That one happened already in an old X-Men comic. As I recall, Wolverine barely won that fight.

I'm in agreement with Nightmask in this one. The other two could not have stood in front of the Hulk in his recent war raged state. Even though at different times in history they have all been show as vastly powerful, I got to go with Golden Man.

Sentry for the win!

It happened recently i think in Wolverine Origins and wolverine cut his arm off

God I miss the old Wolverine... I'll elaborate on the subject's own thread.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 06:39AM by Punstarr.

Batman vs Grey Fox from Metal Gear Solid... I think Bats would have his work cut out for him. They're both stealthy bastiches and are both extremely well versed in combat. What do you all think?

Bat-Man -=VS=- Gray Fox

I think Gray Fox has the upper hand in this match up…. I’m not saying Bat-Man stands ‘Zero’ Chances; but Gray Fox has a great deal of technical and tactical advantages.

In the MGS Games Gray Fox was illustrated as a ‘Guide’ so we didn’t witness his Full Potential. But for anyone who has the Latest and Greatest MGS (Where Rydain is wearing the Same ‘Gray Fox’ Armor) he is pretty damn bad ass.

Thor AND Beta Ray Bill -=VS=- Da Jugga-Not

My table of 3 Players actually played this one a few years ago… And to our surprise Juggy Won.

So we rotated Characters… And Juggy won again..

To our dismay, we rotate Characters Again…. And Juggy won a 3rd time.

The only way we could deal with Juggy was ‘Launch’ his azz into Space.

"As far as the proposed 3-way goes, Sentry might have a slight edge IF he can defeat Gladiator's psionic-reflection power, although considering how inconsistent all three's powers have been presented it's problematic deciding who'd win in a battle that the variables allowed for all three to fight at his peak power and skill. Since each faux-Superman that Marvel's introduced has been more powerful than the last though (remember escalating power levels and creep is the thing for comics) since Sentry came last in the chain he's likely the most powerful of the three. Gladiator and Hyperion wouldn't have stood a chance against the overpowered Hulk during WWH yet Sentry met him on equal footing so I'd give the win in the end to Sentry."

Haven't read all the posts yet Nightmask, but I like this argument. I still differ in opinion, if your case in point is the stronger person comes later [if true, then cannot be legitimate unless made universal] then Sabretooth should own Wolvie! I agree that Venom owns Spidey, but it's only sheer speed and experience that grant Pete a win by the narrowest margins! I however, pick Gladiator, though he may be reduced to a superman knock off, he is in fact [I argue] far more! The only thing they share is similar power abilities and colors in their costume/clothing. This is not enought to reduce the character's integrity as it was not for Shazam and I feel it to be so for Supreme as well. Likeness is the heart of hero imagery! Detective heroes wear suits and gloves and hats! Flying heroes wear capes and spandex! Bug heroes have big eyes in the costumes/clothing.....I mean hellooo?![not meant towards you] Positoning the character is everything however![their reason for existing/rapport with the continuity] Why he is there is what establishes the character's integrity, not their powers or look. I mean, most fast heroes have lightning on their clothing cause it represents their speed ability. And anyone, would put it on their costume or at least consider it in the top two if speed was their ability! It's natural, like legends passed down in different cultures that seem the same though the societies that spawned them are different!

So my point: Sentry and Hyperion are suspect. Sentry.....what is he other than a superman clone?! I am certain some people like him, but he was thrown in and made a main charcter by some real questionable means! He doesn't have a place in Marvel other than his reason for being there. If you don't know the story...read up! That's cause for his illegitmacy....period. But his acts in WWH, no surprise there.....yet with full respect to Gladiator how can you say he would have done less? Gladiator has already been "established" to be capable of far more than Hyperion! Though he was meant to be a resident superman of Marvel in an alternate universe, he was never as powerful as superman and definately not to the degree of pre-crisis superman! If you can play up Sentry with no history of accomplishments that establish him as superior to Gladiator, then do you also accept the erroneous retcons and bad writting that persist in Marvel books today? So is Magneto Xorn; is he dead? Did Squirrel Girl officially defeat Thanos? Are we to accept that Cable never had a bionic arm, rather it was always the Techno-virus kept under control by his vast psionic powers?

By all means, Hyperion-Gladiator-Sentry is a interesting tussle. But including all the feats I have seen [flying in hyperspace unaided, surviving a nova level explosion, whiping the floor with the FF in minutes, lifting the Baxter building, psionicly attacking Sue Storm, and surviving & matching Supreme blow for blow] and excluding all the ones that are inconsistent or do not fit continuity, it appears to me that Gladiator is the victor! By the way Nightmask, good point on mentioning his psionic abilities....I believe they are related to his strength capacity.

Actually the Wolverine/Sabertooth comparison is inaccurate as Sabertooth doesn't qualify as the latest knockoff/reproduction/etc. of Wolverine, his classifcation is nemesis so has powers that makes him a challenge for Logan. As a nemesis he could have had a number of powers, including ones diametically opposed to Wolverine's. Instead he's got similar powers and they are instead shown to differ primarily in morality with Wolverine having a code with regards to who he considers acceptable to kill (much like Punisher) whereas Sabertooth just loves killing and murders indescriminately. That girl (X-23 or whatever she's tagged) is more along the lines of a legacy knockoff being a partial clone of Wolverine.

With regards to Hyperion you can't really argue that he isn't even as powerful as Superman now or pre-crisis Superman as he was scaled down to fit in the heavy-hitter range that Marvel operates at. Pre-crisis Superman in particular was an entity level character rivaling Celestials in power, impossible to introduce in Marvel terms and be believable (and pretty unbelievable even in DC terms). For Marvel he's a rival for the top-tier super-beings like Thor and the Silver Surfer (although they likely have an edge) before the power creep was too pronounced at Marvel and everyone became Omega Class superbeings or at least the potential for it.

Gladiator on the other hand seems to run at least partly on confidence so often boasts about his accomplishments and likely exaggerates to a degree in the process to keep himself at peak power and to intimidate opponents. He's also suffered huge swings in power representations (Right, Gambit and Deathbird can lay a smack-down on Gladiator, suuuuure) but I do agree he's incredibly powerful, I just think when Marvel did the awful retcon to slap Sentry into Marvel Continuity he was intentionally set well above the levels Gladiator operates at. Plus as far as surviving a nova or super-nova goes he has specific invulnerabilities that'd work against radiation (other than a specific unspecified type) and plasma attacks related to such an event but considerably less protection against more conventional attacks (yes it does sound rediculous but plenty of characters are like that).

Since Sentry was build to be absurdly powerful (then saddled with crippling mental problems by writers with no other idea how to explain why this god that they just introduced wasn't stopping everything and saving the world before everyone else even got up and had breakfast) and to smack people around with rediculous levels of power. That doesn't mean he can't be beaten, in a three-way, perhaps motivated by each needing a particular item Gladiator and Hyperion would team-up to take him down and then finish each other off, ending up in a three-way tie perhaps by the time that they're done.

In regards to Hyperion..there has most definitely been a reduction in power levels over the years. In the very first appearance of Hyperion (actually his evil counterpart, but created to be his "twin" in power level), Hyperion shrugs off a blow from Thor's hammer like it was nothing and had the upper hand over Thor, until Thor pulled out a "trick' (which he had never done before and has never done since) with his hammer to cause Hyperion to shrink in size and encase him in a crystal sphere (I really hate when writers come up with these one time plot devices where a character pulls out some previously unknown power, to allow a character to win a fight, and this "power" has no basis on what a characters other powers are, not to mention how many times in the past when the character was on the ropes could he have used that power to win a fight...it was years later "revealed" (i.e retconned) that it was the evil Hyperions artificial natue which allowed this to happen, but at the time it was published this was not the intention, it was implied that this was what Thor meant to do and was one of his powers.)

What about

Thor OR Beta Ray Bill -=VS=- Da Jugga-Not

Jugg, Jugg, Jugg, Jugg……



I know 2 things that will Stop Jugga-Not….

A big giant Doggie Poo in his Path…..

OR

A Hot-Bomb-Shell Blonde

The first comic I ever bought was Thor #411, [www.comicvine.com] during the Acts of Vengeance story arc. So I'm just a shade on the tainted side when I puff my chest out, hold my head high and say:

Thor for the win!

Well Nightmask, I think this is a reduction- "Actually the Wolverine/Sabertooth comparison is inaccurate as Sabertooth doesn't qualify as the latest knockoff/reproduction/etc. of Wolverine, his classifcation is nemesis so has powers that makes him a challenge for Logan. As a nemesis he could have had a number of powers, including ones diametically opposed to Wolverine's. Instead he's got similar powers and they are instead shown to differ primarily in morality with Wolverine having a code with regards to who he considers acceptable to kill (much like Punisher) whereas Sabertooth just loves killing and murders indescriminately. That girl (X-23 or whatever she's tagged) is more along the lines of a legacy knockoff being a partial clone of Wolverine."

It's somewhat unfairly presented to prove your point! I am not refuting the validity of the claims here, but they unfairly reduce the rivalry of the two to be exclusive to what you said above. It is a more modern representation of their conflict. In the past many felt that Sabretooth was a knock off! And in fact, to make them more alike, the comics had their histories crossover many times and even imply that Sabretooth was Wolvie's father! That classic father son opposition like Luke and Vader, Arthur and Mordred, Darkseid and Orion, Nick and Jacob, where the son is always trying to escape his father's legacy or rise above his father's fate! Different writers took it into different directions or squashed it all together. Doesn't mean it isn't just as valid! In fact they also made the two alike in powers, as they gave Wolvie all of Sabretooths extra senses and vice-versa as well as adding to both a boosted healing factor![recently Wolvie gets bone claws to trump Sabretooth's; who's claws were 1st to be only on his gloves]

HW-interesting points! I wonder if magic allows one to use such plot devices? I also wonder if the origin of Hyperion is reason enough to explain his defeat[against Thor's magic]? I think I remember his origins being in some tiny-microverse?

To flog a dead horse one last time, I think all you say on the three-way is not entirely undebatable. I do think there is reason, well, more reason to find Hyperion suspect [as a match] as he has been in past stories that I find follow continuity decently.[although not perfectly as HW noted] That knocks him out of contention for me as Gladiator has been shown much more powerful.[in continuity] Sentry is all you say, but only till WWH did we see it! I do not find this out of Gladiator's range of performance at all, in fact "I think it should've been him!" But I will accept Hyperion and Gladiator's introduction because it follows a continuity that is independant of any retcon to establish their relevance to the MU continuum. I guess we are not really talking probablity here, instead it seems to be about relevance...... Hmmm.

Sabertooth was less of a knock-off before they decided he had to get Adamantium for his bones as well (including demonstrating retractable claws of adamantium from his fingers that are impossibly long just because it looks cool), but even if you accept the implied father/son dynamic it wouldn't make Sabertooth a 'newer version/homage' of Wolverine like Hyperion, Gladiator, and Sentry are relative to Superman. Such characters are generally heroic if the original is heroic and villainous if the original is a villain. Wolverine's on the heroic side but Sabertooth is on the villain side. Even Supreme, for all his arrogance and pride is on the heroic side (although not being someone who rejects all leifeld creation's out of hand I don't see Supreme as some cheap knock-off of Superman but the version that replaced him certainly was). The dynamic between Wolverine and Sabertooth just isn't the same as what we have with regards to Gladiator and the others relative to Superman. Knock-off/homage/parody characters also tend to be cross-company things rather than in-company productions (like Lobo being a parody of Wolverine).

Hyperion is supposedly from a microverse destroyed by atomic tests on the Earth plane or at least was introduced like that, much later they decided to retcon him as a member of the Eternal race from his earth (even though there's never been any example of Celestial involvement in his earth and we've minimal information as to how parallel his earth is to Earth-616 continuity so there may not even be Celestials or a Galactus in his reality). They far more recently with the latest stuff with Thunderbolts and the Wellsping brought forth yet another Hyperion true to that origin in a Microverse and brought to earth-616 continuity after its destruction, although made him an easy wimp to beat just by a little radiation exposure whipped up by the Radioactive Man.

The original (Squadron Sinister) Hyperion that I described above was originaly presented as being from a microverse in parallel with ours. Later the Squadron Supreme's heroic Hyperion was introduced with an origin similar to Superman, (worked as a reporter, raised by adoptive Earth parents, etc.). Then later during a conflict between the two Hyperions it was revealed that the villainous Hyperion (who died in this battle) was actually a construct of the Grandmaster who had patterned him after the heroic Hyperion, whom he had encountered previously, and was given false memories. Later still during a stay on Earth 616, an encounter between the "good" Hyperion and Earth 616's Makkari, Makkari sensed similarities between them and realized that Hyperion was an Eternal, thus revealing HIS true origin that he had never actually known.

Although the Celestials have not been depicted in the Squadron's universe, it is reasonable to assume that they have had a presence there. It is known that Utopia Isle, where Power Princess is from, was her worlds version of the Inhumans. On Earth 616 the inspiration for the Kree developing early humans into the Inhuman race was their encounter with members of the Eternal and Deviant races and realizing humanities capacity to mutate, inspiring them to attempt to do so themselves. Also, the Skrull race on the Squadron's Earth are shapechangers just as they are on Earth 616. In the Earth 616 universe, it has been revealed that the shapechanging Skrulls are the Deviant form of the original race that existed eons ago and were experimented upon by the Celestials in it's races pre-history. Unlike on Earth in which the initially dominant Deviant race was eventually mostly superseded by standard humans, and to a lesser extent the Eternals, during the Great Cataclysm before the Hyborian age, in the Skrull empire the Deviant form of the Skrull race ended up being the dominant form, most likely wiping out the other two races, since Skrullian Eternals and the race that they originated from have never been depicted.

Punstarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That one happened already in an old X-Men comic.
> As I recall, Wolverine barely won that fight.

Wolverine -=VS=- Silver Samurai. I recall that issue as well. Both got in good shots. The samurai got in a dangerous shot when his sword landed on Wolverine's spine area. OUCH. But Wolverine won a close one in the end.

Semantics semantics.......Nightmask. I wasn't arguing for "my" position [wolvie & sabretooth] as much as I was arguing "a" positon. Yeah, I know it didn't come off that way, but I noticed something you seldom do....ask, "Is that what you meant?" Even if I were to agree that what you say is fact, it doesn't speak to all the facts, as much we both said is given to interpretation. Yet, many times in Marvel's past have characters been taken as knock-offs. For me, a parody has more dignity than a knock off cause the intent is as you say to pay some homage if even in making fun of it. A knock off to me is a cheaply inspired imitation due to a creators extreme lack of imagination and originality! I believe Sentry and Hyperion fall into this category. I give Hyperion a pass cause he was given a decent origin & intended to be a homage to superman either in villain or hero form. It doesn't matter to me. Only Sentry stands out in that he has no such origins except to be that "A version of superman in the Marvel Universe." Disgusting if you ask me, yet if he had a decent story introduction like Gladiator or Hyperion I would concede. Instead the very story of his being there is a "retcon." Obviously we cannot do away with the retcon, but it is used well when making up for errors that were unintended or establishing a current storyline so that it does not disrupt continuity. I believe his storyline is more of a plot device and all of which are evidence of poor writing! Personally I am biased against him, and have no problems saying so. I reject any claims as to his credibilty and that is where I stand.

Well how often does anyone ask 'is that what you meant?'? We all tend to go by how we read something as being what someone meant unless it seems to contradict what we expect from someone or the text seems muddled so we ask for clarification. So 'Did you really mean it this way?' doesn't get asked very often even if sometimes it should be.

I don't have problems with that interpretation of knock-offs; they're rarely able to be equal or better than what they're a replica of. Unfortunately though since people like to see patterns where they aren't if they can label something a knock-off even if it isn't a character can suffer that label unfairly and not get to grow in its own right.

With regards to Sentry you have to admit that they did have a novel way of introducing him, although DC already used a similar idea years before that when they retconned in a member of the Justice League with powers similar to Magneto who on one of the first missions with the JLA the opponent that they fought the battle caused a reality revision so that while he was trapped in another reality it was as if he'd never existed in the DC continuity. So when he did finally come back no one even knew he'd existed, including his friends in the JLA. Sentry may have let them have some fun releasing comics that has flashbacks done in classic style from the beginnings of comics (particularly the Kirby style) but Sentry himself is a poorly done-up character too powerful for Marvel Earth. Most characters like that (Futurian and Alpha the Ultimate Mutant for example) simply leave Earth to explain why they aren't around to fix everything; Sentry to keep him around they slapped a rediculous array of mental issues onto that weren't even evident during his original introduction or during his reintroduction.

i think the mental issues helped the character. For me when he first came out i was pissed that marvel was just trying to do Superman. I think by giving him the mental issues they helped give him an identity instead of just being another superman. I also like that he got his powers not because he wanted superpowers or to help better mankind but because he was a junkie that wanted to get high and thought the secret formula would get him high.
No matter how you look at it he is still a superman, but at least he is a flawed superman, and the mental issues give the writers a plausable way he can be beat. One of the things i hte about superman is that he is to perfect, and at times writers have to overlook some of his powers to give some characters a chance against him.Take his hyperspeed for example while not as fast as the flash he is still one of the faster characters in the DC universe. combine that with his super strength he should be able to hit and KO a character like Batman before Batman even knows whats going on, but time and time again we have seen Batman dodge punches from Superman. Or Lex will open a lead box with kryptonite, when Superman should be able to be long gone before Lex even opens it. At least with Sentry a character like Batman or Lex could realisticly beat Sentry by playing with his head

As usual Nightmask, you come back in rare form! Always on the up and up! Excelsior!

hey just wanna know your guy's opinion are on this, plus I think Ryu would pistol whip Jackie

Have they ever clashed?

I don't think the two groups have ever clashed, although there have been the occasional individual differences, like the problems resulting from Quicksilver's troubled marriage to Crystal and the birth of their seemingly normal human daughter. Otherwise the Inhumans have generally been dealt with by the FF or the Avengers (which is odd considering the Inhumans could be seen as the first dispossessed and ostracized mutants so should be high on Magneto's list to recruit or at least ensure the protection of).

The original X-men delt with the Inhumans when they were X-Factor and Apokolypse and his Dark Riders invaded the Blue Area of the Moon. It was the story that lead to Cyclops baby being infected and being sent into the future only to later come back as Cable

Good Match here might last a Few Rounds,Nimrod with powers to counter and Destroy neary any Threat.The Surfer with enhanced Power Cosmic the Surfer takes this one.Probaley not easily but Nimrod has never Faced a Herald of Galactus before,Maybe giving Time he could analize the the Surfers power and Come up with a Strategy to Beat Him.

Personally, I think the Surfer is on a whole different level than Nimrod. This fight lasts long enough for the Surfer to realize his foe is not alive to totally cut lose and atomize Nimmy... if that doesn't work, he can turn him into a Kewpie.

In the interest of keeping forum clutter to a minimum, please post all versus topics in the Battle Royal Thread.

Thank you.

Forum Clutter

So which truly wins out in a battle of the utlimate smackdown, the wielder of the Starbrand of he who possesses the Infinity Gauntlet? I think Starbrand since even the Living Tribunal respects its power yet doesn't seem too concerned about the Gauntlet.

I would still place the Infinity Gauntlet as above the Starbrand. The IG has been displayed as FAR more powerful, as when Thanos eliminated half of the living creatures in the universe with a mere thought and the Starbrand, although vastly powerful, has not been shown to be anywhere near that level of power. When the Living Tribunal cut the Starbrand off from interaction with the rest of Marvel Universe Multiverse, he declared that it was to prevent it from "infecting" anymore of the universe, almost as if one could look at it as being a virus or invader that needed to be quarantined or immunized against. My take was more that it was a power source that was so utterly alien to the Marvel Universe Multiverse (the group of related Universes that Earth 616 is apart of, whereas the New Universe was a part of the larger OmniVerse, in which universes of an unrelated nature or origin existed) that it needed to be excised from it simply since it would upset the naturally established balance of power in that Universe. Basically it tipped the scales in the Universe to far one way or another depending on who the wielder was. The IG despite, being more powerful was part of the Marvel Multiverse (as indeed according to it's origin, the being who the Infinty Gems were once a part of, actually created the Multiverse) so it's interaction was a natural act despite the extreme levels of power that it worked on. The New Universes origin was seperate and had absolutely nothing to do with this being and thus the power of the Starbrand that arrived in the Marvel Multiverse was an unnatural and alien invader.

According to physics matter and energy cannot be destroyed and the sum total of all matter and energy in the universe today is the same as what it was when the universe was nothing more than an infinitely small singularity that exploded in the big bang. Matter and energy can change it's form form one to the other, but when both matter and energy are totaled it's the same today as it was at the beginning of time. The Starbrand was a source of energy outside of the creation of the Marvel Multiverse and was created by a creation event that was unrelated to the Marvel Universes creation, so in effect it's arrival from the New Universe essentially acheived the impossible by suddenly "creating" a higher total sum of power than was initially present during the creation of the MU.