Fall Guy -when Lee Major's character, Colt meets the Hulk on a shoot? Funny stuff.

monkeywrench Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could have sworn it was as Banner he was hit by
> a car and not as the Hulk. It was a long time ago
> my bad.

It was Banner that was hit and left paralyzed from the waist down but that carried over to the Hulk when he transformed. It took two transformations (the two contracted transformations per episode) for him to completely regenerate his spinal column (then because he spends his life inexplicably fearing his Hulk nature runs off leaving all the paralyzed people he spent time with still paralyzed when he had the cure for their condition).